Wrapping up bareshaft testing and got good results finally. I changed to a deeper hook, had been in the first knuckle and kept getting stiff shaft. Deep hook straightened it out. Why? Second question: a fletched shaft made a lot of noise and kicked hard, until, I turned the cock feather in and it flew perfect and quiet. Why?

On the second, possibly because nock was low.

On the first cleaner release more energy into arrow, softens arrow. But if that were the case you would be very close to turning over the arrow, in which caxe several things could do it.

Not to be just off the cuff here but . . . because . . . archery. Their are guidelines and best practices but there is a million nuances and individual characteristics to each archer+bow+arrow equation and that is archery. Enjoy it. Be glad you found the answer to this particular set of variables.

Hmmm...I though that the crease of the first knuckle WAS a deep hook. Anyway that's how I shoot, and with cock feather in.

I shoot cock feather in ,not intentionally ,however.. I practice nocking the arrow extracting from back quiver to the bow string. Don't look at the nock placement ever. Helps my accuracy and Makes no difference in the arrow flight. Feathers get ruffled sometimes.

I will throw in my 2 cents...

1. Deeper hook makes a longer draw length, of coarse the longer draw places more energy in your arrow.

2. Noise is likely that you are not getting off the string in a smooth manner. The deeper hook is new to you and you're most like getting drag from your index finger causing more string vibration. A thicker tab will help with noise if this is the case. The cock feather in is most likely acting as a bumper off your riser, the feather is hitting the riser instead of the arrow shaft.

When my arthritis in my hand is bothering me, I have to shoot from the second knuckle in my index finger. My right hand is beat up from life and heavy bows in my younger days. I can tell you first hand that the real deep hook is a lot harder to get a smooth release, at least for me.

Make certain that you use two string nocks, above and below arrow. Just practice and see if you can get things lined out. The real deep hook can work but it takes practice to make it work smooth. Good luck and have fun.

Kerry, that's what I thought too. I was using fingertips - halfway between first knuckle and tip of finger and having the arrow slide off the rest a lot - before guys on here suggested going to first knuckle 'deep hook' to keep the arrow in place. It works way better for me that way. Now I'm gonna try cock feather in though. I have a tough time getting past the mental aspect of early learning to put cock feather out and still shoot that way. Seems a lot here get better results with it in.

Cock feather in gives best rest/shelf clearance for the lower hen feather. Depending of course on shelf width, and state of tune.

Deep hook is using the distal finger joint. That is the joint closest to the finger tips. But NOT out on the finger tips nor IN past that joint up to and including the proximal joint, the joint closest to the palm.

If I was in the first knuckle joint before, and that is a deep hook, then I’m in a deeper hook. I’m now between the first and second joint.

The bareshaft vs feather still baffles me. I was getting loud arrow contact when I was shooting in the first knuckle, before I tried a deeper hook. Every bow I’ve ever tuned before had perfect, quiet arrow flight when the bareshaft showed perfect. Illogical, but as someone said earlier, it’s archery. Weird how that turned out, just wanted to share in case someone else was experiencing that.

Bender nailed it.

Rick

s -

If shooting cock feather in makes the bow quieter, then you some how tuned a stiff arrow to work. Think about it - a stiff arrow will result in the tail end of the arrow striking the riser. If you shoot cock feather in, you've supplied a cushion between the shaft and the riser. Give it a few weeks and you'll start seeing cock feather wear.

And for the record, if you know how to shoot and how to tune, any fletch orientation should work.

Viper out.

I agree with Viper, it doesn't matter if you have the right tune.

Along with Viper, I think your not tuned. Try www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version'. Just because a shaft flies straight doesn't mean it's tuned. Could be that the shaft is so stiff that the bow can't bend it.

Your first question I'm not sure about. Maybe Viper can repost. I can only guess that when you shoot an arrow with the best release possible you get more force behind the arrow, hence requiring a stiffer arrow.

Bowmania

You changed the position of your tongue without realizing it. I wrap mine around my right eye tooth and get good arrow flight with any arrow. I even get good arrow flight with my tongue in my cheek.

""Not to be just off the cuff here but . . . because . . . archery. Their are guidelines and best practices but there is a million nuances and individual characteristics to each archer+bow+arrow equation and that is archery. Enjoy it. Be glad you found the answer to this particular set of variables.""

