Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Short Bow Accuracy Pt.2

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Messages posted to thread:
David A. 05-Dec-17
David A. 05-Dec-17
ModernLongbow 05-Dec-17
dean 05-Dec-17
GLF 05-Dec-17
David A. 05-Dec-17
David A. 05-Dec-17
David A. 05-Dec-17
David A. 05-Dec-17
JustinB 05-Dec-17
David A. 05-Dec-17
Desperado 05-Dec-17
cch 06-Dec-17
Desperado 06-Dec-17
mgerard 06-Dec-17
stickhunter 06-Dec-17
George D. Stout 06-Dec-17
George D. Stout 06-Dec-17
Fisher Cat 06-Dec-17
JRW 06-Dec-17
mgerard 06-Dec-17
Fisher Cat 06-Dec-17
George D. Stout 06-Dec-17
JRW 06-Dec-17
mgerard 06-Dec-17
JRW 06-Dec-17
David A. 06-Dec-17
dean 06-Dec-17
Orion 06-Dec-17
David A. 06-Dec-17
dean 06-Dec-17
Demmer 06-Dec-17
David A. 06-Dec-17
David A. 06-Dec-17
David A. 06-Dec-17
Ihunts2much 06-Dec-17
Draven 06-Dec-17
dean 06-Dec-17
Demmer 06-Dec-17
Demmer 06-Dec-17
Hal9000 06-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
dean 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
dean 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
Demmer 07-Dec-17
SteveBNY 07-Dec-17
tecum-tha 07-Dec-17
tecum-tha 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
Elderly OCR 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
David A. 07-Dec-17
cch 08-Dec-17
zetabow 08-Dec-17
David A. 08-Dec-17
David A. 08-Dec-17
Autumn Moon 08-Dec-17
Elderly OCR 08-Dec-17
zetabow 08-Dec-17
David A. 08-Dec-17
David A. 08-Dec-17
Big Dog 09-Dec-17
fdp 09-Dec-17
George D. Stout 09-Dec-17
gluetrap 09-Dec-17
Big Dog 09-Dec-17
David A. 09-Dec-17
mgerard 09-Dec-17
David A. 09-Dec-17
George D. Stout 09-Dec-17
Elderly OCR 09-Dec-17
Draven 09-Dec-17
David A. 09-Dec-17
dean 09-Dec-17
felipe 09-Dec-17
David A. 10-Dec-17
David A. 10-Dec-17
mahantango 10-Dec-17
Big Dog 10-Dec-17
David A. 10-Dec-17
SB 10-Dec-17
David A. 10-Dec-17
2 bears 10-Dec-17
Twisted Branch 10-Dec-17
Autumn Moon 10-Dec-17
2 bears 10-Dec-17
David A. 10-Dec-17
David A. 10-Dec-17
dean 10-Dec-17
David A. 10-Dec-17
SB 11-Dec-17
David A. 11-Dec-17
Shifty 11-Dec-17
Fisher Cat 11-Dec-17
From: David A.
Date: 05-Dec-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



Part I was closed because of heated debate. Pls. note this thread is debate free.

Earlier, I had commented I was getting a 52" Kodiak Magnum (KM) to shoot as well as my full out target bow (pic). Typically I was easily shooting 260s on the 300 round with both both bows with out much practice, e.g. a hour or two a week. I could go higher, indeed much higher even with the little KM when I really went after it. This wasn't easy for me due to hand and shoulder health issues as well as a limited time schedule. I do not have unlimited practice time.

My very best (backyard round) was near perfection recently with the KM when I nearly shot a perfect round. I'm sure someone can do this, because I proved to my satisfaction that bow length is not necessarily a constraint although of course it is as typically set up and shot.

I'm sure it's hard for many tournament archers to get their head around this. How can a KM be shot as accurately as a full out tournament right?

Well, for starters I was also using a one simple one pin sight. I used an old brass sight pin and drilled the KM riser for it. It's really no less accurate than the $500 deluxe sight on my tournament bow.

The system is also more accurate than a fixed draw. Consider, for example, the diameter of an arrow tip vs. the diameter of a pin sight. And I was also using a few other simple tricks, if you want to call them that.

(con't)

From: David A.
Date: 05-Dec-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



Compare the size of these size pin distal tips to the sight size of a typical target arrow tip used as a front sight. There is a substantial difference. Obviously an arrow tip is at least several hundred percent larger. That in itself doesn't mean an arrow tip can't be placed accurately, but it is going to ultimately be less accurate.

For bowhunters, consider the increased size you will have with a broadhead at the end of the arrow. Of course, the base of the broadhead is usually used, my regardless, it is a bit less tidy than using a field tip.

Now, I value simplicity highly, and both sight systems are simple and each have their pros and cons. However, neither are the ultimate solution for trad bows that we like to cant and have as simple as possible, esp. longbows. I am not going to go into all possible methods here, as that is not the point of this thread which is to examine the constraints of short bows and some rather than all of the solutions.

Now, if we were to eliminate finger pinch and have a very accurate albeit simple aim point, what is the remaining constraint?

From: ModernLongbow
Date: 05-Dec-17




It would not be as accurate in my hands for 4 reasons.

1. It doesnt weigh 5.5lbs like my target rig

2. It would not have a plunger and a spigarelli zt.

3. String angle at my 28” draw.

4. Balance/ weight distribution and speed.

Some may respectfully try to argue that an arrow off the shelf when properly matched is as good as one shot from an elevated rest. I would agree with that unless that shelf has a plunger. Read Rick Stonebreakers tuning for 10s and get back to me.

If you really feel a 52” KM can rival the accuracy of say a 68” WA legal barebow, either the barebow is not properly setup, or the archer is not able to achieve a potential greater than the kmag can offer.

From: dean
Date: 05-Dec-17




One day in NW Iowa, I saw a jack rabbit and a fox get shot with a 45 pound 46" Herters, fiberglass arrows and released with a strap tab, both were over 50 yards away, anything is possible.

