Yeah, silly, I know.... But it's February and it's GroundHog Day, so we may as well re-hash something....

But over on Bowsite, there's an outfitter offering hunts on African Cape Buff. Not that I have any expectation of dropping $10k to investigate this myself, but I did ask the guy what kind of set-up he recommends for recurves/longbows, and he came back with 850 grains at 230 fps.

I'm not going to suggest that he doesn't know his business, but 'twould appear that he doesn't know JACK about recurves or Longbows....

I plugged a bunch of numbers into Stu's calculator, and of course the data for DW top out at #95, but based on a #95 Bamboo Viper... at my DL.... Stu's calculator says I should be able to hit 230 fps at about 6 GPP. I'm thinking that's pretty damn optimistic, but just rolling with that and backing into the 850 grains.....

Looks like #135 should probably do the trick. Maybe closer to #150, though, by the time the reality checks have set in....

So I'm just curious... Has anybody looked into this? Done it? Read the Ashby studies in great detail? Know what Howard Hill or Fred Bear or Saxton Pope or Art Young anybody else might have used? I know Howard Hill was quite capable of drawing some prodigious weights, but I don't know that there are many modern-day African Bowhunters who have attempted that kind of weight....

Any thoughts??

Maybe a missile launcher, otherwise some good track shoes in case the bow shot isn't a clean hit:)

Seriously, that's a lot of bow, much more than I could even think about handling...there's a difference between being able to draw a 135# bow and shoot it effectively while under pressure, I might add.

That recommended draw weight seems high. Surely there is some data on previous bow kills as to setups that worked.

No way to get to that without going well (WELL) over 100# in draw weight.

Rick

From what I've read, folks that were successful used, on average, 75-80lb+ bows with 14+gpi shafts and 200 gr, heads with conventional equipment. D. Sturgis had an article in TBM a few years ago about his successful Cape hunt.

I know a guy here who said he killed one with a 77# Black Widow. He had Alaskan shafts but not sure what heads he used...I'll try to find out. He said it took two arrows, heart shots, from 35 yards.

It was a guided African hunt, not a canned shoot.

It seems like he is wheel oriented. Gotta be some folks around here who have done it.

A setup like Hill used for elephant ought to be adequate.

Oh, most shots were 15 yds. and under. If I remember correctly Denny said his was at 6-8 yrds.

Isn't there a dangerous game forum here or maybe TradGang? I know I've seen one somewhere.

Yes Trad Gang has one.

Marty Thomas (Buff on here) killed his cape (if memory serves) with an 80# BW recurve, and 1100 grain arrows. I guarantee it was nowhere near 230 fps. Well below 200 as a mater of fact at around 170 if I'm remembering right.

Rick

Whatever happened to Buff and Chunky? I miss Buffs video hunts.

Jim Dougherty used an 80# Mercury Marauder takedown by Ben Pearson on his African hunt where he took his buffalo. I believe he was using standard 2219 arrows by Easton and Pearson Switchblade heads. He was a rep for Ben at the time. There was an article in Bow and Arrow magazine about his hunt. I'm dang sure that outfit he used didn't shoot 230 fps, more like in the 170's.

I remember watching the Jim Dougherty's recording of him shooting his buff when it was still on a real to real around 1978 I think. Pretty neat hunt it was. It charged him if I remember correctly a couple times. It was a great filming, especially in those days.

Buff has a book called Buff's Black Widow. My son got me a copy for Christmas.

I figured I wasn't the only one who would think that the numbers he threw out were pretty ridiculous....

LOL...

170 fps wouldn't bother me at all on a 15-yard shot... but a 15- yard shot on a big bull.... that just might pucker you up for a week!

Now I just need to find myself a #95 Savannah, some 2419s, Ace Super-Express 200s and 125 gr. inserts.... that should give me 750 grains at something a bit over 170 fps.

Better hit the gym....

Both Denny Sturgis Jr and I believe Randy Cooling have done so with bows in the 80 lb range. Don't know what arrow they used.

http://buffsblackwidow.com/

And FWIW..... If I had put a good BH into the heart of a large animal, I'm not sure I'd be in a big hurry to provoke him with a second shot.... seems like a solid 8-ring hit should do the job, even if it takes a minute for a crusty old-timer....

You really need a PH that understands bows and arrows. I can recall years ago a friend going to Africa. Guide wanted him to bring 6doz. 2219 arrows and a 100#+ compound bow. Way he looked at it the guide didn’t want to take any chances on him not killing the Buff outright. That would mean a PO’ed Buff to track down.

