What's a marked 3D ? Known distance? What's the point?

Yep, dunno. Some folks like them

A lot of the younger people coming in to the sport don't see the need for range estimation for their style of hunting. They want known yardage 3-D.

Same as rangefinders or binos used as rangefinders .. ?

It's like allowing rangefinders but won't take as long :)

It is an attempt to increase attendance at national level shoots. There are a lot of very good dot shooters that have a difficult time with distance estimation so they will not attend. In the pro class often times it's the best judge of distance that wins the shoot rather than the best shooter. With known distance these organizations can draw field archers into the game.

Personally I like range estimation being part of the game but it sure seems to work for Asa to have a known distance class.

In many ways archery is now a strange sport. In field archery they'll tell you exactly what the target distance is and where the target center is. With 3D they'll do neither...but still rely on high point score as the deciding factor for competition...even though the targets are shaped like hunting animals where making quality shots depend heavily on knowing distance and where the 'target center' (vitals) are. Then there's target barebow archery which has little to do with hunting and yet is often identified with traditional archery, a descriptive term for hunting with traditional bows and arrows but one that many target archers not only don't accept but often make fun of. And don't forget compound and crossbow archery, the practical alternative to using a rifle.

In today's archery nonsensical is the new norm.

I recall when the folks in Northern CA. asked why we in the south of state did not have marked yardage 3D's. Like said, "what's the point". We did try it once at our club to see if we would get more target shooters. It's like having a two arrow shoot, it's dark when everyone finally finishes. Needles to say it did not increase our attendance.

3-D archery is in the same historical-cyclical pattern that happened to NFAA. The top competitive target shooters (10%) will define what the sport is. NFAA was originally composed of target archers that broke away to create a shooting round more like hunting (unmarked, in the woods, difficulty with terrain) Sound familiar?

The IBO was a group of NFAA bowhunters that wanted a round that more represented hunting shots (unmarked, terrain, one shot, animal silhouette). Today again the competitive target archers (top 10%) in 3-D will change the round to suit their competitive desire. It just seems to be the nature of the sport of archery in the USA that organizations continue to push the difficulty (smaller and smaller bullseyes, longer distances) and create archery rounds designed around the professional competitive target archer. I think it is simply the nature of competition. Popular 3-D competition is now so far removed from mimicking hunting shots that it is well target archery with an animal target.

The scoring in ASA in particular is bizarre from a bowhunting perspective, it has become novelty shooting and for big money. Marking the distance of the 3-D targets is again the same cyclical nature that NFAA went thru. All NFAA ranges at the beginning of the organization were unmarked to mimic bowhunting. It is just the next evolution in the history of archery repeating itself.

I dont get it either. There is an asa club here that does it. Almost all the compound shooters choose to shoot known distance

Compound shooters typically reset their sights according to the distance... maybe that's the same as fixed crawl shooters :-)

Rules don't change because ten percent of the shooters want them changed. The majority of the NFAA as time went on wanted known distances, and if you think that made it easy, go shoot a few and get back to us. As for unmarked or marked it appears there is still a choice, so it's not a big deal. If you don't like the marked shoots...don't go. Seems silly though since guys already spend a lot of time figuring out ways to judge targets by their size in relation to an arrow tip...or thumb, etc., etc., etc.

Before the first NFAA Nationals in 1946, at Allegan, Michigan, all archery shoots were marked distance...from the York Round to the American Round. And shooting know distance sure doesn't hurt you in the hunting field....been there and found that out. I have yet to see a marked 3D course though, so maybe you can elaborate where they are being utilized.

Having a Rhinehart 100 here in NE Iowa next weekend, and it will be a completely marked course. I too don't see the point.

Might just as well put little orange dots in the kill zone and be done with it, or for that matter, why use expensive 3d foam animals if all you want to do is shoot a dot?

Nobody wants a challenge. If the shot is too far away, at a poor angle, or partially blocked by limbs or brush they'll whine and cry. Disgusting.

Every shooter will have the same advantage or disadvantage, depending on who is talking about it.. Go and shoot it, then tell us how much your score improved due to marked distance. That way we can really see the rest of the story.

Seems like it might be good for somebody with seriously detailed crawls...Black Widow tab, stitch count tattooed somewhere handy :-)

"That way we can really see the rest of the story."

Nah.

The question seems to me to be this: did you enjoy it as much as unknown distance?

"LOL"

Well George, maybe we could just put all the targets broadside at 15 yards, that would be fair for everybody. We'd all have the same chance right. Or maybe ten yards and we wouldn't even need separate classes, we can all shoot perfect scores.

Bruce: Blank bale.

