Because of ohios high archery kill numbers due to crossbows its to be buck or doe on all lands till after our week long gun season. Then the last 2 months of archery are to be buck only on public lands to bring public land deer numbers back up.

I have been hunting deer in Ohio for quite a while - way back in the very low deer numbers of the 1970s. So I believe that I have the historical perspective to comment on the current situation.

The Ohio Division of Wildlife makes the doe limit too high for the good of the population. Also, in order to sell excessive numbers of tags. The deer population cannot sustain the hunting pressure. Setting the doe limit artificially high creates a false presumption that the numbers of deer are there and can be legally hunted with success.

For a living, I do wildlife habitat improvement, manage recreational land, wetlands, timberlands, nuisance wild animal trapping, and predator management trapping in Ohio. I also run a fur trapline on approximately 30 farms. Plus I hunt extensively.

I see areas of excellent deer habitat that used to have good numbers of deer that now are almost completely devoid of deer sign. On private land where access is limited, restricted, or prohibited there are deer. I cannot imagine what public land is like. They are killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

They are obviously trying to shift the hunting pressure and deer harvest onto private lands. From my work with private landowners, I don’t know of any or many who have the space, willingness, or patience to allow any additional hunters to have access to their lands.

Possibly this rule, if enacted, may protect some bucks that have already shed their antlers that would be shot as antlerless deer. That happens every year in the second gun season, muzzleloader season, and ongoing archery season.

I would like to hear opinions from others who have information on this topic.

Wow... we are dealing with the crossbows having been allowed in the full archery season the last couple years, here in WI. They already exceeded kills by vertical bows. See other posts on the Wall about this. Now Ohio is trying to deal with it, after the fact. So are we. One trend that I have encountered is that people who never bowhunted have grabbed onto the crossbows and are "learning" in the field. I have had a few tell me of taking long, unwise shots with poor results. And that is just a very small, sad sample.I did hunter ed for over 30 years, certified at all levels... haven't done it a few years now. I doubt if the crossbow license requires a bowhunting certification. Probably just the watered down "add on" we were required to offer at the end of the basic hunter ed course. I will look it up.

We knew this would happen when crossbows were mixed in instead of a simultaneous season of their own. I just posted this for out of state guys so they can plan ahead if they're coming here. That buck only will include muzzle loaders which take very few deer here.

I think its a good thing personally but that's easy for me to say since it really won't effect me other than more deer on public lands in the future.

Archery harvest has long since gone from 'insignificant' to 'a big part of the total.'

Even with permit-only crossbows, last year archers took more deer than regular-season (shotgun) hunters in MA. We archers used to be able to take either sex just by the fact of using a bow but we long since got folded into the antlerless permit system. (Along with late-season black powder shooters.)

Now they're pushing for regular crossbow use and since the money is pushing for it, we'll probably see it. They'll probably decrease the number of doe permits to compensate if harvests go higher than they want.

Some nice bucks to be had but it sucks to pass on a fat doe with a recurve in my hand.

Our verticle bow kill is around 39k,crossbows about 49k. It just too much for 4 month season. The only downside for me is this will hurt buck quality on public land.

It's been a few years since I hunted Ohio. It used to be that you would get a buck tag with your regular license, then could buy a separate doe license for an additional fee at that time as well... all right there over the counter. Are you saying that it will only be possible to get one deer tag for the year, and then it can be used on either a buck or doe? Your choice. One deer, and you're done?

I know where I hunted in Ohio, EHD was killing a bunch of them too.

Last comprehensive review by ODNR I read was after the 2015-16 season.

A few things stood out to me. Total archery kill was about equal to the gun season kill. Crossbows were about 60% of the archery kill.

