Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Bare-shafting and length?

Messages posted to thread:
GF 14-Nov-17
OBH 15-Nov-17
kginrick 15-Nov-17
Shooter 15-Nov-17
Bender 15-Nov-17
Viper 15-Nov-17
Bowmania 15-Nov-17
JusPassin 15-Nov-17
ny yankee 15-Nov-17
Therifleman 15-Nov-17
Lost Arra 15-Nov-17
bldtrailer 15-Nov-17
Viper 15-Nov-17
Pdiddly 15-Nov-17
bldtrailer 15-Nov-17
tradmt 15-Nov-17
GF 15-Nov-17
GLF 15-Nov-17
dean 15-Nov-17
tradmt 15-Nov-17
GLF 15-Nov-17
GLF 15-Nov-17
RymanCat 15-Nov-17
2 bears 15-Nov-17
GF 15-Nov-17
nrthernrebel05 15-Nov-17
GF 15-Nov-17
fdp 15-Nov-17
GF 15-Nov-17
2 bears 15-Nov-17
From: GF
Date: 14-Nov-17




Almost seems like a silly question, but when you’re tuning and bare-shafting and trying to get your fletched arrows and bare shafts to group together, I know that a weak arrow can be made to act stifferbby shortening it, so you start off too weak and trim it ‘til it flies right in there with the fletched arrows.

But how do you decide what length THOSE should be?

From: OBH
Date: 15-Nov-17




You will know when they are both impacting the same spot. The arrow will decide it

From: kginrick
Date: 15-Nov-17




You should be cutting both the fletched and bare arrows till they come together.

From: Shooter
Date: 15-Nov-17




I don't fletch anything until I get the bare shaft flying straight and hitting my poa. I then fletch up a couple and most of the time I may only need a slight nock height adjustment.

From: Bender
Date: 15-Nov-17




Start both at SAME length. After initial shaft selection generally start at full length, however long that may be.

Here is bare shaft tuning in greater depth. Click on "download printable version."

http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html

From: Viper
Date: 15-Nov-17




GF -

I have never and will never tune a rig by arrow length. I choose the arrow length I want or need and then work the other parameters. Yes, that might involve getting new arrows.

And yes, while you could cut both the bare and fletched arrows at the same time for testing, you could make your like a lot easier by working with bare shaft nock kickout IF your target doesn't impart a direction to the arrows.

Viper out.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 15-Nov-17




Viper, did you start shooting carbon? It's easy to choose the correct aluminum shaft. Not so with carbon. With deflections difference at .100, you have to tune with pt weight or cutting the shaft. I just looked at deflection on some aluminum I used to shoot and came up with .531, .510, .510, .461, ..460, .460. Add in diff diameters and you have LOTS of choices.

In my opinion, tuning with kick out can drive you crazy. As you mention the target can be a problem, but I've had almost (at the start) as many false readings as Carter and his pills. If you start in the ball park it's not too bad.

Kick out, paper and impact all have to agree to have a well tuned arrow, but I believe www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version' is the way to start - a lot less false readings. Then go to kickout and then verify with paper.

Plus it's dangerous to tune broadheads without feather, where as you can shoot a broadhead and fletch to impact like bare and fletched with the same rules.

Bowmania

From: JusPassin Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 15-Nov-17




I'm with Viper on this one. I probably have 100 arrows laying around, and all are the same length.

For me it's a simple sight picture thing. Think about it, if the tip of your arrow is your front sight, why would you want to be raising and lowering your front sight/developing a different sight picture, for every set of arrows.

Establish your arrow length based on your draw length, then work all the other options you have to tune your set up.

From: ny yankee
Date: 15-Nov-17




I have been doing it the way Viper and JusPassin do it. Cut the arrows to the length I need and fix what needs to be fixed. Usually just point weight. Rarely have I had to change spine. But this was not the OP question.

From: Therifleman
Date: 15-Nov-17




I start w 1 bareshaft and keep moving back and making small length adjustments until i get what i want--- slight nock high and slight weak. Then i fletch and trim an arrow to same length and be sure it and bareshaft impact same place. Then if tuning for hunting i shoot my broadheads and fieldpoints on fletched arrows to be sure they hit same place. I take my time, often over a few days to rule out fatigue or form issues. I enjoy the process and find the results very rewarding.

