I aim. Always. If i dont have time to aim i dont shoot. I can aim pretty quick.

EVERYONE who is trying to hit a certain spot with an arrow IS AIMING. How they do it only matters to the shooter.

focus on a spot and shoot I do not intentionally aim. I (instinctive aim) :)

I just adapt to the situation at hand. If you've shot a bow well for a long time, there's no reason you can't adapt when a shot is presenting itself. That includes vertical bows, canted bows...quick shots, etc. Knowing your bow and how it works with your form negates picking and choosing just one style.

Which method did you use on the bad shot buck you needed the tracking dog for FM?

I average holding at full draw around 3 seconds.

I do neither of your definitions. I also think Instinctive shooters are aiming with their mental body had coordination based on the memory of the flight of the arrow.

I think first and foremost it takes a good hunter to kill the game. A close up deal with a Bow to get a clean angled shot and then keep your mental game together to eliminate buck fever.

Which would you rather be? A very accurate archer that is a poor hunter or a mediocre shot that can get close and has good hunting skills? I say the Hunter will eat and the target archer that cannot hunt will be hungry.

Now combine both the good shot with the hunter and you have a fella that can feed several.DO NOT FORGET THAT MANY ARE JUST LAZY AND DO NOT PUT IN THE TIME TO HUNT/SCOUT AND WORK at getting their deer/elk.

I aim 90% of the time and if its a really close shot 10 yds or under I pick a spot and shoot ...that's what works for me and puts venison in my freezer and that's what is important to me because I am a carnivore.

People who don't aim, don't hit anything. No matter what you call it..Instinctive, Gap, String Walking.....you aim. Some do it without thought (Instinctive) but it is still ingrained through good practice and the mind/body does it's aiming. But I suspect people will still argue about it until the earth is void of humans. 8^).

Melvin, you should be a writer. ROFLMAO

Reminds me of Ed Zern's "Last Word" in Field and Stream. I remember laughing myself teary eyed at some of that dudes stories.

George is right. I think there's to much BS about all this its sickening trying to reinvent the wheel. Tells ya who knows and who don't who really is a game shooter!

There's no set form while shooting live animals like there usually is target shooting to refer to. You might have to make a quick shot on a bunny or bird or big game. There's your shot and make it just a natural flow of things per say and maybe not full draw either. Who knows what ya might encounter.

Find out for yourself what it takes and go do it!

I-me

I resemble that remark FM. ))

Why does this thread sound as if it were started by Frisky....that's a bit disconcerting, lol.

Very true a lot of guys kill time here I tink.LOL

Lot's of differences between a Frisky thread and one started by Feathers. For one, Frisky is a lot smarter and doesn't write in a southern accent. He tricked Feathers into sending around a book that had an unknown sum of money tucked into the back, which Frisky quickly pocketed, less forwarding charges. With that cash, Frisky bought hisself a couple of half-decent knives (that will never get close to a fair chase deer) and paid shipping for a bow that Crookedstix was kind and naive enough to let him "borrow" but will never get back.

Another difference is, you'll never hear Frisky asking how dropping down 20 pounds to a 60# bow will effect his accuracy.

I have had a bit of an epiphany after Joe's knife thread and as an honorable southern gentleman I've taken a solemn vow to refrain from bashing him. I ask you, those that have observed the natural world firsthand(watching Nat Geo from your arses doesn't count), what member of the wild kingdom is known for its preoccupation with worthless shiny baubles and trinkets with which it decorates it's nest.....why the crow, of course. What is the crow's other obsession..cue in the theme from "The Twilight Zone" ni, ni, ni, ni....wait for it.....road kill! It is clear to me that Frisky was a crow in a former life. And while the bird is deceitful, cunning, generally associated with the underworld and universally despised by farmers, it occurs to me that even bottom-feeding scavengers perform a useful service to society...that of cleaning up the offal of the successful before it becomes a sanitation and disease issue. So, from now on Frisky gets a pass.