ODNR admits the number of deer on public hunting grounds has dropped precipitously in the last decade. My experience in a couple of state forests would say the drop is 70-80% in numbers. But many farmers complain of crop damage. (Maybe more of them should let Bowhunters in)

ODNR has surveyed several options to improve the numbers on public lands, like fewer antlerless tags and more restrictive season only for the public hunting land. They claim they cannot get a concensus (no option got more than 45% of the votes). So it appears things will remain the same unless something like the subject of this thread goes through.

They clearly cannot keep doing the same thing for public land hunting and expect a different result than the greatly diminished herds on public hunting land.

I found this on their site....

"Deer bag limits were proposed to remain the same for all but one county. A reduction in the bag limit from three deer to two deer was proposed for Jefferson County. All other county bag limits would remain the same. The ODNR Division of Wildlife also proposed modifications for hunting on public land that would permit hunters to harvest only one antlerless deer from public hunting areas per license year and require that only antlered deer be harvested on public land after Dec. 2. This proposal would allow for some herd growth on public land. The statewide bag limit was proposed to remain at six deer, only one of which may be antlered, and a hunter cannot exceed a county bag limit."

Pa should do similarly. Our public hunting areas (game lands, state parks, state and national forests) at least the ones I've frequented, got hammered long ago during the statewide deer elimination program, and have made minimal comebacks. Problem is, I think that's what they wanted. Many in control of the management of those areas have different values than I do, and their reasons may not be as unadulterated as they'd lead us to believe.

Based on comments I have heard from ODNR game wardens, there is concern some of the restrictions Jeff found on the ODNR site may be meaningless due to the ‘on line’ check in. Specifically the game wardens point out there is no way for them to confirm location of the kill.

They wardens I’ve talked to say most folks are still honest, but when technology makes it easier for folks to bend or break the law, they often will.

Ohio has allowed the use of crossbows in archery season without special medical certificate or other provision for more than 30 years. The crossbow is not going away anytime soon.

Possibly because of our aging society, a greater percentage of the archery season hunters are using crossbows.

Rule of biology = herd growth requires protection of females.

Foolish overharvest on public land leading to foolish overharvest on private land will satisfy the auto insurance lobby which owns the farm bureau which has the ear of the division of wildlife.

Feel free to correct me but I think the crossbow has been legal in Ohio since the mid 1970's (1976?). And it's now just becoming an issue with deer kill?

The limit will still be 6 statewide with county limits of 2-4 deer. It will still be buck or doe till Dec 2nd which is the end of the weeklong gun season. After Dec 2nd it will still be buck or doe on private land but buck only on public land.

Wardens are still out there patrolling pubic lands. Yes a few may break the law but most know better.

That's a pretty lucrative limit. Here in Pa. it's one and done for bucks and always has been. Does are on permit and allotted by WMA. Here in most areas you usually get just one doe permit before the allotment is gone. Down east they have a lot more doe tags to pass around but that also varies by WMA. So the average Joe in Pa. can only kill two deer per year most times if they fill both tags. Of course we have a lot more hunters than Ohio too.

GDS,

You are right, Ohio has hand crossbows for many years. And their presence has been contentious for most of them.

I think we’ve been experiencing what some might call an emerging ‘perfect storm’ for a number of years.

Here’s my top of head list of things/trends that have negatively impacted the deer herd on public hunting land around the state.

ODNR overt decision to reduce the herd size at the state level by I think 30+% led to liberal tag numbers and longer seasons for most equipment options. Crossbows. Spread of leasing companies whose main business is to get large tracts of private land under contract allowing them to ‘sell’ hunting leases. Many private property owners doing hunting leases on their own. What I call firearm technology creep. Such as treating in-line muzzle loaders as primitive weapons, use of center fire rifles in the gun season, etc.

I’m sure there are others. The point to be made with respect to public hunting land is the hunting pressure has increased since many folks who have lost access to private land have no where else to go. The presence of more lethal equipment tends to make it easier, even for the novice to kill a deer. It’s not just crossbows.