JusPassin, are they going to make them all short...even shorter than they already are? I'm not suggesting any such thing, they are already pretty much all the same and it isn't all that hard for a good archer to be able to relate a foam deer's size to distance. That's what the best shooters do anyway. Heck most are not over thirty yards. You guys that hate this aren't even willing to attend a marked shoot, so I wonder where the issue really lies.

George, chill.

From a club member who has to do the work a marked 3D is a pain in the butt. Someone has to "Mark" the yardages for all the targets. That means running around with a rangefinder taking ranges from each stake for say 40 target shoot. Been there done that, then have some "expert" claim number such and such wasn't the correct range according to the way he had his wiz Bang sight set. On top of that you get some Trad guys moaning the ranges are to far. They lost an arrow on the 40 yard standing bull Elk. Come on, dang target is as big as a bus. After all this did we end up with more shooters? Not really, guys who do not like marked stayed away. For us it was a wash.

For me a 3D shoot has only one purpose (other than the social aspect if I shoot with friends), and that's HUNTING practice. And for me that means range estimation, if not with an actual yardage figure but with "mental" one as I shoot instinctive.

Well, at least some of the folks understand trying to draw more people in to the sport.

Odd how you learn to estimate yardage, by knowing yardage.........

What is marked yardage 3D?

Answer - a voluntary option. Just ignore the yardages if you don't want to use them. Really is that simple.

I've never shot at a marked course, so I can't compare them. I go for the hunting practice and the fun. We have even asked 2 of course owners to set up a little more challenging angles and thru holes in the brush at the trad distance. It is strictly your choice which stake you shoot from. Only one of our group is interested in score. Of course he's the best shot in our group.

The course I mentioned I went to last year. I just felt walking around where everything was so "formalized" was too far removed from what I felt a 3d course should be, namely a course that forces you to "pick a spot" at unknown distances under simulated hunting conditions.

I was the only traditional shooter there I saw, waiting at every target while all the other shooters had to adjust their sights for the marked yardages was just too much.

Well, it looks like I've been describing our shoots the wrong way.

I thought a "marked 3D course" simply meant that we put orange ribbon up along the path to follow, and use pieces of painted rebar to suggest where you shoot from. As in, "Hey Randy, is the course marked, or do we need to go out and mark it so even YOU won't get lost?"

Now I know that my descriptions have been wrong all along!!!!

I better mark this down. With orange AND yellow.

You could mark the yardage and stick little orange dots in the center of the vitals and I still ain't gonna shoot a perfect score. And not many will. Geeze,just go have fun.

Has anyone shot a perfect score with a marked shoot, it's just a different game.

Whittler & Grizz...sounds like you've got as much experience with "marked 3D" as George Stout.

Tell us about your experience.

Don't care anymore. Field and 3d archery competitions have become sports with no more relevance to hunting than a game of darts. To be truly competitive you have to use bows and arrows too light for ethical hunting, with attachments not practical for hunting, and shooting/aiming styles that don't work well in most hunting environments. Marked yardages are only a small additional step in the same direction.

I personally think it's a shame, as we already had some excellent target archery games unrelated to hunting.

My current choices are:

1. Texas State Longbow Shoot

2. Shoot-for-fun events like CTAS and NALS

Last year our club hosted a marked 3-D shoot. At the registration table you could pick up a card that had all the distances written on it. Otherwise, just shoot it unmarked. Everyone I talked to had a fun time.

I recently saw a video of the muzzy stump-shoot, always knew kinda what it was, but after viewing it thought that is more representative of a "bowhunting" round than the current 3-D shoots. Competition in its nature just leads to things like this. People who are competitors want a fair playing field, especially when shooting for money! I am not knocking it, I for sure have shots tons of archery as a competitor, but 3-D has become removed from its original intent. Fine, things change, but this will alienate a large percentage of bowhunters that shoot the shoots for practice FOR BOWHUNTING. Many will see the marked distance as not what they do out in the field hunting game and too "Target" oriented. The same people that left NFAA to start IBO had those same resentments towards the changes and there not being a round more like bowhunting. The top shooters as I have said will rule the organization, not the majority. It is what it is. History is repeating itself...

Hi John... I've been told I'm "too competitive" but sadly, I ain't "truly competitive"...

I know a lot of folks (mostly Navajo) who drive long distances, often with families, to shoot 3D for fun ... only a few care much about winning. Fun is the name of the game. I think most of them hunt, fwiw, and they live by their own ethics.

I'll just mention that our friends in whitetail country seem to enjoy bows that some might consider too tricky or " too light for ethical hunting."

