I don't want to say, 'they're out', but a prototype is out. Bigger hooks (if that's possible) and about a pound of let off. To me that sound like it's against the rules of physics???

Sounds like it must be faster/more energy, because of the need for an increase in spine??? I'd really like to get a pair of limbs to play with a lighter spine. These fit on a CH riser. The ILF model is in the works, and be available later.

Very good video on Archery Talk. Contains DFC's that show that pound let off!!!

Bowmania

Here you go Todd

Thx for posting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S_Dw4qwoXY

kginrick: too me the Hex8's don't "Defy" physics as much as they reveal how little mankind has ventured into exploiting those physics anywhere near their full potential.

In the case of the Hex7/7.5 and now Hex8 limbs we've seen a progression where the Hex6 limbs were just the tip of the iceberg and the physics related aspect that Borders is exploiting here is simply?...

"Leverage"

Where their limb tips are moving both upwards and downwards (respectively) as those big hooks are rolling rearward leaving the archer to enjoy a healthy leverage advantage over the working mid-limb where in the case of the new Hex8's?...they have reached a point where they are actually overpowering that working mid-limb to some small degree but nevertheless?...resulting in a measurable amount of?...

"Let-Off"

But getting there was certainly beyond Physics 101 and quite the accomplishment for Borders.

Think of how a round cam works on an older compound and it's not such a mystery. Same draw gain in the early stages of the draw and reduced or neutral gain in the final stages. Different feel at full draw, but not like a compound. Yes, I own 2 sets of 7.5 limbs and a CH riser.

This new technology may be the downfall of traditional bowhunting :-)

I'm fascinated by the physics of those bows even never having so much as held one in hand.

If they ever get to the point of true let off, that would seem to represent a loss of stored energy?

Border is so far ahead of other bowyers it's not even funny. Great bows

spike78: Not a chance...I'm sure Longbow archers may've felt the same back when a young Fred Bear started doglegging bows yet?...

I'm a member of T.A.S. and those archers are so into HH/ASL's it's like speaking another language yet?...

Heck...the Allen Compound came out how long ago?...and yet?...

Here we are on LW. ;)

Man has been trying to make a better bow ever since the first guy tied a string to both ends of a stick.

With all the innovation going on that surrounds SR type limbs with big hooks?...single string archery has never been more exciting since man first put recurve into a limb. :)

I'm not so sure---The Morrison Max 5's perform as well ass the Border 7.5's, altho I'm sure the new 8's will increase that advantage.

I'm not so sure---The Morrison Max 5's perform as well as the Border 7.5's, altho I'm sure the new 8's will increase that advantage.

I have a Black Douglas with 6.7 limbs I think those 8s are really neat. I enjoy the feel of my limbs draw force curve. Can't imagine these. Would have to upgrade to the CH for that I guess. Ha.

Bill

badgerman: The Max5's aren't as fast or powerful as even the Hex7's let alone 7.5's.

Just a thought ... but ... are the curves on the end border limbs acting as cams?

If anyone is interested their are Border Hex limbs on EBay.

A friend of mine sent me pics of Max4’s and I thought oh my, what’s next, but than again I’m a long straight L/B guy .... those hooks on the super Recurves are almost scarey to me ...

Thanks for the video Joe. Very interesting. I'd like to give them a try. They are wild looking. Jim

I'm waiting or the 10's, it will only be two years anyway and the 8's will be obsolete next year at this time. )

Actually I owned a Border recurve back in the mid 80's and it was a very nice bow. So many good bows though.

Thx Jim

I’m glad the video is being well received

Looking at the Hex 8 draw force curve, there is actually a weight drop off starting at 26" of draw thru almost 29". It is slight, but it is a drop off.

Or did I look at the chart upside down?

I hear ya George , what’s next , on and on , but I guess they got something here , doubt I’ll ever know

Border actually toned down the letoff. They had a prototype that was like 2 pounds less at 29" than it was at 25". They wanted a straighter top end and now it only goes down a little bit.

^^THIS^^ is true.

I'd love to try a set in medium ILF, that would be 68 to 70# at 29.5" of draw on a 21" riser.