From: Lost Arra
Date: 15-Nov-17




Thanks Viper

I now feel a lot better about my tuning method!

From: bldtrailer
Date: 15-Nov-17

bldtrailer's embedded Photo



Your bare shafts will start grouping closer to your fletched arrows as you get closer to tuned. most like the bare shaft to be slightly weak (for a right handed shooter slightly to the right side of the group) the fletching stiffens the shaft.

From: Viper
Date: 15-Nov-17




Todd -

Yes, I use carbon and AC (Aluminum/Carbon) composites) for outdoor shooting at distance. A .100 deflection difference = about 10#, and that should be tune-able with head weight and bow parameters.

Viper out.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 15-Nov-17




X2 Viper and justpassin...all my shafts are 28" and I just adjust point weight, side plate etc as I am starting with a tunable arrow.

From: bldtrailer
Date: 15-Nov-17

bldtrailer's embedded Photo



From: tradmt
Date: 15-Nov-17




I know I sure as hell cant take a bow ( by "bow" I mean cut at or before center and shot off the shelf) that shoots a 29" 500 and expect a 29" 400 to shoot without at least adding 100 grains of point weight, and that's likely not enough. Been there.

Now, an Olympic rig or compound is a different story, shoot with a release aid and you almost can't be too stiff in spine.

From: GF
Date: 15-Nov-17




So that’s where my confusion came in... I’ve always started with the fletched arrows that I had on hand, and then dialed down the length of the arrow to be tested until the spine was showing correct.... but my concern was just what some of you have mentioned: what do you do when it turns out that your fletched arrows are too short?

And where does that leave you if you have several bows that you enjoy and they all tune in with arrows of different lengths... and what about trajectories? That could make it a little uncomfortable if you like to switch them up - say if you want to use a lighter bow as the weather grows colder...

RELATED:

I went online looking for screw-in adapters for glue-on heads and came up near empty... just some aluminum at 3R - any leads? I also saw glue-in adapters - glue it into the shaft and the head onto that taper... seems like a good idea, but they seem to be on their way to being discontinued.

And the weights that screw into the back of the standard insert... do they make those for Al, or only carbons? Seems like it’d be a great thing to be able to fine- tune the aluminum 5-10 grains at a time....

From: GLF
Date: 15-Nov-17




Olympic recurves are shot with fingers ,not releases.

From: dean
Date: 15-Nov-17




On my target bows my arrows had to be exactly the same length. If I drew too long I tended to torque my release, if I drew too short I hit low. I used a clicker for draw length control. Aluminum target shaft and point selection had lots of of adjustability. With hunting carbon arrows and with so few spine sections it is a real picnic. The manufacturers have done some great PR work. "We are going to make just one shaft for all of you guys that shoot over 50 pounds and you have to figure out how to make it work". I mostly use bop net arrows. I have some that 1/4" long, I put a tiny glue bump bottom and top to touch my finger when I draw. I shoot the same arrows left handed and right handed, I needs my draw length control for my peace of mind. A friend of mine that likes longbows and back quivers has some full length carbons, with some effort and a complete change to a lower spine , he gets good enough arrow flight. He thinks they are a pain in the butt in actual use. He snags them on every branch and stick, he even ducks when birds fly by, so high his arrows are sticking up. To the original poster, the guys here go 1/4" it becomes a royal pain in the patucker when they start messing with various insert sizes. If they use hot melt to tack them in and then they need to trim, it gunks up the cutter. If they don't glue them in, they have work like hell to keep them from getting lost in the target. This year my carbon arrow friend is using wood arrows that I made him ten years ago, just needed to go to a 15 grain lighter head to make them perfect for his heavier bow.

From: tradmt
Date: 15-Nov-17




Yes, they are.

