Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


How much lower

Messages posted to thread:
Nhbuck 03-Oct-17
Oly 03-Oct-17
Nhbuck 03-Oct-17
JusPassin 03-Oct-17
bradsmith2010santafe 03-Oct-17
Jim 03-Oct-17
Oly 03-Oct-17
mgerard 03-Oct-17
LBshooter 03-Oct-17
Nhbuck 03-Oct-17
Shifty 03-Oct-17
George Vernon 03-Oct-17
Oly 03-Oct-17
Oly 03-Oct-17
Nhbuck 03-Oct-17
RymanCat 03-Oct-17
Sinner 03-Oct-17
GF 03-Oct-17
George D. Stout 03-Oct-17
crowfoot 03-Oct-17
Bowlim 03-Oct-17
RymanCat 03-Oct-17
Blackstick 03-Oct-17
crowfoot 03-Oct-17
Bowguy 03-Oct-17
Oly 03-Oct-17
chenryiv 03-Oct-17
GF 03-Oct-17
Missouribreaks 03-Oct-17
Skeets 03-Oct-17
GF 03-Oct-17
StikBow 03-Oct-17
Oly 04-Oct-17
sheepdogreno 04-Oct-17
lv2bohunt 04-Oct-17
Missouribreaks 04-Oct-17
Silverstreak Archer 04-Oct-17
ShadeHaven 04-Oct-17
Missouribreaks 04-Oct-17
Onehair 04-Oct-17
Missouribreaks 04-Oct-17
Landshark Launcher 04-Oct-17
Lowcountry 04-Oct-17
GF 04-Oct-17
Michael Schwister 04-Oct-17
Draven 10-Oct-17
4t5 12-Oct-17
Fletch 13-Oct-17
Bob Rowlands 13-Oct-17
From: Nhbuck
Date: 03-Oct-17




How much lower do I have to hold out of a treestand about 15 to 18 feet? Shooting 250 up front at 54 pounds if I start bending a little more I feel like I'm going to miss

From: Oly
Date: 03-Oct-17




Nhbuck, not sure I understand your question. Why do you feel you would have to aim lower when hunting out of a tree stand? In my experience, you shouldn't have to alter your aiming point at all when shooting normal hunting distances (10 yds or greater). If you haven't done so already, my suggestion is that you practice shooting from an elevated position to simulate hunting out of a tree stand.

From: Nhbuck
Date: 03-Oct-17




Shot over two deer ready

From: JusPassin Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 03-Oct-17




So did the deer move, or did you just miss?

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 03-Oct-17




well ok lets do the math,, if you shot over say 6 inches,, then you would need to aim a bit more than a foot lower,,, or pick a spot a few inches under the deer,, up to you how you want to think about it,, the combination of being excited and shooting down is going a bit high,, just aim lower,,,,

maybe that sounds too simple,, but when I missed sevaral deer bout 20 years ago, that was the advice Byron Ferguson gave me,, and it served me well,,

From: Jim Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 03-Oct-17




Better listen to Oly.

From: Oly
Date: 03-Oct-17




How far were the shot(s)? How'd you feel about the shots, were you focused on the spot you wanted to hit and maintained good form throughout the shot? Believe me, I have had more than my share of misses... almost always the miss was the result of poor form or lack of focus on my part (not focusing on the spot, sneaking a peak, dropping my arm, etc.). These mistakes can be compounded if you are not accustomed to shooting from an elevated position. It's more of how your mind is perceiving the shot rather than the physics of the shot... gravity could care less if you are shooting from ground level or elevated... the arrow drop is the same for a given distance.

From: mgerard Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 03-Oct-17




Practice from a treestand and find out.

From: LBshooter
Date: 03-Oct-17




Lower your stand height. If you plan on staying high I'd aim at the bottom line of the deer and even if they duck you should be good,

From: Nhbuck
Date: 03-Oct-17




I just missed them they never moved I guess I will try to look lower if I get another chance

From: Shifty
Date: 03-Oct-17




Do you bend at the waist when you shoot from your tree stand,you need to.

From: George Vernon Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 03-Oct-17




When shooting from an elevated stand some folks tend to look at the whole deer. Our eyes/brains are hard wired to look at transitions--light vs. dark for example. I think the top of the back of a deer is such a transition. It takes real effort for me to ignore the top of the back and pick a spot lower on the animal.

