Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Selfbow efficency

Messages posted to thread:
Dkincaid 05-Nov-17
fdp 05-Nov-17
Dkincaid 05-Nov-17
badger 05-Nov-17
Dkincaid 05-Nov-17
dean 06-Nov-17
Tajue17 06-Nov-17
Dkincaid 06-Nov-17
dgb 06-Nov-17
Eric Krewson 06-Nov-17
Will tell 06-Nov-17
George Tsoukalas 06-Nov-17
George D. Stout 06-Nov-17
PEARL DRUMS 06-Nov-17
Michael Schwister 06-Nov-17
Shorthair 06-Nov-17
duvall 06-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 06-Nov-17
PEARL DRUMS 06-Nov-17
aromakr 06-Nov-17
Draven 06-Nov-17
Dkincaid 06-Nov-17
PEARL DRUMS 06-Nov-17
Draven 06-Nov-17
Michael Schwister 06-Nov-17
Michael Schwister 06-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 06-Nov-17
Draven 06-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 06-Nov-17
Draven 06-Nov-17
Draven 06-Nov-17
Draven 06-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 06-Nov-17
Draven 06-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 06-Nov-17
Draven 06-Nov-17
BowAholic 06-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 06-Nov-17
Draven 06-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 06-Nov-17
Dkincaid 06-Nov-17
badger 06-Nov-17
George Tsoukalas 06-Nov-17
bradsmith2010santafe 06-Nov-17
Steve Milbocker 06-Nov-17
dean 06-Nov-17
bluesman 06-Nov-17
bradsmith2010santafe 06-Nov-17
badger 06-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 06-Nov-17
badger 06-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 06-Nov-17
Jeff Durnell 06-Nov-17
dean 06-Nov-17
Dkincaid 06-Nov-17
dean 06-Nov-17
Altizer 06-Nov-17
Arvin 07-Nov-17
bluesman 07-Nov-17
badger 07-Nov-17
Babysaph 07-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 07-Nov-17
badger 08-Nov-17
Draven 08-Nov-17
PEARL DRUMS 08-Nov-17
Iktomi 08-Nov-17
bluesman 08-Nov-17
badger 08-Nov-17
Shorthair 08-Nov-17
bluesman 08-Nov-17
badger 08-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 08-Nov-17
Draven 08-Nov-17
PEARL DRUMS 08-Nov-17
Draven 08-Nov-17
PEARL DRUMS 08-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 08-Nov-17
Draven 08-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 08-Nov-17
Draven 08-Nov-17
PEARL DRUMS 08-Nov-17
Draven 08-Nov-17
Elderly OCR 08-Nov-17
bradsmith2010santafe 08-Nov-17
George D. Stout 08-Nov-17
bradsmith2010santafe 08-Nov-17
Altizer 08-Nov-17
bluesman 09-Nov-17
Arvin 10-Nov-17
Bassman 16-May-18
Jeff Durnell 16-May-18
Shorthair 16-May-18
George D. Stout 16-May-18
badger 16-May-18
Shorthair 16-May-18
badger 16-May-18
Pa Steve 16-May-18
Bassman 16-May-18
Jeff Durnell 16-May-18
Bassman 16-May-18
tonto59 16-May-18
Elderly OCR 16-May-18
dean 16-May-18
PEARL DRUMS 17-May-18
Bassman 17-May-18
swampwalker 17-May-18
RonG 17-May-18
Elderly OCR 17-May-18
Kwikdraw 17-May-18
George Tsoukalas 17-May-18
Michael Schwister 17-May-18
PEARL DRUMS 17-May-18
Jeff Durnell 17-May-18
Arvin 17-May-18
RonG 17-May-18
B arthur 17-May-18
H Rhodes 17-May-18
George Tsoukalas 17-May-18
From: Dkincaid
Date: 05-Nov-17




I just finished an article in primitive archer about performance selfbows. A 58 #self bow was shooting a 540 grain arrow 195fps. I know I know speed isn’t everything but man that sure seems fast for an all wood bow. Have I been selling these types of bows short are they truly capable of this kind of performance. I’m a very unskilled novice at bow making but my bows I don’t think come anywhere near that efficiency. What say the wall

From: fdp
Date: 05-Nov-17




That's faster than mine.

I'll wait and see what badger and some of the guys say. I do know that I have made straight selfbows that are just as fast as my laminated Hills and so on. But they don't shoot 195.

From: Dkincaid
Date: 05-Nov-17




This one had small static curves and backset 6 inches

From: badger
Date: 05-Nov-17




That is an awful fast speed, I do know they have that capability. I don't make extreme recurved designs but I have hit 188 at 10 grains and 28" draw. I know Mark St Louis has hit 190 with his recurves as I tested them on a shooting machine., I have had fresh bows not broken in reach speeds like that but always fell back after a dozen or so shots went through them.

