So I know how to tune. Bare shaft is my preferred method. I can get most arrows to tune up pretty well. But for some reason with carbons even when I get one that bareshafts pretty decently the finished arrow often doesn’t fly so great. I have good form. And can group well. And my aluminum and wood arrows fly amazingly well. I’ve wanted to get a higher foc and stronger shafts but just can’t get em where I want em. Most of my bows are around 50 pounds at my draw. Don’t know if that’s the deal or what. Anybody else had similar issues? And what have ya done to fix it?

Bow weight has nothing to do with it, you do have to start in the ballpark with static spine. Also, carbons resist bending more, and correct quicker than any other material, so I'v found you need to think softer spine from the start than aluminum. You don't mention any size carbon, or tip weight, or string material, bow type....yada..yada..yada, so we can only make suggestions with those things at hand.

I will say this, there is no reason not to get some tuned but you have to work with the gozintos that are part of your and your bow's dynamics. Getting high FOC requires starting with stiffer shafts to begin but since you know how to tune, I suspect you know that already.

Carbon shafts react more and more quickly to a change in length than a change in point weight. Start with a longer than usual shaft length and make length adjustments in small increments.

If your bareshafts fly and group well, and your fletched arrows don't, it sounds like a clearance issue.

I really don't find that you need a softer spine with carbon, brcause static spine is static sine. The on'y dofference being that carbon due to the nature of the material, recovers from the initial bend imapted to by the string closer to the bow. ANd nothing else.

Grouping well is only important if the groups are where you want them to be. Are the groups that you shoot with bareshafts vertically in the center of your target, or are the grouped left or right of a vertical line indicating a spine issue? Are you tuning the arrows by cutting, by adding weight, or a combination of both? My experience is that if you are looking for EFOC, or UEFOC combinations, you pretty much have to decide on the broadhead weight you want to use, with a reasonbly spined shaft, and then trim the shaft to tune. The arrows end up at whatever length they end up. You can get closer to a predetermined finished length by trimming the shaft, and tuning the bow at the same time. Which most folks are reluctant to do for reasons I don't underst and since Bear did it, Hill did it, and on and on.

Bare shaft WHAT is your preferred method - there's two kind? If you're using kick out or angle of shaft it can drive you crazy.

If you truly do know how to tune and are using www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version', tell us the results and we'll tell you what the problem is.

No matter what you do you have to watch out for false readings.

Bowmania

Ken Beck's video has helped me the most of any bareshafting method. Consistency in your release is a huge positive in making it work.

https://youtu.be/BSJ6-HjPMTM

As mentioned above, fletching clearance might be a factor. I am now leaning towards the elevated rest crowd. Is that absolutely necessary? No. Does it help? Yes.

Also consider cock feather in when shooting. Then try cock feather straight up if "in" does not work.

The only thing about turning the cock feather is that you are masking something. If you have properly tunes arrows, and proper clearance. the way you nock the arrow really shouldn't make a difference.

I think I may have figured something out. Nock fit is substantially different. The carbon mocks are brutally tight. I would get them flying ok, but there is always this unexplainable little tick I never get with aluminum’s. I’m thinking nock has a lot to do with it. These things are REALLY tight.

Brutally tight nocks? )))) Well you may have found the source of the confusion.

[[[ "The only thing about turning the cock feather is that you are masking something. If you have properly tunes arrows, and proper clearance. the way you nock the arrow really shouldn't make a difference." ]]]

Frank, I agree with this - "If you have properly tunes arrows, and proper clearance. the way you nock the arrow really shouldn't make a difference.",

"EXCEPT"

When you have those instances of an errant loose, follow through, or other break downs in form, that can be brought on by a long list of things both inside & outside your ability to control.

We all suffer those on occasion, and in those instances you will find "cock fletch in" to be much more forgiving of them.

As far as bareshaft tuning carbons is concerned - I've found having my bareshafts a little weak on the shot gives me my best results in overall accuracy & flight of the arrows when fletched.