My guess is if you practice on a leaf you'll probably hit it. Shooting at a live animal and picking a spot is much tougher;

From: Oly
Date: 03-Oct-17




How far were the shot(s)? How'd you feel about the shots, were you focused on the spot you wanted to hit and maintained good form throughout the shot? Believe me, I have had more than my share of misses... almost always the miss was the result of poor form or lack of focus on my part (not focusing on the spot, sneaking a peak, dropping my arm, etc.). These mistakes can be compounded if you are not accustomed to shooting from an elevated position. It's more of how your mind is perceiving the shot rather than the physics of the shot... gravity could care less if you are shooting from ground level or elevated... the arrow drop is the same for a given distance.

From: Oly
Date: 03-Oct-17




oops, sorry for double post.

From: Nhbuck
Date: 03-Oct-17




I'm pretty positive I bent if anything I may have peaked at arrow everything else felt good

From: RymanCat
Date: 03-Oct-17




This is something your going to need to learn on your own there is no formula.

Plus when you think you do things in the heat of the moment its not always true.

Most of these things are all trial and error that guys just seem to want to learn before they experience for themselves.

I don't care how far or how close your shots ever are it you that has to figure things out and that's done by knowing your bows and then testing things out whether its on targets or real live animals!

No one can tell you what to do other than some basics where to start from.

From: Sinner
Date: 03-Oct-17




Gravity is the issue. I may look like 20 yds looking down, but the horizontal distance is only 12 yds (for instance), so you overshoot. It's a good idea to spot several areas around your stand for horizontal distance, so you know where to hold when the deer is in that area.

From: GF
Date: 03-Oct-17




JMO, first learn to hit from an elevated position; then start thinking three dimensionally.I know we all like to take nice, close shots; but the closer they are, the steeper the angle.

If you aim 1/3 up the body on a 45 degree shot, you’ll be lucky if you get more than one lung. But you don’t want to hold too high, or you’ll shoot just over the spine and get only the top of the off lung - which I have done.

Just thinking.... if you have to think about it, maybe you should think better of it? If you’re 15 feet up, a 10 yard shot is a lot easier to execute properly than 5.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 03-Oct-17




You align your upper body with the plane of the shot. In other words, you lean forward with the angle then shoot as normal.

From: crowfoot
Date: 03-Oct-17




With the first deer nor this one have you answered how far. For me 5yd is alot harderthan 15yds.

Crow

From: Bowlim
Date: 03-Oct-17




George is right, though there is a theory that goes that say you are shooting down at a 45 degree angle and the tip of your arrow is 14.4 yards from the bullseye. You are horizontally 10 yards from the animal and should shoot with your 10 yd pin so to speak. Shoot as though it is only 10 yds. But it looks like 14.4, so you may well sight it like that.

The theory holds you don't maintain proper T-form, therefore you will underdraw, come up short, right on the money. If you gap, underdrawing will also make you shoot a longer arrow in front of the bow, which also makes you shoot short. Of course whether this is effortless accuracy, and not so good, you would have to test out for yourself.

From: RymanCat
Date: 03-Oct-17




All theoroys generally go out the window when you shoot at live animals. Another thing you will learn grasshoper.LOL

Not many animals will stand the same way to narrow it down to doing it one way.

What 10 yard pin?LOL

You have to learn to judge it by the eyeball pin to ground control whats between your ears then steady at shot and bare down and stay on the bow. Don't lift up. This isn't hard it just takes time all the while picked spot is your tunnel vision plus you have to know where to look so knowing anatomy is key also.

From: Blackstick Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 03-Oct-17




It's not really as easy as knowing how far up a tree you are. You also need to know how far away from the tree the deer is. If you are a math whiz then it becomes just simple trigonometry where you figure the hypotenuse of the created right angle. This will be a somewhat longer distance that the arrow remains in the air than the distance from the tree. Gravity works on an arrow over distance either up or down hill. So what you need to do is aim however much lower for this longer distance. Pythagorean Theorem comes to mind.

I'm not a math genius either, so I basically have relied on practice.

From: crowfoot
Date: 03-Oct-17




I'm a center of the lung guy myself..tree,ground, deer, coyote. Just me.I let my brain figure everything else out.. Just takes time. I have never shot rifle at much grade so that would be a different story.

