Good evening. I bought a draw clicker for my bow. Do you guys push or pull through the shot? I've been getting to my anchor and then pushing until the click goes off and then I release. However I can't follow through doing that because I'm not pulling back. I'm locked at anchor and then I push my bow arm forward. Not that it's good or bad I'm just curious what other people are doing.
Ok, the most comprehensive answer isn't something that can be communicated over a forum from strangers. That said, a clicker isn't something that goes off when you push your bow arm or pull your string arm, but when you expand the bow. All the action is happening in the back, with the scapula moving down, to the side, and rotating so that your shoulder can actually slide over it, perpendicular to the arrow and straight back. This will naturally push your bow scapula, shoulder and therefore bow arm forward, as well as pulling the bow arm back angularly, but that's not what you should be focusing on. That's a sure path to target panic deeper than you already had, anticipating the clicker and falling apart after you hear that click you were pulling to.
I never "lock on target". I bring the bow up as I draw, draw straight back to anchor and keep my bow arm straight. When I reach anchor, the arrow is on target so its just a matter of a little more pushing forward with the bow and the drawing hand is pulling past anchor and letting the string slip away. It's all one smooth, fluid motion. Follow through is just holding the bow steady and touch the ear with the finger on the drawing hand. You're just always expanding through the shot.
Brandon, when you say "follow through" I assume that you are talking about your string hand doing something after release.
For some reason, thre has been this odd idea recently that your string hand for some reason has to ove some huge amount like to your shoulder or something. And that is what folks are calling follw through.
Fully 80% of the people that you see do that, are over exaggerating the process, and it's meaningless. The movement from release to the shoulder doesn't even start until after the string has well left the fingers. So it is NOT a reactio to the release.
Follow through actually is in the bow arm. That's what needs to be solid, and consistent. The bow arm has to be solid until after the arrow passes the bow. The bow arm has a LOT more affct on consistent shooting then anything your release hand does.
So, if your release hand is staying on, or close to your face, and your are pushing and pulling evenly through the release, you are probably doing it correctly for the first time.
You push, because if you don't the bow shoulder collapses either during the hold or on release, that's what "push" means (unless you're Italian - but only John and Steve will get that ;) ). The pull can either be continuous or stop and start at anchor, the arrow doesn't care, really.
On the release thing: The fingers can relax by relaxation of the flexor muscles or open by increasing tension of the extensor muscles. Usually it's a little of both, but I don't know any legit coaches or instructors who teach the latter, as it sets the shooter up for failure (a lousy release).
The shoulder can't collapse on release because the tension on the ribcage being released naturally springs the arm and shoulder forward. But if it is held straight in target style, there is no more movement to actively "push" with. The arm is already maximally extended.
You would have to shoot slightly bent elbow to push, which some defintiely do.
The finger thing has already been adressed. Whether it's taught or not, the extensors are active as difficult as that may be for even the experts to handle.
Follow through to me is pretty much self-explanatory. You keep the position of the shot, as much as the shot dynamics will allow through such an explosion. The way I think of it is just keeping the bow in the shooting position as best I can until I hear or see the arrow strike the target. If I do that, I make good shots. If I don't...I don't. For me it's the last thing I can do to ensure the arrow launches to where I want it to go.
We get into a lot of rubber semantics here and that can confuse folks. I still defer to the terminology I learned in the 1960's and it still works if I do it right.
How do you push with a fully extended "bone on bone" bow arm anyway?
So, is the string released as your fingers swing/are moved forward away from it,or, does it slip off your fingers as the hand relaxes and moves rearward?
To answer these questions above, I'll use some Dimensions as an aid. My draw length is 28.5". When I draw, I lift the bow vertically, no canting. I put the arrow on the target, draw and anchor at roughly 27.5". At this point, my arm is slightly bent. Then I extend my arm, pushing forward that last 1", until my arm is fully extended. Then the click goes off. My arm at full extension, bone on bone contact, can be used as a psycho trigger, so that I'm not relying on the clicker when using a different bow.
As far as my release, that's the portion I'm working on. By having a stationary anchor, I'm pushing forward that last one inch of draw, I tend to pluck. That's because I'm telling myself to release. I'm going to incorporate (once I hit full extension and bone-on-bone contact) pulling through my release as the shot goes off. A stationary release is no good.
The bow arm should be locked solid.If you have a draw point and get to it, I use a three point anchor. then you get on target and slowly relax the fingers. Slowly is relative. LOL. But bow arm should always be bone on bone and locked solid , I call that dead. release should reflect minimal movement and as the fingers relax back muscles should remain tight by slightly tightening them. God bless, Steve
There are actually lots of ways to release...Look at your hand, the secret has been there for tens of thousands of years...
