Have not posted much lately as I'm getting older and older and have been involved in "babysitting" my nine month old grandson. He takes the air out of ya.

Anyway, I purchased a used Dwyer Endeavor a couple of weeks ago and am in the process of finding the best arrow shaft combo.

The bow is 43#s @ 27", my draw length, and I've tried Axis 400s, 500s. I found that the 400s were way too stiff. The 500s will work at full length with 270 grains on the point end, but they drop like a rock.

I ordered some 600 Axis Traditionals and hope to be able to cut them near 29" bop which is my favorite arrow length. I'm wondering what point weight I can expect to use?

Just wondering if anyone else has used the 600s in a bow near my bow's weight. Thanks.

The 600's will be closer in static spine. The 400's are crazy stiff for that bow and the 500's, as you found out, need weighed down too.

If you want a 29" arrow on the 600, I suspect...and this is approximate, that you will need still close to 200 grains up front. The uniqueness of carbon is that it resists flex more than other material, but it also corrects quicker after release. It's a little fussier than aluminum in that category, but once you get the music started they work great. I draw 27 as well, and shoot like weights. I couldn't get 500's to work with anything under 250 when I tried them on that bow, but 600's with 160 grain tips and arrows left at 30" worked well. Now all that said, I find aluminum eaiser to tune and have been doing that for so long that I just won't change. I do shoot wood as well.

I would personally try the 600 at 30" and from 160 to 200 grains up front on the Dwyer. That should be darn close...assuming you have low stretch on that bow.

The 600's will be closer in static spine. The 400's are crazy stiff for that bow and the 500's, as you found out, need weighed down too.

If you want a 29" arrow on the 600, I suspect...and this is approximate, that you will need still close to 200 grains up front. The uniqueness of carbon is that it resists flex more than other material, but it also corrects quicker after release. It's a little fussier than aluminum in that category, but once you get the music started they work great. I draw 27 as well, and shoot like weights. I couldn't get 500's to work with anything under 250 when I tried them on that bow, but 600's with 160 grain tips and arrows left at 30" worked well. Now all that said, I find aluminum eaiser to tune and have been doing that for so long that I just won't change. I do shoot wood as well.

I would personally try the 600 at 30" and from 160 to 200 grains up front on the Dwyer. That should be darn close...assuming you have low stretch on that bow.

Thanks George. I thought you were headed to Denton Hill?

We are. Leaving tomorrow morning so we will be there late afternoon Friday, and most of the day Saturday.

What George said. I have bows in the 41-45# range and I run 29-29.5" with 85- 150 grn points. The Axis is a little different because of the small diameter. You'll definitely end up with a good setup with the 600's

Thanks guys. I love the Axis carbons. I have a 400 which I shoot out of a 54# MAIII, tipped with a weighted judo point that I have re-fletched three times and I still have not damaged that arrow! I'm just getting on in age and 54# is getting too much for me. I never thought that would happen as I shot 50 and 60# bows all my life. Things do change and so do people.

@ 29" it takes 175 up front on my 40lb setup. Full length om able to do 125.

The Dwyer Endeavor is a short, 58" radically Reflex/Deflexed hybrid not much unlike my Big Jim's 56"/46#@28" Thunderchild.

As you've well noticed by now these sort of bows are not for those short on tuning patience but once you get them dialed in with the arrow configuration of their preference?...they are an absolute joy to stump and move through the thick stuff with and really shine when shooting quarters gets tight.

That said?...I offer you the following points to consider based on my experience with the Thunderchild....

Point #1: It was my finding that because bows such as these are typically low in mass and high in power?...they don't seem to get along well with light or even medium weight arrows...mine loved a minimum 10gpp and up and exhibited a strong dislike for anything lighter.

Point #2: Without knowing how far before center your arrow is positioned unto the bows window/wall?...it would be an exercise in futility for anyone to guesstimate what spine, length and point-weight might work best for you...especially when variables such as grip and the dynamics of your personal release enter the mix.

But what I can tell you is this...