From: Bowguy Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 03-Oct-17




Didn't read all the posts but you gotta practice shots from all angles and in every hunt situation. Now for starters if you don't bend at the waist and just lower a bow arm and draw to anchor your dl will change. Don't believe me, do it with a string and see if you can't pull more through your fingers. With trad equipment dl is a big part of consistency in dw. Practice

From: Oly
Date: 03-Oct-17




The actual distance is irrelevant to me, as I don't think in terms of yardage... for me it's all hand/eye coordination, I focus on the spot & concentrate on a good follow through, the brain takes care of the rest... but I practice almost exclusively from an elevated position at varying distances. I believe that is crucial if you are hunting from a tree stand .

From: chenryiv
Date: 03-Oct-17




Just sent you a pm

From: GF
Date: 03-Oct-17

GF's embedded Photo



This thread reminds me of a First Shot that we had not too long ago… the call was for an elevated position and the was all I could come up with.

If you wanna take those shots, you gotta practice ‘em.

Probably NOT an original thought.

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 03-Oct-17




The hypotenuse and force of gravity at 9.8 meters per second is not a theory.

From: Skeets
Date: 03-Oct-17




The right triangle is correct, however the force of gravity only affects the arrow over the base distance. The distance from the base of the tree to target measured on the ground. The problem in Nhbuck's case is what was described in an article I read one time as the "ice moment". I have no clue why the author called it that. Only that it was the moment when while shooting at a deer your mind goes blank. Nhbuck has described it almost to a "T". He doesn't know where he aimed, he doesn't know IF he peaked, or if he bends at he waist. Some archers can't remember where or if they anchored.

From: GF
Date: 03-Oct-17




“Some archers can't remember where or if they anchored.”

I can on every shot I ever took which resulted in a dead deer. The misses, not so much.

That’s one of the best things about sneaking a peek down the shaft of the arrow before/as you settle into final anchor - no sense in looking down the shaft to see where it’s pointed if you’re not paying any attention to where it’s going to end up.

If all you’re looking at is “the spot”, it’s easy to lose track of how your arrow is lined up.

From: StikBow
Date: 03-Oct-17




Bend at the waist—not sure anyone can tell you”aim X inches under at Y yards” as that infers they know how you shoot on the ground. Some good geometry and physics lessons, but no one knows how you actually shoot or how you view a target.

From: Oly
Date: 04-Oct-17




The OP indicated his tree stand is only 15 - 18 feet above ground. At this elevation the difference between the horizontal & perceived distance along the hypotenuse is negligible at normal hunting distances. 12 yds does not appear to be 20 yds as suggested by sinner... 12 yds horizontal distance is only 13 yds diagonally (hypotenuse) from 15 feet above ground. At 20 yds the difference is even less... 20 yds horizontal is only 20.6 yds along the hypotenuse. The difference becomes even less as the length of the shot increases due to the shallower angle to the target. The biggest difference would be at close shots... 5 yds horizontal = 7yds along the diagonal. So, as stated in my original response... at normal hunting distances, there is absolutely no reason to alter your point of aim when hunting out of a tree stand that is 15 feet above ground... except perhaps for very close shots at less than 5 Yds.

From: sheepdogreno
Date: 04-Oct-17




It's a form issue...Sunday I missed a big doe at 15 yds shot under her lowered my bow arm bad. 2 hrs later I smacked 2 does back to back by maintaining my shot sequence and drilling a hole with my eyes as to where I wanted to shoot and not taking my eye off the spot until the deer was running after impact. Practice elevated keep your shot sequence and form and it will come together. But trust me even experienced guys will still miss from time to time! If it was easy it'd be called killin not huntin

From: lv2bohunt
Date: 04-Oct-17




Nhuck

I would pay close attention to Chenryiv's PM. He kills some nice deer and obviously knows his stuff.

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 04-Oct-17




I think for some, especially those uncomfortable with heights, the hypotenuse appears longer than it really is so they 'believe" they are looking further than they really are. Couple this with the right angle real distance and some are tricked into believing they are taking a much longer shot than they really are.

There are two processes at work on their mind, the hypotenuse vs the horizontal distance, and the height factor actually making the hypotenuse appear longer than it actually is, which is already longer than the horizontal or right angle as some have called it. I have seen this at work with many hunters, especially those who actually do climb to 25-30 feet in height(which I would never suggest). And yes, gravity only works on the horizontal and stated numbers are in a vacuum so not totally true to this situation. The concept however is correct.