If a self bow doesn't take any set it can be equal to a glass or carbon bow of similar profile. If the bow shown above had 6" backset and hadn't taken much set from its original profile I could believe that speed. With a 580 grain arrow that bow would be about 190 fps.

Once you get to that high level an independent reliable test would make it a lot more believable. Good self bows are commonly in the mid 170's now and 180 is not unusual.

From: Dkincaid
Date: 05-Nov-17




That’s exactly who it was badger that’s amazing you guys are so very talented

From: dean
Date: 06-Nov-17




I have a true pignut hickory flat limb that shoot in the 160s with 9 grain per pound arrows. high 160s for the first arrows, 30 minutes later in the low 160s, I am drawing it 26.5". It seems as fast as most Hill bows that have shot. I don't know if that is fast or average. It is not as fast as my Berry bows or my Sunset Hill, but it shoots nice and did shoot through a deer once and killed some rabbits and a pheasant really dead.

From: Tajue17
Date: 06-Nov-17




ha ha ha I think mine maybe in the 160's,,,,,, do any of you remember when the kids ran the chrono in denton hill maybe 15 or 20yrs ago I think for a buck an arrow? I remember when a bunch of selfbow guys chronoed their bows I think the fastest was 150's and this guy said he killed a boat load of deer with it.

From: Dkincaid
Date: 06-Nov-17




I think I’m around 150 but can’t say for sure on my last one. Folks don’t want me shooting their bows with my 30.5 draw so can’t really compare other self bows.

From: dgb
Date: 06-Nov-17




Mine certainly aren't that fast but one shoots around 175 with a heavy arrow - which is about what my Great Northern Ghost shoots.

From: Eric Krewson
Date: 06-Nov-17




Bow poundage + 100 is where most selfbows fall in the speed department.

I used to chrono mine but was always disappointed, they get the job done. My latest osage static recurve seems to be scorchingly fast but I haven't chronoed it.

From: Will tell
Date: 06-Nov-17




They are a little slower but most self bows are way quieter. A slow self bow with a heavy arrow won't shoot any different at 15 yards than your recurves and longbows but past 20 yards the slower arrow drops like a rock.

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 06-Nov-17




Dkincaid, what issue was that article in? Jawge

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Nov-17




Chronographs, and their manipulation are the bane of the sport for many arhcers. Folks get sucked into thinking that you 'need' this or that to be an effective hunter, even in light of years of success that prove otherwise. I imagine that some of the best bows have been set aside for a 'better' product. Usually your own numbers end up a lot lower than what is advertised. I think Eric Krewson hit on what you can expect from a well designed selfbow, radical designs aside.

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 06-Nov-17




Will you got that right. They spoil our ears. ALL other bows seem loud in comparison. Whenever I switch over to a glasser it takes me several days to adjust my ears and expectations.

From: Michael Schwister Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 06-Nov-17




In the 90s I was doing allot of experimentation with a chronograph and natural material bows. Best speed was a hickory pyramid sinew backed static recurve with 6" of reflex measured at the tips. 215 fps with 65# bow and 550 grain wood arrow, dynamic release (grip and rip) for the first few shots only. It degraded very quickly as the hickory took on moisture in the Eastern Michigan climate. Now I aim for identical performance (same draw, length, and arrow) as a mild R/D laminated glass and wood/bamboo longbow such as great northern critter gitter and Steve Abbott longbow/style. 160-166 FPS with 680 grain arrow and 60#ish draw weight, drawn to 28" Currently making them 67" nock to nock. This is ideal hunting weight/speed IMHO. dead quiet and plenty fast for any hunting shoot/range I will ever do.

From: Shorthair Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Nov-17




I would not think it is possible for a selfbow without any sinew or rawhide backing...even with flipped tips if the speed was calculated using AMO standard of 9 grains per pound with 60@28 bow. with any speed claims you got to know what the arrow weight, bow weight at 28", and how far the shooter actually drew the arrow before shooting...did he stop at 28" or do we need to factor in him drawing 29 or 30 inches? I dont get too excited about high speed claims as 99.9% of the time they are erroneous or the shooter was using IBO or just pulling it as far as they could with a very light arrow and only boasting on the speed without any of the details that really make a difference.

keep em sharp,

ron herman

From: duvall Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Nov-17




I would like to see how that bow was tested. I've done a lot of testing and those numbers blow any fiberglass bow out of the water. I personally don't believe it unless that thing was drawn exceptionally far. The vast majority of self bows drawn 28" with 9gpp arrow and fast flight string would be lucky to hit 160. Your fortunate to get a fiberglass hill bow to hit 165.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Nov-17




It's the design, not the material.

Most selfbows are simple designs which will only shoot at medium speed regardless of material.