From: GLF
Date: 05-Dec-17




That's sorta like the myth that short barreled 38 revolvers are inherently not accurate. An old friend, Bob Munson, took an aluminum 2 1/2" fixed sight 38 and busted balloons at 200 yards. Most would say thats impossible at 50 yards. I believe every bow made is more accurate than us. You just have to figure out how to shoot it accurstely.

From: David A.
Date: 05-Dec-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



Here is the installation. Please note the simple Bear Weather rest. When arrows are perfectly (near perfectly) tuned it is as accurate as any other high end rest Berger button or not - or very nearly so.

From: David A.
Date: 05-Dec-17




Now there is a constraint, please note the curvature of the sight window just above the sight. This is as high as I could go on this bow to have the pin where I wanted it which was for 20 yds. It might not be high enough for finger shooters. Frequently, I am running into constraints because of the way trad bows are built. In general, the majority are built for instinctive shooters.

Fortunately, most of these constraints have solutions. For example one finds a short bow with a more suitable sight window. Or one modifies the curvature. In my case, since I'm using a different release method, I didn't have to do this, but it was necessary on other short bows I shoot.

Even so, I had to raise my nock point above what is considered to be ideal. Experimentally, accuracy was not effected. I also found Dewayne Martin had proved this as well. Here is a very helpful video on bringing point on closer for target archers as well as bowhunters:

https://youtu.be/RuYZE5LKKxY

From: David A.
Date: 05-Dec-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



While Dewayne is shooting a target bow (and I believe typically in the 280s-290s) keep in mind he is also using the tip of the arrow for his front sight. The fixed crawl is a great method, and I like it.

But ah ha! Try it on a 52" bow w/o tunable limbs. Another constraint, and a severe one if we go in that direction. However, if one is serious, the lower limb could be retillered, right? Are you going to go to that trouble? For fixed crawl, when you are holding low, it is a significant issue for accuracy, for noise, and for comfort.

For the bowhunter, I think a simple one pin sight is a better solution for short bows and to my eye it just seems to fit in with the bow held vertically.Also keep in mind the constraint of longer bows esp. when shot vertically by the bowhunter in blinds, from stands, from kneeling position in grass, etc.

On the other hand, I don't want any sight pin on some of my bows...no no no. But that's another topic, but here I will concede it is not the solution I want for longbows or even recurves that I enjoy hunting with canting and shooting even more simply.

One style does not fit all and I certainly do not only shoot with the aiming method being described even with short bows. My discussion here is merely to point to some of the constraints and some of the solutions.

From: David A.
Date: 05-Dec-17




Tomorrow...the $1400 disaster! Actually, it's worse than that...!

From: JustinB
Date: 05-Dec-17




This is interesting. I really like sights, apertures or pins, on recurves or even longbows. What draw weight are those rigs?

From: David A.
Date: 05-Dec-17




Justin, for most of my bowhunting I have favored draw weights around 50-60 lbs. In recent years, I have been dropping down to 50 lbs. and lower. The KM hold wt. is 45 lbs. and I just got a new static limb recurve that is 40 lbs. and my hold wt. would probably be just around 35 lbs. because my release shortens the draw. I'm working with River's Edge Recurves as well as some other bowyers who are kind enough to tolerate my experimentalism tendencies in riser and other modifications.

One of the crucial keys to short bow accuracy is being able to hold dead steady at and slightly after the moment of release. You cannot expect to shoot high scores even with a tournament rig if the sight pin is wandering around the 4 and 5 rings, for example on the 300 target and you are trying to time your release. So you have to dominate the bow. Once you experience this it is hard/less satisfying to go back to anything less than near complete control.

Many will find two crucial factors: hold wt. and bow mass as determinants in their accuracy and bowhunting success. When you can hold on a buck dead steady and pretty much know that arrow is going to hit the mark or close to it, it's a great feeling. I never had that feeling snap shooting. We can watch how stable an archer is by how steady the tip of the arrow is. Look at the top IBO trad. shots here. They have chosen their bow wt., bow mass, etc. to maximize shot control.

https://youtu.be/39ppQpTQcz4

From: Desperado
Date: 05-Dec-17




I find this very interesting because I was just about to share my experience with the group. I bleed Black Widow period. All of my Widows are 60" or 62". I thought I might try a shorter bow for maneuverability so I borrowed a close friend's 52" KM. He told me to go ahead and tune to my heart's content because a shoulder injury has stopped him from shooting. I tried so many arrow spines,lengths,point weights, nock point settings, brace heights etc and I can not shoot a shortie worth spit !!!! All my shots go way left and high no matter what combination I try. All my 60" & 62" bows shoot like dreams. I refuse to use sights on any recurve or long bow and that's simply my choice.I finally called my pal and said I was bringing the KM back, thanks for letting me play but but I will stay with my Widows and give up the shortie experiment. Guess having that KM in my hand was like a "crossgun" in bow season....Just doesn't belong !!! Such is life !!!

From: cch
Date: 06-Dec-17




Desperado, try a 56" Black Widow. I shot one for a few years and really liked it. It will shoot way better than a Kmag. Mine was a SA111.

David, find a 52" Cascade that might get you to your perfect score. They are quite a bit more forgiving than the K mag.

From: Desperado
Date: 06-Dec-17




Thanks Chris...I'll check it out....I'd be happy to add another Widow to my stable anyway !!! have a great day and Merry Christmas !!! "Whitie"

From: mgerard Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Dec-17




David, can you post a pic of that sight from the front of the riser? How long before we see the strap release?

From: stickhunter
Date: 06-Dec-17




I tend to agree with your assessment David.

I'm sure longer bows offer something in the lines of forgiveness but I don't know this to be true at shorter distances.