I'm liking that answer a lot. And the older I get, the more I like it. I shot a buck once that was coming directly upwind toward me. I can only guess he had a sinus issue, or some other idiosyncratic mess going on in his smeller system.

Todd -

I can't answer the OP's first question because I can't see what he's doing. Doing deeper than the first joint may result in him bending the arrow while at anchor and screwing with the tune. Just can't tell from here.

And yes, I've seen bare shafts impacting with the fletched ones at 20 yards, but flying downrange sideways... With whatever tuning "guide" you use, there has to be some element of common sense.

Viper out.

Cock feather in can serve to get better clearance/ flight out of a marginally tuned arrow. You said you wrapped up bareshaft tuning. Just curious how far back from the target you ened up. I go back to 30 yards to micro tune. Better shots, i believe go even further. Distance can show you imperfections in form and tuning.

If you dont't believe cock fletch in makes sense, then try this.

Tune you rig for what you think is perfect arrow flight (off the shelf) with cock fletch out feathers.

Shoot that rig for a decent length of time, and see if you have any feather wear.

I'm sure we all agree, that if you don't have any wear, then your tune is pretty good. If you do, then it ain't so good.

Now, refletch those arrows with vanes. You'll get the picture pretty quickly, and turn them all cock fletch in.

8^)

Rick

I shoot longbows that are not center shot. I shoot cock feather in on some arrows, I do not get bad feather wear. My arrows must not be hitting the bow. On three fletch with cock feather out, I like to turn the nock so the high point of the hen feather tucks towards the corner and is not straight down. I like as low a nocking point as possible. I have had three different guys come for help with carbon arrows. With the most recent one, the 3 rivers chart said the were right on, but wow, were the arrows not flying right. Even my 3/8" from center bows have more spine tolerance than that. It was his release fingers twisting or torquing to palm down. Once he got that straightened out everything flew. The reason he bought the carbons because he said the arrows that i gave him for his new longbow did not fly. His problem started at the grip, which torqued for no good reason and that mirrored in his release fingers, which he torqued for no good reason. In all tuning problems, the first thing that needs a tuning check is the shooter.

Everyone is different. If I place the bow string along the crease of my first joint, it will automatically fall beyond that crease of my second and third fingers no matter ho much I curl them.

I shoot deep hook before I knew it was called deep hook. It allows me to relax the fingers of my drawing hand.

Can't advise about cock feather in. Never shot that way.

I don't get bad feather wear either and my arrows fly really well. No, I mean really well and they are silent on release. But I spend time tuning. Lots of time. I'm relentless.

But I shoot self bows. :)

Jawge

Rick -

I don't think so. Most vanes weigh considerably more than feathers (sometime over 4 times as much). That extra weight stiffens the arrow, and would require a different tune. And yes, that different tune could require going closer to center and reducing paradox.

And btw, I haven't shot feathers in years.

Viper out.

Tony, I completely agree, but (there's always a but you know) I have done my testing making sure the tail weight (therefore the tune) remained the same via the use of nock inserts that can have weight applied to, or removed from them.

The bottom line is - whether your tune is spot on, or not - cock fletch in will lend itself to better clearance. That does not mean you have to have it, BUT it's there if needed.

Are you shooting vanes off the shelf? Just curious.

Rick

I am probably wrong but we always tuned to get the arrow to shoot around the shelf. Get bare shaft shooting kind of weak slap some feathers on it and go. I have always used weaker spines than is suggested

Rick -

It's pretty rare I will shoot anything except a longbow off the shelf. When when I do/did, the tune has to be spot on and that usually means weaker than most guys expect to get enough paradox.

With the tail weight thing, the vanes have to be pretty small compared to the feathers to give the same weight. In the testing I've done, it was using 5" feathers vs 1.75" vanes.

I guess the part that gets me about the cock feather in thing, is that probably 99.9+% of single string archers out there are shooting cock feather out and the other <.1% are shooting in. While possible, just seems odd that the rest of the guys haven't figured it out yet.

Viper out.