It's when you manipulate profile that a selfbow will truly show what the material can do. No backing is needed either.

You can bet the speed Marc claims is accurate.

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 06-Nov-17




I agree, those are very false numbers.

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 06-Nov-17




Some years ago I was in the shop of a very well known Montana bowyer, he constantly got 10-15fps faster than I did. I brought my chrono with me and we set them up in tandem, again 13fps faster than mine. So I examined both units and found that his chrono the same brand and model as mine one of the screens had come loose and moved less than 1/8" closer to the second screen. So check your screen for proper placement, it can make a difference.

Bob

From: Draven
Date: 06-Nov-17




195fps for a 540 gr from a #58@28 selfbow? From where can I get the template? My vintage SK shoots in the 170fps's range a 540 gr arrow - #56@28" - with Dacron string.

From: Dkincaid
Date: 06-Nov-17




I’ll look when I get home I can’t remember the issue but it’s on the nightstand.

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 06-Nov-17




I read crazy self bow claims quite often, one fella in particular is always spewing BS numbers. Some of the stuff PA has been publishing lately is ridiculous. Like the feature article about collecting protected feathers from beaches.......dddduuuhhhh

From: Draven
Date: 06-Nov-17




On a grey day I shoot the SK above through a chrono and indicated 2 times 242fps. I disregarded those numbers and shoot other 10 times and the numbers were back to normal: between 170 and 173fps range.

From: Michael Schwister Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 06-Nov-17




I have seen pictures of Marc's white wood bows, and what he is doing with wood that IMHO is not even worth cutting for firewood is pretty amazing. And that is just the appearance. Given the photo's of the bows those numbers do not seem impossible. In my tests the BBOs post superior numbers to glass lam bows of similar profile. Lam glass only replaced wood/sinew bows because of ease and cost of mass production, not advantage in performance.

From: Michael Schwister Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 06-Nov-17




I have seen pictures of Marc's white wood bows, and what he is doing with wood that IMHO is not even worth cutting for firewood is pretty amazing. And that is just the appearance. Given the photo's of the bows those numbers do not seem impossible. In my tests the BBOs post superior numbers to glass lam bows of similar profile. Lam glass only replaced wood/sinew bows because of ease and cost of mass production, not advantage in performance.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Nov-17




Marc can get you the template. Can you execute it though? ;)

From: Draven
Date: 06-Nov-17




I am waiting for template first. Or the pic for what is worth. Just don't tell me the selfbow is an asian style one.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Nov-17




Well it has to be to some degree obviously even if Asian style bows were not selfbows.

From: Draven
Date: 06-Nov-17

Draven's embedded Photo



I can see speed increased to 10-15fps more than the average for extra 10 lbs of bow power. Data from Primitive technology :

From: Draven
Date: 06-Nov-17

Draven's embedded Photo



Asymmetrical : 135 fps Straight stave : 150 fps Deflex tips: 140 fps Reflex tips: 155 fps Non-contact reflex: 155 fps Contact recurve: 165 fps Deflex recurve: 165 fps Triple recurve: 165 fps Setback limbs: 152 fps Reflex recurve composite Asian bow: 180 fps

From: Draven
Date: 06-Nov-17




PS The speeds were calculated for 500gr arrow and #50 bows

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Nov-17




Those are 'approximate" they are not tested bows.

From: Draven
Date: 06-Nov-17




Show the bow and the chrono shooting 10 arrows through it and get it done with it. PS Are you talking about Marc St. Louis bowyer's bows? The heat tempered ones?

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Nov-17




Yes, and those who make the same style bows.

From: Draven
Date: 06-Nov-17




From what I know he is the single one who made several at 180fps for 10gr arrow, and just vey few are above 190fps. The funny part is you disregard the data I provided saying these "where not tested" but his design falls exactly in those limits.

From: BowAholic
Date: 06-Nov-17

BowAholic's embedded Photo



When Marc made "White Lightening" for me it shot over 190fps with a hunting weight arrow and was shot and measured by several different people/chronographs...it is definitely an extreme design that was made for speed.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Nov-17




No, many people have made those styles. They just don't put them out there because they aren't trying to selll them.

The data above is not limits. It's an approximate calculation. Some will be slower and some faster.

From: Draven
Date: 06-Nov-17




Data shows averages. Now you don't have to convince me. Whoever is replicating an asian style of bow will get better speed than the rest. But this is not the usual efficiency of a selfbow, is the exception from the rule.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Nov-17




Nobody said it was "usual efficiency". They said it was potential.

Same goes for any other material bow. People don't say a Hill style longbow shows the efficiency of wood and glass together.

Somewhere along the line "selfbow" apparently started to mean straight stick and nothing else.

