Rick you are the man. I have no idea how you make and post the movies,the titles,sounds and graphs. Great job. I sure wish you would do another with 5" feathers and helix for our friend GS. Thanks a bunch. I test every thing like you do but have no idea how to present it. >>>----> Ken
Wow that's cool. How about 5 inchers? What about slight offset vs lots of helical? I just made up a batch with 5" shields and as much helical as I could crank out of my jig and man they are noisy! Might try a few with slight offset tonight and see if there is much difference.
Vanes are smooth with no friction (rough) side like feathers so it's a given they should be quieter. The real question is what does fletch noise do to an animal you are shooting at. In my experience, nothing...even big feathers.
I have a video I will post that has the camera/audio 18" above the impact point of the arrow. Tell me what you can hear before the arrow hits the target. I'm far enough away that you can't here the bow at all, only what noise precedes impact of the arrow. Just for more schnits and giggles.
Nothing against vanes Mr. Rick, I shot them for awhile In the late 70's, mostly with my Jennings compound...which I shot instinctive just like may recurve. They have to be quieter...nothing to make noise. Maybe put some powdered sedative in those feeders. ;^)
Thanks Rick. And George and others for a good and reasonable discussion. It seems the talk goes around in a circle and often concludes with what we thought we already knew or suspected back in the day.
That's awesome to have the sound levels measured... though it's terribly disappointing to hear that shields are the loudest, because I like the way they look so much better...
I wonder if it's safe to assume that drag is proportional to noise... & vice-versa...
And one observation, though this may be just me. But when I watch the video, I don't hear the sound until the shadow of the arrow is past the shadow of the camera. Probably has a LOT to do with the shutter speed and frames/second, I know....
And you do hear some Doppler effect at low-speed...
But it sounds that at the very least, the Hollywood Hiss of an in-bound arrow just ain't there. Certainly didn't notice it in George's video at full speed...
I copied my response from the post about feather size related to broadhead stabilization. The thread got side tracked a little toward feather noise related to shape. Here's my take on it.
I don't doubt that larger feathers make more noise than smaller feathers. I think height, shape and condition, maybe even amount of spiral, make more difference than length in noise generation. And, of course, all those things affect speed.
Regardless, for hunting, feather noise is pretty much irrelevant and doesn't really need to be part of the equation/consideration in selecting feather size, etc.
Sure, if you stand to the side, you can hear feather noise as the arrow passes, and some are louder than others. However, if you were to stand almost at the target (even behind the target, if safe), by the time you hear feather noise, it's too late to do anything about it. By the time you hear it, the arrow is a split second from striking the target.
George has demonstrated this repeatedly with his shooting from 50 plus yards into a bale with the video cam perched above it. (As he's posted here as well.)
At hunting distances, critters that "jump the string," for example, are reacting to the sound of the bow going off (and/or maybe some movement). They hear the bow long before they hear feather noise.
Long story short, no need to get one's undies in a bundle over feather noise. Shoot what you like to look at, what stabilizes your arrow best, etc., but don't worry about feather noise.
I dunno, Rick. We don't really know when an arrow starts making noise. Soon after it leaves the bow, for sure, but how soon and does it build over distance? It's always measured half-way down range, or farther from the shooter. It may be half-way to the critter before it makes an audible noise.
Too, though the speed of noise is faster than an arrow, it's more difficult hearing any object as it approaches compared to it going by at close range. And at normal hunting ranges, the arrow will strike the critter before it has time to react, at least if it's just reacting to arrow noise.
In more than 50 years of hunting critters, I've yet to have one react to what I can identify as feather noise. Oh, sure, if I shot over their back or under their belly, they heard and reacted to that. But again, they're hearing it as the arrow passes. Even on those shots, at least those I can remember, the critters didn't react until the arrow passed.
Also, most times in the woods there's other noise -- wind, moving leaves, branches, etc. to drown out the sound of the shot as well as feather noise.
