Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Just Another Fun Penetration Test

Messages posted to thread:
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
tradmt 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
tradmt 07-Feb-18
RymanCat 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
Andy Man 07-Feb-18
tradmt 07-Feb-18
Longcruise 07-Feb-18
charley 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
DarrinG 07-Feb-18
MnM 07-Feb-18
Mpdh 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
tradmt 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
Jim Keller 07-Feb-18
Dry Bones 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
tradmt 07-Feb-18
StikBow 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
David McLendon 07-Feb-18
Andy Man 07-Feb-18
Andy Man 07-Feb-18
Jinkster 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
GF 07-Feb-18
David McLendon 07-Feb-18
Linecutter 07-Feb-18
Ranman 07-Feb-18
Andy Man 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
Sunset Hill 07-Feb-18
Andy Man 07-Feb-18
The Whittler 07-Feb-18
Sunset Hill 07-Feb-18
Sunset Hill 07-Feb-18
Sunset Hill 07-Feb-18
lefty4 07-Feb-18
Cuzen Jeff 07-Feb-18
sir misalots 07-Feb-18
Bowmania 07-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 07-Feb-18
Draven 07-Feb-18
Tomas de Gato 07-Feb-18
Sunset Hill 08-Feb-18
tradmt 08-Feb-18
Mike E 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
Franklin 08-Feb-18
Longtrad 08-Feb-18
shade mt 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
shade mt 08-Feb-18
shade mt 08-Feb-18
lefty4 08-Feb-18
GF 08-Feb-18
tradmt 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
shade mt 08-Feb-18
shade mt 08-Feb-18
larryhatfield 08-Feb-18
Longcruise 08-Feb-18
tradmt 08-Feb-18
shade mt 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
GF 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
Jack 08-Feb-18
tradmt 08-Feb-18
Longtrad 08-Feb-18
tradmt 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
Ranman 08-Feb-18
tradmt 08-Feb-18
Orion 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
David McLendon 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
Greyfox 08-Feb-18
sqrlgtr 08-Feb-18
hawkeye in PA 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
Sunset Hill 08-Feb-18
Sunset Hill 08-Feb-18
Sunset Hill 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
tradmt 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
tradmt 08-Feb-18
Dry Bones 08-Feb-18
sqrlgtr 08-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 08-Feb-18
tradmt 08-Feb-18
moosehunter 08-Feb-18
Tomas de Gato 08-Feb-18
Birdy 09-Feb-18
Sunset Hill 09-Feb-18
GF 09-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 09-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 09-Feb-18
Mike E 09-Feb-18
Orion 09-Feb-18
r.grider 09-Feb-18
Longtrad 09-Feb-18
GF 09-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 09-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 09-Feb-18
Orion 09-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 10-Feb-18
two4hooking 12-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 12-Feb-18
Andy Man 12-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 12-Feb-18
GF 12-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 12-Feb-18
two4hooking 12-Feb-18
two4hooking 13-Feb-18
two4hooking 13-Feb-18
two4hooking 13-Feb-18
3arrows 13-Feb-18
two4hooking 13-Feb-18
Bob Rowlands 13-Feb-18
tradmt 13-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 13-Feb-18
Ontario Longbow 13-Feb-18
Gun 15-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 17-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 17-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 17-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 17-Feb-18
hawkeye in PA 18-Feb-18
Biathlonman 18-Feb-18
Biathlonman 18-Feb-18
Biathlonman 18-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 18-Feb-18
lefty4 18-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 19-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 19-Feb-18
From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




Try this. I'm begging you to. 8^)

You can get the drums for free at most farm coop supply stores.

Rick

From: tradmt
Date: 07-Feb-18




Now shoot it with 30% FOC. :)

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




No. You shoot it with 30% foc. 8^)

Rick

From: tradmt
Date: 07-Feb-18




Dang it Rick! You already have a barrel and I know you have the arrows! Just shoot the damn thing! :)

Pretty cool watching that barrel move when you thumped it.

From: RymanCat
Date: 07-Feb-18




All go jump I barrel more BS. Come on Rick way are you trying to sell all this. LOL

Any holes in that barrel you used as a gravity feeder? LOL

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




Hey Wayne.

I actually have a 1415 grain arrow with 30% foc.

I built it up, and tuned it up a while back for testing, but never got around to doing it. I just remembered it, and pulled it out.

I'm going to run the same test with it.

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




OK, I just repeated the test exactly as the first time, but with a 1415 grain arrow with 30% foc. What do you think the results were?

Glenn (RymanKitty), you need to go lay down. 8^)

Rick

From: Andy Man
Date: 07-Feb-18




no better maybe worse if arrow larger diameter- friction of barrel stoping the arrow

From: tradmt
Date: 07-Feb-18




Wow that's heavy. I don't know, I might be inclined to think it's worse, even if the arrow dia is same. That's some serious gpp.

From: Longcruise
Date: 07-Feb-18




Complete pass through is my guess.

Be nice if we could see the chrono numbers.

From: charley
Date: 07-Feb-18




I got a couple drums around the farm. I'll give it a try Friday afternoon. By the way, I bet 1400gr arrow won't do any better, those barrels are tough, honestly suprised me you did so well.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




Chrono numbers are irrelevant when only trying to make a comparison from the same bow with different arrows, but the 640 grain arrow averages a bit over 200 fps. Don't know the speed of the 1415gr arrow, but it's obviously much slower.

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




Here's the video, and results for the heavy & high foc arrow.

Rick

From: DarrinG
Date: 07-Feb-18




Aint no way I'm ruining a good barrel. Those things are to valuable around a farm. :)

From: MnM
Date: 07-Feb-18




Not enough poundage (speed) to make use of the kinetic energy?

From: Mpdh
Date: 07-Feb-18




Question for Rick. Does the barrel move when hit by the arrow? Do you think penetration would be greater if the barrel was weighed or fixed in place?

MP

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




Darrin, I have about 2 dozen of them. I get them for free from my local coop.

Rick

From: tradmt
Date: 07-Feb-18




Ha, yeah, kinda expected less. Cool! Did the arrow turn the barrel or was that just some camera trickery?