Furthermore IMO, an arrow rest and plunger only offer more accuracy if you are forcing an arrow to shoot at a weight it's not liking.

This is probably not the case for every shooter but I believe it to be true for us average Joe's. A top notched shooter can probably more readily notice some differences between the set ups.

Look at it this way...today's 3D pros are shooting scores nowadays with 34-36" ATA bows that blow away anything ever shot back in the 80's with 42-46 ATA bows. Yes there is more speed involved but that doesn't play a Hugh role with the accuracy of their ability to judge distance.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Dec-17




Desperado, yes...it's you. No offense of course, and short bows can be finicky. I can hit the sixty yard target with mine on a fairly regular basis, but I'm not going to tell you I can shoot it as well as a 68" target bow. Mainly because my target bow is about eight pounds lighter and easier to hold on the target.

Controlling the bow through the shot is a big deal and a sight pin takes away the concern of where to hold, but not how to hold. I'm a knucklehead too when it comes to sights....I don't think I'm good enough to use them all the time. A bow has to fit well also, and I bet your Widows fit you well.

By the way, the best field rounds I ever shot in my life was with a bow that was about 49 inches long; a Jennings T-Star compound bow with 35% let off.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Dec-17




Those scores were shot in the bowhunter barebow class, fingers only, one anchor and one hold on the face.

From: Fisher Cat
Date: 06-Dec-17




All my recurves are 52"-58" with most being 54". They are accurate for me, but grip fit is critical for "controlling the bow through the shot" as George put it. - John

From: JRW
Date: 06-Dec-17




Exceptions will always exist, but exceptions should never be passed off as the rule. There is a reason why those who win at the top levels exclusively use longer bows. When someone wins Lancaster or the NFAA indoor nationals with a Kodiak Magnum I may change my mind.

From: mgerard Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Dec-17




But, David is saying this is a bowhunting application. Right?

From: Fisher Cat
Date: 06-Dec-17




Yeah, I think it's pretty clear David was using his results as an example of what is possible to achieve with short bows. He wasn't trying to convince anyone to throw away their target rigs. He makes a valid point, even though he used a sight and release. Those accessories aren't for me, but this thread has got me wondering if a two finger release might be more accurate with shorter bows. - John

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Dec-17




Hunting distance isn't the same as field or target distance, so the context is important. And, for arrow after arrow accuracy, I'll need to see a video .... even at just 20 yards on a 300 round.

From: JRW
Date: 06-Dec-17




"But, David is saying this is a bowhunting application. Right?"

He repeatedly refers to his scores on 300 rounds, the same 300 rounds shot at the NFAA indoor nationals.

From: mgerard Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Dec-17




As a comparison to how accurate this "bowhunting application" has been for him. But this is debate free, so I will not debate your position :>)

From: JRW
Date: 06-Dec-17




Yes, we can’t have any debate now. :)

From: David A.
Date: 06-Dec-17




Yes, I'm simply a bowhunter interested in pushing the accuracy envelope and believe me it does need to be pushed up a few notches. I find it somewhat depressing that one of the top IBO trad. champions primarily switches to compound for bowhunting.

"If you really feel a 52” KM can rival the accuracy of say a 68” WA legal barebow, either the barebow is not properly setup, or the archer is not able to achieve a potential greater than the kmag can offer."

Both bows would probably shoot equally well if shot from a bow machine. I'm trying to make myself into a shooting machine, basically even though I might be wearing plaid or leafy camo. So I went after extreme stability and a near perfect release. I can only do this by adding wt. to the KM and my using my release (eliminates finger pinch entirely). I have no special talent really, I couldn't do this shooting like everyone else.

The release solves the string angle problem, but by itself it's insufficient. We have to solve all the issues. For example, when I take the special stabilizer I had made off I can't shoot the KM well at all. I would be lucky to break 230 on the 300 round even with the sight and release. The little KM is just too light.

Bow mass is hugely important for accuracy. Once you settle in, you can't be wandering around with your sight pin or arrow tip by much. You can't shoot high scores by trying to time when that arrow tip is beginning to cross over from the 3 or 4 ring in toward the 5 ring. Rather, you have to be pretty much in the 5 ring a bit longer and also holding into it even a split second after the release.

This is why the top IBO world trad. champions are not using light weight bows. And they do have finger pinch, that's why they are typically solving that by going with 68 and even 70" rigs. Won't work with a KM at least for me. I know George and others can do it pretty well, but for me not very good.

I'll show a pic of this stabilizer, why it cost so much and the disaster that happened to me soon. It is a fine example of hitting your head up against impediments that have plagued my goal of improving trad. archery bowhunting accuracy for years and years. Mr. Murphy is always lurking about...

From: dean
Date: 06-Dec-17




On the old indoor 300, blue and white targets with all of the bells and whistles on the bow, that last end bit me every time. That is why they made target bows, it makes them difficult to throw at the target. All of that added stuff and weight also make them difficult to use for hunting shots, at least the kind of shot opportunities a slinkin' and sneakin' ground hugger, like me, gets. Aiming aids and releasing aids are nothing knew. David comes out with his info at that super slow target shooting pace. When I shot target bows, I liked targets that were stopped and not going anywhere for the rest of the day.

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Dec-17




I don't get it. I've read this entire thread and a few similar threads in the past. So what you're saying is a sight and an elevated rest will help folks shoot more accurately. Can't argue with that, but nothing new there.

If you have some other piece of equipment or technique crucial to this equation, why the reluctance to share it?

From: David A.
Date: 06-Dec-17




I'll post a pic of the stabilizer tonight. If you use fingers, you have to get a nearly perfect release. More than that it's about the accuracy formula. Extreme steadiness is the other half of of the equation.

It's a simple formula. Do we all get it? Well, intellectually understanding is one thing, but how many people are doing it? Amongst bowhunters, very few. My guess is that probably less than 5% could score above 220 on the 300 round with the actual equipment they hunt with, much less a more severe test such as a 52" bow.