Anyone want to buy them for me? :-)

No?. I figured that. LOL

Rick

Ok...since I'm a little slow someone explain this to me. If the bow has "let off" then that would mean that it would have to hit ABOVE it's peak weight somewhere along the force draw curve. Then, it would lose weight in the final say 3" of draw, to get DOWN to the peak weight. So, that being said, and based on the examples given, the bow would draw 52'ish pounds at 25" and then drop to 50lbs. at 28" for a 50lb. bow.

That’s exactly what’s happening, and it’s not defying physics. Those giant hooks accomplish one basic engineering practice.......they increase the moment arm. The longer the moment arm is, the less force is required. As those hooks open up, the distance from any line relative to the center of the bow and the limb tip increases(on a typical bow, it decreases). Really no different than using a breaker bar to loosen a seized bolt

The new materials available to archery manufacturers will let a lot of stuff re-happen, and some new stuff formulated. Torsional stability was the key to have full working "hooks". The old way of attaining stability negated the use of the hooks at full draw.

Rick at that weight and that draw the arrows would go back in time :)

Larry I love that pic

The FDC curve should answer the question.

I'm sure you're all aware that there's an energy price to be payed for the drop off in draw force ... the kinetic energy also is reduced

People keep saying Border are doing what nobody else can do, a?l they did was incorporate they super curve into a modern design with modern materials.

To claim theyre doing what other bowyers cant, not so sure, it's a direction that not a?l Archers/Bowyers need. Good that Border do provide for those that feel the need.

Depends if the energy storage earlier in the draw cycle is greater than the decrease on back end.

The development of such a bow without cams is impressive engineering for sure. Wonder what the price tag is to pay for it and the R&D? On second thought if I have to ask then they are not in my bow budget.

If you go to Archery Talk, Joe posted a graph showing draw curve of Hex 8 limbs.

Phil, that is why they flattened out the draw at the end. Better performance and not as big of a letoff feel.

kginrick If the increase in incremental draw weight is negative starting at 26", then the draw weight does go down, does it not?

I didn't do the testing that is plotted on the graph, but that is what the graph shows. Border has been discussing this for some time. There are videos showing the scale and incremental draw weights on facebook on earlier model Hex limbs with slight increases. As Chris stated, they developed prototypes that had more significant "drop off" than the graph shown in Joe Paranee's new Hex 8 video.

Have you ever shot any Hex 7/7.5 limbs? The Hex 8s have turned the let off sensation into reality.

kginrick: I wish I could access the vid link and post it here but it's proprietary too Border Bows and too the best of my knowledge has only been aired in Border Bows "Closed Group" FB sites but what it shows is the Hex8 Trials where on a scaled drawboard the Hex8's exhibited about a 2# Decrease in DW (on the backend) as they were drawn back too a longer length of draw.

In the end Borders opted to reduce the amount of let-off they achieved as they felt the cumulative performance was better with less let-off but they still left about 1/2# in there to give the archer that relaxed feel as they come to anchor and as a result?...

Where in their optimum specifications the Hex7 limbs stored 1.19ftlbs (per pound drawn) and the Hex7.5's store 1.25fltlbs the new Hex8's store 1.31ftlbs...along with a complimentary amount of let-off and enhanced vertical stability.

What this equates too is...

4 years ago the Hex7's claim to fame was the shockingly smooth feel of their backend and the ability to throw 10gpp arrows at 200fps where with the progression too Hex8's?...they are knocking on the door of throwing 11gpp arrows at 200fps and doing so with an even more accomodating backend feel at anchor.

BTW...to address all this talk about "Cams"?....

"Cams": were a progression from the original round wheels found on the first compounds where they had an eccentric utilizing an offset axel hole (aka: "E-Wheels") and it wasn't the wheels that gave the archer the then 50% let-off as much as it was a result of the cable/pulley system transfering the load from the archer and back into the limbs of the bow itself where the advent of Cams simply enhanced the let-off that cable and pulley system as Cams were a "progession" of compound bows?...SR limbs are a progression of Recurves.

kginrick

We must be looking at different graphs. The graph I am viewing in Joe's video does indeed show the draw weight dropping. I am viewing the graph at 3:35 into the video.

I must be missing something.

Did you look at the force draw curve on archerytalk? Maybe someone can post over here. But it clearly shows there is less weight at 28" than at 25". I think they got it at around a pound maybe a little less. L

If the bow is 50#@28" it would seem you would hit 47#@25" then one pound for each inch to 28" = 50#@28". This should feel like a let off, this makes sence to me.