It's funny though how a 1000+ grain fish arrow penetrates fish better than 500 out of a fifty pound bow.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




By the way, the broadhead in the second test weighs 630 grain all by itself, but it's the same width as the first at 1.125"

Rick

From: Jim Keller
Date: 07-Feb-18




Pretty interesting Rick. Thanks for sharing this with us. Jim

From: Dry Bones
Date: 07-Feb-18




That second shot was the one I was waiting on Rick. Guess the law of diminishing returns comes into play. As common sense says- 1415 gains is a HEAVY arrow. I also was curious at the drop at 20 yards, thanks for the write up in the end.

-Bones

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




[[[ tradmt: "Ha, yeah, kinda expected less. Cool! Did the arrow turn the barrel or was that just some camera trickery?

It's funny though how a 1000+ grain fish arrow penetrates fish better than 500 out of a fifty pound bow." ]]]

The arrow actually hit right on line, but below the first shot. So much of it sticking out on the front side when it came to the dead stop, that it whipped, and turned the barrel.

I've bowfished a lot with regular weight hunting arrows. They have always done just as good as them 1000 grain fiberglass jobs.

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




Another note:

The bow is actually 69.5# at my draw, making the second/heavy arrow come in at just a tad over 20.3 gpp.

Rick

From: tradmt
Date: 07-Feb-18




That's what I had figured, about 20gpp. As long as I don't have to go through a few feet of water regular arrows do work fine.

From: StikBow
Date: 07-Feb-18




I had my heavy FOC arrows drop 10 inches low at 20, too. Lots of fun, but there is a point of dismissing returns in these efforts.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




Wayne, you gotta keep in mind, my regular arrows weigh close to 650 grains, so that's probably why.

I've shot carp (big carp. 20 to 40 lbs) a good 3 to 4 ft down before with no problem at all.

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




I really REALLY want to see what some of you guys get in results with your hunting rigs on this test, and would absolute LOVE to see some of you guys with the dangerous game setups to do it.

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




In my opinion, the only way I would get better penetration than with the 640gr arrow would be to go up in both draw weight & arrow weight while maintaining the between 9 & 10 gpp the 640gr gives me.

Rick

From: David McLendon
Date: 07-Feb-18




Tells me that I'm right where I need to be with 14.9% and 622 grains and 9.2gpp, past results support that.

From: Andy Man
Date: 07-Feb-18




grease the shaft with KY

From: Andy Man
Date: 07-Feb-18




the plastic is grabbing the shaft

From: Jinkster
Date: 07-Feb-18




Rick?...FWIW?...

Heavy Arrows Rock but?...the tipping point for me and mine has been somewhere around 14gpp-16gpp (pending bow) where any heavier than that?...and the uptrend in Momentum/KE starts taking a nosedive and the arrow goes from frieght train too slug.

You were pumping well beyond that at 20+gpp so I for one was not shocked by the dismal results of such.

BTW?....thanks...cool tests. :)

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




James, the broadheads punched a much bigger hole than the shafts are in diameter on both shafts.

Wouldn't have mattered on the second/heavy arrow anyway, because the broadhead didn't even make it all the way through one side.

Rick

From: GF
Date: 07-Feb-18




So....

How does that heavy shaft do in bare-shaft testing?

And would you be able to come up with two arrows of similar/identical weight that are equally well (and correctly) spined for that bow and with comparable difference in the FOC???

One possibility with that 20 GPP ICBM you’re launching....

If the broadhead penetrates slowly, the barrel can start moving in response to the impact. If the BH penetrates slowly enough, that allows time for the barrel to get up to a high enough rate of travel to really take the edge off of the penetration.

Same principle applies to being able to get a pass-through on a deer but not a squirrel, or the fact that 405 grain slugs coming out of my .45/70 at 1300 FPS will print higher at 60m than the 300-grainers coming out at 1800; barrel time allows the muzzle to rise higher before the bullet is airborne, resulting in a higher POI DESPITE the 30% lower muzzle velocity.

So for that reason, I’d love to see comparable mass & velocity between the normal and high/extreme FOC projectiles...

Not disagreeing, just asking the next logical question!!

From: David McLendon
Date: 07-Feb-18




Plastic may have grabbed the shaft on the first one, but definitely not on the big dog as it failed to even clear the head through the front side. so ;P

From: Linecutter
Date: 07-Feb-18




What I found interesting was it gave a good indication of the amount of rotation of a single bevel broadhead going through solid material. The incoming side was roughly parallel to the ground. I doubt it rotated through the center of the barrel since you had to knock it out with a rubber mallot. It exited the barrel with roughly 45 degrees of rotation. The initial rotation would have finished when the broadhead exited the first side and finished when it exited the out going side. That I found interesting with how much it rotated going through only two layers of solid matter. Makes me wonder how much it really rotates going through the tissue matter of a deer or other animal. 360 degrees? More maybe a little less? DANNY

From: Ranman
Date: 07-Feb-18




If the rain lets up, gonna give it a try. I have one of those plastic barrels.

From: Andy Man
Date: 07-Feb-18




? said you had to unscrew the head and drive the shaft out with a mallet

something grabbing it

round hole with a slit

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




James, that was due to the outsert on the first shaft. The shaft itself wasn't a problem.

I guess greasing up that outsert might have aided in penetration, but I'm not going to grease up my arrows when hunting, so . . .

8^)

Rick

From: Sunset Hill
Date: 07-Feb-18

Sunset Hill's embedded Photo



Sounded like a fun thing to do. Ran home after work, fighting daylight so I couldn't video. Specs: 60# string follow longbow, 590 gr. 23/64 cedar arrow, 27 1/4" bop 9.8 gpi, 34.4 % foc (balance point at 23"), file sharpened 145 gr. Hunters Head Shot several times, consistent results. Heads penetrated the barrel and could see the back of the head usually. I think it's a 55 gal. drum, definitely more than 30 gal so don't know if the plastic is the same thickness. But this combo gives me complete penetration on hogs, deer, and moose. Don't have a clue on arrow speed.

From: Andy Man
Date: 07-Feb-18




ok

From: The Whittler
Date: 07-Feb-18




It tells me speed has a lot more to do with it then weight.

Rick B, I wonder what a 556gr = 8gpp would do.

From: Sunset Hill
Date: 07-Feb-18

Sunset Hill's embedded Photo



From: Sunset Hill
Date: 07-Feb-18

Sunset Hill's embedded Photo



From: Sunset Hill
Date: 07-Feb-18

Sunset Hill's embedded Photo



From: lefty4
Date: 07-Feb-18




Good tests Rick.