I don't begrudge folks wanting to shoot arrows as quiet as possible, but it's nothing to get one's undies in a bundle about. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :>)
Rick I wholeheartedly agree and ran the exact same test. The only difference is I used my ears only. May I respectfully address this to George and Orion. George I said your shooting was very quiet and suggested the difference.Speed. --light weight bow--heavy arrows--and distance. Folks tend not to believe others test and examples. I hunt Texas deer also. Noise makes a huge difference. If I may recite my story again. I stood behind the hunting cabin and held a broom over the center of the target. 5 archers were in camp,at least three had compounds. Not one of them after numerous tries could hit the broom before I jerked it back. From 20 yards away and behind the building,I could not hear the bow. When I heard the arrow I reacted. I believe deer have much better hearing and faster reflexes. After watching much video with a dot superimposed on the aiming point and watching the deer avoid the arrow,there was no doubt. I switched to a 3 or 4" lower parabolic fletch and haven't missed an animal since.Maybe all of us had freaky noisy arrows. Maybe the elimination of misses was coincidental.Maybe deer in other parts of the country don't jump or duck. I have no reason for telling you this as I am equally sure Rick is not lying. I hate to be disbelieved. Don't try it if you don't want to. Originally I just tried to help and was pounced on.No worries I have zero respect for name callers and keyboard hunters. George and Orion you have my respect and I would have enjoyed shooting with you. If you didn't I wouldn't waste my time typing and trying to explain.Have a good day. >>>---> Ken
Jerry, if you listen to the video, you can hear the arrow coming, you can hear it as it passes, and you can hear it going away.
I've watched deer duck at what seemed to be the sound of the arrow on multiple occasions, and as I started getting my arrows quieter in flight I noticed they ducked much less often, so I was fairly convinced of it long ago.
Then a friend of mine 100% convinced me of it.
He showed me this little experiment "several" different time when we were hunting together.
He took his knife handle, and banged it on his bow. Much louder than the noise of the bow during the shot.
The deer just lifted their heads, looked our direction for a bit, then went right back to feeding.
Then he shot the same deer a few minutes later, and they tried to duck the arrow, and ran.
I don't believe feather noise is a big issue with big game. But it can be for smaller game. This is subjective and not intended to start any "he said she said" arguments. I shoot 5-inch four-fletch parabolic on wooden shafts and have done so since starting bow hunting over 50 years ago. Most of the feathers are Trueflight, but I also buy others on sale or just to try out. I purchased some feathers that were advertised as a higher profile, which they were noticeably taller, from a good source that were priced well.
We hunt a lot of ground squirrels in the summer months here in the West. Shooting identical newly fletched higher profile feathers as my previous arrows resulted in a day of frustration because the squirrels sitting their holes were down them before the arrow got there. Without exception. All day long.
Wondering if the arrows' increased tallness and noise was the cause, the next day I brought a mixture of arrows, same in weight, length, spine, etc. except fletch height. The morning was spent using the "old" arrows and it was back to business as usual. The afternoon was spent randomly shooting a mix of the arrows out of the quiver. Again, the ground squirrels were gone before the "loud" arrows got there but not the case with the shorter arrows.
I would not hesitate to use the taller feathers for rock chucks, mule deer, elk, and even antelope. But they stay home when hunting squirrels. I suspect tree squirrels would be similar but have never hunted them, or whitetails. But the first three impala I shot at all ducked the arrow on the video, and I would want the quietest arrows and bow combination I had for them and only shoot when they are more relaxed. And no, I don't know if they ducked the feather noise, bow noise, movement, color of the fletches, etc., no more than I can prove the squirrels are getting out of the way of loud feathers.
But think about it. I can't hear my silent dog whistle, but the wife's Irish water spaniel sure can. Ground squirrels evolved as prey for predators with feathers and may not have survived had they not had acute hearing for those whispering sounds coming at them. Just a thought, which certainly isn't meant to be transmitted to other game.
So, long winded as this is, and noting in advance that it is only one point on the chart and outlier that it may be with my apologies, I don't hunt squirrels with tall feathers.
Nice work Rick, but I'm afraid, looking at other related threads that guy's have noise suppressors in their ears (well maybe not in but still between them).
I didn't believe a deer could duck an arrow, but Wensels showed it on video back in the '70's (?). For those that did see the video it showed a guy missing a dead nuts shot OR so it appears. Then the video shows the shot over again with lines drawn on the back and belly of the deer. You see the arrow go right between the lines but the deer is under the belly line.
I want to believe, 2Bears, but I'm skeptical. What you describe would be an indication that your hearing and reflexes are faster than a deer's, because even when deer jump the string (bow noise), most still get hit by the arrow somewhere.
Because things are happening awfully fast in your scenario, it's difficult to determine if the the shooters just missed or if the broom was out of the way before the arrow struck. A broom is a fairly unwieldly object when held up with one or even two hands. Fairly difficult to move quickly.
Surprises me, too, that you say you couldn't hear the bow noise at 20 yards. As a relative thing, I've always felt the noise of my bow going off was louder than any noise the arrow made.