A chicken stroker blowing smoke up a roosters butt or Frisky and George? Take that Jawja BS over to tradbang where it is required and desired.

A chicken stroker blowing smoke up a roosters butt = Feather Merchant. Google it!

In the voice of Foghorn Leghorn. Love your posts Mr. Feather.

What is the point of this thread exactly??

This threat is epic!! Well done boyz!

I believe the point is to establish some minimum level of credibility by the posters to have an informed opinion on aiming (aim and maim) vs. point and shoot (rip and zip.)

Are you new to the Leatherwall and therefore unfamiliar with the personalities involved?

Mel, I originally thought you were a horses ass, now I realize you're an old, senile prick that never reached double digit IQ points. You have zero credibility and nothing to add to this site. Go back to tradbang where you belong. Respectfully...

Do a search Mel, you'll find them. But just start with today! Brilliant at a genius level, eh? You've been hiding your disrespect behind you're handle. It is funny in very small amounts, but being fed your BS in the amounts you choose... Just the thread title shows a lack of decorum on your part. By the way, tradbang won't let me on there either, so maybe we have found some common ground?

At first I didn't think mgerard and Feathers would get along at all. Now I realize they know each other pretty well! Maybe not that well...but mgerard's only been around a year or so...

I think Feathers just called me a jackass! Ha! I've been called way worse. And I'll take that as a compliment.

Getting insulted by Feathers and Frisky is a badge of honor among those who don't take themselves too seriously.

Aw shucks, Feathers! Is that the Rev. Brooks talking?

Anyway, this would be a boring site without some colorful characters that visit here from time to time. Those that take time to look past the joking around oughta be able to tell you know what yer talking about...much as it pains me to admit!

By the way, I'm a rip it and zip it. Aiming is what you do if you're not cross-eye dominant.

Got back from a horrible experience with a portal in the WV wilderness. Am now having mental issues. Dr says I may never talk again. I personally am an Aim and Zip kind of guy. Thanks for asking...

Sounds like Frisky's kind of gal! All the more reason to invite him down for a hunt...of sorts.

So yer sayin' Frisky has a chance?

Sorry guys, I got on this thread by mistake.

I take it that cousin Sadie haint no Jeanette Ardell.

As Sonny and Bob would say, Jaw ja mules and country boys are fading fast away. bvd

$24 for that pile of junk of a book. I asked them not to send it to me, as I knew nobody in Georia could read, let alone write. I was surprised there was nothing in it by Big Jim. Then, I get a bow I didn't ask for. Why doesn't somebody send me something I actually want? Like a nice knife? Back to the topic at hand- I'm a let er rip guy. Holding and aiming is for target sissies and tab wearers. If you want to shoot like a real man, just study Fred Bear.

Joe

That should be "Georgia."

Fred Bear was a target shooter at one time and photos of him and his target bow show he used a sight. So he was an aimer early on. But I don't recall seeing any sights on his hunting bows. Since be switched from shooting right-handed to left, he was probably left-eye dominant, too, making aiming easier. But video of him shows he didn't hold for three stinking seconds!

Maybe he was adaptive and used both techniques, depending on what the situation called for. Either way, I bet ol' Fred woulda been hell on hawgs.

Can't say the same for Frisky, for one reason alone--hawgs are too smart to end up as road kill!

'Damn! She was hot. Shame that she was my first cousin....' "When did that ever stop anyone else in that part of the country?" Signed, mgerard

