I'm in the final stages of tuning a CE arrow to my recurve. Shooting off the shelf. Here are the specs.

BW PSA 50# @ 28", draw to 29.5", normal strikeplate, with "catwhiskers" silencers.

Arrow is 30.5", standard insert, bareshaft, good nock fit.

I have one 350 arrow shaft and one 250 arrow shaft. Available point weights are 175, 200, and 300.

Bareshaft tuning results:

1. CE 350 w/ 200 grn tip shoots a sort of stiff spine (Dynamic spine 67.9) 2. CE 250 w/ 175 grn tip shoots a weak spine (Dynamic spine 62) 3. CE 250 w/ 200 grn tip shoots even weaker spine (Dynamic spine 56.5) 3. CE 350 w/ 300 grn tip is perfectly spined (Dynamic spine of 48.5)

The dynamic spine was found using Stu Miller's spreadsheet.

My shooting results simply don't agree with the spreadsheet. It's not even close.

So my question is whether the sample 350 and 250 shafts could be way out of specs? These are the older (discontinued last year) Carbon Express Heritage shafts with the white lettering.

It seems like the 350 is either unusually stiff or the 250 is unusually weak. Could there be that much variance in the spines of the arrow shafts?

To make it clearer:

1. CE 350 w/ 200 grn tip shoots a sort of stiff spine (Dynamic spine 67.9)

2. CE 250 w/ 175 grn tip shoots a weak spine (Dynamic spine 62)

3. CE 250 w/ 200 grn tip shoots even weaker spine (Dynamic spine 56.5)

4. CE 350 w/ 300 grn tip is perfectly spined (Dynamic spine of 48.5)

You are so far over spined your getting false readings. Read www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version'.

I shoot 50 pounds at 29 and when I shoot a .390 I have 360 grains up from.

My normal arrow is a .620.

Wait a minute, is that CE model mean .350 deflection? I am guessing now. Still look at the web site. You can have tuning problems with nock kick that will make you want to but a bullet in your head. You can have problems with ACS but most are illuminated.

Most of us when looking at carbon use the deflection. I wouldn't even know how to figure the dynamic spine from the static, arrow length and point weight. Where did you get that?

Bowmania

Bowmania

CE 350 is a .324" deflection CE 250 is a .391" deflection

I agree those shafts are way to stiff. Try a 500 spine shaft.

I know BW will handle a little more spine but that 350 is overkill. Then agian I am not into extreme FOC. I would also recommend the 150 spine. Look up on YouTube Ken Beck's tuning video. He mentions shaft bouncing off shelf from torquing the string as giving false stiff indications.

PECO and M60gunner:

The CE 250 (.391") is shooting weak and you're both advising me to shoot weaker?

You're getting a false reading like mentioned above. You indeed need to go weaker. Don't get hung up on calculators. You need to start with a common sense static spine according to your arrow length, draw....bow weight and tip weight you want to use. No way is a .391 too weak.

Hmm... This doesn't make much sense. Here is a chart from 3Rivers/Easton that shows that 340 or 300 is the correct spine.

Doesn't make sense to talk about spine unless you measure it directly or have reason to trust the shaft-maker.

"Dynamic spine" describes arrows, not shafts. Carbon Express makes shafts...they can't be blamed for table-related experiences and folklore/preconceptions about arrows.

Chart here:

http://www.3riversarchery.com/pdf/ArrowCharts.pdf

jk: you said "measure it directly or have reason to trust the shaft-maker".

That's exactly my question. Has anybody seen where Carbon Express's spines vary from what they claim?

Most of us don't own spine testers so that is why I'm asking the question. The manufacturers also make claims about straightness and weight tolerances but I'm most concerned about spine tolerances. It seems like some of the carbon shafts have a stiff side and a weaker side - like wood but less consistent than wood.

I believe cx to be one of the best as far as spine accuracy and consistency per arrow per dz of shafts. They have a continuous weave, no seam. The seam on some of the other manufacture's shafts is was causes the weak/stiff side. There are a few guys on here that have spine testers and do lots of testing, hopefully they can chime in and help you out.

I have found all arrow manufacture's spine charts to be stiff when it comes to carbon arrows and trad gear.

I think many here have spine testers that they've made inexpensively...especially the wood guys. I did that and standardized very accurately using shafts from two superb shaft suppliers.

I used tuna fish can full of fishing weights to accomplish the deflection.