Here is an example of the change I’ve seen since the late 1990’s. I’m part of a group of traditional archery folks who have hunted the Zaleski State forest since the mid 1970’s. The herd grew through out the 80’s and probably peaked in the early 90’s. One of the ‘customs’ of our hunts was to drive around the perimeter of the park itself (no hunting in the park located inside the state forest) at night and take pictures of the big bucks. None of us had trail cams back in the day. It was about a 15 mile drive. We would see 15-20 good bucks and a total of 100-125 deer on the route. My last trip to Zaleski was 2015. We did the ‘tour’. No antlered deer and a total of 2 deer, both inside the gate to the park.

I realize this is not a scientific study, but it matches our hunting experience. During our typical weeks in the early years, we would each see 15-20 deer from our stands/blinds each week. And our group typically had a 60-70% success rate. The 2015 produced a total of 2 deer sightings from stands/blinds by 7 hunters. No shots.

It seems to me the ODNR did not anticipate the range of variables that actually went into reducing the herd. And now they appear to be trying to put the spilled toothpaste back into the tube.

Changing regulations is never easy. But I think the ODNR is too slow to consider options and not willing to experiment. Look at the success your home state of PA had with point restrictions. ODNR basically says it can’t work, and ignore PA’s results.

They could try different regs for a season or two at different state forests and see the local impact before moving the ideas to statewide. Some ideas will fail, and other succeed, but if they don’t try, who will know.

I would also point out the dramatic increase in percent of deer taken by all archery equipment. When I started deer hunting with traditional equipment back in the 70’s, the percent of the total deer taken due to all archery equipment was less than 10%. Now it’s right at 50%. Total archery kill is in the 80,000-90,000 range and cross bows are 60% of that.

Hope this helps give a bigger, and maybe better picture. Not trying to start any debate or controversy, just sharing the facts as I see them.

I agree with Fisher. The guys that really put the time in in the woods know how poorly the odnr has done with herd management. 9 deer per year limits and even 6 deer per year limits has depleted our whitetail population in many areas. They report higher harvest numbers, but all hunters in my network report decrease in success. Odnrs goals are increased tag sales and they continue to operate on a fine driven mentality ( this from a very reliable source at odnr). The solution to improved hunting is not as complex as they would have you believe, however other interest groups may have more political sway than the hunters who foot the financial bill. I spend a great deal of time in the woods on my farm as well as other farms in a 50 mile radius. I have felt the need to reduce my harvest, but know that many will take more than they need.

To much is to much. We hace Crossbows in WA now. Gun hunting #s are going down. Why hunt in crazy weather when you ca use a cross bow and work on a tan by the lake in the afternoon

Forgot to add it's still 1 buck per year as always. Sorry bout that.

So if I understand, a hunter can harvest a buck and a doe at some point during hunting season? I guess I think two deer a year per hunter is reasonable.

George, if memory serves, I've had 6 deer tags each of the last few years here in Pa... and not one of them was in an SRA btw. If I went to an SRA, just minutes south, I could get as many as I wanted... but I'd rather head north :^) My tags consisted of a buck tag, doe tags from 1st and 2nd round drawings, and DMAPs in Moraine S.P. and State Forests up at camp.

Rifleman has some important field insight into this situation. Voluntary restraint.

So does George

So does Riverwolf.

So does Jeff.

Management of Ohio’s deer herd is done by managing hunters.

Foolish overharvest on public land leading to foolish overharvest on private land will satisfy the auto insurance lobby which owns the farm bureau which has the ear of the division of wildlife which manages hunters by selling deer tags.

I have hunted my private farm for 30 years. Definitely a decline in numbers in S.W. Ohio for sure. I have imposed mature buck only status until the numbers recover. Not sure the cause but have never been a fan of new check in system.

There is also the issue of more hunter's being pushed in to less and less suitable habitat, where more deer are concentrated.

Much of the Crroked crrek bottom (in fact all of it) that I used to hunt outide Waverly Ohio is now developed, or is now large scale agricultural land.