One could contend that Rip and Zip is the method used by those with target panic and those who don't have the strength to hold at full draw for more than a split second. Aim and Maim could be used by those who are strong and calm, steady, and have the patience to draw on an animal when it is not looking but still occluded by some vegetation, and wait for it to move a step forward or into a better position, thus not spooking it and having only to release when the shot is right thereby not creating extra movement that you would when drawing back. I have not often drawn on an animal in the zip and rip method when it is in full shot position where it did not jump at the movement and thus ruin the shot. An although most of my shots have been rip and zip, and it my 'instinctive' method of choice, the aim and maim method comes in very handy at times when anticipating a shot that is forthcoming but not presently there (like CP shooters do). I don't prefer that, but there are situations for both methods so adaptability is a must. As for targets, I kind of combine the two methods, but I shoot best when I just pull up and release, let er rip, not thinking about aiming. It just comes natural. When I'm off target, I tend to aim for a few shots until I get the feel of the let-er-rip back. Then its back to no aim, just draw and shoot. OK, Bye again. Off into the yonder for unknown time. BTW, mgerard, you had that coming, owed you one for some past insult you unleashed.

'Didn't stop old General Sherman. Mother, grandmother, and mother of illigitimate kids all same woman.'

That must have happened early in his military career.

"William Tecumseh Sherman's early military career was a near disaster, having to be temporarily relieved of command."

'May have been why he was Lincoln's favorite physcopath.'

This was probably why...

"He returned at the Battle of Shiloh to victory and then gathered 100,000 troops destroying Atlanta and devastating Georgia in his March to the Sea. William Tecumseh Sherman was a U.S. Civil War Union Army leader known for "Sherman's March," in which he and his troops laid waste to the South."

Nice, my next hunt to AK will be after I practice longer shots for precisely that reason. This will also be my strategy for moose when and if I ever go for them, but may be less necessary since moose generally prefer more brushy cover and you can close within shorter distances than with caribou.

I'm sure I did rip and zip at least once, but it wasn't with the bow as I recall. I had just relieved myself near the campfire and wasn't paying attention as I closed the fly on my trousers. The resulting rip...from the zip, sent me bounding about the campsite and scaring the hell out of the neighboring campers as well as the drudges I was camping with. We got it all sorted out after the camp police, Andy and Barney arrived and we convinced them we weren't really intending to hurt anyone. So that being said, I suggest not to rip and zip, or even grip and rip, or whatever, because that itself can maim a fellow.

I 'made a good shot' last fall on a nice 7 pt buck, and it was a 30 seconds in the making kind of shot. It was coming straight on and 15 steps, and I drew back to shot in preparation for it to turn and stop. It stopped straight on. I let down slowly readying for another opportunity. it turned its head and its body, I drew and shot without hesitation and buried the arrow entirely, no fletch sticking out. It turned and ran off, and I followed a steady blood trail well into the night, returned with Trapper, tracked, it started raining, it crossed road, and next day, tracked, same result. Two weeks later I saw the buck limping across the open field toward me. No shot came that time. All I can deduce is that the arrow deflected on the humerous, the hard leg bone and missed vitals and went into shoulder and along the edge of ribs either inside or outside as it was a quartering to shot. I felt great about the shot, and the sound of it as it disappeared, but I was not happy with the outcome.

Fred Bear got target panic bad is why he stopped using sights and went to shooting fast. He said he developed that style to get around his tp.

Fred: "You ask if I am right- or left-handed. I am left-handed. I don’t quite know why. I shoot a bow left-handed. I throw a ball left-handed. I bat left-handed. I play golf left-handed. But I do everything else right-handed, including the shooting of a gun. And one of the interesting things in this connection is that my right eye is my master eye, although I do shoot a bow with the left hand."

Most believe even tho he wasn't sure that he actually did those things left handed because part of one of his fingers was cut off at the last joint out by a hay shear when he was a kid.

When I draw my bow by the time I reach full draw the bows where it needs to be and doesn't get moved after reaching full draw. When I am practicing I hold for a couple seconds to keep muscle tone, but on hunting shots and 3d shots I only pause for maybe a half second before release, just long enough to pull thru with my back. Its about hunting now a days for me so at shoots I have em mark me with "no score" when I pay my money. When I competed I shot sights for a while but mostly shot the same way I do now. Once OBA went from field to 2d and 3d in the 70's our shoots max range was 40 yards to keep people ready for outa state hunts. Lol no "trad" stakes just as theres none in hunting.