I find it hard to believe that a 70 something dw bow, with the proper arrows and broadhead, wouldn’t be effective on anything that walks.

MP

I know for a fact that "Too Short" Paul Brunner has taken at least two cape buffalo and Asian water buff with a 71# self-bow and 135gr magnus broadheads. I made the arrows which were solid Dymondwood arrows breast tapered and 26" long the total weight was 1000 grs. Paul told me the broadhead cut the OFFSIDE rib in half, which was 2 1/2" wide and over 1/2" thick.

Bob

Don Thomas used an 85lb Robertson Recurve and a 1000 grain Ipe shaft if I remember correctly.

Find a guide that really knows what they are talking about, and read aromakr's post again.

"Outdoor Life" magazine February 1966 article on Fred Bear's Africa buffalo said he used a 65# bow with Bear razorheads with inserts. It did not say anything else about his arrows. BobG

This is what the outfitter said when I pointed out that I'd probably need a #140 draw weight to satisfy his criteria....

"Looks like you will not be hunting buffalo. The intent is for you to kill your buffalo not us. Guys seems to gravitate to the 'minimum' they can get away with for some reason. Usually this will involve us shooting your buffalo after you’ve sunk your arrow all of four inches into the beast. Don’t bring a knife to a gun fight. If you only have a knife don’t get into a gun fight."

Really, he could have stopped at

"Looks like you will not be hunting buffalo. "

Well, not with anyone who has no appreciation for the capabilities of a slower, heavier arrow.... I watched a couple of Buff's videos... He used an #83 Widda with 900 gr arrow... looked like he got around 14" of penetration. Not sure what the arrow weight was on his Elephant set-up, but the bow was #85 and he made an arrow disappear completely into the side of a deceased pachyderm. Probably slipped it between ribs, but dead lung tissue is a lot more dense than in a living specimen....

Also interesting to note (since I took a quick look at part of an Ashby report) that Ashby found that higher impact speed was counterproductive in terms of observed penetration; not just because of the lower Momentum (and he came down solidly on the side of looking at Mo vs. KE) but because the tissue offers more resistance to penetration as impact velocity goes up. Just like slapping your hand against water. The faster you go, the more it's going to sting.

Too Short must have what, a 25" DL?? I plugged in the numbers Bob offered and came up with a figure of about 50 FPE and a best-case velocity of around 145 fps....

I saw that on the other side as well. You only make sense over there if you shoot long range with your mechanical advantage device or rifle (doesn't matter).

If you go to Grizzlystik on Youtube there is a 32 second clip of a guy shooting one with a 50# compound. It explains the setup. The Bull is down in sight with 24" of penetration.

I would provide the link but I've probably just shut this thread down now.

Anyone remember what weight Denny Behn used with his 52" Cascade? I bet Steve Gorr knows.

If I had the interest (I don't) and wherewithal (I don't) to do that I'd use an #80 bow and 1200 grain arrows minimum. I'm into ratios of thirds. For ultimate impact I like a 2:3 ratio with bow and arrow.

I believe Monty Browning said he used an 80# longbow and 1200 fiberglass fish arrow on his Cape Buffalo. I wish "your" outfitter could meet him and see the array of huge and dangerous game he has taken with a rig that "wouldn't be adequate"!

I'd actually be surprised if that combination is shooting over 150 f.p.s., but I would NOT want to be hit by that arrow any more than a loaded coal train going 35 m.p.h.!

A world record brown bear, a huge Cape Buffalo, and an elephant would probably all soundly disagree with that outfitter... if they were still alive to do so after Monty's broadhead sliced through their vitals! Oops- too late!

At 35 yards I would wet my levis. At 6 yards I would yell for mom. I know there are people out there that do this and I take my hat off to them. But then again I wouldn't kiss a rattle snake either. Ed

I did a Cape Buffalo hunt is South Africa last year, I ended up finishing the hunt with a rifle. My setup was Black Widow PCH 86@26, I draw 26, 2018 with a 340 Axis glued inside, I machined an steel insert with 175 grain Abowyer Brown Bear. Arrow weighed 1100 grains. I shot the Buffalo at 15yrds, shot placement was perfect. The arrow hit center rib and the broadhead broke when impacting the rib. We spent 5 days stalking the buff, I got real close but never got another shot. On the last night of our hunt I made the decision to finish with the rifle. It was an awesome hunt and will be doing it again. We did some test shots afterwards, 4 arrows with 2 pass thru and 2 stopped in the off side rib. I also made a shot with a PSR 53@28 and got about 12" of penetration. I don't know if the broadhead was bad, or just one of those things that happens.

