I’ve been using Joel Turner’s system for a while now and it has all but cured my target panic. That’s the good part. The bad part is that my form sucks. I can hold at anchor all day without feeling the urge to release only because I use the feather to my nose as a trigger to release. I throw a lot of shots to the left. It might only be a few inches but if I miss, it’s left most of the time. I know it’s because I collapse. I think the collapse is caused by drawing back and sinking back into anchor. I know this isn’t good but I just can’t seem to get past this. I videoed myself this evening and even after consciously trying not to sink , I still did, a little. It wasn’t as bad as the first video but any is too much. Any tips on how to fix this? Thanks

Send your video to Arne and see what he recommends.

If you do it the same every time you can tune your bow or arrows to hit center instead of left. I'm trying to figure out how it's possible to collapse if you're pulling your feather to your nose. Just a guess but you may have to much tension in your draw arm. Try focusing on a relaxed draw arm while pulling and let us know what that does to your impact point.

It’s crazy. I’ve been shooting traditional since 2002. I started out shooting split finger and using the Asbell swing draw which worked well at first. I was shooting well in 3D tournaments for a couple years. It wasn’t long before that swing draw screwed me up and I then switched to three times under but by this time I had full blown target panic. I’ve tried every cute out there and finally started using Joel Turner’s system. It cures(or masks) the target panic because I think only about “pulling” until the feather touches my nose and then release. I shot well (for me)at 3D last year using this system but I still don’t hunt much with my recurve because of left misses. I know what the problem is. Even though I’m pulling to get the feather to my nose , it isn’t ideal because I’ve already sunk back into anchor. I’m probably pulling with my arms and not back. I just don’t know. Also, my drawing elbow is high and that might be part of the problem but I can’t get it down. I’ve been shooting like that for so long that it feels natural. I can’t get it down by trying. I’m sure that it’s much harder to get the back muscles involved in the shot with a high elbow. I was just happy to have a cure for the target panic that let me shoot with control and also with decent accuracy in spite of crappy form. I am stuck though and can’t see any real improvement unless I work on the collapsing problem.

I'm pretty sure RayJ was been told about the Bridge Program before. I'd put LOL, but TP is no laughing matter.

You can get that elbow down by clenching the muscles in your stomach. It all starts with a proper stance. It should be done in the 'set' position. Personally I can't believe it works, but it does.

I used to think the elbow should be in line with the arrow. That's what the tiller is for. Your bow arm is pulling against the bow and for the most efficient use of the muscles, you should be able to draw a line from your elbow to a spot about an inch left of you thumb knuckle on your bow hand. It's called a 'draw force line' DFL. When viewed from the side you'll see an elbow slightly high, maybe 2ish inches. Take a look at Brady Ellison in the Lancaster Classic this year.

That DFL to the left of the thumb knuckle totally depend on a proper grip. If your grip is off the DFL should go to the throat of the grip. But if you grip is off that's imparting torque to the system and then the DFL should be l or r of that point. Good idea to have a proper grip.

Bowmania

Collapsing is a term that is often ill-defined by many folks. Whether it's caused by your anchor or non-anchor would need to be seen. Follow through is a part of the form that often gets little attention, and can lend to errant shots. You have too many people on here who will tell you many different "fixes" that may or may not work. The shot process is not complicated as long as you don't make it that way. If you do everything the same, well...you should be fine. Revisit your form and see if you can deduce exactly what isn't flowing.

I am working through a similar issue. Just switched to three under, gap and using the feather touching my nose. I know, I know... a lot of change at one time.

Elevation was great, but I too started hitting left.... URRGGHHHH

Two things made this go away.

1. I started to consciously bring the feather to my nose. Resist the urge to put your nose on the feather.

2. Deep (deeper than you would think) hook. I was hooking at the first knuckle. Now, I am in the middle of the second digit.

The first knuckle worked mostly, but I did creep sometimes, especially when I was tired. The deeper hook has increased my draw length slightly and also makes me less likely to use my arm muscles. Low-and-behold, at full draw the feather touches my nose too.

Just my 2 cents, hope there is an ounce of help in it.