Thanks, GLF. That's interesting info about Fred Bear--came just in time to salvage this sorry thread. It shows that once in a while a person may actually learn something in one started by Feather Merchant!

So Fred didn't switch to shooting a bow left-handed but always shot that way? He admits he was shooting cross-dominant. And he was darn successful at it.

I put him in the rip and zip category.

Good hunters don't need to shoot long distance. Furthest I ever killed a buck, even with a rifle was about 100 yards. Most of my bow kills were under 15 yeards...longest (first deer taken in 1967) was 30 to 35. The last six deer averaged 12 yards.

As a lifelong instinctive shooter, that's really the only method I am familiar with. I understand how a gap works and I understand how a sight works. I look at what I want to hit and let brain and body do the rest.

Anyway, the late Doug Walker knew Howard Hill. Walker was a Bear rep in his early days and later owned National Bowhunter. Anyway, he was telling me once about Howard Hill. They went to an area known to have a lot of rabbits. Hill, who used a GAP system, would shoot one arrow to make a sitting bunny run and then he Wallis take the running bunny with a second arrow. In my opinion I believe Hill had to use a little instinctive shooting because I Do not believe the way a bunny runs and darts around that you Could take your eye off the target to use a gap system. We may never know but I have always said I believe Hill had the ability to use both.

And even though I am an instinctive shooter, I've often said the best method for bowhunting would probably be a blended style so you can draw off either style depending on the situation. There is no right or wrong way, although I have seen countless threads here debating and questioning instinctive shooting- whatbig is or isn't, the bottom line is that you should use the method you can master and bring game home with. That's the best system for you. Whatever works.

Frank

Sorry for the typos, My iPhone has a mind of its own.

When I am aiming my stickbow,the target is very clear and I am focusing on one tiny spot on my target. I see the arrow as a blur in my perpheral vision and I am referencing the arrow subconciously. When I used a compound, I aimed it exactly like a handgun or rifle; sight pin very much in focus, target seen but blurry and I was not even aware of peep on string that I was looking through.

Good hunters don't always hunt just deer George. If you can't shoot 30-40 yards your gonna waste money on some outa state hunts. Most of the time its not needed but sometimes it is. FM, in Ohio a 30 yard broadside shot ,under the right conditions, is still a good shot to take if ur capable. Our deer aren't so spooky and here most times when a deer jumps the string it's on a short shot that startles them. OUrs are a whole different breed than southern deer.

Speaking of caribou, I saved a Traditional Bowhunter magazine from several (2 or 3) years ago with an article about Bob Lee. He mentions shooting a couple of 'bou at distances of around 65 yards. I recall that these were running shots--the caribou, not Bob. I imagine there were others who could duplicate those shots, as well. That was back in the era BC.

I bet if you asked him, Bob would say he didn't have much time to aim. Another hunting success for rip and zip.

So I will commit: rip and zip LOL

Lol, I like em closer now that I mostly hunt natural ground blinds but outa tree stands I like around 20 yards for an easier double lung shot. My first buck back in '67 was 8 feet so at least I started out short,lol.

Gary, I never said it wasn't an opportunity elsewhere, yet still....it's a choice. If you are comfortable with those longer distances, they by all means go for them. In our areas of Pa., you are most likely surrounded by woods that can offer longer shots, but normally not so much. Guys shoot antelope from windmills and blinds at fifteen to twenty yards. I've also watched Steve Gorr take open country mule deer at about fifteen feet, and an elk not much further than that, so it can be done there also.

Again...most of the time it's a choice. I'm pretty comfortable with my accuracy well past forty yards most times. I'm usually not so comfortable with the games reaction to that shot, so I tend to err on the more sure side. If I lived out west....which I don't, I would learn more about shot opportunities and apply that to my hunting. Reading the animal is crucial as well.

Odd timing on this thread as I just recently had a battle waging within myself whether to shoot my Tsunami longbow with the same pristine lock and hold forever or until everything's been triple checked right or?...Simple Touch & Go where I concluded that...