In 2016 I killed a water buffalo in Argentina, with a #69 Bob Lee Ultimate recurve, FMJ Dangerous Game 300, with 375 Tuffheads, total weight of about 1020. He was estimated to weigh around #2000, 20 yard shot,single arrow, heart shot.

In July 2017 I shot a Cape Buffalo in So. Africa, single arrow, heart shot, from 22 yards. I was shooting a #76 Black Widow PSA, with a Widowmaker 250 shaft, 250 gr. Abowyer Brown Bear broadhead.

On that hunt, at the suggestion of Mick Baker, Australian buff guide and bonafide killer, I went for a flatter shooting arrow, only weighing around 860 grains. Expecting up to possibly a 30 yard shot, I wanted to decrease my margin of error with a lighter arrow. Mick assured me it would perform, and if I wasn’t unable to put in the right spot, it would be a moot point.

I got about 18” penetration on both hunts, both setups performing flawlessly.

Obviously, you don’t have to have #100 to kill a buff....BUT I was very fortunate that I only caught the edge of ribs, 3/4” either way could have been a different story

Our brothers from down under may give us input from the big cattle they hunt, too.

I read through some of Buff's hunts, and as best I can remember Rick is spot on. I completely agree with the above that I would not want to be hit by those arrows anywhere. A double bit axe slices and splits wood pretty easy (mostly depending on what wood you hit). It isn't traveling anywhere close to 200 FPS. A lot the same thing in my mind.

-Bones

I have to think that broadhead had some kind of manufacturing defect.

MP

I saw the thread that is mentioned here...from what I got was he was under the impression he was speaking with compound hunters and when the question came up about the longbow I`m not sure he thought you were being serious.

That`s why I came back with "that calc`s out to just under 100 ft lbs. of Kinetic energy hoping to hear his "minimum" of KE. My understanding is having at least 85 ft lbs of KE is the minimum.

You can get to the correct KE by a combo of speed and weight...the faster you can push a heavy arrow is the way to go. You need to know your FPS arrow speed and total weight of your complete arrow to compute KE.

As usual on LW, most guys jump on and just flap their lips and of course, the dumb comments about compounds and guns. Your point is????

Nice animals Larry and Texas King. Much respect, you guys are the real deal. That is a hunt on my must do list for sure.

Blackhawk, I think I remember Denny using 88 pounds on that Cascade Night Hawk. I think he had around 53 foot pounds with his setup.

The formula I provided was the optimum for bowhunting buffalo. It was not equipment specific. It was derived from the hundreds of buffalo hunts we’ve provided for bowhunters since 1994. We can provide you with specific data on bowhunts for buffalo that clients have used; set up, range at which shot was taken, result of shot, percentage of rifle shots needed in follow up, etc. In fact, well over 50% of traditional bowhunts for buffalo end with a rifle killing the animal. This is simple truth and comes from poor or exciting shooting or usually poor penetration on the animal. I am a trad bowhunter myself having bagged over 100 animals with either longbow or recurve and over 300 with a compound, most all of which on African species. I have zero bias towards any legal hunting equipment and I think it’s wiser to hunt with an outfit that knows what’s its doing and will be honest with its clients rather than one that will stroke your ego, take your money, and kill your animal with a rifle in the end. I know Marty and he knows me and I shoot straight (no pun intended). We want you to kill your game not us and we are happy to advise on any African bowhunt with any type of equipment.

This is what you’re contending with. Imagine it’s covered in a tough, thick hide. You must be properly prepared to engage this beast with bow or rifle. They have a tendency to become violent. One of my good friends was killed by a buff on a hunt just two seasons ago.

Well stated Ken, what would you recommend for a set up for an experienced hunter that would want to use conventional equipment?

If you can propel a 1000 gr arrow at 160 or a bit better, take only a broadside shot within 20 yards you will most likely experience a favorable outcome. We’ve found the original German Kinetics SilverFlame heads to work better than most. They are extremely sharp and durable. They may not appear to be but they are proven again and again. The Ashby heads have been known to break. On the arrow side the FMJ DG arrows are proven. The grizzly stix can also also break. Other set ups of course can work but we’ve had better experiences with the above. On plains game I personally shoot 125gr Kudupoint heads topping arrows by Byron Ferguson. All in around 600 grains. Byron is a good friend of mine and I like his arrows. I love the Kudupoints heads so that was my personal shameless plug for them, lol.