But it can be easily done if we solve the problems of accuracy. It' is stunningly simple, yet few can do it. So, do we REALLY understand the formula for accuracy? Many trad. bowhunters love to brag about how light their bows are. OK, fine. And some can indeed shoot them well. I think you are going to have one heck of a time shooting a short light bow well.

Bear manufactured lots of KMs, to fill a want. People want to shoot short bows well. Very few can. But it is not a fault of lack of talent. It is a mechanical issue more than lack of talent. These mechanical problems are beatable, even though Murphy's law is hard to beat as the guy really does sit on everyone's shoulder it seems...But he can he knocked off and then bingo!, smooth sailing...

Btw, the rest is not that critical. You can shoot very well shooting off the shelf. It takes more effort to get great arrow flight, initially. Yes, at the very highest levels, it is important, that's why of course it is often illegal in many tournaments. Things that help accuracy are often made to be illegal, rest, and sights even a very simple sight per above. Fine, they can have their little rules, so use the arrow tip.

I actually prefer not to use a rest. And surprise, most of my bows do not have a sight as described above. I use a different method, but that is not the topic here. I do try to go as simple as possible.

From: dean
Date: 06-Dec-17




The 46" Herters that I posted about, he used a sight and Wilson strap tab. Later he got real fancy on his other bow and got a Herters bow arm. Pull back the bow, rest the palm on the thing, take all day to line up the sights and release. Awkward and clumsy, but it was accurate. My first shooting machine was just the same principle, adjustable draw, hand drawn, palm rest and finger released. Could really stack arrows with, but have a four Saunders mat on wheels really helped with the arrow placement. It didn't working for hunting very well, dang deer never stood in the right place long enough.

From: Demmer
Date: 06-Dec-17




Is this thread worth reading?

From: David A.
Date: 06-Dec-17




John, you try to shoot some high scores with a KM, as good as you are. I'll be the first to praise your talent if you can do one w/o a sight or stabilizer.

From: David A.
Date: 06-Dec-17




I'll extend that challenge to anyone in the world...And by a high score, I'd say anything about 270 on the 300 round. I'll truly be impressed. You have great form, so maybe you can do it. Try it. I know one Olympian that says he is doing good to break 220.

The point is not a contest, the point really is that a lot of bowhunters are trying to do something that is simply not feasible and yet this is what occurs every hunting season.

The reality is, most bowhunters even with more reasonable rigs are not that accurate. It's a problem. So yes, I think the thread is worth reading unless you don't care about hunting accuracy and/or are happy with things just as they are.

From: David A.
Date: 06-Dec-17




I'll add this. I would have given a lot if someone watching me shoot years ago would have come up to me and said, "David, you are not going to be happy wounding a lot of deer and missing bucks you could have taken if you continue to shoot that way..." I mean really make an impression on me and tell me to my face "you will fail your potential if you continue down this road."

And by "that way" I mean pretty much the way most bowhunters are shooting which is unstable regardless of their aiming method. Now, you do have a stable form so maybe you take all of this for granted. I guess I'm kinda' slow because it took years and years for it to sink in.

From: Ihunts2much
Date: 06-Dec-17




Modernlongbow nailed it: "If you really feel a 52” KM can rival the accuracy of say a 68” WA legal barebow, either the barebow is not properly setup, or the archer is not able to achieve a potential greater than the kmag can offer

From: Draven
Date: 06-Dec-17




The accuracy of an archer is the same with any type of bow if you give him enough time with each bow. The myth of tool potential breaks around 250/300 on NFAA target, is something else that makes for the difference and is not the tool.

From: dean
Date: 06-Dec-17




This is debate free and I am not debating nor slowly beating around the bush. I was a pretty good target shot way back when, but there was a gap in those same years of game taken with a bow when I was 100% a target style shooter. The way I hunted and the game did not match the target method that I became proficient at. I copied Vic Berger. No pheasants, rabbits, squirrels or deer got taken in those years. It is possible that the target work gave me a discipline that helped how I practiced when I went to the Hill method. As a youngster I saw all of those Fred Bear films and copied him. I cannot contest what David is saying nor can I criticize it or compare it to any other methodology, because he has not stated, shown or proven anything that has not come around before.

From: Demmer
Date: 06-Dec-17




David, ild never shoot a kmag. Not worth me even wasting my time to pick it up. I've shot 62" off the shelf recurves shooting 280+ scores on a fita face. Good enough?

From: Demmer
Date: 06-Dec-17




What are your stipulations anyway? Gotta be 60# too??

From: Hal9000
Date: 06-Dec-17




We had a guy around here that shot an #80 metal riser wing recurve back in the day, barebow, no stab off a flipper rest with an 80 yard point on. Index finger in the corner of his mouth, split finger. Shot the same way indoors and had a 290 average on a 300 round. Was told about him when I switched to trad back in the early 80's by the local pro shop owner. Actually got to meet him 25 years after that. I will see what length his bow is. It wasn't a kmag but might be shorter proportionally considering he had a 30" draw. Not Kmag short, but probably not a 68" or 70" bow. He was primarily a hunter, just shot targets for fun.... he sure made an impression on the target archers back then (they still talk about him today.) He also canted the bow a little. I have never heard the shooting experts today talk about the things he told me that were important to shooting that good. His name was Larry Bloomer - 7 time Iowa State Champion. He didn't shoot 290 occasionally, that was his average.

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




John, as good as you are there's a huge difference between 62" and 52". The riser has more mass for starters. I don't know why you are debating this. You know stability is key. That's largely what I'm emphasizing here. Your very success proves my point. I've studied your form. You are super steady. My compliments, so why are you saying "is this necessary?". It sure is necessary.

