Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Deep hook and cock Feather In?

Messages posted to thread:
semostickbow 14-Nov-17
Bowlim 15-Nov-17
WillMac 15-Nov-17
crookedstix 15-Nov-17
trad47 15-Nov-17
Caughtandhobble 15-Nov-17
TrapperKayak 15-Nov-17
Bender 15-Nov-17
semostickbow 15-Nov-17
Rick Barbee 15-Nov-17
Viper 15-Nov-17
Jim 15-Nov-17
Bowmania 15-Nov-17
Jim Davis 15-Nov-17
George D. Stout 15-Nov-17
Viper 15-Nov-17
Stix 15-Nov-17
Therifleman 15-Nov-17
Rick Barbee 15-Nov-17
dean 15-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 15-Nov-17
George Tsoukalas 15-Nov-17
Viper 15-Nov-17
Rick Barbee 15-Nov-17
Stonewall 15-Nov-17
Viper 15-Nov-17
dean 16-Nov-17
From: semostickbow
Date: 14-Nov-17




Wrapping up bareshaft testing and got good results finally. I changed to a deeper hook, had been in the first knuckle and kept getting stiff shaft. Deep hook straightened it out. Why? Second question: a fletched shaft made a lot of noise and kicked hard, until, I turned the cock feather in and it flew perfect and quiet. Why?

From: Bowlim
Date: 15-Nov-17




On the second, possibly because nock was low.

On the first cleaner release more energy into arrow, softens arrow. But if that were the case you would be very close to turning over the arrow, in which caxe several things could do it.

From: WillMac
Date: 15-Nov-17




Not to be just off the cuff here but . . . because . . . archery. Their are guidelines and best practices but there is a million nuances and individual characteristics to each archer+bow+arrow equation and that is archery. Enjoy it. Be glad you found the answer to this particular set of variables.

From: crookedstix
Date: 15-Nov-17




Hmmm...I though that the crease of the first knuckle WAS a deep hook. Anyway that's how I shoot, and with cock feather in.

From: trad47
Date: 15-Nov-17




I shoot cock feather in ,not intentionally ,however.. I practice nocking the arrow extracting from back quiver to the bow string. Don't look at the nock placement ever. Helps my accuracy and Makes no difference in the arrow flight. Feathers get ruffled sometimes.

From: Caughtandhobble
Date: 15-Nov-17




I will throw in my 2 cents...

1. Deeper hook makes a longer draw length, of coarse the longer draw places more energy in your arrow.

2. Noise is likely that you are not getting off the string in a smooth manner. The deeper hook is new to you and you're most like getting drag from your index finger causing more string vibration. A thicker tab will help with noise if this is the case. The cock feather in is most likely acting as a bumper off your riser, the feather is hitting the riser instead of the arrow shaft.

When my arthritis in my hand is bothering me, I have to shoot from the second knuckle in my index finger. My right hand is beat up from life and heavy bows in my younger days. I can tell you first hand that the real deep hook is a lot harder to get a smooth release, at least for me.

Make certain that you use two string nocks, above and below arrow. Just practice and see if you can get things lined out. The real deep hook can work but it takes practice to make it work smooth. Good luck and have fun.

From: TrapperKayak
Date: 15-Nov-17




Kerry, that's what I thought too. I was using fingertips - halfway between first knuckle and tip of finger and having the arrow slide off the rest a lot - before guys on here suggested going to first knuckle 'deep hook' to keep the arrow in place. It works way better for me that way. Now I'm gonna try cock feather in though. I have a tough time getting past the mental aspect of early learning to put cock feather out and still shoot that way. Seems a lot here get better results with it in.

From: Bender
Date: 15-Nov-17




Cock feather in gives best rest/shelf clearance for the lower hen feather. Depending of course on shelf width, and state of tune.

Deep hook is using the distal finger joint. That is the joint closest to the finger tips. But NOT out on the finger tips nor IN past that joint up to and including the proximal joint, the joint closest to the palm.