“If you can propel a 1000 gr arrow at 160 or a bit better, take only a broadside shot within 20 yards you will most likely experience a favorable outcome.”

OK, soooo......

Why would you respond to the original question by throwing out some nonsense about 850 grains clocking 230 feeps when (as an experienced RC/LB Hunter yourself) you know damn well that those numbers are preposterous?

I must’ve missed some step in the logic.....

As I’ve said three times now, that was not equipment specific. Must I say it again?

The operative word I used was Optimum.

Yeah, well... the original QUESTION was specific to RC/LB.

All I was looking for was a straight answer.

Anyone remember what Fred bear set up was

Easy guys. Let's not get too feisty.

Ken, I wonder what your thoughts are on my setup that I used on a water buffalo. I used a Morrison ILF with his carbon foam longbow limbs that are good performers. They were 75#@28", but they were in the low 80's at my draw length just under 30". I was using gold tip kinetic 200 spine arrows with 300 grain tuffhead broadheads, 100 grain brass inserts for the shaft and 125 grain Broadhead inserts. The total Arrow weight was around 900 grains and it had a lot of FOC.

Easy guys. Let's not get too feisty.

Ken, I wonder what your thoughts are on my setup that I used on a water buffalo. I used a Morrison ILF with his carbon foam longbow limbs that are good performers. They were 75#@28", but they were in the low 80's at my draw length just under 30". I was using gold tip kinetic 200 spine arrows with 300 grain tuffhead broadheads, 100 grain brass inserts for the shaft and 125 grain Broadhead inserts. The total Arrow weight was around 900 grains and it had a lot of FOC.

GF has the reading comprehension of a third grader. Take it easy on him.

I have never chronographed it, but they it seemed pretty quick, all things considered.

On a side note, I broke a Abowyers Brown Bear Broadhead shooting an angled shot on an old cow pelvis with a 53# bow.. looked just like the pic above. Not inclined to try that broadhead again.

I would think "poor or excited shooting" would be likely to have a bad outcome no matter what the archery setup was.

A friend of mine killed one with a 75# Black Widow using a very heavy arrow with a Tough Head on the front end.

It can be done.

TMBB

I saw a tuffhead blade break off along the ferrule on a gemsbok shoulder. They can all fa weil, even the high dollar broadheads.

Poor and/or excited shooting does account for most wounds bow or rifle. It is a different experience to be in amongst many buffalo. I’ve had guys that could not draw their bows at all when it came time to make the shot. I had one bowhunter in Zimbabwe that simply would not shoot. 18 yards broadside and he said grass was in the way. There was no grass. Fear, anxiety, excitement, all of these things must be dealt with when it’s time to let the arrow go. I had two bowhunters in Mozambique just yards away from a big bull and they couldn’t let the arrow go and these guys are highly experienced. They came back to camp and took rifles out for the rest of the hunt. They said being that close on the ground in water up to your knees was just too much. It is an experience you will not forget if you’re hunting in the ground with the buffalo and they’re wild buffalo.

Regarding the equipment question first posed, that set up seems totally adequate providing it generated enough speed. We’ve found that KE is pretty much useless on large game and momentum is most important as it provides a better gauge of penetration. You can achieve 100 ft lbs of KE with a light arrow but that doesn’t mean the arrow will carry thru the animal. On buffalo you can achieve enough penetration with many different combinations but it’s when you strike a rib bone or shoulder that you must have an adequately heavy arrow to get to the vitals. I can kill a buffalo with a .30/06 rifle but I’d never hunt one with that and expect a desired result every time. Try not to go for the minimum capable but the maximum you can handle even if that means working out and up to the heavy weight set up necessary to be successful if the hit is marginal or into a rib. We are very particular when it comes to what our client bowhunt buffalo with. As I said, we do NOT want to kill your buffalo for you.

Interesting. I have never heard of a vpa penetrator breaking, or a silver flame, but the profile isn't the greatest.

Mr Moody I appreciate your candor. Obviously it would be better for business to paint a rosey picture.

My Australian friend the buff guide says the same thing. Hard for trad shooters to swallow, but many more dangerous game are finished off with a rifle than not. There ARE limitations to our equipment. That doesn’t change my desire to use it, but I need to understand the odds.