Bow mass helps hugely. But one can also dominate the bow by going down in bow wt. or being strong enough to have near complete stability at 60 lbs. 80 lbs or whatever you can dominate. It's easier to dominate a longer bow. If you want to dominate a 52" bow, most people will need some help. You have much less mass everything else being equal and you have finger pinch. I'm pointing out it can be done and that there is a simple formula for this. Yet, it is being ignored by most bowhunters. It is not being ignored by top tournament shooters. There is not one top level tournament shooter that does not dominate the bow.

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




Hal, that's truly impressive. No surprise he used a metal riser. There is no room for error shooting at those levels. But there is a formula. Whether you can implement the formula is another matter. But knowing about it is step 1. Having a bow that enables you to implement it easily is step 2. I really didn't give this much thought when I was younger.

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




John, I want hunters to be as good a shot as you are. Please take that as a compliment. I study success. I suggest bowhunters do as well.

From: dean
Date: 07-Dec-17




Larry was a great shot on still targets. I am not sure that 290 average was always maintained, but it was higher than most everyone else. Those metal Wings were cold buggers to hang on to, so was my metal Black Widow, covered mine with Goop to warm it up. His form was simply the basics. One tall kid here that wanted to shoot Hill style had to stick to that same basic long draw form that Larry would approve with a recurve that I picked up real cheap and killed the first deer that came with in 25 yards of him with a perfect shot.

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



As promised, here is a pic of the stabilizer. It is made out of tungsten. I had two made to get it right. It's really not that big, only 4", but it adds tremendous mass to the KM. It's far heavier than steel, heavier than even lead. And it worked great! That is, until it broke as the pic shows. It was a $1400 experiment.

Who pays this kind of money for a stabilizer? Well, for me it was worth more than the bow. It was really worth as much as the full out tournament bow shown in the beginning post, because only with this much mass could I shoot the little KM as good or nearly as good as that comparably priced tournament bow.

How much do you want success? Maybe you don't have the money to have a specially machined tungsten riser, but the experiment could have been done for a lot less with a solid steel stabilizer albeit a lot bigger. I had to go to tungsten because I wanted a a convenient hunting size stabilizer.

Regardless, that stabilizer proved to be worth 30-50 points accuracy wise on the 300 round. I found that to be amazing. Mr. Murphy sits on my shoulder laughing as often as not. But, aha, I think I'll have the last laugh. I'll have the base drilled for a steel fitting and all should be well.

You may have little interest in shooting short bows well. But whatever archery problems you have, likely there are solutions and for archery accuracy the biggest arguably is alignment accuracy and stability at and through the release.

These posts may not seem important at all to those more accomplished. However, I just wish someone would have given me this perspective years ago; shaken me by the shoulders if necessary until I really got the message. I hope this helps anyone out there who think it is a talent thing and they just don't have it.

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




Dean, I had the Black Widow Hunter from the 60s. It was an overdraw metal riser with a lot of mass plus a stabilizer. I still have that bow and it also is extremely accurate because of the mass even though it is 55# and very short at 54". I shot some pretty good groups for Olympic coach Alexander Kirillov. He said if he had gotten to me when I was younger he would have made me Olympic champion...haha, well that exactly what he said...it wasn't talent, coach. It was that bows mass and my little release thing...

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




He took videos of everything, from every angle and had not a single complaint. I learned my form by watching John Demmer, and all the other great IBO tournament champions, focusing specifically on stability.

https://youtu.be/WutT9gSl49Y

From: dean
Date: 07-Dec-17




I had a short mercury filled stabilizer on my 60" and bowsights with a a bubble, my my BW strap tab had a filler, for traction so I could use it with the 52 pound bow. Larry Bloomer broke some kind of a 900 round record by a good margin a few years back out east. He was older than me by maybe 15 years. I don't remember if that was for his age group the tournament as a whole, nor do I remember where the tournament was. It came up in a camp fire conversation at a 3d shoot.

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




zetabow, thanks. I agree re: bowhunters. It's form and equipment not talent. I claim no special talent at all but then I don't think archery takes that much talent per se. It's good form and the necessary equipment to do the job. At the highest levels, I'm sure it takes mental strength. but that can be developed as well. In the end, RESOLVE. Do what is necessary.

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




dean, I have that BW strap release. I couldn't shoot it very well esp. in cold weather typical of hunting season as the thumb gets weaker at least mine does in cold weather. I guess the tournament archers back then didn't use it because of the rules?

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




" have a specially machined tungsten riser" should read "tungsten stabilizer". My gosh, a tungsten riser, whew!

--/--

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




For the level of stability I'm seeking in a hunting bow, compare Cesar Vera's overall form and esp. bow arm and arrow tip stability compared to his competitor close to, at, and after release. I don't know if Sr. Vera is really any more talented than many who might be following this thread, but he certainly is an excellent model.

https://youtu.be/IuVu8DUh2Z4

From: Demmer
Date: 07-Dec-17




Now wasn't debating anything. I just find it rather pointless for someone with a 28 to 30 inch draw shooting a 52 inch bow. What I find funny is all these long draw shooters that shoot a bow that long then complain about how the bow didnt hold up and started the show stress cracks in the glass. You probably shouldn't be pushing 52 inch bows all the time. Just saying. And I love seeing the little Jabs you throw out there and then just say no it's a compliment. ??????

From: SteveBNY
Date: 07-Dec-17




Worth repeating: "Exceptions will always exist, but exceptions should never be passed off as the rule."

From: tecum-tha Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 07-Dec-17




Could have used a slightly larger diameter machined from steel and fill with cast lead for the stabilizer. But people like to spend their money on different toys. I also recommend to use gold next time. Will get you almost 2 grams/cubic centimeter more mass, lol.

From: tecum-tha Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 07-Dec-17




Platinum instead of gold of course.

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




John, there are some short bows that don't stack as you know. I draw 26" because my release shortens the draw about two inches so it wasn't a problem for me. But, right you wouldn't want to have stack.