Tuning seemed to go a lot easier when I just left the arrows full length which in turn enhanced my sight picture (via a longer shaft to view and line up on target) and offered up a higher level of flexibility and forgiveness where tuning was concerned where after all was said and done?...my Thunderchild shot full length Axis .400's like nobodies business...

The inserts were the standard 16gr alum. H.I.T. inserts tipped with 175gr screw-ins...

If memory serves?...their full length from nock center too E.O.C. was right at 32"s and they weighed 505gr fletched for 11gpp but?...the bow shot smooth as glass and was very well behaved at the shot...

I loved the rig so much?....it was my bow of choice to take up too the BR Mountains to do some stumping...(I live in south FL)...

While the weight of the arrows was 11gpp and the bow was but 56"s short?...I had little difficulty hammering out 1' groups at this stumps base from 45yds out from our cabins porch as arrow flight was extremely stable and therefore very predictable where holding my saunders bludgeon heads at the top of the stump on these 32" arrows landed them right at the stumps base...Hope that helps. ;)

Whoops!...I might add that....

Working with long full length shafts made short work of dialing in the arrows where the shorter shafts I tried?...proved to be a bit sqirrely and never tuned as well as these. :)

I'll try for a full length shaft, but I'm hoping for 29" with a weighted front.

Im shooting 600s cut to 29 1/4 inches. 45lb @28, recurve with low stretch string.

Drawing 28 inches, total of 175 grains up front. They fly good but like George said you may have to go a little heavier.

Axis Trad 600's at 28.5 inches is what I use for my old 43# recurve with a short draw and its a match made in heaven. You should be fine with the 600's.

Almost the same as Brian Waters, 42# bow, 29" 600 spine arrow, 175 up front works best for me.

A full length 400 is 32" long right? That means at that length it's not a 400 anymore, it's closer to a 550, so it behaves like a softer spine. That's simple dynamic spine at work. For his draw and arrow length, a 600 is a better choice by far. And Jinx, I shoot short bows all the time and I find them just as easy to tune as a longer bow.

I personally don't understand the "let them full length" mindset. It's just extra arrow you don't need, and little extra in mass...maybe another 25 grains. For me, I want just enough arrow to clear the back of my bow by about half an inch or an inch at most. Everyone is different of course, but the man asked about an arrow that is 29" back of point. My suggestion is for just that.

What George said. Whether carbon, graphite, wood or aluminum when you leave the arrow 4" longer than needed, you soften the spine 20lbs....easy. Can't change that.

Hunters shooting carbons need to do a little visiting with some of the FITA guys and gals.

I use the 600 spine from my Bear TD with 45# limbs. Not sure what the weight of insert is. I have those Top Hat steel field points that screw on. They are 125 grains. I do not use this bow /limb combo to hunt so a lighter arrow for 3D and targets is OK with me.

Not going to argue but from another perspective?....ask any Barebowmen if they chop their arrows and after they tell you..."No, Never"?...then ask them why they don't.

Ed, I shoot 600's 29"s with my 27" draw. I have the 75gr inserts and 125 or 155gr practice heads. With my 48@28 Great Northern Critter Gitter they bareshaft great. The Critter Gitter I believe is cut 1/8" from center and is a mild bow. I also shoot the 600s out of my Shrew Classic Hunter which is a more aggressive hybrid style of bow like your Dwyer. The same arrow set up bareshafts a little weak out of the Shrew which is 47@28. I think if I changed the insert to 50 grains that would help them bareshaft better out of the shrew. I think you could tune the 600s well to your Dwyer and be close to 10gr per pound of draw weight with your Dwyer.

Plenty of Barebow shooters cut their arrows. It's just the guys trying to have a 25 yard point on that go full length.

I've gotten now where I don't like the feel of a very long arrow. It feels strange clearing the shelf. Kind of "spongy" somehow.

I still have a little extra length on my arrows. But not much

If it's spined and tuned correctly?...the feel of a longer arrow is no different than that of a shorter arrow matter fact?...