I did.

They did.

;^)

if anyone has access to the actual numbers I have software that can do a force draw integral and calculate the energy under the force draw curve.

The key to any bow design is how well you can shoot with it. We can fill a thread with over 500 posts and it proves nothing. These same folks should maybe show us on video just how well they can utilize the bestest of the bestest in real time. And I don't mean chronograph numbers or shooting at twenty yards. Top archers of the day...fifty years ago, were shooting perfect scores indoors and near perfect with some perfect scores out of doors on difficult field rounds. So my sense tells me all of this makes good fodder for discussion, but little nuts and bolts when applied to the target ranges or the hunting woods.

Awesome video !!

The nice thing about archery today is that we have so many choices.

I can shoot what I like, and you can shoot what you like.

As long as I am having fun, I don't care what other people think about my equipment.

If Howard Hill and Saxon Pope were alive today, I am sure they would be shooting exactly the same archery tackle they were shooting in their prime.

Here guys it’s in the video

This site is just rather difficult to post pics on

I don’t know if SR’s are for everyone but I like them very much

I don’t know if Howard Hill or Fred Bear would like them nor do I really care :)

I do believe they would always be interested in a better mouse trap

Are these better for competition ? I don’t know I’m not a competitive archer

I’m a bow hunter ...have been hunting with recurves since I was a kid 40+ years

I didn’t come to single string archery through compounds I never left single string archery to begin with so for me this whole traditional thing is something I’m lost on

I hunt with a Recurve and the advantages these styles of bows offer is a smaller working envelope with out finger pinch and added power

I came from heavy recurves and now I can get the same power or more by shooting a bow 10 pounds lighter

They like heavy arrows and these bows handle them exceptionally well

I’ve hunted with them exclusively for the last 4 or 5 years and I have really enjoyed them

I do a lot of ambush style Hunting on the ground for whitetails and show me another 62 inch bow that can be shot vertical sitting on your heals ....pic from video

It would be good If someone does their own testing to show the data can be replicated, Im not saying it's false/incorrect, just being able to replicate the numbers goeš a long way.

Well all the yap yap, I am n the poition of hurting shoulders and elbows. If dropping 10Lbs is the diffrence between dropping archery altogether and staying in the game and continue to hunt. Guess what I will be dong.

I’m sure once these get in more hands someone will graph them

No one has ever found Borders graphs wrong before

I have done some preliminary chrono work amd my numbers are matching theirs

I don’t like to post chrono stuff because it is to subjective but the speed is not the only equation I’m after

Smaller working envelope (a 60 inch CH is less than 55 inches strung) and the very smooth draw is what I like plus I don’t mind being able to drop weight and get more power :)

Through in the craftsmanship and I’m happy

Elkpacker that's what Kginrick is telling George. I might not have been about to hunt last year without Hex 7.5's or some other SR. If I had make it through last year shooting 50 pound I probably would not make it this year

AND WORSE THAN THAT, the LW would have lost the biggest blowhard it has.

Bowmania

My first Covert Hunter arrived yesterday. I had a gut feeling that as soon as I dropped a bundle on a bow, something would happen to take away my elation. I suppose this is it. One good thing though is I am getting to see who the guys are that have the bows so I will know who to ask for advice. At the moment I am still trying to find an arrow that works and also in getting used to the sensation that the string has broken when I hit about 28" of draw. These bows are unlike anything that I have ever shot.

Can’t edit here meant to say throw

Joe .. do you have the actual numbers of the force draw curves

Hi Phil all I have is the charts posted

Thx

Brad the Hex 7.5 is am awesome limb and if I never saw an 8 I would be more than content with it

This is the craftsmanship I’m talking about

The Morrison Max 5 is more on line with Hex 7 based on what I have seen on draw force weight progression.

Brad Lehmann: If you are shooting Hex7's or newer?....there is no reason for you to suffer the loss of so much as one ounce of elation and BTW?...Congrats on the New CH! :)

The arrow spine required will be at least one and probably two classes stiffer than what you would typically use on bows of conventional limb profile and similar DW....possibly 3 spine classes stiffer if you're long drawed or prefer full length arrows and/or heavy points.

Hex7 (and newer) limbs pile on the pounds early and store gobs of them before ending off with their silky smooth backend which is why they respond best with much stiffer (than normal) arrows as the power stroke delivers one heck of a punch.