There are many problems with tournament release methods for bowhunting. For example, they don't work very well when a monster bull elk comes crashing thru the brush towards you...try the push then or 50:50 push: pull. Odds are you'll be push releasing before you are ever ready with your aim or aggressively pulling destroying your extension line.
In some Asian culture, I can’t remember which one or maybe it was several, using the thumb ring, there is this image that the archer is instructed to keep in mind as they draw the bow.
The image is that of a tiger at a full out run; the muzzle stretching forward, towards the prey and the tail straight Out behind them.
Just like with a finger draw, the thumb ring draw employees many different techniques. However, most involve more movement of the bow arm and string arm, allowing for this push pull and follow through With each arm.
Depending on which I am working on at the time, I will shift my focus in form practice from the pull through with a string arm to the push with a bow arm. I do this whether I am shooting with the thumb ring or split finger.
To think that Brady Ellison doesn't pull or push and pull is is is, well just ludicrous.
I'm curious to see Vipers comment... well maybe not, because I now he's not a big KSL fan. Lee has the shoulder locked down when in the set position, so there's no room for movement.
Rick McKinney usually give both sides of an issue. He says that a lot of Olympic shooter push and pull, but I'm pretty sure he just pulls. He even breaks it down into the Koreans do this and the Russians...
I think the locked down shoulder is a good idea for draw length. If you're moving two things it's hard to be at the same length at release than just moving one.
If you can talk and chew gum at the same time then maybe push and pull is the right thing for you. I think doing two things at anytime during the shot complicates and already complicated process. Other than this, everything in a sequence is one at a time, with the exception of aiming, but that is a longer process.
I think one of the reasons the swing draw is so prone to TP is because of trying to do two things at the same time. NO, actually three, bring the bow up, drawing, and ending up on target - which is the main TP causing event.
When I said that aiming is a longer process, I meant longer than the other one at a time parts of the shot. Pulling and pushing and pulling should be about the same time length as aiming. THe shorter the better, because lengthy aiming can be a TP issue also.
The more I read about sequences from Lee, Henderson, McKenney, Kim and others, I'm starting to believe their sequences are set up to work the conscious to skip from one thing to another, not give the subconscious a chance to dwell on any one thing. AND cause TP. I wanted to add that to the last sentence, but it was already a run-on sentence. LOL
I heard Rod Jenkins say in his DVD "You cannot not pull hard enough" well for me it's a disaster and I feel like I'm just tensing up and the release is a BIG explosion and lot of movement.
I'm more comfortable with a 50/50 balance, in my mind it's a subtle increase of opposing forces and I'm waiting for everything to feel right (aim) before the release happens, the follow through is short compared to Olympic style but it's only an issue to me if it was a forward release, I shoot very controlled and relaxed this way and works well for me.
Im not a fan of this touch the shoulder and not seeing any of the European Barebows doing this, I guess it's more of and American thing, not saying it's wrong, just something I feel I dont need.
" Lee has the shoulder locked down when in the set position, so there's no room for movement. " You can move a locked shoulder through respiration aka expansion in all directions - the Asians are teaching the expansion while exhaling. Check Jake Kaminski's video about form (NTS workshop, learn how to shoot Archery with Two Time ...) - he has it on his FB, and go to 1h19min.
The heavier the bow is, the more you will want to have a steadier bow hand. And to get it steady you need to have the push feeling toward the target. For lightweight bows you are saved by the clicker and you stop - otherwise you would push a lot more than necessary and the arrow goes off the trajectory to the target. Just my opinion based on body mechanics in response to exterior pressure.
My "expansion" is from pushing my string arm back. I dont pullfor expansion but push back as if my elbow were pushing something around behind me. That leaves the fore arm relaxed. My follow thru is just a reflex action from the weight suddenly being gone and my back being surprised. Like having a tug o war and the other guy letting go.
Luckily in archery you can respect the law without showing it. This push-pull topic is due to the visual input. And most of the time not many trainers are able to explain in simple words what someone should feel. It's the same for any type of training when subtle things are involved. You can have a dead release and still have the pull.
Draven is correct. What you see (or think you see) may not be what's happening. In a human body, it's almost impossible to have a complete isometric or isotonic muscle contraction. One always has a component of the other. Therefore the "push" may not be seen by an observer, but it has to be there. The pull is what generates the follow-through. The rearward motion of the string hand pretty much has to happen, whether it be 1mm or 1'. If it doesn't, you collapsed.
Another thing. The idea of expanding (the thorax) while exhaling, is a technique that was used by weight lifters in the past. It's practice can go from useless to physiologically harmful. You're basically telling your body to do the opposite of what it wants to do, at the least it weakens the movement.