There's another reason for short bows, they handle well even if shot vertically in most of the popular bow blinds. Once you put a sight pin and stabilizer on a bow, I no longer like to cant the bow. Just doesn't feel right to me. The KMs were very popular and many bowhunters do love their show bows.

Maybe the above will help someone else. There is a success formula for them as I have attempted to present. Even so, going with a tungsten stabilizer is ridiculously expensive. Probably an 8" to 12" steel one with relatively large diameter would be ok, but one still has to solve the string pinch/angle problem or else have an exceptional two or three finger release.

Such a big stabilizer would begin to look a bit dorky, but I guess some people and certainly the deer (etc.) wouldn't mind. Anyone who is interested, give it a try. A machine shop probably can make one for $100. Using cast lead as a filler or even better, mercury, are other good ideas but would add to machining costs.

Anyway, I'm having mine fixed with a threaded steel insert and will get it camo'd later. Should be good for a lifetime. Pretty soon I'll sell the tournament bow, won't need it as I'm doing all of this for bowhunting and make no claims to be a tournament archer.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 07-Dec-17




I prefer to do weights at a gym and carry a bow that weighs a pound in the woods.

This thread is a classic case of a solution looking for a problem.

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




Elderly, actually the bow isn't that heavy. I wouldn't have any problem roaming the hills with it although one can simply unscrew the stabilizer if one was going from point A to point Z. Disagree, with the sentiment...the biggest problem as far as accuracy is concerned arguably is stability of aiming through and a moment after the release.

There are simple formulas or statements of fact that are similarly not appreciated in other sports as well. For example in golf, in my opinion, it is loss of club head lag before impact. A simple statement that few golfers esp. amateur golfers truly take seriously/comprehend. If you want to be a good ball striker you simply cannot violate that fact/law.

In archery you have to be aimed correctly regardless of your aiming system even if you shoot instinctively and you have to stabilize that for a certain albeit brief moment of time, at and through the release...at least if you want consistent accuracy. It sounds simple. It sounds obvious. But I didn't really get it for a long time.

From: David A.
Date: 07-Dec-17




"...love their show bows"...should read "...short bows". And there's always a lot of short bows for sale on the used bow market...

From: cch
Date: 08-Dec-17




Steve Gorr has killed probably over a hundred animals with a 52" recurve. They have been proven to be good hunting length bows.

From: zetabow
Date: 08-Dec-17




"For the level of stability I'm seeking in a hunting bow, compare Cesar Vera's overall form"

I would say Cesar is talented, I shot with him in France WA3D worlds where he went on to win. He has a very low draw elbow but BT and alignment is very strong, on the practice range before finals (under pressure, well I was at least lol) he was shooting 30m groups you could almost pull out with one hand.

He was not the only one shooting those impressive groups on the practice range but he was the only one that could continue it under actual tourney pressure and it was a well deserved win for him.

From: David A.
Date: 08-Dec-17




I think there must be variation in should joints, because not everyone (actually very few) can get a level/low draw elbow...It does help a little to start out the draw with the shoulder low and then bring the hand up to anchor at the end of the draw vs. straight back, but not much at least for me. I can't even force my elbow near that low. A lower draw wt. helps just a little...

From: David A.
Date: 08-Dec-17




It is somewhat easier with a very low anchor and also if one cants the bow. I still think the was Cesar is able to do it is because of a difference in shoulder joint. Opinions?

From: Autumn Moon
Date: 08-Dec-17




If you want to shooot short bows well you need to shoot them a lot. You also need to understand your own limitations with any bow regardless of length.Inheriant accuraccy between any two bows will be the same.Real world accuracy is a different story. Some people shoot short bows well, some do not. The longer bow will always be far easier to shoot to a particular score during competition.The hunting bow and the target bow are different horses all togather. While tthe target bow can be used in the hunting field with success the opposite is not so true when shooting a short bow.If you disagree then show me one persobn who has won a major tournament with a K. Mag. Killed lots of game ? most definatly. I have used a K Mag to hunt with since their introduction (1961) I have killed a lot of game with them. I shoot them pretty much every day and feel that is key. I have also won a lot of tournaments, especially back in the seventies but would not consider useing my beloved K mag in anything I really cared about scoring well with in a tournament. If you find you can not shoot a K mag well enough to hunt you need to practice more and learn to get closer to your game.I must admit I really dont understand what you are saying ? The short bow is not suitable for target work ? or its no good to hunt with ? By the way I draw 28 inches and minus sight can reach about a 220 average with a unsighted K mag without rest or stabeliser. That goes up to around 260 with a 64 in Bear take down and a little better still with my Hoyt fita rig.Each length of bow has a specific purpose,indoor,field, and hunting so why not use them in the way they were madse to be used /

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 08-Dec-17




The West Coast natives with their 3 foot bows would have got a good chuckle out of this thread.

Maybe they lashed a couple of pounds of Basalt to their handles though.

From: zetabow
Date: 08-Dec-17




Just less physical and mental effort required with longer bow. Why make it any harder than needed. I won European 3D champs a few years back, after 4 days I won by 1 point, a big risk to not take every advantage the rules offer.

People tend to use every advantage the rules offer in tourney, for other types of shooting it can be about different challenges.

From: David A.
Date: 08-Dec-17




I took pains to make it relatively EZ...other wise it wouldn't have worked for me. I'm looking for simple solutions for bowhunting accuracy. However, I didn't reveal all, but then my main point was stability of aiming through and just after release...if you want accuracy, "do what is necessary to solve the problems..."

From: David A.
Date: 08-Dec-17




...to solve problems, list 'em and solve them one by one. There are not that many and I've already give the overall formula. It's so simple that I don't think it is being taken seriously. Yet, it is the formula for all archery accuracy.

ACCURATE AIMING ALIGNMENT AT AND JUST AFTER THE RELEASE.