YMMV

Rick

Yea like so tight I can hold the arrow and the bow will hang lol.

Related: How do you guys trim your shafts without a purpose-built arrow cut-off saw?

Nock fit is always the first step i address when i begin the tuning process. Too tight can really mess with your results.

Gonna start with a thinner string and start the tuning attempt over.

Gonna start with a thinner string and start the tuning attempt over.

Nock fit is crucial...and so easy to overlook. I've done the same thing.

You're right George. I can't bareshaft weak consistently though because my form isn't that good. So, I get everything shooting together, then typically I am in the zone where I can make the other adjustments neccessary with brace height.

Heat those nocks in a cup of hot water, then place on string for better fit.

Jay got it

Related: How do you guys trim your shafts without a purpose-built arrow cut-off saw?

I don't, I bought a Weston 8,000rpm arrow saw for a little over $100 or so 7 0r 8 years ago and it's still like brand new. No 'J-rigging something not intended for arrows and always the perfect cut, just flip the switch be done with a couple dozen shafts in a few minutes.

Harbor Freight mini chop saw...cheap,and I've used mine for years.For carbons replace the metal blade with an abrasive cut off wheel.

takes a lot more weight to break down spine on a carbon, with GT 400`S cut 30.5 in. Im shooting 300 gr up front from a 51@28 Crooked Stic longbow, drawn 28 1/2-28 3/4.. Same shooting 53# Groves Mag Hunter I, shooting 29.5 GT 400 w/300 gr up front.. As said start long and cut off 1/4 in at a time.

I don't even bother to cut carbons. Easier to tweak point weight and side plate or plunger.

Yeah.... Not a fan of the 4” overhang out front.... though the full-length sight radius has something to recommend it if you’re a target guy....

You don't have to leave them full length, you just have to shoot the right spine related to the length that's all.

Like any other arrow material you can shoot any length you want to.

"You don't have to leave them full length, you just have to shoot the right spine related to the length that's all."

True enough, but for carbons I'd go *at least* one spine class lighter if I planned to cut them. Unless I also planned to front-weight the bejaysus out of 'em. ;-)

'The right spine' is usually way too soft on paper. Lots of folks shooting 600 spines from 50 pound bows.

Dana, that depends really. As I've said before, my experience doesn't show that carbon arrows are stiffer at all for a given spine. They just recover differently/more quickly. That fact is one of the reasons that we can get away with using heavier per spine points on carbon than on some other materials. Just liekin more primitive arrows bamboo arrows recover quicker than arrows made from shoots.

If I'm shooting a 50lb. bow, I'm likely going to be shooting arrows that spine 50lbs. (more or less just like other materials) at my desired arrow length, unless it is a bow that is way past center, has a hot rod string on it, or is carrying an oversize load on the front end.

A 50lb. static spine arrow, is a 50lb. static spine arrow, regardless of what it's made of.

But, I also dont set my bows up like the majority of folks do these days. Wasn't taught that way. I don't put stuff on the sight window to build it out unless it's to weaken an arrow. I don't orient the string and arrow point in the way that is popular these days. Perhaps the difference, I don't know.

Jim, can you explain to me and probably to fdp too, how a 'errant release' etc sloppy form can be affected less with a cock feather hitting a strike plate at 90 degrees, than a hen feather passing between the 90 degree 'V' created by the rest and strike plate.

You may be right, but it doesn't make sense to me. Feathers just shouldn't touch your rest or strike plate. If you show feather wear you're not tuned.

Further more if you plan for sloppy form, you're going to have sloppy form. Feathers correct mistakes, so I believe the best way to get good is shooting without them. I separates the men from the boys.

Bowmania Bowmania

I typically use a small file or sandpaper in the carbon nocks to lighten up the grip on my string. I always use carbons full length on trad gear. I've found 500s to fly really well out of a 50# bow with 200 grains up front, and 600s out of my 42 to 45# bows, with 175 or 200 grains up front. It may not make sense, but a 600 spine carbon also flies quite well out of my 50# bows.