That is the most honest point that can be made. There are plenty of African operations that will take your money and then proceed to “double tap” your buffalo after the arrow barely sticks into the hide. They just want your money. I’d prefer your business and keeping a client always means being honest with the guy even when he’d rather here optimism regarding his equipment choices. You cannot candy coat buffalo hunting with a bow. It’s damned dangerous and if someone gets killed because of inadequate preparation or equipment then who’s to blame? The client that didn’t know better or the professional who did.

Also, don’t believe everything you might hear about this guy or that guy killed a buffalo cleanly with this or that set up. What happens in the bush stays in the bush and professional never outs his clients. Some of the hunts mentioned in this very thread as successful bow kills were actually ended with a rifle. I know as I was on one of them and personally know the PH on another. Don’t believe everything you read and some stories are just tall tales.

Why would guys get all wadded up over this?

I can attest to Kens recommendations. You are at a serious disadvantage when hunting Buff with a stick bow as most guys cannot shoot that heavy equipment...and even some that do.... are no doubt short stroking that 90# longbow.

If you don't get it back to FD....it ain't 90#s.

We shot a 60# recurve with a 560gr arrow into a couple dead buff- didn't penetrate the rib cage.

My buddy that still thought it would work wounded a buff with his BW recurve that took out our assistant guide. He lived but was all busted up. We killed 4 water buff in Australia but with compounds [80# 840gr]

I would feel comfortable shooting a 900gr arrow and 70-75# compound speed bow...but not a 70# longbow even with a very heavy arrow.

This is serious stuff....as Ken said...its not for everyone. Its a whole different ball game being on the ground close to these critters that can kill you.

I could probably get up to 5# heavier, but it has been while since I have been hint ready with my HH rogue which is 95# at.my draw length.

And thanks for the response.

No rifle back up. This isn't new!

The need to draw started with the need to trasmit survival information to future generations: “This animal kills us!”

As I said 80# minimum 1200 grain arrow would be my choice. The guys that have done this whose accounts I have read, have been over #80 bow. Also this is a case where lots of arrow weight beyond 10 gpp would be an asset. You can't be overgunned on a water buff.

In fact if I could do this trip, and was a younger man #100 and 1500 grain broadheads would be more optimal yet. A buff is near prehistoric in size and toughness. No lil twinkie bow gonna cut it. Warbow weaponry is closer to it.

The key to the entire equation is NOT your bow poundage...it`s the FPS of you bow with a certain arrow. Common sense can tell you a 70 lb bow will shoot the same arrow faster than a 50 lb bow.

But you can`t ask someone "how about this setup" when you don`t include all the numbers. I`m shocked how few hunters understand the mechanics of the bow and arrow.

Most PH`s will not even entertain bowhunting certain species. Some will fire their rifle the second you send off a arrow...when you get home you can say you killed it with a arrow.

Be thankful there is a guy like Ken that offers a "true" bowhunt for dangerous game. This is part of the reason they don`t...the debate of what each feels is adequate to kill the targeted animal humanly and SAFELY.

Personally, I would go with a 98# recurve, and an 850gr arrow, and I bet that would be overkill as long as it had a good broadhead on it.

Probably would use the Bishop archery single bevel in whatever weight I needed to get tuned up.

Rick

I would trust Ken on this one y'all. I have hunted at his Tennessee hunting lodge a couple of times before he sold it. I hunted with the recommended gear for the animals I was hunting and my hunts ended great with good clean kills. He knows his business.

I'm a bow hunter through and through, but I don't get the idea of shooting a Cape Buffalo with a bow. It's like the Ring Girl in a boxing match claiming she was in on the knock-out when one occurs. Yeah, you are certainly there when all hell breaks loose. And it would be spectacular, and even bull fighting has it's banderilleros, nobody suggests placing those is a walk in the park.

Maybe they should pass a law saying one can't do it until one has paid up for a rifle hunt first. If it still seems like something other than a stunt when one has some experience, well then you'd know what the rest of us don't.

What about warbows for hunting the largest game, without wheels? The extra draw length should pump up the power stroke. It is evidently possible to shoot them accurately. I am not suggesting that Yumi or ELB style warbows be used. Just to consider that whatever one's personal favorite bow is, that versions of a greater size allowing very long draws might be the ticket on the largest game.

Simon Stanley shooting a Belcher recurve bow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPDj8fxwlZo

Y'all probly already know this but Fred Eichler named the Hoyt Buffalo its name because before the bow went into production he was using a prototype and the first animal he killed with it was a cape buffalo. So he told Hoyt let's call it the Buffalo and they were cool with it.