The land that I used to hunt out Straight Creek in Pike County, same thing.

Tar Hollow, Scioto Trail, Pike Lake State Park see many more hunters these days then they di 25 years ago.

Crossbows may be a problem, but habitat loss is worse.

Well alot is because of leasing. Our public lands are way overcrowded now by people who've always hunted farms before. About 10 years back our herd got overpopulated. Now its back down to about 700k same as its been since the 18 deer limit knocked it down to acceptable limits 10 years ago. The problem is leasing has public lands overrun with hunters. So altho our populations still at around 700k, most are private lands that are underhunted. So guys on public land don't have the numbers. This way they're hoping to bolster public land numbers and still keep private land numbers down. I'm lucky. The public land I sometimes hunt, mainly for bucks, is overrun with deer due to the fact its so thick its hard to hunt plus its archery only. The farms i hunt mostly are overpopulated but they farmers won't allow enough hunters to make much difference.

Our governor has been in an all out war with the division of wildlife since he took office. If you have been paying attention over the last 7 years he has removed all of the employees from their positions that weren't willing to go along with his plans. He has replaced them with unqualified political appointees that will follow his wishes. The farm bureau and Natoinwide insurance share the same building in Columbus. They are one in the same. Both entities want the deer herd reduced. They have Kasich's full attention and cooperation. Kasich is all for big business and could care less about the sportsmen of Ohio. He is also responsible for taking the power away from the DOW to regulate private deer propagation. It is only a matter of time till that causes a CWD outbreak. Mr. Zehringer who is in charge of DNR was put in that position by Kasich. Zehringer was formerly head of the Dept. of Agriculture in Ohio and hated the Division of Wildlife because our biologists weren't willing to reduce deer numbers to suit the farm bureau or Nationwide. All those employees are gone now. If this makes sense to you make sure you vote accordingly this fall because this is purely a political agenda that has been carried out in favor of business since the Kasich era started. Hopefully in a few years with the right people in office the DOW will be able to manage the herd in the benefit of sportsmen instead of being held hostage to the will of politics. That is all for now, there is much more to the story and now that my blood boiling and my rant is over I have to get a cold one.

Many of the deer are in parks and urban areas where hunting is not allowed. That creates artificial population numbers because they are deer that are not available to hunters.

Not all private land is overrun and overpopulated with deer. Many private landowners are frustrated with trespassers, poachers, and property line hunters who shoot every deer that step on the line and then knock on the door asking to track “their” deer.

Owning private land is expensive and requires responsibility. Many times the landowner gets to play less than anyone else.

Crossbow used to be in primitive weapons season. In about 82 or 83 they gave it archery season. The problem now is our gun hunters in the last 8 or 10 years are switching because instead of trying to hunt spooky deer in 6 days n maybe get 1. With crossbows they can hunt calm deer and kill however many they need.

Crossbow used to be in primitive weapons season. In about 82 or 83 they gave it archery season. The problem now is our gun hunters in the last 8 or 10 years are switching because instead of trying to hunt spooky deer in 6 days n maybe get 1. With crossbows they can hunt calm deer and kill however many they need.

Good information Larry. I believe it to be spot on. Kasich has proven to be worthless.

Kasick did exactly that Larry. Last fall they replaced a bunch in one fell swoop.

Yeah Gary, everyone wants to blame all the different weapons that are allowed and their effectiveness. None of that matters if the bag limit is only 1 or 2 deer per year. The method doesn't matter it is the number you can take is. This administration would love to kill off the last deer to benefit business and farmers and that is the bottom line. Until there is a political change bag limits won't be reduced even though the managers at DNR want to. I used to be on the inside and retired early because I couldn't do what was right and my conscience wouldn't let me continue. The Kasich administration is the worst thing that has happened to Ohio.

yep... one tag either sex...ron

Our deer became way overpopulated with a 2 deer limit. So they went to 18 for 2 years to bring it down then dropped it back to 6 statewide.