The other thing that fuels this is simply our modern archer counterparts simply do not hunt the way we do! They know the distance thru measurement with ranging device or stepping off, and are shooting at game at much further than trad hunters. So it is only the natural evolution that marking the distance for many modern bowhunters mimics their experience in the field, but will be less accepted by older bowhunters and many trad bowhunters. My guess is that marked distance at 3-D in the long run, will do nothing to advance or deplete attendance at the current 3-D shoot. Those that leave will be replaced by those that enter. The modern folks way outrank us as far as numbers in the sport of 3-D, no question about that. The "pros" in the modern archery will flock to mark distance because then it is a shooters game, no unknown variable. Most competitive shooters will follow that lead, imo.

You're right jk. I use to shoot IBO competive 3D. So I have zero experience at marked courses. That doesn't mean I just fell off a turnip truck. I know after a few years of compition and see all the bickering and back biting that can suck all the fun out of archery. My point was that if you attend a shoot, just participate and enjoy the sport. There'll be another come along that might fit your pistol. But maybe to some it's more fun to be condescending to others.

Another post that shows how good we have it in America. We actually have people not content to enjoy thier hobby, but want to bicker about how other people should enjoy thier hobby.Sad Sad Sad.

There are a *lot* of issues being discussed in '3D archery', and not just on 'net forums. You couldn't pay me to be on the 'rules committee' of a major archery organization!

Where I am - central Massachusetts - we are blessed with a wide range of nearby shoots. Most are informal shoots but there are also IBO state and regional shoots, as well as 'marked distance' shoots.

I certainly won't speak against anything that gets folks out and shooting - we 'traditional' archers are not going to preserve 'field sports' all by our lonesome selves.

I may not be enthused by 'sporting clays' or 'high power rifle' or other shooting disciplines but I will cheer on anyone who is out there playing.

We have had a marked distance class around here the last couple of years. That way you can choose your class. This year one club has put in a 80 yard known class. It has got a lot of interest. Archery is a sport where you can choose what makes you happy.

jk -

To be blunt, ask yourself what the longest shot on the course will be. If it's under 30-35 yards, there no such thing as "unmarked", not with a reasonable amount of practice anyway. If you're shooting out to 60 yards or more, then things change.

Viper out.

Viper...since it's a mixed, not "traditional" event I imagine some targets will be out to 40 yards and beyond. I'm OK with 40, but I hate to miss in desert rocks :-(

Maybe they'll have a trad shooting stake...don't know.

Why would I "ask myself" when I can ask them?

jk -

Back in the day, we had shoots that trained you to shoot various distances. Indoor Freemans, Mini Field/Hunter and Flint rounds, outdoor PAAs and a bunch of others. I'm just thinking that type of target shooting taught guys the ropes faster and better than just roving and taking shots at random objects.

Even full Field course, which I thing are the most brutal score wise. Even though the distances are marked, time out you're guessing what to do. The advantage is that where ever your first shot goes, you have three others to compensate.

Reader's Digest version: the more you shoot at distance, the fewer unmarked distances there are.

Viper out.

Back in the day none of the courses were marked. You had to learn how to guess at the yardages and look at where your first arrow went and make some adjustments.

The new breed of archer can't do it or just doesn't want to take the time to learn how do it.

It is just the way of changing times I guess. We participate in 4 or 5 shoots a year and not one of them are marked or have any type of scoring. They are laid out to prepare you for hunting season.

Viper, I suspect all of us envy "back in the day" ...I certainly do. Did those "full Field course" shooters string walk, back in the day?

jk -

Few, very few.

Viper out.

Sights?

jk

50% +/-

Viper out.

"Did those "full Field course" shooters string walk, back in the day?"

Frank Gandy was the first Barebow archer to win the NFAA nationals by string walking. That was in 1967. To my knowledge, every person who has won the barebow belt (unofficial award given to the top scoring male BB archer at the NFAA Outdoor Nationals every year) since then has also been a string walker.

JK: There were two divisions of tournament archery, instinctive and freestyle. There were classes within those divisions. If you shot out of your class in a certain amount of shoots you were moved up a class and competed.

My dad never used the "string walking " method when competing as an instinctive archer. He won or placed in 300 archery tournaments when he competed. The last big shoot was the Nationals in Watkins Glenn. He came in 10th instinctive, my brother placed 3rd in three event and 1st in the fourth (instinctive) and My uncle came in second in freestyle.

In Michigan there were several archery tournaments every weekend and not one shoot marked the distances. Lots of archery history has been long forgotten but back in the day there were some really good archers that didn't need to be told the distnces of a target to shoot good.

Thanks Jon :-)

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