You have to have stability. You have to have accurate aiming. And you have to have a very good release. How do you achieve each one? It's more about solving problems than practicing, IMO.

Form obviously is important and part of all this, but a 10 yr. old kid can have perfect form. You can learn perfect form in 5 minutes. Yet, I was on the wrong path for many many years, myself. However, good luck doing it with a bow that you cannot dominate.

From: Big Dog
Date: 09-Dec-17




"You have to have stability. You have to have accurate aiming. And you have to have a very good release. How do you achieve each one? It's more about solving problems than practicing, IMO."

When you put in those terms, why not just shoot a tricked out compound? I believe they have solved all the problems such that you don't have to practice much. :o) Regards

From: fdp
Date: 09-Dec-17




The reason not to shoot a tricked out compound is because all of the things mentioned ( accurate aiming, stability, good release) are all very attainable with recurves and longbows just as they are with compounds. And all these things are the foundation for accurate, repeastable results with any type of bow.

And this is clearly doucumented throughout history with the scores (actaul tournament scores) that were put up by Horace Ford, Gilman Keasy, Jim Ploen, and a couple of guys on this thread.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Dec-17




Not sure what wanting to be very accurate has to do with shooting a tricked out compound.

From: gluetrap
Date: 09-Dec-17




wouldn't the same thing apply to the arrow?? 1820 should be king at the target range?...ron

From: Big Dog
Date: 09-Dec-17




Fellas, "It's more about solving problems than practicing" is what inspired the tricked out compound statement. No, I don't shoot a compound and I realize if you are so inspired you can trick out a stickbow. Most people don't and from what I read of David's posts he only cares about hunting applications. To me, that means why not just join the other million six people who just pickup their compound a day or two before season just to make sure everything good and go a hunting. Regards

From: David A.
Date: 09-Dec-17




Big Dog, you can shoot instinctively or gap shoot and the formula still applies if you want to be accurate.

I know some people WANT trad. archery to be hard. Well you're in heaven because it is hard the way the majority of people do it. The majority, and we've all seen this at shoots and in camp don't have stability, don't have good form, don't have a good release, and don't have accurate aiming. Really, not that many guys today consistently take big bucks, bulls, etc. with trad bows. Now before everyone jumps on me citing numerous exceptions, yes there are numerous exceptions...out of tens of thousands of participants.

Congratulations to the predominant paradigm and it's author(s). Fortunately, the fixed crawl method is making something of a dent in recent years and is growing in popularity. This method, has some excellent proponents and when we see them shoot so accurately, naturally we aspire to that and ask ourselves, "why can't I"?

Well, I think most of us can. Let's break it down and ask how and why they can do it...what are the principles of accuracy and can they apply to hunting bows and not just tournament bows? And can we even take it farther and yet retain simplicity?

In my case, I imagined why a 52" Kodiak Magnum in a vice or shooting machine could probably shoot as accurate as a tricked out 70" tournament bow...some of the above is what I came up to emulate it. May not be for everyone, but I'm happy and wanted to share some of it, particularly regarding stability.

From: mgerard Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Dec-17




This gets drawn out way too long. Can't hold my interest anymore. Hope someone gets something out of it though.

From: David A.
Date: 09-Dec-17




The predominant paradigm is what has been drawn out too long. For decades. I just lost interest in it after missing too many bucks...wounding them was worse. I said to myself, something has to be done.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Dec-17




Big Dog, nothing personal was meant with my comment. It just seems that is a reflex response when anyone wants to try something different with a recurve...or even longbow. Yeah, I think Dave's ideas are a little eccentric at times...pun intended. However, I've seen it all before back in a previous century prior to the advent of the compound. And add to that I'm getting older and grouchier by the day. ))). It's all good in the long run and doesn't affect how I operate.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 09-Dec-17




Seems that locating big bucks and getting a shooting situation is a bigger hurdle than how a shooting chance is taken.

Is it really harder to hit a bigger buck than a small deer?

You make it sound like shooting large bucks is the main goal of every trad guy. More of them seem to consider it a potential bonus but not the be all and end all.

From: Draven
Date: 09-Dec-17




What David is saying is right. Practice is not making you perfect, but perfect practice yes. And to make a practice perfect you need to know what to work on to.

From: David A.
Date: 09-Dec-17




Elderly, exactly, it's not the end all. Exciting, but there are many elements of the hunt to be enjoyed.

From: dean
Date: 09-Dec-17




I made a shooting machine in the 70s, it started out simple and got more complicated with various rebuilds. I could shoot tighter groups with longbows by hand than the first machine would do. I built another in the 80s with a release mechanism and some cushion in the clamp. It required specific tuning for the machine and the release with bows tested. That one would stack arrows tight, but the odd thing, the longbows I stuck in the clamp shot just as accurate when I drew it by hand and finger released, versus using the crank and the release. One day my crank handle broke and that ended it. The release was used in a school project and the hardwood 4by4s were used in a campfire. I am not offended by anyone messing with systems and gadgets, but those experimenters should take care to not declare that those who do not use them get categorized as inferior fools. I saw that when everyone got Bear Whitetail Hunter compounds, they believed they were superior to everyone and some became arrogant bullies. Everyone thought they could be a bow hunter over night. Bowhunting does not always work that way, animals do not cooperate, especially the little fast critters. Those magical green junkers were hardly the end all to archery like some thought they were at the time.

From: felipe
Date: 09-Dec-17




And so it goes, if you are not part of the solution, you must be part of the precipitant...

From: David A.
Date: 10-Dec-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



If there have been arrogant bullies, perhaps they are to be found in the ranks of the trad. gate keepers. Here is my little green monster with the first version stabilizer. Even the smaller version shown here has super mass, more than if it was solid lead.I think I'll get it all camo'd.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Dec-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



Field test...

From: mahantango
Date: 10-Dec-17




Very nice David! Keep up your quest, at least you get people thinking.