I would think that the wider Bishop head would open up the slit a little more to better allow the shaft to pass through. Can you put that Grizzly head on the same shaft as the first test and see how how it compares to the Bishop?

I know that broadhead switch doesn't much change the arrow weight or FOC but might explain a little about how the plastic might be affecting the penetration.

Thanks to you and Nate for the videos.

From: Cuzen Jeff
Date: 07-Feb-18




Would love to see this test out of some 30 and 40 pound bows. Love your post Rick.

From: sir misalots
Date: 07-Feb-18




shooting blue barrels is frowned upon around here

To many house there fighting roosters in them:)

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 07-Feb-18




Sorry Rick, I don't get it??? What are you comparing, you've got two different variables. Light arrow and a bad broadhead for penetration vs a heavy arrow and a good broadhead. What are you trying to prove? I admit I'm confuse with the results.

Shoot the same arrow with two different BH's or shoot the same Bh with two different arrows.

It's really like your three blade test vs two blade. Don't know how the 3 beat the 2.

I'm beginning to think you shot one with a bow at 69.5 and the other with a compound at 69.5. What gives LOL?

YOu got me believing I don't know jack.

Bowmania

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Feb-18




Nathan, that plastic barrel is a lot tougher than it looks, huh.

I'll probably do some more testing with different arrows configs sometime down the road, but I really want to see you guys doing some like Nathan did.

The test is easy, the barrels are easy to come buy, and all you have to do is shoot it, so get out there & do it. 8^)

Rick

P.S.

The barrels make good trash barrels for the shop, or around the house, and a trash barrel don't mind having a few holes in it. 8^)

From: Draven
Date: 07-Feb-18




Rick, great test. Bowmania, his test showed that no matter how sharp a broadhead and how heavy an arrow is, if it doesn't have oomph will not be able to get through a blue barrel. To make it through you need a balance of 3 factors: broadhead sharpness, arrow weight and speed.

From: Tomas de Gato
Date: 07-Feb-18




Fascinating. The law of diminishing returns only makes sense. I consider myself throwing three different objects at a person. The first a ping pong ball, the second a baseball, and the third a 50lbs bowling ball. The ping pong ball would bounce off the person, the baseball would hurt like a mofo, and the bowling ball, well i'm not strong enough to throw it. With adequate force the bowling ball would become the more devastating object.

Back to the test, at some point a heavier poundage bow would cause the 1415gr arrow to penetrate more. I would bet that a 100# bow shooting the the 1415gr arrow (14.15gpp) would be close to the sweet spot that would penetrate the most.

So, the key is finding the sweet spot from your bow. Would that bring us back to the highest achievable kinetic energy from your bow and draw length? Kinetic energy calculator - https://www.realtree.com/kinetic-energy- and-momentum-calculator

From: Sunset Hill
Date: 08-Feb-18




Rick...now you sound like my mom..."Nathan" (LOL)

So basically I got the same penetration as Rick also with a skinny broadhead,but a lighter bow, and arrow less than 1/2 the weight of his heavyweight. I guess it proves that keying only on heavy arrows isn't the entire answer... arrow speed along with broadhead design is also very important in the penetration equation. Just like we've always known ??

From: tradmt
Date: 08-Feb-18




It shows that 20gpp is well beyond diminished returns.

From: Mike E
Date: 08-Feb-18




Interesting.... got an 80lb bow?

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




Todd, I'm not trying to prove anything. Just thought about it, and thought it would be interesting to do, so I did, and shared it, and thought it would be even more interesting to get others to do it, and share also.

If it winds up proving something, then all the better.

Same 69# recurve both shots. LOL, I don't own a compound.

As far as the bad broadhead for penetration thing is concerned, these little Bishop 175gr single bevel penetrate really well. Definitely nothing bad about them.

I'll try to do the test again soon with the same 640gr arrow, and a 175gr Grizzly single bevel. The Grizzly has closer to the 3:1 ratio said to be the best for penetration, so we'll see. I'll also do it with a 175gr 3 blade.

Rick

From: Franklin
Date: 08-Feb-18




In order to compare apples to apples you should be using a product that is consistent throughout and you must hit it in the EXACT same spot. That 2nd shot was below the first ring and it is thicker in that spot on these barrels. That also didn`t appear to be a dead on hit.

There is a diminished point of weight over speed...the mathematical formula is....FPS x FPS x total arrow weight in grains Divided by 450,240. This gives you Foot pounds of Kinetic Energy which is what drives penetration.

From: Longtrad
Date: 08-Feb-18




Wow that's pretty cool, id love to try but need to find a barrel first.

I would like to see repeat shots where you change the broadheads, to test both 3 blade, single bevels, and double bevel 2 blades of the same weight against each other

thanks for the entertainment Rick!

From: shade mt
Date: 08-Feb-18




I just came across this thread, as I scrolled down over the post and video I knew pretty well what the results were going to be.

Good test Rick, although its not really scientific its good enough to prove once again the age old advice of arrows around 10 gr per pound of draw weight as day in day out your best bet.

The thing that has me scratching my head is all the advice out there...

I notice that generally the guys that are pre- compound and have been doing this all their life usually are pretty uniform in their thinking. And line up pretty well with my own 40 years of shooting stuff with stickbows.

then you have all this "new" super fast, super light, or extra heavy extra slow advice , and things just get kinda clouded.

Not sure why we think we need to re-invent the wheel?

I have internet...I watch the videos. I see pretty many compound shooters that fail to get as good a penetration as I do? some do, some don't.

Then I watched a elk hunting video of a guy that had switched from a wheelbow to a recurve and he was using a really heavy arrow for his draw weight. His advice was pro heavy arrow and FOC.

I was skeptical....

He shot his elk and it ran off with half the arrow sticking out. He had made a good shot, and it didn't go far. He once again praised his choice of extra heavy arrow.

I hate to rain on the guys parade but my 55# recurve with a 525 gr grain arrow would have buried itself.

most of this advice on extremes I've come to ignore. I've simply shot through to many deer not to.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




Franklin:

I know the formula, and I wasn't trying to "compare" to anything.

I had no plans to shoot any other arrow, than that of my hunting rig, but shot the heavy & high foc arrow due to a request.

