Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Which would go farther? (Fluflu/ weight)

Messages posted to thread:
Birdy 13-Mar-18
George D. Stout 13-Mar-18
Rick Barbee 13-Mar-18
Birdy 13-Mar-18
GF 13-Mar-18
GF 13-Mar-18
George D. Stout 13-Mar-18
Rick Barbee 13-Mar-18
timex 13-Mar-18
Shawn 13-Mar-18
GF 13-Mar-18
Elderly OCR 13-Mar-18
Birdy 13-Mar-18
Birdy 13-Mar-18
2 bears 13-Mar-18
GF 13-Mar-18
JusPassin 13-Mar-18
Mpdh 13-Mar-18
Dan In MI 13-Mar-18
BSBD 13-Mar-18
Rick Barbee 13-Mar-18
Dan In MI 13-Mar-18
Rick Barbee 13-Mar-18
badger 13-Mar-18
oldgoat 13-Mar-18
mgerard 13-Mar-18
Bob Rowlands 13-Mar-18
hawkeye in PA 13-Mar-18
Bob Rowlands 13-Mar-18
Longtrad 13-Mar-18
Longtrad 13-Mar-18
GF 13-Mar-18
fdp 13-Mar-18
Bowmania 14-Mar-18
GF 14-Mar-18
RonG 14-Mar-18
JusPassin 14-Mar-18
BSBD 14-Mar-18
Styksnstryngs 14-Mar-18
The Whittler 14-Mar-18
Longtrad 14-Mar-18
GF 15-Mar-18
From: Birdy
Date: 13-Mar-18




Ok so this question is about flu flu arrows of different weight and which one would travel the farthest distance

So you have a 50# bow and 3 perfectly tuned arrows

Arrow A weighs 400 grains and is 8gpp Arrow B weighs 500 grains and is 10gpp Arrow C weighs 600 grains and is 12gpp

Which arrow would travel the farthest distance with big fluflu fletchings?

What about with a normal 3x4" parabolic fletch?

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-Mar-18




Go try it and let us know. Anything can happen on paper.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 13-Mar-18




My money is on "B", but they'll all be fairly close.

I'm a 9 - 10 gpp guy with reason.

The 8 gpp arrow will shoot close to the 10, but it's launch speed to weight will not overcome the drag as well as the 10.

At 10 gpp, the weight of the arrow will somewhat overcome the drag, even though launching at a lower speed.

At 12 gpp, it will overcome drag even more, than the 8 or 10, BUT due to the even lower launch speed, it will wind up being about equal to that of the 8 for distance.

Mr. Fred Bear got it right. I'm done trying to argue with him. 8^)

Rick

From: Birdy
Date: 13-Mar-18




I'd love to but I don't have the 3 tuned arrows in those weights, at least not yet . Just for fun, what is your "on paper" opinion George?

From: GF
Date: 13-Mar-18




Heavier will win out.

Drag increases exponentially with velocity and the lightest shaft has the least inertia with which to overcome the drag.

Imagine that you dropped all 3 from a bridge: all 3 would accelerate up to its Terminal Velocity, but that velocity will be highest for the heaviest one. So right off the bat, the brakes are applied hardest to the lightest shaft, and they stay on until the velocity has dropped below the minimum for the heavier ones.

And FWIW, "perfect tuning" is irrelevant when it comes to flu- flus, because they straighten out almost immediately no matter what you do.

From: GF
Date: 13-Mar-18




BTW - I'm betting on Terminal Velocity as the determining factor because we're flight-shooting here, and that allows time for things to slow down as much as they're going to....

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-Mar-18




Initial velocity plays a role as well; how far is the initial punch sending the arrow. If I had to guess, I would pick B. Identical launch angle, release, etc., is a dynamic to be dealt with though if not machine shot.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 13-Mar-18




The thing is:

Launch speed, Drag, and other aerodynamics other than drag all come into play, especially for distance shooting.

For flight/distance shooting, everyone goes for the lightest weight arrow, and the smallest fletching allowed by the rules.

For my everyday shooting - I love "Happy Mediums". 8^)

Rick

From: timex
Date: 13-Mar-18




I'm going with b just a guess

From: Shawn
Date: 13-Mar-18




I am going with A as the launch speed will overcome the other factors. Shawn

From: GF
Date: 13-Mar-18




OK, so thus far we've 1 vote for the Tortoise, 1 for the Hare, and the majority playing it safe. Somebody bring a scale and we'll see if we can settle this one at the Cos Cob shoot coming up.

Everybody's welcome to BYOFF, too... I can cobble 3 different weights together if I can just get my hands on the full-height fletchings....

I will say that with a standard fletching... it depends on the size of the fletching and the amount of helical, but if we have a 4" minimum in place and add some helical, probably the 9 will win out.