" A 50lb. static spine arrow, is a 50lb. static spine arrow, regardless of what it's made of."

"They just recover differently/more quickly."

The latter negates the former, I think. Besides, there is more variance in diameters and GPI of carbons in a given spine class.

If you want 500 in alumimnum you have two choices - 2016 or 2114. Carbons run from super skinny to super fat, with enormous differences in wall thickness. Even is you stick to one diameter there are still differences in material, wall thickness and weight. (I only shoot .244-.246 ID and still find plenty of variation between, say, Vapor and Gold Tip.)

As I said, my preference is for lighter spine, full length, moderate point weight and flat shooting. Putting 200 + grains on the front of an arrow? Extreme FOC? Thanks, no.

Dana, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Static spine is the deflection of the shaft when I put it on my spine tester. The dynamic spine is the way the arrow behaves on release. So no, one doesn't cancel out the other.

And, I've never put a 200 gr, head on an arrow in my life. I RARELY go over 145.

The only affect that arrow diameter has in relation to the centershow measurement of the bow. And that's easilt manipulated if one chooses to do so.

I got that; the trouble is, how do we assign a number to dynamic spine? Because I have a hard time seeing how those correlate.

Stu's calculator takes in a bunch of factors but I'm not sure how it gets an actual 'value' for any combination in question.

You may not personally load the front of your arrows but see for instance the post directly avbove my last.

First carbons I bought, I ordered pre-cut. Ended up piling weight on so they'd fly 'okay'. Never did that again! My experience is that carbons just 'like' being long, and yeah, I know that sounds crazy. But what also sounds crazy to me is starting off in your mind with a pre-determined arrow length. ;-)

Dana - the correlation between static and dynamic is that under a specific load (the mass up front and the rate of acceleration), an arrow of a specific degree of stiffness will flex a certain amount... which can be calculated. You just need to figure out how much flex is required for each individual bow.

I’m pretty sure you know all of that... so I’m not sure why you said you don’t get the correlation??

what's your set up arrows? point weight?bow?

Not sure who you're asking gabowhunter. But mine right now is a 55lb. Sky Archery Rogue that's 55lbs. at my 28" draw. Arrows ae 29" BOP .600 Eastons which are ,510 on my spine tester (51lbs.) with 125 - 145 gr. points. A piece of .022 Maple veneer on the sight window and a thin piece of leather on the shelf. B-55 string. I'm not one that is enamored with the whole 10grs. per pound of draw weight idea either. So that does come in to play as well.

To answer the question related to applying a value to dynamic spine. That is done (or at least the way I do it) is by shooting a vertical line from 10-30 yards. I know some folks don't agree with that, but it works for me. I mostly ignore nock orintation, and look only at point of impact.

I get that some folks shoot stiff shafts and load them up, and carbon will let you do that. I also get that some folks don't want to start with a predetermined arrow length in mind, but I do. It really doesn't matter, simply because we all should end up in the same place when we get tuned any way.

didn't see the original posters set up ? sometimes it helps to know what the person is shooting? big difference in tuning carbons from traditional longbow to cut past center recurve

My setup is a browning wasp 48@28. I draw 28. Arrows at heritage 90’s 29” with 125 for points. As an update I heated and worked on nocks and they are flying MUCH better!

Old guys' opinion- the carbons have snap-on nocks, and the woodies and alloys have regular nocks? You must have a 'fatty' serving at the nock point. methinks. I have some old Bear Razorhead woodies I got in a quiver buy, and they fall right off my 'snap'on' serving so bad I can't even shoot them 3-under.

File out the nocks and shoot 'em up. Try different point weights to tune them up, cheapest way I.ve found.

All my carbons for a 29" draw and 50# bow are 500 spine.

TinHorn

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