I simply wanted to see what my hunting setup would do on the barrel, and wanted to see what other's hunting setups would do also.

Rick

P.S.

The barrel thickness at the spots for both arrows is exactly the same, and the second arrow hit square. It just buckled & whipped because there was so much of it still sticking out when it came to the sudden stop.

From: shade mt
Date: 08-Feb-18




In all honesty I really believe a lot of penetration problems are due to poor arrow flight at the time....or extreme light or extreme heavy for the bow poundage.

As far as deer? it is fairly easy to shoot clean through them.

not sure how many years ago it was maybe 5 now? don't know. But i used arrows lighter than I normally use. The bow was a r/d longbow draw weight was between just under 54# I was using a 2016 aluminum and 100 gr muzzys, with no other weight I can't remember the exact weight but the were under 500 gr I know.

Anyway I shot 5 deer that year with that setup in MD and PA....not a single arrow stayed in the deer. 4 blew clean through in and out, and 1 went through but stayed in the deer but was only held by the fletch and fell out when she turned and ran.

I also shot a doe last year that the arrow hit on the point of the shoulder and angled back and came out the off side. I didn't get in and out penetration but that 500 gr carbon muscled through some pretty tough stuff to penetrate as far as it did. I'm fairly certain I posted a pic of it on here. she dropped in sight. as did all the other 5 with the 2016's.

So I kinda go by what I see....And what I see are a lot of folks not getting the penetration they should or could.

From: shade mt
Date: 08-Feb-18




I also believe that in the pressure and excitement of shooting at game guys sometimes snap shoot and fail to reach anchor properly, which reeks havoc with a tuned setup. And robs them of penetration.

It is fairly easy to shorten your draw length by an inch or possibly even more if you don't use good form and hit your anchor properly.

From: lefty4
Date: 08-Feb-18




I am not sure what this test proves or disproves. And Rick admitted it was more of a curiosity test than a penetration test. For sure the fish arrow is an extreme and still lots of variables involved.

But you have to admit that Rick's hunting arrow performance was pretty impressive. No wonder he has little difficulty killing hogs and whatever else. Was it the broadhead, the arrow weight, the arrow FOC, or the bow weight? Yes.

This will be a good learning thread, especially for those of us that already know everything.

From: GF
Date: 08-Feb-18




Just looking at Shade’s post right there and scratching my head a bit…

If you are properly tuned to begin with, an inch shouldn’t matter much, should it?

Plenty of our By God Experts here have stated that we need only match our arrow spine to within about #5 of “correct” for the bow in question, and that we can get satisfactory flight despite the discrepancy. But if you have selected an arrow that’s too stiff to begin with (as I fully expect that most people do), THEN I’d agree that short-drawing would compound the issue...

And this is of interest to me because I’ve been working on that prone shot, which I know costs me some DL. As does a hard cant as we often practice on the FS threads.... These are great hunting shots to be able to make, but if you’re #10 overspined to begin with.....

And I’m going to guess that 90% of poor penetration is spine-related.... short of mechanical broadheads anyway.

From: tradmt
Date: 08-Feb-18




Guys, this proves nothing, and Rick wasn't trying to prove anything, the one take away from this is that 20gpp is too much, at least for modern traditional bows today.

It would be interesting to see results from 40-50# bows comparing 8-12 or so GPP to see where diminished returns begin. I think bow designs will vary this number somewhat but I think we will all be within a point or two.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




Wayne, you're right to a point.

I was trying to prove to "myself" what my rig would do on the drum. It met, and exceeded my expectations, and I want to see what others rigs will do.

That's it in a nut shell.

I'm hoping Ken Moody will chime in here, and maybe even shoot a drum with his dangerous game rig. I have no doubt it will be very impressive, but I want to SEE it.

Rick

From: shade mt
Date: 08-Feb-18




GF...my post was speculation, and not fact. All I know is....I've seen all the video's. ..And like you I'm scratching my head?

I'm thinking what is the difference that enables me to blow right through a deer, not just 1 deer, but most deer, while someone else is only getting a half an arrow penetration?

is it bow poundage? is it short drawing your bow, depriving it of some efficiency? and changing the bows tuning? if short drawing a bow is ok then why preach form? why not just use any old anchor within an inch?

I'm not taking away from what you say, but I'm not convinced short drawing your bow wouldn't rob you of some penetration.

I mean in doing so you have dropped your bow poundage by a couple pounds, you have changed the required spine of your bow , at least a little, if your already border line to stiff, now you got issues with your arrow fishtailing possibly, and due to the fact that your an inch short of your proper anchor its very likely you didn't get off a clean release? dunno but my country boy common sense logic tells me not reaching your anchor properly and short drawing your bow is going to hurt penetration rather than help it.

sounds at least logical don't it?

From: shade mt
Date: 08-Feb-18




I have many times thought I should get set up to video if for no other reason than to subdue some myths.

But not sure it would matter...LOL I mean Rick just got done shooting two different arrows through a barrel with totally different results and you guys are still questioning it!

What do you want to bet that you could get as scientific as you want.....and you'd still end up with his result.?

not so sure half of you still wouldn't believe it...lol

From: larryhatfield
Date: 08-Feb-18




Rick, did you ever shoot the flight arrow?

From: Longcruise
Date: 08-Feb-18




I can't get the second video to play???

I think the barrel is kinda like a turkey. Penetration is not always good due to the relative light weight and physical reaction of the turkey whereas the same setup can whiz through a deer because the impact of the arrow does not physically change the position or reaction of the animal being hit.

So, although I can't view the video, I'm suggesting that the described whipping of the arrow that moved the drum had a major effect on penetration. The movement of the barrel began immediately upon impact (it's not physically possible to be otherwise). The reaction of the barrel created a condition similar to striking a target with an arrow that is flying far from straight.

A do-over with the barrel anchored very firmly with something backing it to prevent movement might have different results!

From: tradmt
Date: 08-Feb-18




I don't really see much questioning. One could question the tune of the 1400 grainer as GF did, nothing wrong with that but I'm betting Rick was shooting tuned arrows just because I feel Rick knows what he's doing.

I don't see this as any real comparison either, it proved nothing other than 20gpp is too much. Would be more interesting to see 30% FOC at the same weight but I doubt it's going to be much different in this barrel. It will be more interesting to see the results from arrows that don't fully penetrate both sides.