There is this happy median called...

"A Well Controlled Shot"

It doesn't require that folks separate the physical acts of drawing their bow to anchor from the mental aspect of aiming nor does it require double checking every step of a shot sequence or?...lock and hold till the cows come home whilst you wait for that surprise release while your sight picture floats about like a jonboat on story seas...all's it requires is...

"Proficienct Execution & Slow Smooth Absolute Control"

The aiming starts when the drawing does and the sight pictures there when the anchor is.

Then I give myself about 1 second to focus on finishing off with a clean straight back release as I expand through the shot.

Out too 20yds my gap is set intuitively...beyond that?...I give the gap 1/2 second of my attention to set but?...

I have found a happy median between the two. :)

"I Do not believe the way a bunny runs and darts around that you Could take your eye off the target to use a gap system".

Thats a basic misunderstanding that a lot of people have. You do not need to take your concentration off the spot to use gapping or split vision. You ALWAYS must keep your primary vision on the spot you want to hit. You use the fuzzy images in your peripheral vision to complete the shot successfully. Years ago, I threw targets for Howard hill when he was doing demo's at Archery lane openings in Washington State and Dale Marcy had other commitments. I asked him if he saw his arrow when he shot. He replied, "If I didn't, how would I know where it was aimed at?" FM explained it very well. I would never hunt if all i saw was a dime sized patch of hair on an animal. I want to know if my arrow is aligned to the target, whats behind and to the side of the target, and a few other things before I release the arrow. I can do that without taking my concentration off the spot i want to hit, even on a flying bird, a running rabbit, or a swimming carp.

I too try to read the animal. No matter the distance I can't tell you if I'll take a shot till it presents itself. Carbou tend to be the ones that sometimes present farther shot due to lots of watching eyes and lack of cover. No one has to take longer shots ever if any animal is fine. Sometimes tho if you want larger you may have to push that 17.3 yards a bit. Even then stay within your comfort zone.

I grip it and rip it...and let the force of the universe guide the arrow to its mark.

Not to highjack but to those wanting to carbou hunt quebec, this is the last year to legally hunt them till at least 2020 and maybe much longer.

Yep, i knew an aim and maim guy once who went so far as to stick tape on his top limb and wrote out his shot sequence so he wouldnt forget anything in the heat of the moment.

Just about EVERY SHOT that I take in practice is aimed; by which I mean that I take the time to make sure that my anchor is plumb below my eyeball and the point of my arrow is plumb below the spot that I want to hit.

If you check - often enough - to confirm that you have those two items correct, you will soon find that it's not strictly necessary; especially at short range.

So eventually it becomes a simple matter of hand-eye coordination - also pronounced "Instinctive".

Of course, doing it this way allows you to aim finer than you would if you just trust to hand-eye coordination alone, so that's what I do when I have time for it (and it doesn't take long). Running bunnies, not so much!

But if you can check your accuracy before the shot... and it wouldn't cost you the shot opportunity... then why WOULDN'T you draw as fine a bead as you can????

Time to play the game....

Arrow

Shotgun

Scalpel

One o' these kids is not like the others!

Referring to Mr. Hatfield's experience with Howard Hill. No matter what some experts may say, it is totally possible to have the arrow aimed as one reaches anchor and have an accurate nearly instant release on virtually any target whether it is moving or standing. It just takes consistent repetition to train the eyes. This slow draw and not aiming until everything else is in place is target shooting stuff, then claiming with all that slow mo shooting that one does not see the arrow. I met a woman that was face blind, she could not see people faces. A very rare condition, I do not believe that there are that many 'arrow blind' archers, that would also be a very rare condition.

Dean, there are a lot of face blind men. Just go into a bar at closing and watch who they leave with...