From: GLF
Date: 15-Nov-17




My aluminum 2219s are 32" and are used in all my recurves without changing the arrow. My woodsy are 31 1/2 and are used in all my longbows without ant changes to the arrow. I use arrow material that comes in a wide variety of spines. I use arrows that are as stiff as my lightest bow will shoot then tune my heavier bows to shoot the same arrows and point weights. When I tune I add layers of moleskin over my side plate till the bows perfectly tuned. Then remove the moleskin in one piece and cut a sliver from it. That sliver goes under my side plate. When you change arrow lengths you change you sight picture. I don't like that.

From: GLF
Date: 15-Nov-17




Both ways of tuning work equally well. One way you're turning the arrow into the exact spine your bow needs. The other your making your bow need the exact spine you've got.

From: RymanCat
Date: 15-Nov-17




Don't believe in it.

From: 2 bears
Date: 15-Nov-17




Some want an exact shaft length. Some want a particular point weight. If you pick the length you may have to put way more weight up front than you want or buy new spined shafts. Both ways end up well but you have to start somewhere. A good reason for using the caculator until you gain experience. GF you know the key word is "MATCHED" shafts flying the same. You keep introducing too many variables. When you get it all worked out for one bow,shaft,and point weight that you are happy with,it will come easy for the next one. >>>----> Ken

From: GF
Date: 15-Nov-17




Well, Ken, I can’t argue with you on that one, can I? Guess that’s what happens when you try to do it too much one the Cheap!

From: nrthernrebel05
Date: 15-Nov-17




I guess I'm just backwards. I pick the broadhead weight I want to shoot. I start with a full length shaft and keep trimming shaft till it bareshafts well. I'm not that big into "perfect". I shoot short distances and this works for me. I then cut and fletch my arrows and they all shoot the same to me. Again I am not that good of a shot. I'm more of "kill zone" type of accuracy.

From: GF
Date: 15-Nov-17




Odd thing, though, Reb.... once I started really paying attention to my tuning and got to messing around with bare shafts, it seemed as though my 8” groups were resolving themselves into two 4” groups.... which is enough to turn “Kill-Zone Accuracy” into “Smack Dab In The Middle Of The Kill-Zone Accuracy”.... which is a good thing.

I’m not thinking to settle on a single arrow for all 4 bows, though; I think the performance gap between the #45 or so that I get from the Bamboo Viper and the low-#50s that I get from the Howatt Hunter is a bit much. I realize I could adjust the way Gary does, but I don’t feel like I have power to spare, and I would rather use the stiffest shaft possible with each bow... I think part of the reason that the EFOC arrows penetrate so well is that they don’t squander energy on impact by flexing the arrow and slapping the side of the critter, rather than just driving on through....

From: fdp
Date: 15-Nov-17




I'm with GLF. You can still use any point weight you want to simply by having an assortment of spines available. As for matching arrows to different bows, it isn't that difficult.

I can take the same arrow that I shoot out of my Sky Archery Rogue D/R longbow that's 55lbs. and shoot it out of my Frankenbow that pulls 46lbs. with no issues what so ever.

And, as for the 2 4" groups, simple enough to move those whichever you want to. If you're right handed and the group impact right of center, increase center shot. If they impact left of center, decrease center shot.

I shoot the length arrows that I want to use (regardless of material) I don't let the manufacturer's dictate that.

From: GF
Date: 15-Nov-17




Well...

I know I can shoot 2016s well enough out of the RER LB, but they’re on the stiff side, and bareshafting proved it (to my satisfaction, anyway....). I’m thinking that if you want to shoot the same arrow from several bows at several poundages, it would make more sense for the lighter draw weight bows to be higher performance and with more center-shot...

But I didn’t plan it out that well!

From: 2 bears
Date: 15-Nov-17




It is mostly luck to get bows with different center shot and different draw weight to shoot the same arrows. Unless you don't care how much weight you pile on the front end. Think about it why would they make so many different spined shafts if one or two would work for everything. Select a bow,decide on the length of shaft or the point weight you want for the purpose. Check chart or caculator,select shaft,then sneak up on the tuning by cutting or changing points according to your first decision. Shoot MATCHED bare and fletched. Put the tuned bow and set of arrows aside and go to the next bow. It really is not complicated if you solve one problem at a time and don't mix components. I wish you the best of luck. >>>----> Ken





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