I'm not sure why some see it as reinventing the wheel here, it's simply learning what a setup or setups are capable of and how they can be improved or not.

From: shade mt
Date: 08-Feb-18




That was a good reasonable post tradmt....I agree.

I guess what gets me scratching my head is the subject of penetration is so often discussed. I like the fact that some of you guys actually take the time to test things like this.

Sometimes I just need to sit back and realize I really don't know, or should even be adding to penetration subjects, simply because I haven't really ever tried the extremes in anything.

I mentioned the deer shot with 2016's the other year but that was hardly an extreme.

I have never shot a deer with a bow under 50# or with an arrow weighing less than I'm guessing 425 gr or more than 650ish or so gr (74# draw weight).

And my broadheads are ALWAYS! shaving sharp. So I've never really tested the limits of anything.

But there are many on here that use lighter poundage bows or way heavy, or way light arrows...and such discussions would be beneficial to them. My apologies if I'm out of line with my rather average assumptions.

I'll tell you what really gets me scratching my head though.....and that's that the compound bow guys sometimes have the same discussions! I for the life of me can't understand why on earth you'd ever have to worry about penetration at the speeds of modern compound bows.

Is it any wonder then that so many struggle with penetration out of a stickbow?

thanks for the test Rick enjoyed watching.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18

Rick Barbee's embedded Photo



A friend of mine just sent me his result of the barrel test.

31" / 8.2 gpi shaft

100gr Brass insert

300gr tuffhead

678gr total weight arrow

27.9% FOC

69# draw weight at 27"

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




That tuffhead is a 225gr with a 75gr screw in adapter for the total of 300gr

Rick

From: GF
Date: 08-Feb-18




So it looks like his set-up was nearly identical except for the FOC... and the fact that you drew 2 1/2 inches longer and you got about 2 1/2 inches more penetration.

That makes sense to me!

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




Yes Matt, and his tuffhead is closer to the coveted 3:1 ratio.

Rick

From: Jack
Date: 08-Feb-18




Nice video Rick, I enjoyed it! When I was younger I tried shooting several things with my bow setups also. Heck, I even shot 55 gal. steel drums just to see if my broadhead would penetrate it. The things we shot and the results were always enlightening and fun to me and my best friend. Did your video prove anything? Yes! Those plastic blue barrels aren't near as likely to charge you if you wound one!!!! Have Fun Brother and thanks for the video!

From: tradmt
Date: 08-Feb-18




Cool, not bad for 27" draw. If Rick shot good heads like those TuffHeads he might shoot through two barrels! :)

Shade, I agree on the compound guys as well. It's a matter of extremes and extremes in either direction don't seem to work efficiently and we can probably relate that to most things in life.

From: Longtrad
Date: 08-Feb-18




I wonder if the single bevel would actually work against it on such a medium, I'd sure like to see single bevel compared to double bevel on this barrel. Maybe it wouldn't make any difference? would be fun to see either way.

From: tradmt
Date: 08-Feb-18




Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing, it has to be creating a bind in that plastic.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




Guys, that plastic is pretty slick, but there may be some friction drag due to the heating as the broadhead, and arrow go through.

Even then, wouldn't that heating soften the plastic for a nano second, thus relieving that torque some?

If they will drag in the plastic due to their rotational torque, would they not then drag somewhat in other mediums also? Like bone?

All questions, that I can't answer. All I know is, if/when others do the test, we have all shot into the same thing, and we'll see what the results are.

Rick

From: Ranman
Date: 08-Feb-18

Ranman's embedded Photo



Shot a couple times at the blue drum, and was surprised with the results. Centaur Chimera 62" 47@29, Easton axis trad 500, footed, Grizzly rh bevel 150gn. Total arrow wt 520gns, 15.5% FOC. When I hit the drum head on I had a 11" of shaft inside. When I hit at an angle to one side, the arrow went through and stuck halfway into the back side.. big blue is tough.. thanks Rick, fun idea.

From: tradmt
Date: 08-Feb-18




Yes, I think they do drag in every medium, although bone is certainly different than that plastic or even foam and single bevels tend to split them open. But how much do they drag? Does it matter? Personally, I don't think it does, in fact I remember when you did that first foam test with a Grizz and VPA 3 blade, I really thought due to the single bevel torque in that tight foam that slick VPA might have the edge, I was wrong by a mile. I think both of us were surprised Rick.

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Feb-18




Think the testers so far have proven that the plastic barrels are tough (to penetrate) regardless of the arrow/broadhead used.

Would like to see some tests with the barrel stabilized vs not stabilized, i.e., one with a couple of concrete blocks in the bottom, the other without. If the barrel moves when hit, the movement will greatly reduce penetration.

Too, to me, in this medium, it seems broadhead shape plays a substantial role. Whether it's more important than arrow weight or speed, I don't know.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




Just finished uploading videos for two more test shots.

One shot with a 175gr Grizzly Right Single Bevel, and one with a 175gr VPA 3 Blade.

I used the same 640gr arrow that I used for the 175gr Bishop Archery Right Single Bevel.

Everything about this arrow is the same, except for the changing of the broadheads.

What does this all prove? Probably nothing to a lot of folks.

What did I learn from it? I learned I can have full confidence in my hunting rig for most animals, and I learned, that the only real significant difference the broadheads make are the shape of the holes they cut.

Here's the Grizzly video:

Here's the VPA video:

Enjoy !

Rick

From: David McLendon
Date: 08-Feb-18




Looks like the 3 blade VPA penetrated a bit better.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




Glad you're enjoying them Ed, and you're quite welcome.

Anything for my LW Brothers & Sisters. Well, within reason of course. 8^)

Rick

From: Greyfox
Date: 08-Feb-18




Very interesting.

From: sqrlgtr
Date: 08-Feb-18




Im really enjoying these videos.could you point me in the right direction of yhe video with the 3 blade vs 2 blade single bevel in foam (i think)target. Thanks

From: hawkeye in PA
Date: 08-Feb-18




Thanks for sharing Rick, and agree its been interesting.

Agree it would be interesting to see the results from 8-12 GPP shots

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18

Rick Barbee's embedded Photo



Speaking of the differences in the holes the different broadheads made:

While reviewing the pictures, I saw something very interesting. Can you see what I see?