From: Silverstreak Archer
Date: 04-Oct-17




Here's another thought. For most of the spring and summer I practice on the ground, shooting at a big square target behind my house. My brain knows where the arrow needs to be on that block in relation to the target to get a hit. I usually shoot at 10, 15, and 20 yards. At 10 I generally don't pay much attention to the "gap"; it's point and shoot. At 15 and 20 I need to pay attention, but no matter what, the arrow always appears superimposed on the target.

Now, along comes August, I put mu 3D target off my deck to simulate tree stand shots. As some others have said, yup, you need to bend at the waist. (I you don't your form changes, draw lenth changes, and everything goes to heck. For those who don't beleive that have someone do a slow-mo video of your shot.). Invariably my first shot always goes high. My brain says the arrow is supposed to be "on" the target. The target, however, has changed. That deer target is 1/3 the distance across the face of the block. Even at 15 my arrow is well below the belly line of the deer in order to hit in the vitals. Esentially I have to retool my brain a bit to get used to what it needs to see. It is vital to practice shots you expect to get in the woods.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but also keep in mind that as the deer gets closer under you, or the stand gets higher, the window for actually hitting the target gets smaller, but that is another discussion. And now I think it is time to go punch a few holes in the 3D target before I start my day.

From: ShadeHaven
Date: 04-Oct-17




I didnt read more than the first two comments. All I can say (im a guy who missed 13 deer in fall of 2014) i was ready to wrap my bow around a tree. I was pissed.

Pick a hair behind the should at heart area. i always shot over them. So Id say pick low vital area. I never did figure out what i was doing wrong. I went hunting with a compound in 2015 and 2016. This year I started building bows and i absolutely smoked that buck I shot a few weeks ago.

I just needed a break I think.

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 04-Oct-17




The heart is the lowest vital area in the chest cavity.

From: Onehair
Date: 04-Oct-17




Funny but that seems to be a normal problem when just getting started bow hunting. I sailed over the first seven. For me I discovered that my eyes seem to focus on the top of the deer. Take a second and zero in on the spot or as in my case that Onehair

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 04-Oct-17




The vast majority of my misses and wounds have been high shots, that over a 49 year stickbow career.

From: Landshark Launcher
Date: 04-Oct-17




Sent you a pm. Remember KISS,, keep it simple stupid..8-)

From: Lowcountry
Date: 04-Oct-17




http://tradbow.com/shooting-high/

Nhbuck - Cut and paste the link above. It goes over what you have been posting about.

From: GF
Date: 04-Oct-17




“So, as stated in my original response... at normal hunting distances, there is absolutely no reason to alter your point of aim when hunting out of a tree stand that is 15 feet above ground... except perhaps for very close shots at less than 5 Yds.”

I disagree.... to a degree.

But that depends on how you define “point of aim“: you DO need to pick a different spot than you would if you were not elevated, but you DO NOT (IMO) have to do anything unusual in order to hit it.

In other words, if you have to think about how you’re going to aim, you probably shouldn’t take the shot. Sounds a little harsh, but why would you take a shot that you haven’t made 100 or a thousand times in practice?

As for where you want to hit them, it’s a bit higher than usual, not lower.

From: Michael Schwister Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 04-Oct-17




bend at the waste to ensure your torso is 90 degrees to the target. Another option is to cant your bow, the steeper the angle to further the cant. Canting is especially effective with a longbow with the arrow right on the bow hand. Lastly, looking at the whole deer instead of picking a single hair will lead to shooting over their back.

From: Draven
Date: 10-Oct-17




I think the problem is the ability to approximate the yardage before anything else when you never shot from elevated positions. Are you shooting gap? If so, learn to estimate yardage based on deer size, or mark around your tree stand on trees or bush or earth your max comfortable distance and don’t shoot outside the marks. And train in stand before shooting live animal.

From: 4t5
Date: 12-Oct-17




Practice shooting from the height you will hunt from and you will answer your own question, arbitrary answers won't.

From: Fletch
Date: 13-Oct-17




Here's a video by Jimmy Blackmon about shooting from elevated rests, and form comments on uphile/downhill archery shots. I've learned a great deal from these videos (his and many other contributors). A general "thank you" to those people who made the time to produce and share these educational videos.

Hope it helps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huk5lsIu1_U&list=PLR0FGX9w9pPIqEWAUPfNlWO_Sz5JVWnnC&index=30

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 13-Oct-17




Thanks for the link, Fletch.

I just watched Jimmy's video. Definitely worth the view. Angled shots are carefully explained in a relaxed logical manner, with no drama. Good stuff.





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