Won't be able to test that at Cos Cob, but I'm guessing that we can test the flu-flus from an 85 or 110 yard mark and not lose any over the crest of the hill...

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 13-Mar-18




Nothing like designing an arrow to not go far and then trying to make it go far. At least this problem can be solved without causing TP.

Gotta Love the leatherwall.

From: Birdy
Date: 13-Mar-18




it's still the same process if you change the question to "which arrow will travel the least distance?"....

From: Birdy
Date: 13-Mar-18




it's still the same process if you change the question to "which arrow will travel the least distance?"....

From: 2 bears
Date: 13-Mar-18




Much to technical for me. All I know is I don't have to walk so far to retrieve the flu-flu's Much more fun and visual for aerial targets.>>>----> Ken

From: GF
Date: 13-Mar-18




In fairness, it’s not entirely academic… As anyone knows who has ever missed a shot on a flying bird... and then has had to go retrieve his arrow...

Maybe not so big a deal in the flat-lands, but if your arrow sails off the edge of the Mesa, that can turn into an expensive deal....

From: JusPassin Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-Mar-18




If they have the same drag factor, then which ever one leaves the bow fastest.

From: Mpdh
Date: 13-Mar-18




When the arrows are dropped, they all start at the same speed.

MP

From: Dan In MI
Date: 13-Mar-18




I'll say C.

I did a similar experiment years ago. Only I just changed tip weight. Heaviest tips went furthest. Using just a broadhead adapter for a tip the darn thing s barely went down range.

From: BSBD
Date: 13-Mar-18




I’ve done similar experiments also and the heavier arrow flies further within reason. Of course a 2000 grain arrow won’t fly very far no matter the fletch.

Dropping 3 arrows from a bridge has zero relevance in this experiment.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 13-Mar-18




If the heavier arrow will go farther with flu flu's, then it would also go farther with any fletching.

My question then is:

Why then do flight shooters not go with heavier arrows to achieve longer distances?

They don't, so why?

Rick

From: Dan In MI
Date: 13-Mar-18




Apples and oranges Rick. You need weight to over come the excessive drag.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 13-Mar-18




Dan, I agree with that completely, but still think the 10 gpp is the happy medium to achieve the longest distance.

I know my penetration tests show me a 10 gpp will out penetrate a 12 gpp from the same bow, so I just can't help thinking it will shoot farther also.

I haven't done this particular test, but I may have to rig up some arrows, and go shoot them to see.

I wish someone else would do it on video, and save me the trouble. :-)

Rick

From: badger
Date: 13-Mar-18




I would guess C because of the better ratio of weight to drag.

From: oldgoat
Date: 13-Mar-18




I say A

From: mgerard Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-Mar-18




Which one has the turbulator?

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 13-Mar-18




I've done my own version of this test. The heaviest arrow will fly the farthest.

From: hawkeye in PA
Date: 13-Mar-18




B with a fifty pound bow, up the bow to sixtyfive pounds and I'll go with C. This is with flu-flu feathers.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 13-Mar-18




It's a law of physics thatthe heavier the object, the more resistant it is to slowing down once accelerated. That's why a 16" naval shell will fly 22 miles where an 8" shell can't fly anywhere near the same distance, even though the velocity of each is about the same at firing.

Arrows are no different. You can fluflu the crap out of a heavy hickory arrow and it just doesn't want to slow down. I've done this test. You just can't turn hickory into a flu flu. You CAN turn a cedar into a fluflu. It's simple physics.

From: Longtrad
Date: 13-Mar-18




I think the heaviest arrow will go the farthest and the lightest one will go the least distance.

I think the opposite would be true if using normal 4" paras

From: Longtrad
Date: 13-Mar-18




It's too dark to shoot right now but I will rig up some fluflus tonight, hopefully I will get off work in time to test them tomorrow.

From: GF
Date: 13-Mar-18




Go for it, Bud!

Having established that my lone Entrada 600 will bare-shaft right in with a 1916, I think l should flu-flu it and a 1916 (both at 28”). Maybe swap the point on the Entrada for a 100 and run a 125 on the 1916 as usual. And then I have one 2020 at 28 3/4” which I could load with at least a 145 up front... how’m I doing for the all-up weights of these?

From: fdp
Date: 13-Mar-18




I go with C as well. The heavier physical weight will help to overcome the parachute affect of the flu flu fletch.

The lighter arrow will fly the shortest distance simply because (with the same size fletching) the lighter arrow doesn't have a high enough sectional density to overcome the fletching.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 14-Mar-18




GF is correct of course, but something he forgot to mention is that the heaviest arrow is getting more energy out of the bow. So in comparison, how could the light arrow with less energy go further.

THe real question here is that the HEAVIEST arrow will go so much further that it will land in the forest. WILL THE SHOOTER HEAR IT LAND?