From: semostickbow
Date: 15-Nov-17




If I was in the first knuckle joint before, and that is a deep hook, then I’m in a deeper hook. I’m now between the first and second joint.

The bareshaft vs feather still baffles me. I was getting loud arrow contact when I was shooting in the first knuckle, before I tried a deeper hook. Every bow I’ve ever tuned before had perfect, quiet arrow flight when the bareshaft showed perfect. Illogical, but as someone said earlier, it’s archery. Weird how that turned out, just wanted to share in case someone else was experiencing that.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 15-Nov-17




Bender nailed it.

Rick

From: Viper
Date: 15-Nov-17




s -

If shooting cock feather in makes the bow quieter, then you some how tuned a stiff arrow to work. Think about it - a stiff arrow will result in the tail end of the arrow striking the riser. If you shoot cock feather in, you've supplied a cushion between the shaft and the riser. Give it a few weeks and you'll start seeing cock feather wear.

And for the record, if you know how to shoot and how to tune, any fletch orientation should work.

Viper out.

From: Jim Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 15-Nov-17




I agree with Viper, it doesn't matter if you have the right tune.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 15-Nov-17




Along with Viper, I think your not tuned. Try www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version'. Just because a shaft flies straight doesn't mean it's tuned. Could be that the shaft is so stiff that the bow can't bend it.

Your first question I'm not sure about. Maybe Viper can repost. I can only guess that when you shoot an arrow with the best release possible you get more force behind the arrow, hence requiring a stiffer arrow.

Bowmania

From: Jim Davis
Date: 15-Nov-17




You changed the position of your tongue without realizing it. I wrap mine around my right eye tooth and get good arrow flight with any arrow. I even get good arrow flight with my tongue in my cheek.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 15-Nov-17




""Not to be just off the cuff here but . . . because . . . archery. Their are guidelines and best practices but there is a million nuances and individual characteristics to each archer+bow+arrow equation and that is archery. Enjoy it. Be glad you found the answer to this particular set of variables.""

I'm liking that answer a lot. And the older I get, the more I like it. I shot a buck once that was coming directly upwind toward me. I can only guess he had a sinus issue, or some other idiosyncratic mess going on in his smeller system.

From: Viper
Date: 15-Nov-17




Todd -

I can't answer the OP's first question because I can't see what he's doing. Doing deeper than the first joint may result in him bending the arrow while at anchor and screwing with the tune. Just can't tell from here.

And yes, I've seen bare shafts impacting with the fletched ones at 20 yards, but flying downrange sideways... With whatever tuning "guide" you use, there has to be some element of common sense.

Viper out.

From: Stix
Date: 15-Nov-17




Even though there is probably a "good Reason" for cock feather in to give better arrow flight, I'm at the point of my life where I'm tired of worrying about it and just shoot with whatever configuration gives the best arrow flight and accuracy.

I left compound shooting 30 years ago because it was getting too complicated with all the micro-tuning, sight adjustment etc. everytime I went to the range. I'll be damned if I'm gonna do it with traditional equipment. Get good arrow flight/accuracy with whatever tuning method you use, then just shoot, enjoy, and have fun. Clear your mind!

From: Therifleman
Date: 15-Nov-17




Cock feather in can serve to get better clearance/ flight out of a marginally tuned arrow. You said you wrapped up bareshaft tuning. Just curious how far back from the target you ened up. I go back to 30 yards to micro tune. Better shots, i believe go even further. Distance can show you imperfections in form and tuning.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 15-Nov-17




If you dont't believe cock fletch in makes sense, then try this.

Tune you rig for what you think is perfect arrow flight (off the shelf) with cock fletch out feathers.

Shoot that rig for a decent length of time, and see if you have any feather wear.

I'm sure we all agree, that if you don't have any wear, then your tune is pretty good. If you do, then it ain't so good.

Now, refletch those arrows with vanes. You'll get the picture pretty quickly, and turn them all cock fletch in.