From: Dkincaid
Date: 06-Nov-17

Dkincaid's embedded Photo



From: badger
Date: 06-Nov-17




One huge factor in self bow performance is how well the bowyer protects the integrity of the wood during the tillering process. A bow can easily loose an additional 10% of it power to hysteresis in a bow with damaged wood fibers. Extreme designs on self bows don't reap any benefits if they surpass the woods ability to maintain its integrity. This is why wood bows are made from wood and Asiatic bows are made from horn. They have different properties that require different designs.

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 06-Nov-17




Thanks, DKincaid. George

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 06-Nov-17




well ok here is my laymen take,, that arrow is less than 10gpp and there are wood bows that will shoot 180 plus with 10 gpp,, so 185 or so with the lighter arrow would be possile,, now to the 195,,hmmm well if the bow was really special and the shooter had a good release I can see that,, ,, if it was Marc that got that results, I dont doubt it,,

From: Steve Milbocker
Date: 06-Nov-17




Selfbows will "efficiently" make meat so I could care less how fast they are:) I enjoy shooting them for what they are, primitive bows. I'm not knocking the guys who enjoy getting all they can out of these bows. I've owned bows built by Badger, Marc and Pearl Drums and they are truly amazing.

From: dean
Date: 06-Nov-17




I was told by one who knows more than me about hickory species, that pignut is tougher than shag bark, but both need to be super dry to work right. Moisture got to mine so I sanded the finish off. Shellac may look nice on a white wood bow, but it is worthless as a weather seal. I put it in a furnace duct for a winter. I was told to blow torch the belly while taking some of the set out of it. Then I reworked it and shortened it to 64", I am not sure what I did right but it shot a lot better. I am going to lower its draw weight from the belly side. I think this time I will do all of the retiller before I heat up the belly, then light sand that before spraying it. I was asked to build a couple, but this thing is just a revolving experiment for me. I got the flat limb idea after shooting a Stotler longbow. It is like a Stotler pignut selfbow.

From: bluesman
Date: 06-Nov-17




I don't think selfbows are generally built for the purpose of extreme speed..usually for the self satisfaction of making a bow you can shoot accurately at archery events or hunt and shoot accurately and have enough kinetic energy to take game.. I see the "challenge" behind making them as efficient as possible but if your into speed laminated bows will win hands down.

And My mentors always recommend heavy arrows for selfbows so they take some of the stress off the bow....

good luck with your speed quest..wear eye protection if your pushin the limits of design....

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 06-Nov-17




lots of guys are into flight shooting , speed is part of that,,just another aspect of archery that holds intrest to some,, some liike to hunt ,, some target and some flight, all takes a different approach and different bow for each application,, its not a one bow fits all sport,, the guys shooting wood bows dont really care that much what fiberglass will do,, its a non issue,, making wood bows is pretty diverse and then the guys that make the horn composite bows are a whole nother story,,

From: badger
Date: 06-Nov-17




I used to chase speed quite a bit but for the last several years I have just settled into a slightly reflexed longbow design around 66" plus or minus a little. They perform well and I haven't broken one in years. The bows I have used to set flight records with were actually very conservative designs. I think proper building techniques take care of most of the performance issues.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Nov-17




I would think a selfbow can withstand lighter weight arrows much better than a lam bow.

There's nothing to delaminate.

In a way you can leverage that to your advantage if you can shoot a heavier bow.

From: badger
Date: 06-Nov-17




""I would think a selfbow can withstand lighter weight arrows much better than a lam bow. There's nothing to delaminate. In a way you can leverage that to your advantage if you can shoot a heavier bow.""

We have guys shooting 150 grain arrows from 100# bows on occassion. The bows seldom break unless the string breaks.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 06-Nov-17




Yep. I would think the previous statement was made by guys trying to push the "likes a heavy arrow" agenda and then using that a reason for slower cast.

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 06-Nov-17




There are many things I concern myself with when it comes to selfbow 'performance' but fps isn't really one of them. I was talked into shooting a bow through a chrono once in my life, at that Denton Hill setup Tague mentioned many years ago, and it wasn't a selfbow, it was hickory backed black cherry with mild overall reflex I happened to be carrying at the time. It did good, but I haven't been inspired to do it again.

Of course I want my bows to be efficient... that is, efficient within the bounds of other aspects that I find more valuable for hunting weapons I would trust with my life. I won't sacrifice durability, reliability, quietness, stability, or heck, even good looks... for a little more speed. That's just me. I'm a classic daily driver kind of guy, but I get it... some guys are into drag cars, and building new motors after each run, and that's cool too.