Thanks. I improved a lot just by getting TP under control using Joel’s system. He doesn’t address form at all, just the mental aspect of the shot. I think that if I can change my draw/form to where I’m not overdrawing and then sinking back into anchor then my left misses will decrease. I don’t like not shooting well. It’s very frustrating to miss 5 times in a row with all arrows 4”-5” left of center. Then I might have one high left and then have them back in center. It works for 3D because a 5” miss will still be an 8 most of the time. But, for hunting, a 5” miss might mean a lost deer.

As a guy that's REALLY new to trad shooting I'm the least qualified person on this thread to help... BUT as a guy that's ONLY focused on form right now- I perhaps may be of use.

May I suggest re-building your shooting posture? How I stand (angle to target and my "uprightness") all kinda get reflected in my anchor and sight picture... and my accuracy.

Just a thought - good luck. You'll figure it out.

Sounds like a torque issue...the way the bow is held.

My suggestion is to work with a light poundage bow in order to have complete control, get your form down, and ingrained, then increase poundage when you're ready.

I had a similar issue. Went to a Class with Joel Turner and Tom Clum (Tom is a level 4 NTS coach).

Tom showed me how to engage my scapula to get into a better position. It really helped to lock in my anchor and then be able to pull through the clicker(feather to nose for me).

Do a web search for Brady Ellison form. He has some good videos showing how to accomplish this.

Liquid Tension, I hear where you are coming from. The "cure" I am using works only on the mental side of the shot. Joel explains in his videos the cause of target panic. His system does not deal with form as far as I can tell. I've never taken his course though. I talked with him on the phone a few times though. Working his system allows me to have control of my shot, meaning that I can come to anchor and remain at anchor and let down at any point if the shot doesn't feel right. My accuracy suffers at times because I don't have good shooting form. It is not good to overdraw the string and then sink back into anchor. All back tension is lost. I do start pulling "again" after I reach my anchor point but it's very difficult to reengage the muscles needed to make a good shot. I'm sure people shoot well like this and I can at times but it is not the ideal by any means. It's early in the year and I want to begin some changes to my shooting form. I know all about the "bridge" and I may use it to ingrain my shot once I can figure out how to come to anchor without drawing past and sinking back into it. It's not creep,though that is a problem too. I can see in the video plain as day what I'm doing. I might try to post the video from my phone. I can't do it from my laptop, which I'm on right now.

I can’t post a video from my phone either. It has to come from YouTube apparently.

Just a thought. Try letting down some and see what that does

Ray. I understand what you're saying. If you're drawing with your back, though, and not your arm, you really shouldn't lose back tension when you let your bow arm move a bit forward to anchor. And if you do, just try focusing on transferring the weight back to your back before you aim and shoot.

Regardless, I don't see how your bow arm can collapse if you're pulling through the release by touching the feather to your nose. While you're doing that, you should also be pointing/pushing your bow arm toward the target.

Are you getting a clean release? Plucking can cause the arrow to go left, for a right hand shooter. A lot of folks who pluck, also involuntarily, but commensurately jerk/move their bow hand to the left, for a right hand shooter, at the shot. That, too, results in a shot to the left.

Finally, it may be a mechanical problem. If your tune is marginal, i.e., your arrows marginally too stiff for your bow, anything but a perfect release will send them to the left.

Some things to consider.

Orion, my arrows are spined right. If you saw me draw the bow then you would see what I'm talking about. I overdraw about an inch and sink into anchor and stop. I then start pulling again to get the feather to touch my nose. I sometimes have a hard time getting it to touch and have to let down or fight thru it and I might still make a good shot but sometimes not.I also move my head to get it to touch and that's not good either. I know what to do, I think, I just have a hard time doing it. Today, I started trying to draw from chest level as opposed to face level. It was harder to get the string back but I did not overdraw and sink back to anchor. I also had a much lower elbow doing this. I was able to keep back tension by continuing to pull.I never stopped pulling until the feather hit my nose. I think this might work. I'm going to stay under ten yards for a while and see if I can get comfortable drawing like this. Thanks

Ray -

What heck, I'll give it a go - with the understanding that I can't see you shoot, so this is based solely on your posts.

You still have target panic. All you did was change the symptoms. Most people who have "cured" TP, actually haven't; they just changed the symptoms to something more manageable.