Mine has the 7.5 limbs. I started one spine heavier but it was hard to tell what was going on as there was about a fifteen mile an hour crosswind coming from my left. The arrows were hitting three to four inches to the right and showing stiff spine. I tried using points from 175 to 225 grain with little effect. The elevated rest that came on the bow was stripping my feathers off so I just stopped, pulled off the elevated rest and built a nice leather rest and strike plate. The wind is more favorable today so I will try again. Maybe build up the rest and put a toothpick behind the strike plate if it keeps shooting to the right. It is going to take awhile on this bow.

Thanks Jinx, I think that I will like it. I read several of your posts prior to it arriving so I am ahead of the game a little bit.

Brad...you're very welcome and here's a few more tips based on your last response.

I'm assuming you purchased the bow pre-owned with a stick-on rest...(as you pulled it off)...so keep in mind that the CH risers are cut 5/16ths" (.312") PAST center and that this means you would need at least 5/32ndths (.156") thickness for your strike plate to get a standard diameter (.312") shaft to rest in a centershot position.

I actually like just a touch thicker where it leaves "Just The Tip" of the point just outboard of the string.

That is exactly what I did Jinkster. I now have the bow shooting quite well. The archer is a bit weak but the bow is good. The arrow that I ended up with is a 340 spine cut 30 1/2" bop with 175 grain points. I did use 200g and 225g points but the only thing that I noticed is a strike point lower on the target and an arrow that was buried deeper into the target. The bow is a 64" 49#@31".

Here's something that I feel reflects the shootability of the SR's. I'll have to use Hex 8 figures.

Oly archers pull about 1/4 inch through the clicker. Let's assume that pulling through the clicker equates a good shot. I think that's more than assumption, no matter how you shoot. In fact, if you don't pull through they call it a collapse.

A conventional bow gains 2.5 in that last inch of draw. That's 40 ounces. 1/4 of that figure is 10 oz to pull through the clicker. Or we might speculate 10 oz to not collapse.

On the Border Hex 8's and using the 0.7 pound in the last inch of draw equals 11.2 oz. 1/4 of that to pull through the clicker is a little under 3 ounces.

I struggle with back tension - not so much with Hex 7.5's.

Bowmania

Bowmania, my olympic style bow pulls 1.6# last inch. 1/4 of that is .4 pounds about 6 ounces. Also a great Olympic Archer isn't pulling 1/4" through the clicker. Maybe 1/8th maybe. Not starting a big debate here. Just giving some clearer details.

Kginrick, I’ll try to explain it better. When you watch the SR limbs work, the “working part” of the limbs bend, then the hooks open up. So let’s just say it takes 20 ft-lbs to bend the working part of the limb before the hooks open. The force required to open the hooks isn’t that much(the moment of inertia of that part of the limb isn’t that great because the carbon is only a few lams apart). But, as the limb opens, the moment arm lengthens.(this is my reference to the breaker bar-as the hooks open, it’s like the length of the bar getting longer, thus requiring less force). If there is indeed drop off on these limbs, it means the force required to keep the limb bending (due to the moment arm getting longer) is less than the force required to bend the limb due to the moment of inertia.

Pulling this back up for the graph for someone to see from another thread.

I’m very interested in this bow but I’m wondering with only a 26” draw. Would I get any advantage from this design? Is any one shooting this bow with less than a 28” draw. Thanks Mike.

You would have to talk to Border. But they do make short and maybe extra short? Limbs. I am sure they can make you something that will perform great for you.

Mike, they made a Black Douglas for my wife who has a 24in draw length. Her bow is a short riser and the shortest limbs as I recall. Sid spent a lot of time with us getting things right. She has hex 6.7 limbs on her bow.

I am sure they can build you a bow.

Bill

Thanks guys

Borders Bows are formidable and when you get into the Hex7-Hex8 series limbs?...you will not find a more powerful single string bow.

I loved shooting my Hex7.5 Covert Hunter at the TBOF State Championships last month and have been shooting the dickens out of it for well over a year now.

If Jinks keeps a bow for a year,that says a lot about the way it shoots.LOL

Jinx is just waiting for the Hex 9...or Hex 10. Nice bows for sure, but out of my pocket change parameter. I'm not good enough to shoot ultra smooth bows.

Twisted Branch: Yes....it does. :)

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