From: dean
Date: 06-Nov-17




I do know that a cedar arrow that is 500 grains with a Hunter's Head broadhead going 155 to 160 fps will shoot through the lungs and one rib on a 150 pound Iowa whitetail, plus a couple of yards. When such a bow gets water logged, then speed matters to a point. Past that point, other things like feel and accuracy and stability is what keeps it fun. Just like the pictures I was showed of a Canadian bull moose by the Canadian that did the shooting. He used a sinew backed osage flat limb, 56", perhaps 55 pounds at 26" was his guess, slim obsidian heads. The first arrow malfunctioned on contact, the second arrow came out the opposite side. No matter the speed, it was enough, but a really cool package. The 56" bow was for shooting from a canoe. I appreciate it, when an adventure comes together like that.

From: Dkincaid
Date: 06-Nov-17




Really good insights I enjoy The dialogue it’s getting me motivated to work some wood

From: dean
Date: 06-Nov-17




From: Altizer
Date: 06-Nov-17

Altizer's embedded Photo



My selfbow is around 55 to 58 lbs. and 66". I draw around 29" on that bow. It is the fastest selfbow I've shot other have a Cherokee bow. I shoot a 23/64th shaft so I have a heavy shaft the bow is faster than my owl and close but not as faster as my Robertsons. No where close to my Tall Tine recurve. All that being said I have never chrono'd any of the bows. I really don't care as long as I have great arrow flight and the bow hits where I'm looking. Straight flying arrows will out penetrate faster wobbly arrows. What I have noticed is a Hugh difference when shooting deer. I always feel like there's not enough speed and energy when I shoot a deer with a selfbow. It may be in part on how quiet they are and the lack of hand shock. There is a difference. I think it may be mental, just the perception. But I have shot through every deer and turkey that I've ever shot. Including those with stone tips. There has been more than enough energy. I would guess the bow shoots 165 to 175. I wish I could build a long selfbow that would shoot my big shafts 195. My hats off to you for your work.

From: Arvin
Date: 07-Nov-17




Now you all know a AW 50 # bow shoots 500 gr. arrow 300 feet per second. Arvin

From: bluesman
Date: 07-Nov-17




for the fella above regarding heavier arrows..the fact , yes fact is..heavier arrows quiet your bow and are less stress on the limbs..look it up... there is a reason you don't dry fire bows..laminated or selfbows...the arrow takes some of the energy away from the limbs...whether it be a selbow or laminated bow..dampens the vibration and quiets the bow...I don't understand your point ELDRY OCR but if you feel that light arrows work for you better for your set up that is fine..science is science..I don't want to highjack this thread ..sorry to original poster... good luck with your quest for speed..

From: badger
Date: 07-Nov-17




Bluesman, I agree that using arrow weight to chase speed is kind of pointless. With a 120 grain arrow I have clocked 300 fps from a self bow but a 120 grain arrow is useless for anything but flight shooting.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 07-Nov-17




Ummmm I don't know about that.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 07-Nov-17




Bluesman, My point is that a selfbow handles near dry fire better. In fact I've never seen a dryfired selfbow break.

A bow that needs overly heavy arrows to quiet it is likely lacking in design execution.

By lighter arrows per bow poundage you can retain the benefits of a relatively heavy arrow with the flatter trajectory bonus.

From: badger
Date: 08-Nov-17




If you look at the above picture of the white lightening bow it is very easy to believe that it hit 190 fps at 10 grains per pound. A lot of features in that bow demonstrate very advanced knowledge of design and wood. And it was skillfully executed.

From: Draven
Date: 08-Nov-17




I look at that thing and I am wondering is the Bears with static limbs had a similar speed. The image says squat unless you read the bow was heat treated.

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 08-Nov-17




The image says squat? Better get some stronger readers, or experience. Either would work.

From: Iktomi
Date: 08-Nov-17




Altizer, If your faster arrows are wobbly in flight there is something wrong. You can absolutely tune a fast bow/arrow setup for perfect arrow flight.

That said,, I don't get too hung up on chrono numbers when making a wooden bow. If I do *my* part in crafting they will be good performers. The best I have done is mid 180's with a selfbow at 10 gpp but that was an exception for sure. I'm more concerned with a stable friendly shooting bow that has a grip fashioned for me and the way I soot. If I have that, and the bow isn't a dog, I'm good.

From: bluesman
Date: 08-Nov-17




I guess I should avoid the Speed threads as my personal taste in bows is a forgiving smooth shooting bow that I hunt with that shoot 600 grain arrow quiet and efficiently for what I like doing..I am not into flight shooting or speed demon bows I guess . If a bow is fast and shoots a 600 grain arrow well , forgiving on spine( that is it shoots 50 -65 # spined arrows well) so I don't have to keep buying more shafts...thats the bow for me... if it is not fast but gets the job done quietly ..thats a bow for me too...

Its human nature to want faster , stronger etc..but I don't think that is generally the theme in traditional archery or we would all be shooting compound bows that launch an arrow at 300 + fps...

A good well designed traditional bow is fast enough..trying to make them 2000 fps I personally think is not why we use them.