You talkin about me again Trapper? I've never went home with an ugly woman, but i sure woke up with a few (joke)

LOL - Coyote ugly... :)

Dave you judge that by ur reaction when you wake up n see whos on ur arm. If you get the sudden urge to chew ur arm off so ya don't have to wake em up to leave you know you drank yourself into an attack of face blindness.

If you look you can see the tip of Fred's finger missing. I believe that's why he was shooting a Joe left handed. My theory has always been he was right eye dominant which is why he canted his bow so much.

Dick Mauch told me a pretty funny story about Fred's target panic days.

Anyway, Fred was great. He put archery in the map.

Frank

That photo of Fred and I was around 1978.

Feathers, yer full of it. Again. Ezra Brooks, that is. Only thing you knocked out mighta been a charging Jawja hawg with your Black Widda after you ran outta arras.

An' you failed to describe yore shootin' teck-neek today...shoot and scoot or your standard flail and bail?

(I don't normally talk or write this way but it seems it's the only way anyone can communicate with Feathers.)

I never go to bars anymore. There are always smoking women in them that think I am cute. I am scared to death of any woman that could be that desperate.

Purveyor of plumage extraordinaire LOL

Now, now, Feathers. I think you misunderstood AspirinBuster. We don't need nobody shooting nobody. I think what he meant was he saw Mr. Bear take a shot of joe, as in coffee. With his left hand. Is all.

AB left us hanging with that remark about a funny story, though, didn't he? Maybe it had something to do with Fred's grip, rip and zip shooting technique.

Aim and Zip!

Feathers, yer about as sharp as a bag of fleece! Anyone talking about this state and it's connection with sheep would refer to it as Ewe-taw.

Speaking of sheep, we use them here to graze down areas of dense grass and shrub to create fuel breaks and hopefully slow down advancing forest and range fires.

Next time you pull on your wooley hunting shirt and britches, you might want to thank a Ewe-taw sheep!

Aim, rip, zip and maim. lol

I like to walk the string then rip and zip.

I like to walk the string then rip and zip.

dean, I don't like women who smoke either. ;)

"No matter what some experts may say, it is totally possible to have the arrow aimed as one reaches anchor and have an accurate nearly instant release on virtually any target whether it is moving or standing. It just takes consistent repetition to train the eyes. "

AND THE HANDS.

Sorry if I'm about to hi-jack a perfectly silly thread, but....

If you check your anchor on each (slow, deliberate) shot BEFORE you settle into it, and if you hold that anchor for a few beats (perhaps while looking at your arrow to make sure that the point is (or is still) on the mark), you will become "strongest" in that precise anchor position... which means that when you draw fluidly, the path of least resistance leads to exactly one small, well-defined anchor point.

And yes, once your eye and your anchor are precisely aligned, "all you have to do" is point your bow-hand at the mark.

I heard some guys callin' each other "brah" the other day! That's messed up. I bet even Frisky doesn't say that when he's trying to talk his way out of a jam. Which is probably often.

Feathers, on the other hand, uses it all the time. Especially when he's lost out hawg huntin' and he's braying for help.

I say it's a non-traditional term and should be banned from Leatherwall...along with discussions of compounds, half-compounds, and x-bows. And atlatls.

Ban brahs...

Ya, TrapperK. Those same guys that use illicit, not-to-be-mentioned equipment (see my previous post) probably use "that" word alot, too.

I agree-- "Ban the brahs!"

Well, as the famous golf instructor Butch Harman says, "If you aim at nothing, you'll hit it every time."

Butch Harman, famous for his well-known advice on hitting a golf ball--"grip it and rip it?"

Actually, that should be Butch Harmon.

"Grip it and rip it" is more closely associated with big hitter John Daly. Now, his "Grip it and sip it" philosophy is something Feathers would agree with!

Speaking of sheep ,there's a new use these days...........wool!

FeM, your dog drinks more than I do... ;)

LOL! But, no dog holds his licker that Trapper...