I noticed it on Hill's videos when watching them in slow motion and when a local college kid was doing a video project I saw this on my shots as well. With bows that are outside of center, the arrow bends into the bow on release with both fingers and a mechanical release, until it has its momentum up. An object in motion tries to stay in motion and an object at rest tries to remain at rest. . What amazes me is how the perfect spine arrow when it is prying against the bow on the initial release can lift off the bow contact at the same place from arrow to arrow and then have no more contact to the bow. Even wood arrow that fly perfect will have that timing almost exact from arrow to arrow and they do the same every time. The one feather contact that I cannot remove is on the shelf, when that hen feather is going straight down. On that with the kids video work, I could see the feather hop from those to the arrows that clear the shelf better. I did not see any bump with the cock feather in arrows. As I stated I like my string nock to be as low as possible with ASL bows, just my stubborn thing with ASL bows. With something else no matter.

ttt because, well, I do shoot a deep hook, and...

Been fooling around with a new/old bow (Dreamcatcher) and while it's shooting 'good' I get the feeling it could do better. Thouht the arrows were a bit stiff, so yesterday I switched from 125 grain tips to 145. Slight improvement but inconsistent.

Yeah, part of that is always the shooter! But then I noticed that a couple arrows I had re-fletched one feather were not perfectly 120-120-120 degrees. Hmmm.

For my last 4 shots I turned the cock feather in. Arrows flew fine, and all 4 were in a near-perfect vertical line. I'm still stringing up-down but I've been fighting that forever. The line was a hair to the left so I suspect they're still a bit stiff, but I'm going to try them again, with 175 grain points.

I'd never thought much of the whole cock-feather-in idea, and it still 'just looks wrong!' but I'm going to fool with it some more.

I agree if you're well tuned, fletch orientation makes no difference. I shoot cock feather out, in and on some shelf configurations,up. Now that I think about it, with most bows, it's in or up. Anybody else get good results using cock fletch up?

I have/had one set-up that shot best cock fletch up. I can no more explain that than cf-in. What works, works, theory be hanged. ;-)

If you have a properly spined arrow it shouldn’t matter which way the cock feather is shot.

It shows you are a tad stiff since the feathers aren't clearing. Turning the cock feather in will roatate the feathers out of the way and you can get a better pass. It's telling you that you should likely address tuning again. Been there and done that. Nothing wrong with cock feather in but it's just fixing the symptom. There is a reason for everything, although many theories should be hanged. ;)

George, the 'all arrows hitting a bit left' does indeed show them to be stiff. Maybe a heavier head will fix this, or going to a 600 spine and starting over. I thought it interesting that my horizontal consistency improved so much with a simple thing. More range time is needed, but I really need to get back to shooting my #1 bow. (And back to the correct side of my brain ;-) )

You'll figure it out Dana. I seem to keep putting extra vowels in some of my words lately. Got to fix that...it's rotate, not roatate.

For years, I tried all kinds of fletch configurations to get good arrow flight...even bought new bows, etc. It wasn't until I had my wife video me with a marked arrow that I finally figured it out. My actual draw was an inch or inch and a half shorter than I thought, causing me to start out with arrows that were way too stiff. Got new shaft and discovered that fletch configuration really doesn't matter if you are spined right to start with. So, my 2 cents is to determine your actual draw length first and spine accordingly, then many of those "nuances" will disappear.

No sweat, I'm a hopeless two-finger typist myself, and only a fair editor ;-)

For the bare shaft stiff - when you went to a deep hook, depending on how you are doing that you may have increased the stiff and now you are getting a false reading. Your bare shaft might be sliding on the strike plate enough to make that stiff shaft fly straight. And that really showed when your fletched shaft slaps the side plate. Secondly, your nock height was probably too low. In my experience a fletched carbon arrow that shoots best is one that is tuned a little nock high and 3/8"-1/2" longer than perfect. You didn't mention your bow make, arrow and specs? Cock feather in? Can you kill deer like that? I'm with Fred and Howard! Seriously I would have to prove it to myself with testing before I believed that cock feather in give more clearance. The tips of two feathers sliding by at a degree of angle would seem to have less impact than deeper contact of a cock feather in hitting at a 90 degree angle to the riser. Tedd