From: Big Dog
Date: 10-Dec-17




At least you are shooting the right K.M. Gotta love those greenies! I have put snakeskin on mine....like the way the green cast comes through. Regards

From: David A.
Date: 10-Dec-17




I do like the overall appearance of this green and I wouldn't camo it except the front limb has a long unsightly scratch. This KM didn't have the white front accents, which was nice. What was Bear archery thinking when they decided to put white front accents on a lot of their bows? You sure don't want to be waving a bunch of white up when you draw back - or swing up on game if it's looking at you or in your direction.

From: SB
Date: 10-Dec-17




If it doesn't have the white overlays on the riser it is a 1976 model. Last of the Grayling Bears! Personally I never cared for the green models,so my Bear collection ends at 1975. I'd take a CHEAP shootable green Magnum in L/H though! Don't have much in the way of lefty's since I had to switch to L/H shooting. Never could shoot the Magnum worth a hoot when I was shooting R/H due in part to TP issues. Since switching sides made all of that disappear...I'd like to try again!

From: David A.
Date: 10-Dec-17




The white overlays and even white on a bows limb tips are examples of doing something to sell bows vs. making the bow effective (for hunting at least). I guess I'm a perfectionist, but the one thing I've learned time and again in the field is the smallest of things can make the difference between success and failure. It is an uphill slog to get everything right so a guy has a real chance in trad. bowhunting.

But once you get your shooting right, your arrows and other archery gear right, it's a great feeling of confidence vs. taking a walk with a bow and hoping. Takes some time and trial and error for sure.

From: 2 bears
Date: 10-Dec-17




Going to go digging through the junk boxes for a stabilizer. Haven't used one in years. I need to see what I am missing out on.I did go to longer bows for the accuracy and to eliminate finger pinch but I have been experimenting with other options. There are still some short bows in the rack. >>>----> Ken

From: Twisted Branch
Date: 10-Dec-17




I’ve got one shorty left. Had to sell my Kmag because of the weight and the ring finger on my right hand. I’m thinking about trying to find my old Walmart cobra release.

From: Autumn Moon
Date: 10-Dec-17




If white overlays and limb tips make the bow in question so non effective (Bear K. Mag) I am amazed that it was at one time the best selling bow in their line. Or that they have taken a lot of game. This idea that they are ineffective for hunting is pure bull S. and another what I call on line myth spread by people who have no clue what they are talking about or dont understand how sonmething is made to be used.Just because you cant use one well does not mean that there are not a lot of people who can. I agree that if you have a draw length over 29 inches they can be hard to shoot well. I am so sick of people saying a short bow like the K mag is useless that I am going to prove you wrong.The IBO world trad shoot in Wv in 2018.Bet I can make the top ten in recurve or senior with a K. Mag. Any takers ? Win it, not me. I am to old and beat up, shoot well enough to change your mind about short bows ? no question whatever.

From: 2 bears
Date: 10-Dec-17




I guess I missed the part where short bows were not effective and the K mag was worthless. I thought I read they were easier to handle in tight places,lighter to carry,and could be shot nearly as well as a full blown tricked out target rig. The only negative was white on the front of a bow was not the best for hunting, unless of course you are hunting in snow. There is a reason hunting bows are not white where a lot of target bow limbs are. That is right,they are not the best. I have been know to cover up white overlays. I doubt you dab white spots on your camo. Then again maybe I have a comprehension problem. Oh well carry on. >>>----> Ken

From: David A.
Date: 10-Dec-17




I have proved they are effective for hunting, but the white is just another thing that could alert deer when the opposite desire is usually the intention of a bowhunter. I'll challenge you Autumn Moon or anyone else to see who takes the next buck with a KM. I'm hunting desert mule deer and they are especially difficult...Good shooting.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Dec-17




Ken, thx. White miight work for antelope??? lol

From: dean
Date: 10-Dec-17




Maybe the shine of metal may have some over reflecting qualities, but I have shot a number of deer and even a turkey with white glassed bows and a back quiver loaded with white fletched arrows, the white on a Bear recurve is not enough to worry about.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Dec-17




Imagine how small a detail the slack in a cotton glove is around your fingers...some years ago, I called in a huge Arizona bull elk and he showed up a moment before I was ready. Face to face at 20 yds. I already had an arrow out and nocked it while I didn't take my eyes off the elk. But as I drew back, I was confronted with the fact the excess cotton material from the glove had gotten in between the nock and the string. I couldn't shoot! After a few seconds of watching my incompetence, the elk had enough, whirled and was gone...

Just a little bitty thing like that...details matter to me and it is a delight to solve even little problems...improving is a pleasure and there is always plenty to improve upon.

From: SB
Date: 11-Dec-17




Yep...I've shot a ton of game with Bears that have white tips and riser overlays. And a few with white glass limbs. Never proved to be an issue.But then I don't wave my bow around at the game before I shoot at it either,and use foliage and shadows for cover. Usually also have a bow quiver full of arrows with brite crown dips and fletching also.

From: David A.
Date: 11-Dec-17




Ever wonder why the Native Americans painted their arrows - analogous to the cresting many continue to do today? I suggest it helped them examine, improve and yes even love their arrows more than those who didn't. Over time, those who did that may have killed more game, eaten better, survived more.

I try not to leave anything for chance because I know the slim line between success and failure. A little something here and a little something there, it can really end up being that little thing that made all the difference. That said, if you love white rather than just put up with how the bow was made, I get it.

From: Shifty
Date: 11-Dec-17




I have a little 52" Pearson Recurve 35@28 and i can shoot it as good as my 62" if i use a strap release with it.But when it is cold outside i can't use that little release very well ,i just need a better type release.

From: Fisher Cat
Date: 11-Dec-17




I've been doing a little internet research and found this old Leatherwall thread interesting.- John

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=232764&messages=12&CATEGORY=5





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