A longer arrow actually allows for use of lighter point weights where you're not screwing 250gr points into heavy brass inserts to induce the same state of dynamic tune and the reason you won't see many (if any) of the top barebow archers chopping full length arrows down is because that extra length enhances aiming via a longer sight radius so it's not all just about getting a close distance point-on.

The folks who chop arrows are those who use riser mounted clickers and usually?..."Sights"...such clickers are not permitted to be in the window viewing area of a barebow rig but that's not to say they don't use clickers and many do but they are the limb mounted, bowstring actuated clickers such as the clickety-clicker.

I'm kid of blown away at some of the perspectives being aired out here regarding this.

I appreciate all the help guys. I know now that I have chosen the correct spine for my bow. I'll just have to tune the arrows by picking the correct weight point and insert combo. I'll be very careful when I shorten the shaft to obtain the correct flight. Thanks...Ed.

Just for grins, try 75 or 100gr inserts with whatever spine/length choice you've arrived at. Common thinking about spine and point weight doesn't work as well with carbon as many think: Front-of- center shouldn't be forgotten.

So many variables that I wouldn't even begin to make a spine suggestion without being right there during the tuning process. With that being said a 600 spine arrow out of my 43-45 # bows would fly sideways due to weakness. I draw and hold a consistent 29" all the way to the release of the arrow. Recently I tuned my elk rig, 45# recurve, dead center shot, 2117, 29-5/8" long, standard insert with 125 grain point. They fly perfect to 50 yards with or without fletching.

I do shoot 600 VAPs out of my target rig which is 35# with 30" arrow but only 100 grains total up front. Same results as the elk rig.

Not much a guy can do but get a hold of a few spines and see what work for you.

One of the issues I see that causes an archer to get confused about what spine they actually needs start with how they were measured for draw length and weight. Some archers are measured while their buddy marks an arrow that he yanks back and holds for the marking which is an accurate measurement if that's where he consistently holds each shot. The problem starts when in actuality that archer creeps 2" from the measured distance causing a shorter stroke and 6# less draw weight and maybe even lost energy transfer due to a poor release. All equals up to needing a weaker spine arrow than originally measured for.

JMHO, Tom

Jinkster said: "A longer arrow actually allows for use of lighter point weights where you're not screwing 250gr points into heavy brass inserts to induce the same state of dynamic tune and the reason you won't see many (if any) of the top barebow archers chopping full length arrows down is because that extra length enhances aiming via a longer sight radius so it's not all just about getting a close distance point-on."

Jinkster, The Barebow World Cup is up on Facebook. They aren't using full length arrows.

Also, if you are screwing in 250 grn points and heavy brass inserts....YOUR ARROW IS TOO STIFF. I'm shooting 29" arrows with standard inserts and 125grn points for my hunting arrow. Mine happen to be 600's.

In summary...long arrows are used to give a short point on. Here are some 'pretty good Barebow shooters"

Now for INDOOR you'll see long arrows

Dude,

I haven't bought into this yet but a lot are shooting super heavy points in an effort to gain penetration...also stiffer arrows generally weigh more(but not always) so they need the point weight and length to weaken the spine. My elk arrows blow through a bull just fine with standard insert and 125 grain heads.

The long arrow only goes so far for decreasing gap. I can cut mine 30 or 33 with minimal change in my point on distance....once I get the point an 1-1/2 or so beyond the shelf I'm happy with that. Nothing shortens the point on quicker than a higher anchor.

JSD...I stand corrected...I completely discounted the idea this archer may be string walking or engage in long distance competition with his 58" Dwyer Endeavor.

But I do know long arrows worked best on my 56"/46# Thunderchild which is much like it.