Lets compare our impression of the differences.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18

Rick Barbee's embedded Photo



From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18

Rick Barbee's embedded Photo



From: Sunset Hill
Date: 08-Feb-18

Sunset Hill's embedded Photo



I shot again tonight. Same setup, same cedar shafts except put the Hunter Head on an 11/32 shaft. Left to right....Zwickey eskimo 4 blade, Ace standard 135 gr., Hunter, Grizzly el Grande 150 gr. Seems head design is important in dense mediums, splitting a bigger/wider hole for the shaft and a smooth ferrule helps penetration more than arrow speed or weight. The last pic notice how wide the grizzly split the plastic...much wider than, the 1 3/16 wide head. And the arrow shaft was corkscrewed through the plastic, ruining the shaft.

From: Sunset Hill
Date: 08-Feb-18

Sunset Hill's embedded Photo



From: Sunset Hill
Date: 08-Feb-18




My arrows all around 580-590 gr. 34ish% foc. 9.5ish gpi. 3 were using 23/64"... fat shaft compared to the carbons Rick is shooting so arrow pinch is a big factor

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




Wow Nate. I really appreciate your participation in this.

Rick

From: tradmt
Date: 08-Feb-18




What are you seeing in your pics Rick? Maybe because of my phone I just can't see it, no computer.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




Wayne, I'm not going to say until someone else sees it also.

Rick

From: tradmt
Date: 08-Feb-18




Ok, waiting..............:)

From: Dry Bones
Date: 08-Feb-18




Rick i could totally be missing it here, BUT to me the first head had the biggest in and exit hole. Obviously plastic is not comparable to hide and bone, but it is interesting. The last 3rd set looks the thinnest slit. Are you suggesting the in hole lets out more blood than the exit? When work cooperates I will have to do this plastic test myself. if the results are not embarrassing I will post them. :D

-Bones

From: sqrlgtr
Date: 08-Feb-18




Looks like maybe single bevel heads left bigger holes??

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 08-Feb-18




Cody - Yes. The Bishop head made a clean hole like a bullet hole, or a drilled hole, that did not close up at all. The slits of the blades on it stayed open wider than the other two also, AND it had the best penetration.

It was followed by the VPA which had the holes close up quite a bit but both the hole, and the blade slit stayed open pretty some.

The Grizzly came in dead last in penetration, although it wasn't by a lot, but the holes, and blade slits on it closed up almost completely.

The entry holes on the VPA, and the Grizzly look open, but they are closed on the inside. The VPA slightly open inside the barrel, and the Grizzly completely closed.

I can almost stick my pinky finger through both the entry, and the exit holes made by the Bishop. They are wide open.

Rick

From: tradmt
Date: 08-Feb-18




Makes sense, the Grizzlies are much thinner.

From: moosehunter Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Feb-18




Great thread!

From: Tomas de Gato
Date: 08-Feb-18




Great videos Rick! Once again you prove to my surprise that the 3 blade head penetrates as good if not better than the two blade. Who woulda thunk. Can't thanks you enough for sharing these experiments with us. All the best!! Tom

From: Birdy
Date: 09-Feb-18




What's with all the FOC questions? My understanding from the Ashby study was that the weight is what breaks the bone. FOC helps soft tissue penetration and continued penetration AFTER the bone is broke? Shooting hard rubber is a whole different thing, maybe a 4 blade would work best for this since it might open the biggest hole.

From: Sunset Hill
Date: 09-Feb-18




When I shoot truck tire sidewalls at close range, the Hill head has always penetrated much better than any other head for me. I think it's the concave blade gradually widening the slot. Arrow pinch is horrible with the tire rubber and steel belts. Any narrow head always goes through more rubber for me than a wider head, but with the plastic barrel it seems busting a quick hole/slot larger than the shaft really helps. I think tbis testing info is good for people considering how our arrows bust through shoulder blades and big ribs. Not as important on soft tissue.

Surprisingly, the Eskimo 4 blade went as deep as it did. Those little bleeders did good to open up a hole in the plastic instead of pushing it aside. It wasn't even sharp as it is an off temper head that I didn't send back but am using it for practice.

From: GF
Date: 09-Feb-18




Not sure what to make of the different sizes among the permanent holes left in the plastic.... seems like that would be an effect of stretching and even melting (or let’s say heating and stretching), rather than cutting.... and of course (with the possible exception of the thinner part of a scapula) bone doesn’t stretch; it just breaks.

What I did notice about those holes, though.... In the first two, there is clearly some rotation that continued for as long as the arrow was moving; the third one, the orientation of those blades hardly changes at all. Either that or it rotated almost 180°.... I would think that would mean that there was quite a bit of difference in the amount of friction between the shaft and the drum as that arrow is passing through, which (again) could have something to do with the permanent holes in the barrels.

One other thing that throws me off a little bit here is the fact that not all of these arrows it’s right down the middle of the drum. And in the case of two blade striking in a pretty near horizontal orientation, that could have a quite an impact ( :p ) on penetration. One side of the head meets higher resistance,and you can get the shaft whipping out to one side (as in Take II), and that screws up EVERYTHING!

Almost makes me wonder if you’re better off entering a large bone than putting your point right near the edge...

Of course, Ishi had the answer for that - he mounted his heads vertically to slip between the ribs! Doesn’t quite work out that way, but it shows you he was thinking about it....

Anyway, it would be good if you guys could try to put all of your shots right down the middle to reduce another variable. Pics are good, but measured depth of penetration would be better, as would more shots with each arrow.

Remember kids -

The difference ‘tween Science

and Screwin’ Around

Is grabbin’ your notebook

and writin’ it down!

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 09-Feb-18




I good friend of mine dubbed this test

"The Blue Wildebarrell" test

LOL

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 09-Feb-18




GF

Nope, this isn't scientific at all. I never intended it to be. It's just good old country fun, and that's how I wanted it.

One thing to consider is the barrel is not weighted down, and is free standing.

If it were weighted in the bottom, and/or braced to keep it from moving at impact, penetration would likely be better on every shot.

I thought about all that prior to doing the test. Since animals almost always move, I decided to just let the barrel stand there on it's own.

I agree, that the shots closer to the outer sides of the barrel will impede penetration some, but I bet it isn't much, and another thing to consider to go along with that is - the shots closer to the outer sides have a shorter distance to the back side exit, thus suffering less time of resistance applied from the entry.