Looks like he's got a beer buzz on -

HUH??? Bite your licker, FeM! That ain't no setter! The Horror of that statement! Ain't you ever seen a Swamp Collie before? Trapper wouldn't know a fight if he was in it. But once he gets in one, I sure hope he realizes it and whips whoever dog starts it.

so why the title...inferring Maiming of game? Your title had three derogatory words and one positive related to shooting of game. Ripping, Zipping, Maiming....and then Aiming. Trying to be cute?

I instinctive shot for 20+ years....and considered it an aiming method....moving into fixed crawl which is also an aiming method. The process is different but the goal is same...to hit a specific spot on the animal you are hunting.

keep em sharp,

ron herman

Jeez, Shorthair...if you have any at all. We're 139 posts in, trying to get it either sorted out or have some fun with word play, or something... and you get all indignant with Feathers. Wow.

You missed your chance to contribute something useful way earlier in the thread. Lighten up!

I had a huge Rot tear apart my lab Kayak twice. The first time he had him pinned upside down between the house and porch steps. Piece of crap dog would not let go when I reached my arm around under his neck and choke held him punching the top of his head and neck. He never even felt it. He only let go when the owner whistled. Would have killed my dog if not so. Its a wonder I didn't get torn up too. I wanted to kill that dog and would have if legal. The second time I was not around, and Kayak wound up with stitches in his belly. Owner got rid of Rot, and it subsequently tore apart someone's springer, and Rot was then put down. Yay!

Now, what about that setter comment ;) ???

Feathers had no use for that wool coat down there in Georgia. Never gets cold enough to kill a chigger or mosquito. So he sent it to me--a nice dressy Pendleton!

I finally got tired of being broke and sleeping in the snow so wore it to a job interview. Danged if I didn't get the job!

One of these days I'll figure out a way to get even with ya, Feathers.

Have had a lot of people ask us if our guys are Irish Setters... we just shake our heads... Really? :0 ;) They don't look anything like them... lol... Irish setters are dumb by comparison - no offense to your Sam Feathers, but it's true. Goldens are considered the 5th smartest dog...in a long list, with Aussi Shephards to be tops on the list I believe. Poodles not far behind #1. I know setters are good dogs though. They don't have to be the smartest dogs to be good dogs. I just happen to prefer goldens and labs for their looks and intelligence, calmness, and durability. They are not psycho dogs - never even chewed a shoe, nothing at all from puppies. NO better dogs than retrievers IMO - sorry to remain off topic. I already answered the shot method question long ago...

"A narrow Bony Head"... I'll burn a hole through you for that remark, Dude! hehehehe... You lived in the city??? hahahaha. Which one, Fatlanta? 8^P3 (JK)

Funny, we are always saying how big and gushy Trap's head is. He has a huge sagittal crest (lump of knowledge) but his head is huge, just a long big nose that makes it look narrow. Any dog is prone to being fat if you don't care enough to feed them properly, ie. giving them table scraps human food and beer n brats. I've seen a lot of fat goldens lately actually. Most every dog I see is overweight really. Trapper's brother was fat as a hog at just over 1 year. These people obviously don't care about how long the poor guy lives. Trap gets one cup Nutro lamb and rice 2x per day dry, sometimes (maybe once every two weeks) with some venison I froze for them when butchering, cooked up in water. He is always hungry, but at that he is close to 95# and vet wants him to be 85#. Its very tough to get him under 90. He always wants to eat...anything. Dead mowed grass clumps off the lawn even. And one thing that I'll not mention here, that got him a good ass whuppin. So in that regard, he is definitely boneheaded. He does what he durn well wants to and is getting crafty about doing it while you aren't looking. He is a very smart dog, and comes up with new surprises weekly. He has one other brother that weights 118# too. Big line of goldens.

Dang dog can catch his own dinner. Lotsa winter kill layin' around--what yer mutt don't eat he can roll in!

Oh--I thought you were talking about your new pup and member of your household! Sorry about that misunderstanding.

Still, I hain't cooking no mutton fer nobody! Fresh mutton smells just like the winter-killed deer layin' around.

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