From: badger
Date: 08-Nov-17




Bluesman, the title of the thread was about self bow efficiency. So with a title like that and the specific question he asked about a specific bow I would expect that the conversation would lean toward what they are capable of. It doesn't mean that's what all these guys are expecting from every bow.

From: Shorthair Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Nov-17




it is not just 9gpp for AMO but also it is drawn a max of 60# of weight to 30 inches draw length....

just meeting the 9gpp is not enough...as if a 70# bow or drawn 32 inches it will be different.

I want to see on video the bow being shot 5 times through chrono with AMO standards of no more than 30 inches and no more than 60# at draw length with 9gpp arrow setup...and the overall speeds avg that amount claimed with NO backing on bow....as the OP said selfbow...so no bamboo, no hide, no sinew, no horn...nothing but a single piece of wood.

keep em sharp,

ron herman

From: bluesman
Date: 08-Nov-17




10-4 badger , was attracted by the title but realize it was extreme speeds that was the topic.. just like efficiency for my purposes..

From: badger
Date: 08-Nov-17




Self bow guys have settled into a 10 grains per pound and 28" draw as our standard. We swim in a different ocean.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 08-Nov-17




If we took the 9GPP and 30" inch draw option it would be even uglier for the glass guys, Shorthair. ;)

At 9gpp and 30 inch draw a selfbow artist would want to hit 200 plus.

From: Draven
Date: 08-Nov-17




PEARL DRUMS, read again what I said. The image says squat if is a 175fps or 200fps - it says it is a possible high speed design. Nothing about speed for specific arrows. Get your facts straight. Badger was praising the White Lightening. If you don't know the wood, the way it was treated you will never know

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 08-Nov-17




How many bows have you built? About as many deer as you have killed with a bow Id bet. ZERO.

Seems you and I cant be friends after all.

From: Draven
Date: 08-Nov-17

Draven's embedded Photo



Tell me the speed of this bow, and after you ask me about what I did.

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 08-Nov-17




That's a '55 Bear static. Probably has sugar maple lams with old school woven glass. 152 fps with a 500 grain arrow.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 08-Nov-17




About 190 with 9gpp and 30 inch draw. FF string.

From: Draven
Date: 08-Nov-17




A bit more if you shoot a #60 bow - a friend of mine has one and shoots in the 160fps. But it's interesting, you didn't said the speed just looking to the bow geometry. You started to think material. Thank you, you just proved my point.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 08-Nov-17




Not really. We look at tip weight too.

From: Draven
Date: 08-Nov-17




Geometry of something includes tips. OK gents, you are right.

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 08-Nov-17




Another lucky guess, similar to my assessment of Marcs bow above.

From: Draven
Date: 08-Nov-17




Your first post here was : "I agree, those are very false numbers." Until I pushed to find what type of bow and who made it, you were way off. Dialog is over from now on. Regards

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 08-Nov-17




Geometry: Yes and no on your above point. The curve is what determines the basics and the refinement or addition of mass to the shape is what helps or hinders the potential.

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 08-Nov-17




I think alot of knowlege that was lost in time,,,, is being re discoverd,, and the wood bow can shoot really well,, especially in hunting situations where it can be as effective as any bow,, even the compound,, for taking game ,, and bow makers are still getting better and better,, at making self bows,, composite wood bows and sinew bows that are very effeceint and deadly,,,,:) horn wood bows too,,

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Nov-17

George D. Stout's embedded Photo



Any bow that is of decent weight, regardless of what it's made of, will kill game with the proper arrow and good arrow flight. The bows made in 1957 will perform as well as most made in 2017 of the same design, given all else being equal ... including string material.

Here's what an old, pretty severe string-follow, lemonwood longbow can do. This buck would have been near 180 pounds live weight. The bow, at 52# at my draw, likely had an initial velocity of maybe 150 fps with the wind behind it. A cedar arrow with a Howard Hill head, buried up to the feathers and totally skewered this buck. The shot was from the ground and at about 9 yards more or less. The bow was whisper quiet and very accurate. The year was 1992.

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 08-Nov-17




thanks George thats a nice way to test effeceicy, and good eatin,, not sure how you test that,,,, :)

From: Altizer
Date: 08-Nov-17




Iktomi, You are right about something being wrong if you have a wobbly arrow. I don't have that problem unless I shoot the wrong spine and it will still stabilize but hit somewhere different than I am looking. My point is that I've seen bad flight affect and speed penetration. Especially with light arrows. Compounds are really bad for it. Tuning the bow, tuning the arrow is the key. I worry about accuracy and consistency way more than speed. That being said my bow is fast. It still amazes me how fast a piece of wood can be.

George, That photo and story is awesome. The selfbows are so much fun. A whole lot of satisfaction in making a bow that performs well and take a deer with it. I feel sorry for those that never shoot or hunt with one.