The spine charts will show stiff shaft for traditional and compounds, it's not just traditional equipment, and it's done for safety reasons and for to protect companies form guys shooting too lite spined arrows from their bows. Carbon Express, like every other company, has arrow grades. What cCarbon Express shaft are you shooting, cause cheap shafts are not hand spined and matched like the higher end shafts. And like everyone else says, over spined.

It's not the spine, it's how you are reading the dynamics. If you want to argue that's fine, but carbon's nature is to resist bending more than any other material, and correct more quickly. Your arrows aren't bending properly and you're getting a kick that creates a false reading of weak.

Off the shelf on any material will also require somewhat of a weaker spine. 50# bow with a 30.5" arrow will never require a .391 static spine unless you have about 400 grains out front. We are trying to help you but that won't work if you're not willing to try what we're saying. That bow setup, with what you want to feed it, should shoot a 500 with 175 out front at 30.5". Whether or not you believe that or want to try it is up to you.

It's not the spine, it's how you are reading the dynamics. If you want to argue that's fine, but carbon's nature is to resist bending more than any other material, and correct more quickly. Your arrows aren't bending properly and you're getting a kick that creates a false reading of weak.

Off the shelf on any material will also require somewhat of a weaker spine. 50# bow with a 30.5" arrow will never require a .391 static spine unless you have about 400 grains out front. We are trying to help you but that won't work if you're not willing to try what we're saying. That bow setup, with what you want to feed it, should shoot a 500 with 175 out front at 30.5". Whether or not you believe that or want to try it is up to you.

Every single person responding has said that the arrow is over-spined. I'm surprised to see this. There must be something to this. This means that the Easton chart (link above) and the 3Rivers/Stu Miller calculators are both way wrong and have been making archers shoot over-spined shafts for years, decades even.

In order to understand what is going on I've also shot Gold Tip Traditional 55/75 (.400" spine) and they have shot like they were way under-spined as well. This also goes against what everyone has been saying about the bow needing a weaker spine.

Buglmin: These are the older (discontinued last year) Carbon Express Heritage shafts with the white lettering. New this year they have black lettering. I bought them from Lancaster Archery so I don't know if they count as cheap shafts. They have a date stamp on them that shows they were made in 2013.

I'm not trying to argue George. I'm trying to learn.

I just called Roger at Black Widow (he sells the Carbon Express Heritage shaft) to ask about the spine to shoot. He said that the CE 350 (.324" deflection) is the right shaft and that I just had to get them 1" longer.

I am surprised at the wide variety of experiences and varying results. I'll order longer CE 350 shafts and will also try some lighter spines and will report back in a week or so.

Do you the actual draw weight of your bow at your draw length?

Bow is 50# at 28". I draw to 29.5" so probably drawing 55-56#.

Typically there is a great deal of variance in spine on carbon arrows. To have any confidence that you have a matching set I would strongly recommend that you personally measure and sort spine weights on any batch of. Arbon arrows regardless of manufacturer

Generally the carbon arrows are manufactured with marginal process and material control (lots of variance) and then 100% spine tested and sorted into groups. As anyone in the QA profession will tell you. "100 percent inspection is 80 percent effective". Or "you can't sort in quality"

Sounds like something I saw on TV on Genius when Einstein was doing calculations. LOL

You fellers make this so hard and it shouldn't be and the dramer that goes along with it all you should be in Hollywood.LOL

Interesting discussion here. I have a BW PAX - 50#@28. My draw is 31"

I'm using CE Heritage 350 cut to 32" with 125 gr tips. Arrows fly like darts. I was not able to get 250's to work on this bow.

BW recurves seem to require a stiffer spine arrow than other recurves. (i can't use this arrow on my other recurves of similar draw weight). As well, if there is one thing I have learned is that people's advice on arrow selection are often based on typical draw lengths - with longer draws and arrows, a stiffer spined arrow is required than what might be required for a shorter draw.

This is precisely why I love and shoot wood....Y'all pic your nits about carbon, I'm going outside and shoot for awhile.

What's your method of bare shaft tuning? Go to the website Bowmania suggested and try that. Your BW is cut past center and will shoot a stiffer arrow. I admit I have never tuned carbon arrows. After seeing all the threads on them I don't think I want to try. From what George said about the characteristics of carbon equal spines of AL wood and carbon won't necessarily tune the same.

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