8^)

Rick

From: dean
Date: 15-Nov-17




I shoot longbows that are not center shot. I shoot cock feather in on some arrows, I do not get bad feather wear. My arrows must not be hitting the bow. On three fletch with cock feather out, I like to turn the nock so the high point of the hen feather tucks towards the corner and is not straight down. I like as low a nocking point as possible. I have had three different guys come for help with carbon arrows. With the most recent one, the 3 rivers chart said the were right on, but wow, were the arrows not flying right. Even my 3/8" from center bows have more spine tolerance than that. It was his release fingers twisting or torquing to palm down. Once he got that straightened out everything flew. The reason he bought the carbons because he said the arrows that i gave him for his new longbow did not fly. His problem started at the grip, which torqued for no good reason and that mirrored in his release fingers, which he torqued for no good reason. In all tuning problems, the first thing that needs a tuning check is the shooter.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 15-Nov-17




" shot a buck once that was coming directly upwind toward me. I can only guess he had a sinus issue, or some other idiosyncratic mess going on in his smeller system. "

This is what happens when you accidentlly splash on eau de doe instead of cologne.

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 15-Nov-17




Everyone is different. If I place the bow string along the crease of my first joint, it will automatically fall beyond that crease of my second and third fingers no matter ho much I curl them.

I shoot deep hook before I knew it was called deep hook. It allows me to relax the fingers of my drawing hand.

Can't advise about cock feather in. Never shot that way.

I don't get bad feather wear either and my arrows fly really well. No, I mean really well and they are silent on release. But I spend time tuning. Lots of time. I'm relentless.

But I shoot self bows. :)

Jawge

From: Viper
Date: 15-Nov-17




Rick -

I don't think so. Most vanes weigh considerably more than feathers (sometime over 4 times as much). That extra weight stiffens the arrow, and would require a different tune. And yes, that different tune could require going closer to center and reducing paradox.

And btw, I haven't shot feathers in years.

Viper out.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 15-Nov-17




Tony, I completely agree, but (there's always a but you know) I have done my testing making sure the tail weight (therefore the tune) remained the same via the use of nock inserts that can have weight applied to, or removed from them.

The bottom line is - whether your tune is spot on, or not - cock fletch in will lend itself to better clearance. That does not mean you have to have it, BUT it's there if needed.

Are you shooting vanes off the shelf? Just curious.

Rick

From: Stonewall
Date: 15-Nov-17




I am probably wrong but we always tuned to get the arrow to shoot around the shelf. Get bare shaft shooting kind of weak slap some feathers on it and go. I have always used weaker spines than is suggested

From: Viper
Date: 15-Nov-17




Rick -

It's pretty rare I will shoot anything except a longbow off the shelf. When when I do/did, the tune has to be spot on and that usually means weaker than most guys expect to get enough paradox.

With the tail weight thing, the vanes have to be pretty small compared to the feathers to give the same weight. In the testing I've done, it was using 5" feathers vs 1.75" vanes.

I guess the part that gets me about the cock feather in thing, is that probably 99.9+% of single string archers out there are shooting cock feather out and the other <.1% are shooting in. While possible, just seems odd that the rest of the guys haven't figured it out yet.

Viper out.

From: dean
Date: 16-Nov-17




I noticed it on Hill's videos when watching them in slow motion and when a local college kid was doing a video project I saw this on my shots as well. With bows that are outside of center, the arrow bends into the bow on release with both fingers and a mechanical release, until it has its momentum up. An object in motion tries to stay in motion and an object at rest tries to remain at rest. . What amazes me is how the perfect spine arrow when it is prying against the bow on the initial release can lift off the bow contact at the same place from arrow to arrow and then have no more contact to the bow. Even wood arrow that fly perfect will have that timing almost exact from arrow to arrow and they do the same every time. The one feather contact that I cannot remove is on the shelf, when that hen feather is going straight down. On that with the kids video work, I could see the feather hop from those to the arrows that clear the shelf better. I did not see any bump with the cock feather in arrows. As I stated I like my string nock to be as low as possible with ASL bows, just my stubborn thing with ASL bows. With something else no matter.





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