There's no doubt that deer react to noise. However, all the slow motion videos I've seen, they start their drop immediately due to hearing the bow go off. In fact, there's just no way we can tell what noise they're reacting to. Because the bow noise is louder and occurs first, I'm confident it's the first thing the deer hears and reacts to. It's also the reason the deer has enough time to actually move out of the way before the arrow gets there.
Have never hunted Texas, but from what I've read and the videos I've seen, the deer around feeders are very highly strung and bolt at the first sound of anything. I don't doubt they bolt quickly, but I'm still not convinced it's from hearing arrow noise rather than bow noise.
Regardless, this summer, I'm going to try to replicate your experiment.
I remember reading some sort of study (been a while back, and I can't find it again), that said a whitetail deer can drop an average of 8", turn a full 90 degrees from how it was standing "still", and be at a full out run in a mere 21/100's of a second.
I shot at a nervous doe at a corn pile 15 yards away one time. I would not have believed it if someone would have told me, but that doe dropped turned 180 degrees, and was 5 feet away when my arrow hit where she had been. I still have a hard time believing it - but I saw it. That was the last time I hunted out of one of our permanent stands over a corn pile or feeder.
That story is not meant as baiting commentary or anti feeders, etc.. It is just meant as an example how fast they can get out of the way.
Todd: The Wensel video is one I had in mind when I offered my two cents about deer ducking the string, but you'll notice I said, as did the Wensels, that it was bow noise, not feather noised that started the reaction.
Orion I clearly stated that a deer is far quicker and has superior hearing. I could not hear the bow. I doubt that I could hear the arrow before it was at least 1/2 there. I was covering the replaceable center in a block target. The arrows were in the center none hit the broom. Did you hear the bow in Rick's experiment? The target makes a lot of noise. Someone had a thread here on shooting goose feathers. The camera was at the target. I done it many times. I placed my hand on the computer screen and moved when I heard the arrow. It was no contest. It would never have hit my hand. I challenged each and every doubter to put their hand on the screen and try it.Not one single person would even try it----OR---- they wouldn't admit it. Maybe a deer still hears the bow first. I don't know the speed of sound is much faster than an arrow but still there is a slight delay. I do know I haven't had another deer "jump the string" since. I don't say anyone has to try it but if it turns one miss in to a hit or one wound into a kill. Well Why Not. I don't know what else I can say. I will hunt for the goose thread. Pretty sure it was on the LW. Thanks for listening. >>>----> Ken
O.K. go to the goose primary feathers thread by myddy1a 15 oct 15 the post by Buzz
Something has happened to put a lot of noise in the thread. You can hear the bow but it is not startling. If you can't lay your hand on the screen move it when you hear the feathers before the arrow hits---Well you are way slower than this 76 year old man.
Or if you wish maybe you can tell me how to bring it up here. Orion--George will you respond please. Thanks >>>---> Ken
Someone allowed as to how he didn’t know exactly how soon an arrow begins making noise. Well, noise is a function of velocity, and no arrow is ever moving faster than it does right as it parts company with the string.
So FWIW, the beginning of feather noise MUST NECESSARILY occur BEFORE the thump of the limbs as the string hauls them from top speed to zero.
That said... Doppler effect. I will go no farther than to say that the arrow is probably closer on the heels of the sound that it makes than you might expect.
And +1 for critters fearing the sounds of wind in the feathers. If they didn’t hear it and react to it, Owls would not have evolved the ability to glide soundlessly through the air. By contrast, if you’ve ever had a Redtail pass right over your head in a stoop, they sound about like a freight train.
So yes, it makes sense that animals would hear an arrow coming and try to duck. Lock-time aside, if someone were to throw a tennis ball past your head, you would duck out of pure, reflexive wiring, and reflexes are mediated locally, so that by the time the brain knows it’s in-coming, the response is already over.
Dang. You guys are going to have me shooting vanes before I know what hit me!
Matt you don't have to go to vanes though there is nothing wrong with them. I always kept a couple in my quiver for wet weather. I just like the looks of feathers and turning turkeys and geese to fletches and wing bone calls. A little shorter, lower, parabolic feather cut done it for me. >>>----> Ken
Clay, I have never compared Db levels of banana fletch to parabolics.
The low profile bananas are pretty quiet, but to my ear the low profile parabolics are a tad quieter.
I actually used to shoot banana fletch exclusively, but switched to parabolic after the first time I tried them simply because they seemed quieter to me.
The high profile bananas are pretty loud, but then again so are most high profile feathers.
Both the vanes, and the feathers in this test were low profile parabolic.