From: bluesman
Date: 09-Nov-17




Nice stuff George..totally agree ....that deer didn't know the bow was 150 fps....and as you said quiet...and accurate equals dead deer..

From: Arvin
Date: 10-Nov-17




Brad you test that in the frying pan! Arvin

From: Bassman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 16-May-18




THE 100 AND BOW WEIGHT IS WHAT I GO BY.MOST OF MY BOWS ARE BUILT 45 TO 50 LBS.NOT ALL BUT MOST WILL NOT MAKE THE NUMBERS.MY 45LBS SHOOT ANY WERE FROM FROM 138 TO 143 FPS,AND MY 50LB BOWS SHOOT 144 TO 148,WITH A FEW THAT HIT MARK 150 AT 50 POUNDS,BUT AT 9 GRS PER P0UND ARROW WEIGHT. I LIMIT MY SHOTS ON DEER TO 15YDS MAX, AND USE A VERY SHARP BROADHEAD.VERY FEW OF MY SHOTS HAVE CLEARED THE DEER,BUT MOST HAVE PENETRATED TO THE FEATHERS AND MY KILL RATE IS VERY GOOD.I JUST CAN NOT MAKE REALLY FAST SELFBOWS,AND MY DRAW IS ONLY 26 INCHES. I KNOW MY LIMITATIONS, AND LIVE BY THEM.SOMETIMES TO SQUEEZE A FEW FPS I PUT TIP OVERLAYS OF BUFFALO HORN AND ADD A 10 STRAND FF STRING.DO NOT LET LESS THAN AVERAGE BOW SPEED STOP YOU FROM HUNTING WITH YOUR OWN SELFBOWS, WHICH IS A REAL THRILL.JUST USE COMMON SENSE.

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 16-May-18




Bassman, please stop yelling at us. Hit your caps lock button. I refuse to even read it when someone does that. It hurts my eyes.

From: Shorthair Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 16-May-18




Clay Hayes just flipped the tips on an osage bow he has shot for years...The bow on his youtube channel he is giving away to a supporter. It is 50@28 with flipped tips at 64" long and it shot 173 fps on chrono with 550 gr arrow. That is 11 grains per inch.

So entirely possible with well built bow.

keep em sharp,

ron herman

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 16-May-18




Different woods will have different results, as does design, and how well it's put together/tillered. I don't own a chronograph, but from shooting many selfbows, a well made osage will shoot with about any. And, if I'm not mistaken, Russ Hoogerhyde won his first Nationals while using a lemonwood longbow back in the 1930's.

I've only ever shot one Yew and that thing was very snappy. One thing about not having a chrono, is you aren't ever disappointed by numbers, which can really screw up a good marriage between an archer and his already great bow.

From: badger
Date: 16-May-18




One common misconception is that self bows have to be built on the edge to be fast. Just the opposite is proving to be true, building a self bow with less stress makes for a safer bow with less set and less hysteresis which is the biggest robber of power from self bows. Basic conservative designs that have taken little or no set are now hitting in the 180's shooting @10 grains per pound and drawing 28" with regularity. This puts them on a par with a lot of well made modern longbows.

From: Shorthair Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 16-May-18




agree....a hunter should not feel at a disadvantage for his weapon of choice if properly designed and completed based on woods best qualities. Cant make a hickory flatbow like a yew ELB...woods are too different. But you can have a very nice shooting selfbow of osage, yew, hickory, vine maple, etc if done to the woods strengths. Look at some of the results in the TBB Volumes...speaks volumes on design and experience of bowyer.

keep em sharp,

ron herman

From: badger
Date: 16-May-18




Not trying to sneak a brag in here but a lot of times the best experience we have to talk about is our own. I currently hold the world record in the 50# self bow class and the 50# backed bow class. The self bow I used for the record was my favorite hunting and 3-D bow I had used for 3 or 4 years before even entering it in the flight competition. I continued to use the same bow for about 8 more years and performance continued to increase as the bow aged. The bow never took any set and never lost any weight, it actually gained a pound or two each year I had to remove. The bow was not a skinny low mass design at all, I think it was about 1 3/8 wide at the fades semi pyramid slight R/D. The backed bow was fresher but other wise same design. The distance between wood bows and modern longows was not all that much different. They shot arrows 50 grains heavier but they also got to use fast flight skinny strings while we are suing heavy bulky linen string about 4 times the weight so it kind of equals it out.

From: Pa Steve
Date: 16-May-18




Very interesting Badger. Thanks for your experienced insight.

From: Bassman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 16-May-18




jeff durnell i will write everything in small letters not to hurt your eyes.i am not yelling at anyone,just stating my experiences with my selfbows.if large letters hurt your eyes you will never make a bowyer,and you need keen eyes to even make a decent selfbow.nuff said.