"seems like a solid 8-ring hit should do the job, even if it takes a minute for a crusty old-timer.... "

Some minutes are longer than others!

That broken head reminds me of something - how much do you trust a weld? All these broadheads with a blade welded to a ferrule? Okay if the prey isn't going to stomp or maul you in his dying 30 seconds.

And, yeah, I get that a few of you are expert welders, and your s* never breaks. I've seen too many welds fail. Heat changes metal. Best alloy in the world, high heat, bad things. Sorry.

Nice pictures of cape buffalo taken. Texas King thanks for the information on the equipment you used.

“Some minutes are longer than others!”

Yup. Some minutes seem to last for an eternity; other minutes have effects that last for about that long. So if you’re contemplating the prospect of going out with the specific intention of HAVING one of those minutes, it would be helpful to get a straight answer to an honest question.

So no, Shawn, I’m NOT “being an ass” just because I’m not grateful to have received a useless answer from someone who by all reports is eminently qualified to give me a one that I might be staking my life on, were I to be one of his clients. If I weren’t prepared to respect Ken’s opinion, I would never have asked for it.

And for the record, I NEVER asked for a minimum or how little I could get away with; only what he recommends for a recurve or longbow. Mass & FPS is more useful information than pounds of draw, but not if the recommended FPS is FOS.

And on the subject of minutes...

If you drive Broadhead A wall-to-wall (or to any other depth) through the chest of Animal B, it is going to take exactly the same number of seconds for that animal to expire, regardless of the mass or velocity of the arrow that delivered the blade. All that matters is what gets cut internally and how much air can flow in through the entrance wound - and the exit, provided that you can get one.

And what happens during those seconds... that’s why PH’s make the big money and why you need to be able to trust his judgement.

Good for the PH to trust the Client’s judgement as well.... I think if I were doing it, I would prefer a client who had the sense to let down and switch to a rifle to one who would talk himself into a S#!+ Show.

GF....you DO have a valid point there. I saw the whole thing from the start and that is why the PH "should" come up with a KE recommendation and then it`s up to the hunter to figure it out from there.

You guys can watch my dad's Africa hunt here. I believe I have the recurve at home that he shot the Cape with.

Darrall Dougherty

I guess the link didn't come through on my post. Just type my name on YouTube.

Darrall Dougherty

Do you know the specs on the bow/arrow off-hand? I’m a little short on time for yoo-toobin’ today...

I told the story many years ago[ 2006?] on Bowsite......

Long story but when we bowhunter water buff in Australia many years ago before all of these 'Recommendations'. One guy in our group was shooting his 60# BW recurve with 560gr arrows,Zwickey heads.

He mistakenly thought it would do the trick as it blew through everything in the lower 48...and didn't want to wreck his instinctive shooting with a heavier arrow.

He wounded a bull on a station we were hunting....got about 10" of penetration. We couldn't find the bull so we did a grid search. I was with the assistant guide but as he walked into a big brush patch with his camera and tripod on his shoulder.....I stopped and circled around to my buddy....and just as I met up with him 50 yds away we could hear the bull charge the guide....plow him around in a circle like a bobcat tractor....and then come charging through the brush towards our voices.

That bull went by me at 5' - me now behind a small tree....my buddy Robt running down the trail. I'm 6'4" and that bull was almost as tall at the back as I am....probably 1,700#'s and mean as hell coming to stomp a muddle in us.

While the boys went to find the bull, I got Jonathan out of the bulls hide hole- worried he was going to come back. At first I thought he was dead, but once semi revived I could hear the guys shouting in the distance and just hoisted J on my shoulder and haled him out to a safer place.

it turns out he was lucky. The bull had been pushing him into the brush....and since it had some give he only had a broken pelvis and a couple other broken bones as I recall. His GL2 was fine.

The head guide was charged by the bull but instead of a camera he had his .375 HH...and put 3 bullets in a 2" circle in his forehead at 15 feet.

It was a 6 hour trip on bumpy dirt roads to the hospital for J....that had to be as bad as the cheap. He was lucky....as if it were on flat dry ground....he would have been a bag of bones.

The rest of us all shot buff with pass throughs- 4- or 5 total with 80# compounds and 825-840 gr arrows. Put them down faster than a rifle the guide said. The vid of mine is on Bowsite videos, "Stalk on an Australian buff"

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