It's me again... seeking the wisdom of the community...

Starting to make progress on my groups... I'm like a laser at 15... but going past 17 yards my pattern really opens up. I shot at a 6" disk today at 25 and went 2/25 shots. All elevation misses.

Left and right - I'm good. My group is a straight line up and down.

When is my hand going to figure out the range?

When I stay at one yard line... my damn arrows touch... but when I walk around - it's like my eye/brain/left hand are not talking. I read that the bow hand "just knows..." Like throwing a football... Or is this just a repetition thing?

Better to shoot at 15 for a bit, then 20 for a bit and then work back to 25? Or better to vary my shot distance with every shot?

I looked all over for a good instinctive way/method to practice and have not found any. Thoughts?

I'd really like to be able to never leave a 6" disk 0-30... not sure if that's possible for me. Can anyone on this page do that?

Let me ask you this question. When you throw a football where's the mechanical advantage? TO me archery is nothing like throwing.

The best advise I can give you is don't shoot instinctive. Try gapping. Inside of a week you'll be out shooting what your doing now. Most instinctive guys will tell you, they're not much for distance. I've only seen one and he could spank my gapping butt. Part of a lot of instinctive shooting is that TP causing swing draw. Now I can shoot better at 30 than he can at 15.

I don't think there's many instinctive that can do 0 to 30. I couldn't do that now, but see me in September.

Bowmania

On a good day yes, maybe even 4 to 5 inch, but not the norm. If I've been shooting daily then yes, 6 inch is doable. Are you shooting split or three under? I'll have more consistency with three under.

If you learn to gap, you will also become a better 'instinctive' shooter. Funny how that works.

If your left/right is that good you have 75% of the battle won. Now star gap shooting and the other 25% wil come.

Split finger shooter... I'm not interested in gap shooting.

Bowmania - let's compare again in Sept!

Shooter - I think that too... I'll shore up the 25%...

If you are not interested in Gaping, you will need thousands of shots to calibrate your brain. Hundreds from same point before starting to walk around.

Jarhead -

Depends on your skill level and end game.

A new shooter really needs to stay at one (comfortable) distance to hone his form. Classic target archery (aside from Field and 3D) is also typically shot at a few known distances.

For hunting, once form is consistent then mixing it up becomes more important. Bridging into it, yea, I would go with known distances in 5 yard increments, and when you're consistent at the longest range you'll need, then more random shooting is in order.

As far as unknown distances, despite the common BS, if you've trained properly, there's no such thing as an unknown distance with a trad bow.

Viper out.

As far as unknown distances, despite the common BS, if you've trained properly, there's no such thing as an unknown distance with a trad bow.

Right on!

Jarhead...if you don't teach your bow hand where to go how will it know?

Traditional archery isn't as restrictive as many make it out to be. You can't learn too much about such a simple sport.

George, you are right. But knowing what to look for while training it really shortens the learning time and you have more time to really enjoy the arrow hitting the spot, not cursing because you missed again.

That's not archery, sorry to say. That's what a doctor prescribed when you got TP as palliative for the lack of understanding simple things like repeatable form => precision and an aiming system riding the form => accuracy.

Allan, if you are not interested in changing your style or methods than you may not get any better. If dedicated practice were enough to make you realize your potential I would have been a world class shot a long time ago.

Your desires to improve and forgo "gap shooting" (hard aiming) may be conflicting.

What viper said.

Gap shooting is a form of sight shooting. What you gain in accuracy you loose in time it takes to judge distance and set the gap. Too, accuracy depends on your ability to judge distance. Of course, the gap also changes as the critter moves closer or farther away. Not a problem when you have time at the target butt, but can become problematic when hunting. There are always trade offs.

And, as George said, you don't have to use one or the other exclusively. I shoot split vision, but will gap at shots beyond 30 yards.

I shoot like you.Repetition.Learn to shoot free throws eventually you can shoot from unknown distances and eventually shoot free throws with a beach ball or a bowling ball.Repetition.

With your bow going past 17 yards puts you on the seriously curvy part of the parabola. Take baby steps backwards past 17, shooting at each step.

"Gap shooting is a form of sight shooting. What you gain in accuracy you loose in time it takes to judge distance and set the gap. Too, accuracy depends on your ability to judge distance."

I'm assuming you're not a gap shooter. Maybe for those just starting out but experienced gap shooters can judge distance and gap instantly. I gap at the riser and it takes no time to go from a 1" gap to a 1/2" gap and we do it without thinking. It doesn't take that much skill to judge hunting distances and my gaps go from 1" to 0" from 15 to 30 yards.

Jarrhead: I am acquainted with Bowmania, he is an excellent shot. We belong to same club, Ojibwa. But at this point, I agree with the response others have provided. At his point, don't change the way you are shooting yet. I have found that moving closer or farther away a few steps for each consecutive shot, not taking two in a row from the same spot trains me. I am not consciously looking at my arrow. Is that "instinctive"? Who cares, not me. But it works for me. Takes hundreds if not thousands of shots for sufficient consistent accuracy to be developed and to feel confident. I do limit my range to what feels comfortable, confident. And that varies from session to session. One other point, shoot often, but if you feel the least bit fatigued, stop for that session.