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 16-May-18




Grow up, bud.

From: Bassman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 16-May-18




i am not the wise guy here. you made first move man.you need to grow up.

From: tonto59
Date: 16-May-18




Good thread Dkincaid. I enjoy all the self bow threads. Thank you gentleman for sharing your experience with the self bow. I always find these threads very interesting.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 16-May-18




Bassman, that just a good etiquette request.

From: dean
Date: 16-May-18




WHY DO YOU GUYS ALWAYS START FIGHTING OVER SILLY THINGS. My self bow is better than yours. Now don't be getting da green mit envy blues over it. I am making a couple of board bows for the little neighbor kids, I bet they will shoot an arrow from here to way over there.

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 17-May-18




At least he said please WHEN he asKEd. And, I AGREE, JEFF DURNELL WILL NEVER MAKE A GOOD bowyer OR BOW if HE CANT READ in all CAPS. You SUck Jeff DURNELLSKY.

From: Bassman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 17-May-18




Guys i am sorry,but sometimes unnecessary,condescending remarks call for a reponse.

From: swampwalker
Date: 17-May-18




Really guys?

From: RonG
Date: 17-May-18




Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha! great one Pearl Drums.

This is funny guys, I guess I fall into the same catagory as Jeff, I can't stand to read all large print, you can't tell when a sentence starts or ends, very monotonous especially with no spaces between anything.

This is how I take it, Bassman nothing against you at all.

It's just very difficult to read.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 17-May-18




That was neither condescending nor unnecessary. We've all been scarred by reading a Ryman Cat post in all caps.

Nobody want to have that happen more than once.

From: Kwikdraw
Date: 17-May-18




Where's George when we NEED HIM!?

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 17-May-18




Which George, Kwikdraw? George or Jawge?

From: Michael Schwister Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 17-May-18




I find it a bit unusual that Bassman does not know Jeff Durnell. Both PBS, both PA. Jeff has taught hundreds of folks how to build bows over more than a decade. I know Jeff, we swap wood, and I live 500 miles away. I can see how some folks would want to argue with Dean Torges or Dan Quillian (when they were alive), but Jeff? Like getting in an argument with Mister Rogers.

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 17-May-18




Its all in fun. No reason to get wound up tight. Its just an internet forum, after all.

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 17-May-18




Michael, you and Pearly Boi got me laughing my butt off over here. Mister Rogers? Wow. I don't know about that one.

I wish I had some time to practice my bow making. Every day it's something. My wife just called a few minutes ago and said the basement is flooded and she's gotta leave because the granddaughter is on her way to children's hospital, again. Great.

Bassman, you can type however ya want. There's nothing I'd rather talk about than bow making, I'm just saying, if a post is in all caps, I tend to skip over it. Nothing personal or condescending about it. I gotta run. Have a super wonderful day.

From: Arvin
Date: 17-May-18




Well I'll say! I get in the high 170s with 500 gr. from 50# bows. Some reflex. I also get give or take 190-200 yds out of the same set up. Cast is more Important to me and more proof . Not saying chronos don't have there place So do the math and tell me my chrono is full of it. And yes Jeff , pearl , badger, Mark, and a host of others in this post know how to build a efficient bow! Let's make more bows! Arvin

From: RonG
Date: 17-May-18




I just re-read my post, it doesn't sound like I meant it to be. It sounded a little sarcastic, was not meant to be, sorry Bassman.

Now this is what I mean, telling Jeff Durnell that he can't make a descent bow it like telling Pearl Drums he can't tiller ............Ha!Ha!

Jeff, I just read your post above, is the granddaughter alright.

An indoor swimming pool, people pay big bucks for soemthing like that........sounds like you need a full time bilge pump.

From: B arthur
Date: 17-May-18




Did Mr. Rodgers make bows too?

From: H Rhodes
Date: 17-May-18




When I get one finished and all shot in, I shoot one of my hunting weight arrows across the hay field for distance. If it will fling an arrow 200 paces, I count it as a bow to kill a deer. I never shot through a chronograph-so I am not sure about FPS. I agree with Arvin about the cast. If Marc St. Louis made that claim, I wouldn’t doubt it. I have admired his creations for years. I have a couple of badgers bows and they both shoot right with my fiberglass bows, and have for some years now. Design and craftsmanship go a long way in the selfbow world.

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 17-May-18




Badger, I agree with you. Paul Comstock (Bent Stick) talked about how overbuilt bows performed really well compared to bows on the edge.

As far as cast being different from fps, can't see it. Makes no sense. All the energy an arrow will ever have is when it leaves the bow. Of course, there's wind resistance, air friction, etc. Nevertheless either one is a good way to measure bows.

Having said that I don't use chronographs. Don't care to. :)

Jawge





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