It has taken me some time to find the right carbon arrow recipe for my 42# Toelke Whip... I use the Heritage 75s which spine .670. They tune perfect for me full length with 125 grains up front. This puts me at just over 10gpp. It happens to give me a 20 yard point on, which is a plus for me. Previously I was loading up .600 spine mfxs and gt 1535s with 200 up front to get tune---at over 13 gpp my trajectories were challenging past 20 yards---for me they dropped like rocks at 30. Recently I have been playing with Cedar arrows and have cut them just an inch longer than my draw. I have found that if I crawl down the string just a 1/4" it gives me similar point ons (just a bit higher) as the carbons. I learned a hard lesson when I started by cutting carbons prior to tuning. Now I only cut arrows if tuning indicates a stiffer arrow is needed. Just wanted to share what has worked for me spine-wise.

This is Good Post!

I suspect the vast majority of LWers shoot only one arrow length BECAUSE they either aim off shaft/point or shoot instinctively, and mostly train to shoot at unknown distances (e.g. 3D)...

Therefore I suspect debate about arrow length is useful for a minority. Informative IMO, but not important.

I shoot axis trad shafts out of my 50# homemade longbow. Cut to 28.5" standard weight insert and 250 points. 4 fletch 4" parabolic with wraps. Total weight is 525g. ~Wojo

jk...time and time again I have proven to myself that I shoot tighter more accurate groups when using longer length arrows and that holds true whether I'm aiming split vision, point/gap or intuitively.

There's simply no arguing that a longer arrow aims better by way of giving the archer an enhanced perspective of it's overall alignment unto the target/spot.

Much like the same reason accurate iron sighted rifles have long barrels and why Bow sights often have long extension bars.

Jinkster, I'm not arguing with your arrow logic.

Your logic would also encourage heavy mass weight bows, and long ones. Pick and choose :-)

Shawn, everybody loves "facts." They're so, um, factual-sounding :-)

I just purchased the 600 traditionally and installed 5" feathers and cut to 29" .160 points and I'm shooting a centaur carbon elite 45#@27" and I draw 27 . They are shooting perfect for me. George Stout you definitely steered me in the right direction a month ago on 600 vs 500 . Never to old to learn. Also made a dozen cedars and fletched them. They fly good but just not a he same as the carbon. Thx to Jim Curlee for the cedar shafts

I shoot .600 out of a 45#

My target limbs on my Palmer recurve make a 62" bow, 40#@28". My draw length is 28 1/2". So, that's 41# at my draw length. Mike Palmer is a friend of mine, and his target bow and his draw length is very close to mine, so to save time I called and asked which Axis Traditionals he's shooting. So, I ordered 600's cut to 30", with the standard 15 grain insert, and 100 grain tips. Perfect flight!

Excellent information here. You just have to pick which you prefer and fits your individual case. I am shooting 600's 30 1/2 " to BOP. with 200 grains up front. 48 pounds at my draw length of 29 1/2. Bare and fletched hit together where I am looking but I don't want that much weight up front. I would rather have 125. So I guess my only choice is to drop down to 700 spine.>>>----> Ken

I received the .600s and went to work installing an insert into the bare shaft. I used the provided insert which doesn't weigh hardly anything, maybe ten grains? I used a 100 grain steel adaptor and installed a 160 grain field point. I cut the shaft back 1/4" each time and stopped at 30". I got good bare shaft flight at that length and was happy, but I never seem to get rid of nock high, no matter what.

I fletched the shafts with 5" shield cut feathers and I footed the point ends with 1 3/4" 1916s. The bow shoots these arrows dead on with excellent flight. Total arrow weight, minus the fletches, is 540 grains.

I scaled the Endeavor and it pulls exactly 43#s @ 27". That may seem light, but I swear it feels like five pounds heavier. Maybe it's due to it's design. Either way, it's a hard hitting bow and I don't think it will have any problem putting a broad head thru a deer. Thanks for all the comments. It was a big help.

Try consciously changing your finger tension on release and see if the nock high changes. Sometimes that can be cause by vertical plucking.

Did you try running the nock very high? With the nock too low, the arrow can bounce off the shelf and give a false reading

Yes, I moved the nocking point up and down and no matter what, I still got some nock high. I may have done better with three under, but I mostly shoot split fingers and anchor with the middle finger at the corner of my mouth.

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