Viper, to breath correctly takes a lot of practice. That's why you should do it under supervision or with the ad: don't do it at home without instructions, you might be damaged goods after. I think Moe said one time that KSL has a full chapter on breathing for high level archers in one of his books.
Check out Brady's slo mo here and reduce the speed. The fingers and hand creeps forward before it goes back. Irrefutably so. So you certainly can creep and follow through to the rear. The built up tensino just results in a one step forward and two steps backweards motion.
When I push my bow arm I'm actually pushing with muscle in my back while the same muscle on the other side is contracting on my draw hand.I can fill this.I've also noticed that my bow arm shoulder goes to a more lower type position and draw side elbow goes to a more level position when doing the pushing and pulling.This is what seems to be happening but it may all be in my head.Anyone else experience this....
Aside from the usual arguing, the explanations on these type of threads, while well intended, become extremely confusing. To the point of being over thought. How does one actually think of "all" this stuff and concentrate on a spot and release? I always thought when the clicker "clicks" the process has been done correctly.
That's the problem. If you can really "not" think about it, your body will do what it physically wants to do. Elevating the bow, drawing and "expanding", all open the thorax and causing an inhalation. (It's the release the should trigger the exhalation.) You would have to force the diaphragm and intercostal muscles to do exactly the opposite of what they want to do.
Most western athletes, or people in general, are so uptight that the simple act of breathing has to be retaught.
True. All these breathing technics are remnants from the "fighting to survive" past, when a good fighter is attacking on the opponent's inhale. They developed a way of breathing to cover the body movements due to breathing, no matter if is with bare hands or swords and after that moved to the bow. It takes a lot of "thinking" while breathing to get it right before it becomes "natural".
In the 'set' position you lock down your shoulder. If you can move it forward you didn't set it down properly. The book has all types of pictures and arrows on the pictures explaining how it's locked down. If you want to move the shoulder any other direction (but back), I don't advise it, but your bow arm is not even on target yet.
There is one whole chapter on Breathing. Plus a chapter on Rhythm and Timing, which are pretty much concerned on breathing.
We are talking about pushing and pulling though. When it comes to pulling your not going to see much movement. Like Viper says 1 mm. The reason is the 'J'. You'll see movement until the start of the curved part of the 'J' and then it's (movement) pretty much internal, because 'movement' is not 180 degrees away from the target, it has shifted in the direction of the archer's back. 90 degrees to the 180, hence the lack of visual movement.
As usual this is getting to picky. I apologize for being part of it, but I think that shoulder lock down is pretty important. First thing I show when coaching, because everyone can move their arm forward. If they can't they're not asking me to coach them.
Lock your shoulder, solid like a rock. Now put tension on your teres minor muscle - elongated muscle of rotator cuff. That little muscle that is modulating deltoid's action. Your bow hand will move millimetres toward the target - is more than you need. That muscle is the single one that is moving the bow hand forward. All the rest are moving your bow hand on a rotational path. When you use your breathing - expanding on exhale - you exhale toward your belly button (actually below it but is too complicated) in same time tensing those insignificant muscles. That's giving you the expansion. If you use both muscles on both arms you get your 50-50 linear expansion.
Draven,your post about the 50/50 linear expansion makes sense to me and this is what I've been doing ot trying to do for a few years.I never really thought about the breathing part like that but I do iniatate my release as I exhale just have never put that much emphasis on my breathing.All this happens very quick,well not slow and there's not as much movement as alot of people think imo.I really dont know if my bow arm moves toward the target or not but it is pushing.Seems like some people actually try to over exaggerate all the movements again just my opinion.I know for me my release hand does not come back nowhere nears as much as some I've seen in videos but it does come back....I am nowhere near as nolagble as most of u guys but really like reading these post as I always seem to learn sumthin...
The breathing is done with a purpose and is not to get rid of the air from the lungs. The weakest link in the chain made by bow, bow arm, arrow, string and string arm is the upper body. Too many pieces to try to keep them still in the target, so they created a way to make the chain to act as "one piece" right before release. Your big back muscles are engaged, but to not collapse you need those small muscles and the core muscles engage too. Embrace for impact - getting the body ready to absorb the shock - that some are talking about is what you train through that type of breathing. Most people are doing it without noticing, some no and have big chances to become one of the reasons for TP. It's a split second, just a "feel" of pushing and not actually seeing all those tensions. At least is what I was told and taught.