To address the bow noise, and when the arrow noise starts:
I have pretty decent hearing, and can actually hear the arrow coming in these sound tracks before I stop hearing the bow, so both noises are generated almost immediately together, and if not, the arrow is definitely making noise within a pretty close margin after the bow noise, and probably well before it actually passes the bow.
Anyone that has a "good" set of headphones should use them to listen to these. It opens up a whole new/better world of sound.
2Bears: I couldn't retrieve the thread. When I search for it under keyword, it brings me back to this thread. When I search for it under handle, it says there are no entries.
As you and others have pointed out, and I don't disagree, critters can hear arrow noise. Our disagreement is to how quicky they hear it and react to it. It's just my contention that 1) conditions must be right (calm and quiet) for them to hear it, and 2) if it's the only thing they hear, it's unlikely they can move out of the way quickly enough to avoid the arrow.
To use your experiment, for example. You indicate you probably didn't hear the arrow until it was half way there. I dunno. A bow shooting an arrow at 170 fps is equal to traveling about 116 mph. I'd hate to be standing in the road 10 yards in front of a car going 116 mph. Don't think I'd be able to get out of the way, well maybe enough for it to only hit an arm or a leg, which I suppose is what you're saying.
GF: I agree that prey critters like squirrel, rabbits, ground squirrels, etc react to arrow noise. I've seen them do it, but only at fairly long distances like 30-50 yards or more (ground squirrels and gophers). Too, I can't be sure that they weren't reacting to seeing the arrow, particularly ground squirrels and gophers. Of course, when I'm shooting closer than than that, they can no doubt hear the bow go off and probably see me as well, which gives them visual clues.
Since cervids have few avian predators (eagles and mountain lions), I'm not sure they're as wired for reacting to sounds from above as are the smaller prey species.
Regarding when the arrow makes the most noise. Agreed that's it's going fastest when it just leaves the bow, but it has to start spinning, and it can't do that until after it leaves the string, and, I expect it builds rotational speed for a while. To my way of thinking, the noise would be greatest when the highest rotational speed is achieved because it creates the most air drag.
Here's another "data" set on deer and other large critters reacting to bow/arrow noise. Go to U-tube and watch a batch of videos. Sure, in some cases, the critter jumps the string. Can't be sure if it's reacting to bow noise or feather noise. But, just as common, the critter doesn't jump the string, which means it isn't hearing any noise, (bow or arrow)or it's ignoring it, or it moves too late to make a difference.
There are all sorts of ambient noises which drown out both bow and arrow noises. It seems we would have to stipulate that conditions have to be fairly calm and quiet for critters to pick bow or arrow noise. Regarding arrow noise, we haven't even talked about broadhead noise, and I've heard some broadheads that make way more noise than the worst feathers.
Guess all I'm suggesting is that within reason, feather noise is not that big a factor. I select a fletch for guidance first, noise is secondary. Of course, smaller fletches tend to increase speed. A nice benefit is that they also reduce noise. But I certainly wouldn't go to a smaller fletch to reduce noise if substantially reduced arrow stability was the result.
Orion it seems to be intermittent. I got the same results when I went back to double check the OP's name yesterday. Just now it gave me a completely different list only about a dozen threads there. It came up using Goose primary Feathers. (keyword) You are underestimating reaction time,both deer and human. Example follow through. You know if you grab the bow handle it disturbs the shot before the arrow is clear. I have all the confidence in the world that archer Buzz can not hit your hand before you remove it from the screen. I would duplicate the test with the broom if I could video and post it. I hesitated forever mentioning the experiment(safety reasons) but I hate to see game wounded and lost. I never put any part of my body out from behind the building regardless of great communication in advance. I came and went from the other side of the building.Your writings all make sense especially dodging the car. I can't quote times and speeds but can't dispute the result either.>>--> Ken
Intrigued by quieter vanes and tired of feathers getting wet and roughed up. I have been shooting 4 3.5 inch feathers on Axis 350 traditional shafts and get good flight. What size, make and configuration of vanes might work for shooting off the shelf? Would I need to go to 3 fletch with cock feather in? Have been looking at Marco low profile soft vanes. Thanks for any recommendations.
This is the sound of the full 20 yard flight path of:
one arrow with low profile 3 X 4" plastic vanes
one arrow with low profile 3 X 4" feathers
Both shot at the camera, and over it at 12". The camera was placed at 15 yards
Sound slowed to 1/8th normal speed.
I admit, shooting at the camera made them sound very close, but keep in mind, the 4" parabolic feathers are one of (if not) the quietest variety/cut, yet there is an audible/distinguishable difference.