Bowmania

From: GF
Date: 14-Mar-18




"Dropping 3 arrows from a bridge has zero relevance in this experiment."

Kindly explain how the terminal velocity of an object has no bearing on how far it can be propelled by a finite amount of force.

If need be, I'll even send you one of my practice/wiffle golf balls and a regular golf ball so that you can demonstrate...

Todd - we'll find out in April!

From: RonG
Date: 14-Mar-18




Elderly OCR........Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha! Who cares as long as you know how to shoot it and hit what you are shooting at.

From: JusPassin Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 14-Mar-18




GF, the arrows dropped from a bridge continue to be accelerated until they hit the ground.

From the bow acceleration ceases the instant the string leaves the nock.

From: BSBD
Date: 14-Mar-18




GF you might not ever understand.

A 4000 grain arrow with the same mass as a 400 grain arrow will absolutely achieve a higher terminal velocity when dropped from a bridge than the 400 grain arrow although it will take about 10 seconds to reach terminal.

Arrows shot from a bow will never reach terminal velocity. Try shooting your 400 grain arrow against a stick of rebar and tell me which one goes farther.

In my experience a moderately heavier arrow (10-12 grains gpp) with flu flu fletch flies farther than a lighter arrow. I’m smart enough to know a 20+ gpp arrow will not fly farther than a 400 grain arrow.

Keep your golf balls and wiffle balls to yourself as they also have zero relevance to this experiment.

From: Styksnstryngs
Date: 14-Mar-18




That would depend on momentum, the arrow recipe with the greatest momentum would be least effected by the increase in drag.

From: The Whittler
Date: 14-Mar-18




As been mentioned with flight shooting. It would stand to reason if heavy arrows shot farther why use light arrows.

From: Longtrad
Date: 14-Mar-18




I shot 2 different fluflu arrows twice this morning so take this with a grain of salt

I shot a 505 grain arrow and a 635 grain arrow out of my Pika 51@28 (my draw length is 27" so around 49#)

the 505 grain arrow went a few feet farther on both shots.

From: GF
Date: 15-Mar-18




BS - you’re right. I never WILL understand any explanation that starts off with this gem:

“A 4000 grain arrow with the same mass as a 400 grain arrow...”

Either you misspoke and are now having a good chuckle at yourself... or you have no clue why that is so flippin’ funny..... in which case, far be it from me to argue your logic. Not saying I agree, just sometimes you have to realize when you’re talking to the wrong end of that Mule.

Whittler: Apples and Rutabagas.

In flight shooting, the trick is to get that arrow as far down-range as possible before it stops gaining altitude, so speed trumps virtually all else. There, fletchings are kept to the bare minimum so as to eliminate drag. I’ve even read accounts of flight shooters using razor blades in place of vanes, but couldn’t tell you if there is any truth to that. Point being, Speed is King; Drag is The Enemy. So with a standard 3X4” fletching, the 8 GPP arrow will almost certainly win out.

On the other hand.... Flu-flus are all about Drag. How far they will fly depends on the individual arrow’s launch speed and its ability to conserve that velocity by overcoming the drag.

So.... Back to the original question of 400 (8GPP) vs. 600 (12 GPP)...

I plugged some numbers into Stu’s calculator.

Assuming a #50@28” Howatt Hunter (FF string) drawn to 28”, the 400 grain arrow should come off the bow at 208.5 FPS with 38.5 FPE and Momentum at .37 slugs.

600 should get 170.2 FPS with .45 slugs. Interestingly enough, KE was unchanged.

So the heavier arrow gives up 18% in velocity, which is a Big Deal in an event where velocity is the limiting factor in performance... BUT NOW that the limiting factor is the ability to overcome an intentionally excessive amount of drag... a 22% change in Momentum is a Bigger Deal.

Recall that drag increases EXPONENTIALLY with velocity, so the lighter arrow will be facing vastly higher drag with a noticeably reduced ability to overcome it. So in an event where Drag Kills and Speed is King, the arrow that is more able to overcome drag and which will shed velocity more slowly is your likely winner....

But the really odd thing....

I plugged in an 800 grain arrow, and anybody wanna guess??? Only 150 FPS, but .53 slugs (44% higher than the 400 grainer) and 39.9 FPE, so 4% more KE right off the bow and nearly half again as much momentum in exchange for a 28% loss in velocity.

At some (extremely high) GPP, a bow is going to have just enough Umph to drop an arrow onto your front foot, if you’re not careful. I don’t think that’ll win any flight competitions, flu-flu or otherwise. But 12 GPP is not beyond the bounds of reason... so ultimately it comes down to the fletchings.

Sounds like Longtrad has determined that 10 GPP will out-shoot 13.... but again... depends on the fletch. A 6-fletch with gobs o’ helical vs 4-fletch straight will likely shift the curve...





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