Hunters could help themselves on this issue, just because you are allowed to kil 6 deer per year doesn’t mean you have to. Show some restraint.

I am lucky to see a nice buck in columbiana county all season and only a handful of deer all season. I said a couple years back they need to do something like one deer a year and you can take it anyway you want no gun season or muzzle loader season . You can just head to the woods with weapon of choice to harvest your deer.

So Ohio has allowed crossbows since he 70's? I didn't know that

So Ohio has allowed crossbows since he 70's? I didn't know that

This crossbow is a different animal from the steel bow, wood stock and rough sight of the 1970’s. Crossbows are legal for the rifle season only here in NV.

Good luck on today's hunters showing restraint on their own. Too many aren't sportsmen, they're competitors. If they hunted hard all season and saw just one deer, they'd kill it.

Sorry for Ohio hunters but it illustrates the point a few were trying to make awhile back when the crossgun argument came up. It's not a bow and it's making a significant impact. It's brought thousands of people to the woods during Archery seasons that would have been at home increasing there cholesterol levels and breathing through there mouths. Hopefully the Wildlife depts. will lump them in with the riflehunters an the whole fad will die off.

I hunted with a crossbow all season and hunted hard and alot and still have my tag. Couldn't pull a bow back . Lack of deer makes me want to not even deer hunt anymore. I feel ohio needs to do something or in columbiana county deer sighting are going to be like pheasant hunting. None out there.

A 1 or 2 deer bag limit took us from 120k in 1980 to over 800k in 2000. Now back down to 700k where it'll stay. Yes since the crossbow got archery season in early 80s public lands in many counties don't have big numbers. That's what this rule is trying to fix. Ralph ur in a county with a very high rate of leasing. That hurts hunting for everyone else. I hunt logan,morrow,and delaware counties and see alot more deer than the 80s or 90. Yes some counties and some public areas are down but state wide our numbers are great for the amount of habitat.

Crossbow were in primitive weapon season in the 70s and most guys used ml instead. Yes they make a difference about 40k per year difference

Just think in 5 or 6 years a city kid will be able to see a deer on public land in Ohio.

When humans start trying to manage part of the eco system, things usually get messed up. I think this is due to the fact folks have a tendency to over simplify and pick one or two variables in an attempt to alter part of nature’s delicate balance. And, the ‘one size fits all’ philosophy does not take into account the major differences in things like density of the human population, land use, or amount of leasing. The proposed limit of number/type of deer allowed to be taken on public land is the first time ODNR has recognized county wide limits that govern public and private land don’t work. Local farmers and insurance companies may benefit, but the deer herd on public land has suffered.

ODNR has had it’s share of these problems. They know public land deer numbers are way down, perhaps as much as 70-80% since 2000. Other than the proposed limits on public land which started this thread, they have done little or nothing to fix this. The reason they claim is they can get no consensus in the surveys that test different scenarios among folks who have purchased deer tags.

Remember, this is the state agency who still thinks point restrictions don’t work even though Pennsylvania and other states have shown they can dramatically increase the number of good bucks.

Ohio has only a small fraction of the public hunting acreage found in Pa. But I think there are enough state park/forest locations for the ODNR to consider some experiments. Here are a couple of illustrations of things they might try. I’m not advocating for any of them, just trying to show examples.

They could try the no anterless deer proposal on one or two parks and monitor the results over a couple of years. If successful, they would have some data that could be used to help sell the rule statewide.

They could select one park/forest in each region of the state, and set it up only for primitive weapons. Again, monitor the results and share real data.

I think a big piece of the problem with their ‘surveys’ is they are asking folks to express opinions about opinions. There is no real data for folks who take the survey to use to make clear decisions on which policy they might prefer.

Right now there appears to be ‘paralysis by analysis’ and nothing is changing.

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