For the bare shaft stiff - when you went to a deep hook, depending on how you are doing that you may have increased the stiff and now you are getting a false reading. Your bare shaft might be sliding on the strike plate enough to make that stiff shaft fly straight. And that really showed when your fletched shaft slaps the side plate. Secondly, your nock height was probably too low. In my experience a fletched carbon arrow that shoots best is one that is tuned a little nock high and 3/8"-1/2" longer than perfect. You didn't mention your bow make, arrow and specs? Cock feather in? Can you kill deer like that? I'm with Fred and Howard! Seriously I would have to prove it to myself with testing before I believed that cock feather in give more clearance. The tips of two feathers sliding by at a degree of angle would seem to have less impact than deeper contact of a cock feather in hitting at a 90 degree angle to the riser. Tedd

I've shot cock feather in ever since reading Kelly Peterson's explanation of it on his website...and I daresay that Viper's estimate of 99.9% shooting cock feather out is a bit of an overstatement. ;-)

Wow some great thought provoking information here.Also some great funny lines. Jim Davis takes the prize for that one.

It's pretty rare I will shoot anything except a longbow off the shelf. Viper is that what you meant? You shoot long bows off a raised rest?

Some are still missing, it is not the cock feather in that is clearing--the arrow flex does take care of that. It is the hen feather clearance that is improved. It is at the bottom and the flex is side to side. Not sure if this clears it up or makes it worse. Happy Easter every one. >>>>>-----> Ken

Tedd, that might depend on fletching clearance in the lower 'corner' of the riser. Is that more or less consistent than cock-feather-in?

It would probably take high-speed cameras to check, and anyway it's probably more a matter of fine tuning than anything else, as has been said. I'm simply noting one observation with one set-up.

I'm sorry I didn't read everyone's replies, but I will share a thought with you.

First question. I like a very deep grip. Especially on heavier bows. When I release I just relax my index finger and everything just happens from there. If I try a shallow grip I find it very hard to relax my finger.

Question 2. When you bareshafted your arrow did you mark which side you put towards bow? I usually put stiffer side towards bow if there is one. Then I mark it so I know where cock feather belongs. It's frustrating when you go through all the work of baresafting and come to put the fletching on and don't remember which side was towards the bow. Been there done that. If it shoots better that way shoot it that way. Assuming everything else is proper.

Bjrogg

At a shoot a few weeks back I was shooting with a young feller (a good shooter by the way) who was having horrible trouble with his arrow flight. I told him it looked like fletchig contact to me, and to try cock fletch in at 90 degrees.

He said: "That looks stupid, and no one does that." 8^) <-- Me smiling.

I talked him into going to the practice bales when we were done shooting, stripped the fletching off a couple of his arrows, and did some bare shaft tuning on one of the foam targets there.

His bare shafting was pretty close. A little weak, not bad, but we adjusted it out anyway.

Then he shot a group of tail wagging horrible flight fletched arrows about the size of a 5 gallon bucket from 20 yards.

He said: "That didn't fix a damn thing!!!!"

I said: "Nope. not much. Now try them cock fletch in"

He proceeded to do just that, and shot a group of beautifully flying arrows at least 75% smaller than the first.

I said: "Yep. Knew it all along. Fletching contact."

The look on his face was priceless. 8^) <-- Him smiling ear to ear. 8^) <-- Me smiling again.

Yes, a real good tune will get you clearance cock fletch "out", especially off an elevated rest, but if you are shooting off a wide shelf, then it might not, and likely will not.

Feathers forgive a little contact, so even if your tune gets you good enough clearance for the arrows to shoot well - (In my opinion) cock fletch out, does not give you as good of clearance as cock fletch in.

That opinion was derived after getting perfect bare shaft tuning, then shooting vanes (off the shelf), and using lipstick on the outside edges of the vanes to see where they make contact.

Cock fletch "out (or up)" left red racing stripes across the shelf every time (contact).

Cock fletch "in" left no stripes at all (zero contact).

Rick

I'd say your spine IS too stiff!

SB, I agree; the question now is, can I 'fix' this with heavier points or do I switch shafts?

I'm currently shooting this off a 'brush' rest, but thinking about switching it to off-the-shelf. Which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Agree with Rick and others above, try cock feather in. It can make a big difference.

Deeper hook for me and I've been shooting cock feather in, for years.

If tuned well I agree that cock feather position doesn't make any difference.

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