If you choose to "not gap", give it a year and expect slow and steady progress. At that point, you just may be as good as a gap shooter....with far less thinking involved and be quick at Target acquisition. Ensure you are now releasing the bowstring cleanly and not introducing movement up and down by plucking the string

No matter how you look at it:

To get the arrow to impact at the spot you want it to hit as you increase the distances, you have to launch the arrow on a higher angle of trajectory.

Just get out there, and do it.

Let your natural tendencies to make that happen take over.

After a while you'll start developing a gap profile in trajectory, and it doesn't matter whether you are doing it consciously, or subconsciously, the end result is the same.

I do submit however, if you are conscious of what you are doing to achieve the varying distances, the learning curve, and time to success will shorten quite a bit.

Rick

Before Byron wrote his book I was at a show and asked him if he shot instinctive or gap. He said I'm instinctive. I then asked him how he made those 100 yards shots. He said those I gap. I then asked what the difference was.

He said, "ON THE SHORT SHOTS I KNOW THE GAP SO WELL, I'M INSTINCTIVE".

So if you look at that statement - pretty much what George said.

As you may know I'm a confirmed gapper. I've learned to gap without knowing the distance. As said above if you have to put distance into the equation it takes too long. I've killed 22 animals on the run - mostly deer, but also moose and elk Oh yea also a 152 inch buck. Those shots were instinctive. I've also killed an elk at 45 and hit a caribou twice at 42. Gapping.

Bowmania

I don't give two rat's arses how you shoot, you aim somehow. If you think you don't, then you are much mistaken. Howard Hill, considered one of the finest instinctive shots in the modern era, had an aiming system called split vision. Hard heads ten to not allow good information to sink in. That it why it's always good to soak up as much good information as you can while you learn good form and some kind of aiming system...be it 'instinctive', gap, or other.

And I will add this regarding that. Any aiming system you use will make you a better shot in what we refer to as instinctive style. Any varied distance shooting you do will calibrate your brain...even stubborn brains to recall those distances without actually knowing what they are. Another fact is shooting marked distance doesn't hurt your not-marked distance shots...it will actually enhance your shooting accuracy. Once you start not believing the old tales from the club, you can start getting mor accurate.

Hells yea! That's what I'm talking about! Thanks for the varied responses.

I stacked my two targets on top of each other this morning and shot 15,20,25,30 over and over... I'm good left and right... and I suck vertically. My bow hand doesn't know. It doesn't know yet? After reading the responses... doesn't seem like that's a good idea "at this phase." My bear hunt is my primary goal... and my outfitter told me to plan on a 20 yard shot. So... for now I'll just make that my primary practice yardage.

I just kinda have it in my head... based on how some great shooters describe their shooting as "throwing a football." Not that shooting and throwing are the same... but when I play catch with my boy... I can hit his hands regardless of him being still or moving in any direction or speed. And I'm just a dad! Some shooters describe it as "the hand just knows..." I've come to realize that it's possible but gapping (of some sort) is easier and much faster to gain proficiency. That said, I didn't sell my Mathews to trade one sighting system for another. I love that many of you have a wall/freezer full of animals using that method...- that's just not what I want.

Of note... I did this today at 17 yards. 45 years on the planet and it's my very first. Unfortunately arrow number one wasn't in the 10 ring... but I can fix a tight group. I just need to have a word with my bow hand...

I sincerely appreciate every post. "None of us is as smart as all of us." - Jarhead

I have shot instinctive all my life. And I have learned over the years it is really nothing more than subconscious Gap shooting. I don't estimate yardage, I don't consciously see arrow tip, or anything else, with my whole "FOCUS" being on the target, but everything else is seen, just not mentally concentrated on. Learn to Gap shoot 1st , do it long enough and you can eventually become a decent "instinctive" shooter.

When I am teaching someone to shoot, when the form comes together and it is time to back up a bit. Quite often, like many people, past 15 yards the bow needs to be lifted a bit. When they seem to have it out for my garage, to save on caulk and paint, I get a red rubber ball and put it on the ground about 7 yards from the target when we are shooting at 20 yards. The garage hits over my four foot target, usually end. I do not say why the red ball is where it is, I just say 'leave it their'. Instinctive gap, unintentional reference point, it's not point of aim because I tell them "Do not ever look at the ball, keep your eye on the spot on the target." Then they stop shooting high or wide. It is okay to accept that the 'gap' is there, just don't stare into the gap or directly at the arrow.

Jarhead, I don't want to put words in Georges mouth, but looks like he's seeing some jarheadedness in you??????

Ever hear about the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

Bowmania

I should have added that in GENERAL, left and right misses are form misses (if your tuned) and up and down misses are aiming misses.

I'd just guess that it's the latter problem.

Bowmania

Bowmania - I'm not sure how I'm "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" when I pulled my new bow (new experience) out of a PVC pipe the evening of 14 Feb.