Knowing the fine details of the mechanics of bones/muscles can be useful (can also send your brain into overload)
As long as the alignment is good (bone on bone) and the forces are continuously opposing i.e you don't collapse or forward release then don't sweat the details too much, I guarantee you can't be thinking all this stuff through the shot sequence and make consistent and accurate shots.
I will humor you some more. Go back and watch several close- up videos of Brady shooting (not just one event) and watch his bow extend toward the target as he breaks the clicker. That's active pushing, and yes, he does it. It's impossible to deny it when you see the bow move toward the bale. His string also moves across his chest guard, meaning he's pulling at the same time (or rotating if you prefer).
My point is many of the best archers in the world expand equally as they break the clicker.
I shot with Brady and many other Olympic archers for years. I was actively coaching during those years. I could not help but pay particular attention to how each person shot the bow. I am very familiar with quite a few of them. It's the perspective you get when you're literally inches from someone at full draw, watching them break the clicker when shooting a match against them.
As for an exile, I'm not sure what you're referring to. I don't feel like shooting at the moment but that doesn't mean I am done thinking.
PS The question above is just to say that when you want an answer about "simultaneous" or "chain of events" you should specify a time frame: milliseconds. Otherwise is just another question from the humblebragging arsenal.
"Regardless of the time frame you can still establish which of the two it is."
Simultaneous. Even if someone can think he just pushes, his body will increase the pulling to compensate for the increased pressure that comes from the push - simultaneously. The real problem with this push-pull is where you put your attention: in the front/target/push or back/release/pull. Some were saying the TP is due to doing too many things in same time. No, one of the reasons is paying attention to too many things in same time. And this is a learning issue or teaching problem - feeding too many things too soon.
Given an "either or" choice, I believe the push is the more important because it holds the bow steadier and 2) it can create a very nice release separate from pulling. If you just have pulling, you get less benefits.
But there are problems, big ones with bowhunting as due to exictement these actions of pushing or pulling or both can can be way overdone creating wild shots. I was using the push to release (no one taught me, I figured it out on my own - never had a coach) and was shooting very well with it decades ago. The first time I tried it on a bull elk I was so excited I was pushing to release well before my aim was at the elk...pathetic!
Excitement also exist in tournament archery, but one has more time during the shot process, you can warm up, it's a more predictable happening; you know what the circumstance will be, and so forth.
oh boy here we go again...I took a break from leatherwall for awhile mostly because I've been very busy.
I see things haven't changed much...lol
I think a lot of things get confusing with terminology and by the fact that some guys don't sweat the small stuff...other guys make mountains out of mole hills.
Some guys pick up a bag of potato chips and dig in...the next guy reads the ingredients on the back and has to do a chemical analysis of the ingredients.
one guy is glad because he has a half full glass of water...next guy is steamed because he only has a half glass.
some guys underestimate...next guy way overestimates.
one guy pushes and pulls and gets all caught up in the meto physics, skeletal structure, muscle structure, and other scientific phenomenon of shooting a bow.............and the next guy just picks the fartin thing up and shoots it.
some of you more Knowledgeable scholars here will pick up on the term " meto physics" I used,...lol.. proper terminology?....lol... I'm not as dumb as I act....but I don't read the label on my tater chips either.
All the above blabla is the difference between doing what works for you and trying to explain what are you doing and works for you. If anybody tries to explain how he shoots in a way that everybody can understand will run out of words 8 out of 10 times. But who gives a *blip* about it? In the end expansion is never more than a word followed by "you'll figure it out" in the best case and "pull pull pull" in worst case.
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO LINK! It's been bookmarked along with the Arne Moe and Jimmy Blackmon vids.
I am very relieved & encouraged to see how much I am shooting correctly (to the extent that I am) albeit sloppily & inconsistently.
One interesting pt.- the movement of his bow hand is exactly what I strive for when shooting the Asiatic thumb release style, but would never have caught that without seeing it up close and in slow motion. These bows (OK, "Horse" bows for simplicity) are always pushed to the target, some styles spectacularly so. Sometimes too much for consistent accuracy!
Also the Olympic style anchor location- always a puzzle to me; now something concrete to work with. As a coach/teacher (at a very basic level for recreational beginners) I have wanted to learn the rudiments of this for awhile, at least for demonstration purposes. I like how his draw fingers work, and the entire movement of his release.
Yep, a pic is worth 1,000 words and a good Video must be worth 1,000 threads!
The ideal scenario is they have trained themselves so they are subconsciously expanding while they focus on their aiming point.
With more practice, you can learn to "feel" the expansion the same way you feel your car drifting out of it's lane. You don't have to see it, think about it and decide how to respond. You just do it without thinking 1000 times a trip.
Jason, don't give it away. Balanced expansion starts with the right shoes is a trade secret. ;)