A collapse on release just means you broke tension just before or while you were relaxing your fingers (that the TP part). Sounds simple, but it's the toughest part of the shot. Asking your brain to relax one set of muscles while tightening another isn't something we do naturally. To make matters worse, the collapse can be so slight it might not be visible to a casual observer (or you).

If that's the case, then I would ask you to blank bale to see if the same thing happens. If it doesn't (the release is clean), then you still have TP. If you still collapse, then you have to relearn how to shoot. In the latter case, blank baling is only a small part of the rehab.

Viper out.

Viper X2 ....

Viper, I know I still have target panic. I cannot shoot without using the feather to my nose trigger. I keep my mind on pulling until the feather touches my nose then release. I’ve already been told about the problems that are associated with using g a feather to nose. Head movement, inconsistent draw length, etc...The truth is that this is the only thing that has really allowed me to shoot with control. I can now let down on every shot if I have to. I still have crappy form but at least I can shoot with control. I am now, starting today, going to work on my form. I started beginning my draw from chest height as opposed to head high. That brought my elbow down and helped with the overdrawing/sinking problem. I shot from 5-7 yards using this method and it helped me maintain back tension. I have to never stop pulling back. Once I stop, it’s over. That’s why my other form sucked. I would totally stop pulling when I hit anchor. I would then start pulling again to get feather back to nose. It worked ok but I think I will shoot much better if I can change how I draw the bow and anchor, or actually never really stop at anchor but continue to maintain tension throughout the shot.

What's the draw weight of the bow you're shooting?

Had the same problem exactly. Collapse (badly)and low left arrows resulted. What caused that problem for me was losing back tension before or sometimes during the release. The cause was not maintaining back tension up until, during and AFTER the release. If I focus on back tension even into the follow-thru my collapse disappears. But if I so much as think about letting back tension go I'm screwed. Sounds like you are on the right track.

Ray -

I( hear exactly what you're saying, and you are still collapsing (or breaking tension) on release. That break in tension has nothing to do with your form (the things you described) - it's happening because of your wiring.

I'm willing to bet 10 minutes with a real instructor might fix the problem. Only thing is that after those 10 minutes it's up to you.

Look, I'm not trying to be nasty, just speaking from experience, both with my students and well with me. How you draw the string back just doesn't matter. Only thing that does, in this case, is what happens at the instant of release and that's where you're loosing it.

Viper out.

My bow is 44# @28” and I draw 27.5-28”. I lose an inch by sinking back into anchor. Viper, I agree 100% that I’m collapsing.. I know you are the expert, I’m being serious, and I’m the one asking for help. I agree that part of my problem is anticipating the feather and a collapse at the very moment of release. Heck, I probably do it on every shot and control it to a degree. BUT, I’m certain that overdrawing my bow by an inch, then giving back that inch when I anchor, then stopping all movement for a moment until I begin pulling “for real” can’t be good. Heck, my elbow is at 45 degrees almost. I can’t post a video on here but if you PM me an email address, I will send it to you. It’s terrible.

Ray -

Sent you a PM.

Viper out.

Viper, try again. There is no PM in my box.

Liquid Tension, You did it again. I was just going to pull from Ray's second last post, " I cannot shoot without using the feather to my nose trigger". And it's exactly why Viper's coach suggestion won't work. Mental attitude. AND THAT MAKES HIM 100% CORRECT.

Bowmania

Agree with what's been said since my last post.

Drawing lower across the chest does seem to engage the back muscles a little better I think. At least it does for me.

If your elbow is at 45 degrees at full draw, you may not be drawing far enough. Difficult to get bone on bone alignment then, which helps ease the tension at full draw. Also, the drawing arm elbow at 45 degrees certainly contributes to releasing outward (plucking) rather than rearward, which proper alignment promotes.

When you do your blank bale practice, get close and do it with your eyes closed. With your eyes open, you're still getting visual stimuli that trigger the release/tp. With your eyes closed, your goal is to train your subconscious to feel good alignment and release.

BTW, working with a feather to nose trigger, or a mechanical release, for that matter, is very hard work. Takes a lot of good practice to learn to pull smoothly through whatever mechanism triggers the release.

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