If you have something constructive - or that works for you- I'd love to hear it... I'm just trying to build a process that works for me.

Besides wasn't it you that told me "By the way, the dumbest thing you can do, is do what I do because I do it. Look at reasons and see if those reasons fit into your sequence/form."

Up-down is still a form miss when the arrow is in the target at 17 yards. It's a small different placement of anchor point when shooting instinctive.

If you’ve gone from zero experience to being able to group into 6” wide at 20 yards in one week....

I'd gladly wager that you’re the only one on the Wall who has done so.

So unless you’re yanking the collective chain here, I’d say keep doing what you’re doing and give it some time.

And I would agree that thinking about what your sight picture looks like at different Known ranges will help you not have to think about it at Unknown ranges. Funny thing, but we humans actually learn better when we’re paying attention to what we’re doing.

Patience, Friend!!’

Roger that. I read somewhere were some legend shot 200 shots "blank" just to work on his form.... THEN he would start shooting practice. I start off with 3-5 bare-shaft shots to make sure I'm good... that's about as much as I can stand.

I do need form practice though... sometimes I clip my nose... other times I don't... that can't be good! There's just a lot to think about... I try to touch my canine with my middle finger and my wrist just barely touches my ear... and "feel back tension."... and stay on target a count or two past the release.

Jarhead, In another thread you started recently, you said you have been "double checking" your sight picture before releasing (or something to that effect). That sounds like you might be gap shooting to me. As many have said above, you need to consciously learn the gaps before your sub-conscious can effectively do it for you. You still focus on the target, but do so while being aware of the tip of your arrow at the same time. This takes time and practice at different ranges. Stick with one range for a while, then change to another. Eventually you will pick it up.

Although probably not the case if you are not stringing vertically at one fixed range, inconsistent draw lengths can cause vertical stringing too. Focus on consistent stance, back tension and anchor point. As with pistol shooting, perfect alignment with the target is not as critical as consistent form.

If this stuff was easy, compounds and X-bows wouldn't be so popular. Keep working at it, be patient and have fun. - John

"I start off with 3-5 bare-shaft shots to make sure I'm good... that's about as much as I can stand."

How hard is to draw that bow for you? Black Bear hunting requirements are around 50lbs bow in most of the places. It's the #50@28" your first bow?

"I read somewhere were some legend shot 200 shots "blank" just to work on his form.... THEN he would start shooting practice." You are referring to Howard Hill and perhaps a number of others. In his book Hunting The Hard Way, he described his aiming method. It is about eye control and being able to point precisely at different objects while keeping the eye focused on an exact point. It takes practice. Then when that ability is transferred to a bow and arrow, one picks an exact 'imaginary' aiming point to hone in on with the last inches of draw. He stated that it was faster to get his level of accuracy than pure instinctive shooting. It takes a effort and time to learn it to a point where it becomes more automatic, but if I can do it, anyone can do it. It may look instinctive and it may even feel like instinctive, but it is not pure instinctive.

Hate to say this, because it's my own issue: vertical is muscles as well as form. Lateral is form.

Free float adjustment and settle in and let her rip.

Ban Cat the feller couldn't put he sentence together right,should have said get on the band wagon with Cat.

His keyboard must have blown up? LOL

I come up and down when I line her up before I release usually.

There is a lot of bum dope above. Viper and George are dependable. Windage, left/right is largely a matter of tuning and form. Elevation is largely mental.

You do NOT need to do conscious range estimation and arithmetic to learn elevation; most archers can learn it fairly quickly if they go about somewhat intuitively and subconsciously. Many of my pupils have done it. Children do it easily. Bookkeepers, engineers and other numbers people may have more trouble.

It sounds as if your form is good to go. Keep up the blank bale practice, the olympians do a lot of it. Then, when you are warmed up try walk back practice, as advocated by four time world longbow champ Steve Morley.

Step back to 7 or 8 yards at shoot an arrow at target center. DO NOT AIM. If you make a good hit, I use a paper plate, stroll back 8 casual steps. Reload and make another shot with best form. If you hit walk back. If you miss, repeat until you hit. When you hit walk back. Take your time and shoot again. Keep going until your quiver is empty.

The idea is to see how far back you can get. Note that you do not know or estimate the distances, do not figure a gap, do not aim. It is all subconscious except that your conscious mind is around back monitoring your back tension.

You want to learn how to hit anything, at any distance, without range estimation, arithmetic or gap shooting. A fair hand can get pretty good back around 40 yards fairly quickly.

Beyond that range the tip of the arrow has come up to near your line of sight, and it makes sense to use it some to aim with. Out around 60 yard or so and beyond it makes more sense to aim and take note of gaps pretty carefully.

Many championships have been won this way, some by me, and mountains of game taken for thousands of years. Range estimation and gap aiming is a recent fad, among number crunchers, mostly, at short to moderate distances. - lbg

If you try this, kindly let us know how it goes for you.

Thanks for your service. Semper fi, do or die, gung ho, gung ho, gung ho! Me, I'm ex navy, gunnery officer. - lbg

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