Last, but not least:

There are some scratches on the barrel, that look like cracks, but they are just that. Scratches, that were there prior to the shots.

So far, NONE of these shots have produced "cracks" in the barrel. Every shot from every broadhead has produced only nice clean cuts/slits.

Rick

From: Mike E
Date: 09-Feb-18




I remember doing similar "test" with some friends of mine when I was a kid with my Crossman Pellet Gun and my moms Sears catalog, just some country fun. Interesting results. Compared to this plastic bones are porous in the center. Thanks for your time guys.

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Feb-18




Plastic doesn't really have any grain, and though this plastic is very tough, it's still more maleable than brittle. Too, in most instances, there's square feet of plastic/space around the entry hole. Nothing like an inch or so around an arrow hitting a bone. For all of these reasons, I wouldn't expect any head to split it.

Agreed, as I stated earlier, that stabilizing the barrels would increase penetration with most of the heads. Have somewhat the equivalent of an arrow turkey penetration test here. Because of their relatively small size, at least compared to deer, and because the tough feathers act as semi permeable barrier, turkeys do move somewhat when impacted by an arrow, which in turn reduces penetration. Regardless, I still usually get pass throughs on turkeys.

Unfortunately, the only blue plastic barrel like yours that I have to join in this test is 300 miles north at my cabin, frozen into the ground under my one-hole outhouse. :>)

From: r.grider
Date: 09-Feb-18




Fun test, bet it never beats the dead cow thread though ! :)

From: Longtrad
Date: 09-Feb-18




"Unfortunately, the only blue plastic barrel like yours that I have to join in this test is 300 miles north at my cabin, frozen into the ground under my one-hole outhouse. :>) "

That ought to add a little excitement to the testing :) .... or maybe excitement isnt the right word.

From: GF
Date: 09-Feb-18




Nope, but the first three letters and the last four can all stick around!

All good points, Rick, but I do have ample confidence that if you were to run a strip of tape down the side of the barrel, your shots would be as close to center as you care to make them....

Wonder where I could get my hands on a few of those... Farm stores are in pretty short supply in this neck o’ the woods.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 09-Feb-18




GF,

I just took another shot, and hit only about 1.5" left of the spot at center I was aiming for, yet when I walked up to see, the arrow actually penetrated to the side just like the other two.

When I shot those last two I was kind of surprised to see them to the left when I walked up, because from the shot distance they looked close to where I was aiming.

I'm thinking the arrows are changing direction after initial impact due to the rotation, and the torquing of the holes seem to uphold that theory.

I also did something different with this last shot, and the results should be interesting to some.

When I get some time I'll get the video & pictures loaded up.

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 09-Feb-18




Well, scratch all that new video & pictures stuff. My phone camera had other ideas I guess.

What I did was - I put 200# of sand in the drum to hold it down nice and sturdy.

I shot it with the same arrow I used for the very first shot. 640 grain / 175gr Bishop head / 14.4% foc.

Only got about 2.5" more penetration. Not near as much difference as what I though it would be.

Rick

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Feb-18




I dunno, Rick. In that medium, 2.5 inches may be a lot. That's very tough stuff.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 10-Feb-18




[[[ Orion said: "I dunno, Rick. In that medium, 2.5 inches may be a lot. That's very tough stuff." ]]]

You're probably right about that. I just kind of expected more.

The important thing is - even though all got better, the differences between them stayed the same, so the results were the same.

Now I know a lot of you guys live within a reasonable distance from a farm coop, and I know most of these coops give these barrels away. They are more than happy to give them away, because it keeps them from having to dispose of them. which they can't do at no cost.

There's no excuse to not do this other than you just don't want to.

Getter Done ! :-)

Rick

From: two4hooking
Date: 12-Feb-18

two4hooking's embedded Photo



OK, here are my results. This was a 55 gal barrel.

Hard plastic deformed both wood shafts that penetrated in as it squeezed them. Made them ovals. The hunter where the blade connects with the ferrule was bent on both sides as it caught and peeled back....this explains the lack of penetration there. I think all would have been fine with any large North American animal in flesh and bone. That barrel is tough!

Bow was a string follow HIll Style %2 pounds at my Draw length

All wood shafts:

Ace on spruce 567 grains 28 inch BOP

Grizzly kodiak on spruce 589 grains 29 BOP

Hunter head modified on POC 507 grains 29 BOP

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 12-Feb-18




Hey Greg, thanks for playing along.

Them barrels are definitely tough. Pretty sure the wall thickness of the 55gal is the same as the 30gal.

Rick

From: Andy Man
Date: 12-Feb-18




Good group Greg

I still think friction more than toughness is impeding the penetration (the non-yield of the plastic is squeezing the ferrel and shaft to a halt )

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 12-Feb-18




James (Andy Man), I agree, but bone will also pinch the shaft.

It's really a moot point though, since all we are doing here is seeing how much energy it takes to overcome that friction & resistance. The more energy you deliver, the more it overcomes that resistance.

We can pretty much rest assured, that if you can reasonably penetrate just one side of these barrels, you can easily kill any animal on the North American continent, and lots of the African game also.

I still want to see what a reliable cape buffalo rig will do on one of these barrels, and again I'm not trying to prove, or disprove anything. I'm just curious, and think it's a great way to see how our equipment stacks up against such rigs.

Rick

From: GF
Date: 12-Feb-18




I’d like to see a well-tuned arrow at 9 GPP from the bow you used to kill that bull.

If I can find one of those barrels, I’ll see what I can come up with...

I’d expect, though, that the #55 would be quite a bit stronger than the smaller barrel.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 12-Feb-18




Matt, I have been thinking about doing it with that bow.

I don't currently have any arrows that really tune to it well, but I'll figure something out (maybe), and if so I will definitely be punching some holes in that barrel with it.

The 55gal barrels have the same wall thickness as the 30gal, and are made from the same plastic. The only difference is going to be the travel distance from one side to the other, but even that isn't going to matter if you aren't making it 30" on the inside.

Rick

From: two4hooking
Date: 12-Feb-18




No way bone is going to pinch and seal up with as much force as that poly drum. The force was such that to extract the broadheads I had to remove the points on the wood arrows and they literally crushed the round shaft on 2 sides. Talk about arrow pinch!

Fun experiment anyway. Showed me why I still like those Ace Standards, One tough head and it out penetrated the grizzly Kodiak in my test.

The drums will probably be similar if the DOT packing group numbers are the same.

From: two4hooking
Date: 13-Feb-18

two4hooking's embedded Photo



My tests today were interesting.

Shot the same spruce shaft, but changed heads.

First the Hill.

From: two4hooking
Date: 13-Feb-18

two4hooking's embedded Photo



Next a big wide Super express.

From: two4hooking
Date: 13-Feb-18

two4hooking's embedded Photo



Now the in-between Ace Standard.

All seemed to penetrate the same distance in this medium with this shaft. That makes be believe the arrow pinch effect has the greatest impact on penetration of a tough tight hard plastic barrel.

I'm done tormenting my poor barrel. It doesn't cook up that tasty.

From: 3arrows
Date: 13-Feb-18




Water in the barrel would be more like a live animal don't you think?

From: two4hooking
Date: 13-Feb-18




No. That barrel is nothing like an animal at all. Fun experiment though.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 13-Feb-18




Just saw this video. I've shot arrows in penetration test from 10 gpp to 25 gpp, not at a plastic barrel, but at plywood, 2X lumber, at loose hanging carpet, and also fight shooting.

First, on paper there is no dramatic variation in energy of arrows from light to heavy when shot from the same bow at the same draw length. It is merely a few foot pounds with a heavy bow. At most it is no more than 10% from the lightest to the heaviest arrow.

The barrel hit with the heavier arrow in the vid has essentially the same energy as the lighter arrow. What ISN'T measured in these two barrel strikes is the length of time from contact to stop, how much the barrel moves during the hit, or how much energy is being absorbed by the barrel during the hit.

This is why heavy fish arrows at 25gpp penetrate water better then arrows at 10gpp. They both have 'about' the same energy coming from the same bow, but the fish arrow delivers it longer in the water medium. You can't see the energy being transfered to the water with any arrow. But water allow the heavier arrow to shed it's energy over a longer period of time so the arrow penetrates deeper. On a heavy plastic barrel the slowere arrow has the same energy but at low velocity it makes the barrel move where the lighter arrow penetrates.

In the barrel test the barrel is assuredly being hit with about the same amount of energy. The paper calc isn't lying. But that's paper. How that energy effects the target isn't just in the holes, but also in barrel movement, and the sound of the hit. You can tell the barrel is absorbing a similar amount of energy.

Flight shoot two arrows one a very lite fluflu and one a very heavy hickory, from the same bow. The flu flu has about the same energy at launch as the heavy arrow. But it falls way short because the energy is rapidly dissipated. The heavy arrow carries down range because the energy carries up, and is released more slowly penetrating air.

From: tradmt
Date: 13-Feb-18




A dead cow in the barrel would just top this experiment right off. :)

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 13-Feb-18




I've got a bunch of tabs to get finished up, and mailed out, BUT once I get caught up I'll be back on this with some different setups, and more video.

I am determined to set up a rig, that will shoot all the way through (complete pass through) this Blue Wildebarrel.

Rick

From: Ontario Longbow
Date: 13-Feb-18




Great thread with interesting results

From: Gun
Date: 15-Feb-18




ttt

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 17-Feb-18




What GPP do you consider to be the best?

At what point do you think arrow weight (in GPP) will start decreasing the amount of penetration, instead of increasing it?

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 17-Feb-18




This video is with the same bow at the same distance, but with a 966gr / 14 gpp / 30% FOC arrow.

Resistance is resistance in whatever form it comes in, and it takes momentum to overcome it.

I believe I'll do my best to stick to "my" (And Old Fred's) 9.5 gpp rule, and if I want more horsepower I'll go up in both arrow weight & draw weight, while maintain that rule when doing it.

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 17-Feb-18




Oh, and yes, I spent a lot of time making sure this puppy flew good. Spent all day building, changing, and rebuiling until I got it to this weight & FOC, then spent about 1.5 hours shooting, tuning, and getting used to the drop.

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 17-Feb-18




Something note worthy is - this big old broadhead made a hole, that the shaft had very little drag resistance as it penetrated. It was almost an easy two finger removal from the barrel. ALL of the other shots were very hard to remove the arrow from the barrel.

Rick

From: hawkeye in PA
Date: 18-Feb-18




How could they have known back then Rick? And even with out plastic barrels. Have enjoyed this thread. Thanks!!

From: Biathlonman
Date: 18-Feb-18

Biathlonman's embedded Photo



No videos but figured photos would be ok. #44 Zipper Zipstick carbon/foam limbs, clicker set at 28", 29" 2016 arrows with glue in/on adapters. One had Original woodsman weight 509 grains, one with Grizzly bruin 125 came in at 523. Both were just shy of 160 fps over my chronograph, neither were remotely sharp. Shot at about 20 yards.

From: Biathlonman
Date: 18-Feb-18

Biathlonman's embedded Photo



From: Biathlonman
Date: 18-Feb-18

Biathlonman's embedded Photo



Same 55 gal barrel, this time with Zipper Zipstick, #54 Carbon/foam limbs, drawn to 28, arrow 29" 2117, 200 grain Grizzly Instinct 3 blade, arrow weight about 645, chrono says it is also 160 fps. This combo has zipped through a bear and several hogs. Just the tip stuck in the off side.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 18-Feb-18




Hey Brad. Thanks for your contribution. Much appreciated.

Rick

From: lefty4
Date: 18-Feb-18




Brad, I think you would be surprised at the difference in results with sharp broadheads. But those are still very good results.

I am still trying to find a barrel. I think I will have Rick send me one since he has a lot of extras. ;^) Doug

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 19-Feb-18

Rick Barbee's embedded Photo



Here's a test a guy just did, and supplied me with the result.

Dryad Orion Longbow

67lbs@28" (I draw 27.5" so I'm guessing 65.5lbs or so).

Carbon express heritage 250 arrow with 100gr. brass insert, 2" aluminum footing, and 250gr VPA 2blade single bevel broadhead.

FOC 25.68%

10.68 gpp

Not bad. Not bad at all. :-)

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 19-Feb-18

Rick Barbee's embedded Photo



Another participation just came in:

Ringing Rocks longbow / 90#@28" / 27" draw so roughly 88#

678gr arrow / 7.7 gpp

27.9% FOC

Rick





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