Recently I've noticed a few threads with folks having a hard time shooting this style of bows. What I have found is that these bows are critical of spine much more so than bows cut closer to center. This is common sense however it took me awhile to figure it out so maybe I'm not the only one. Spend some time working with arrows and don't be afraid to drop much lower than you think you need. Secondly if you have a bad release that needs work you will find out quickly. At first I was frustrated beyond belief but now my release is better than ever and this will transfer to any bow I shoot. Thirdly the grip takes some getting used to stick with it and you will be surprised how much you like it. Give your hill bow at least 2000 well tuned well released shots before you make up your mind. 100 shots won't even get you to first base but I would bet most make up their mind before they hit that number. These bows are accurate and efficient don't convince yourself it's subpar just to justify your shortcomings I know I have been guilty of that in the past with lots of bows.
Good to know. Got a long bow ordered now. Really hoping I can be as accurate as I am with a center cut recurve. Got all summer to master it. I shoot almost daily now.
I used to think that I liked recurve (pistol) grips but some fit and some don't. Looking for the perfect grip can be an expensive and frustrating proposition. After learning to shoot a straight gripped Hill style longbow I like those grips better than any recurve style grip and it is not picky about how you hold it and the narrow, thick limbs make torquing the bow very difficult to do.
Well stated DK. I would agree on your three points and they would be the things I dealt with as I became familiar with my first Hill Style Bow. First I dealt with the grip issue and getting comfortably consistent was the goal and to reach it I shot many 100s of blank bale arrows. I think the release came along simultaneously with the grip. Once I had these down I had a good consistent form and shot cycle - the only thing I might add as a forth issue would be developing a good consistent slight cant.
From there I started working on the spine issue and yes, I had to dip to the lowest spines arrows in my collection. I'm in the process of building a nice set of wood arrows now that I have the tune.
This all took about a year and it's been a fun trip that continues to this day. I've come to enjoy the ASL/ Hill Style bow as much if not more as any of my other types. Big fun!
I am glad you found your way to success and pleasure. Folks coming from recurves sometimes do have trouble adapting from recurves to American traditional longbows.
Newcomers often find them easy to shoot. I have several light ones from various makers with properly matched arrows and have helped a great many archers get started.
As mentioned these bows need more flexible arrows, lighter spine, because they have narrow arrow shelves or even none at all. But with such arrows they are not particularly sensitive so long a the spine is within the right ball park. Your recurve arrows will likely not be a suitable match.
It is natural to cant these bows to get the upper limb out of your line of sight. They do not have big sight windows like a recurve.
And you need to allow the more upright grips to nestle in your palm, not up in the web of your thumbs.
Other than that they are easy and pleasant to shoot for most people. That is why we love them so, for the simple fun of it.- lbg
They may be more critical of spine with carbons and fat aluminums, but not so much with wood and narrow aluminums. I shoot 55# 27" bop with 160 grain points out four bows that range from 51 to 58 pounds at my draw. Out of one that is 50@ 26", arrows that are 3/8" outside of center 45-50s with 145 heads shoot best. 40-45s with 145 125 up front are too sensitive to a hot release from that same bow. If a wood arrow is a little stiff, it may fly to the left a little,from left hand shooting, but can fly perfect. That little bit of adjustment comes easy after a couple of shots with a slight bit more cant.
I shoot wood arrows from 5-15# stiff over spine. Only adjustment is a little point weight of 25 gr. Wood arrows are very forgiving. I find that guys who shoot with a dead static release, actually let the string off their fingers as much as 1" in front of their anchor, resulting in a less poundage bow than they think they're shooting. Guys with a dynamic release that has the fingers opening as the hand moves backwards can shoot stiffer arrows.
Nate, what you say makes some sense. With your information and Daves, it really shows why we say with wood arrows, the ASL can tolerate a wide range of spine; good, bad, or indifferent. Shick
Well?...here's some things I think I've learned...
1. While I agree that the closer a riser is cut too center the easier it will be to formulate an arrow configuration that will tune and shoot well?...I believe what makes ASL/HH type bows so accommodating to a wide range of arrow spines is the extremely light mass weight of the bow itself which in turn?...
When the archer dumps the string there is a very brief pulse of energy against the risers strike plate as the arrow begins it's "First Flex" of the archers parody of oscillations where it is my belief that initial pulse of energy?...moves the very lithe bow ever so slightly out of the way of the arrows path and the further BEFORE center the riser is cut?...the more amplified this scenario will play out...especially with stiffer arrow spines until such time our ears tell us the arrow is in fact clacking off the riser which is why we enjoy a wide variety of spine values be it arrows that are cut a bit longer and 15#'s stiffer with heavy points or?...slightly lighter spined than the bows DW while cut shorter with light points.
Proof?...if the bow were a dead-in-the-hand BB rig w/ a 5#+ riser that just sat there at-the-shot?...that sort of weak/stiff spine range would be cut by at least 80% and why?...because the 4X's heavier bow doesn't move....making the ASL/HH type bows far more forgiving of spine variance.
2. I've come to realize that when I address any particular style of bow?...I have two choices of how to execute with it...
A. I can listen to dozens of opinions on the net of "How They Do It" or?...
B. I can listen too the bow where as such?...
3. When I gripped my Misty Dawns straight grip with all fingers fully wrapped and firmly grasping the grip?...that's when I felt the teeth rattling shock other speak of with an ASL/HH style bow but when I gripped it how I've gripped such light longbows all my life?....
"Like Holding A Bird...Tight Enough That It Won't Fly Away But?...Loose Enough That It Can Still Breath Freely"
it shot like a "Shock-Free Dream"...(just like all the others)
4. With these sort of bows?...if I stop and hold even briefly at anchor?...it's like my internal computer just suffered a hard shut-down where I just became utterly and completely disconnected with the shot...my aiming?...is finished just before I hit anchor and when I do?...it's gone.
and when I shoot ASl/HH type or any light, lithe longbows?...that's how I enjoy shooting them and is how I shoot them best.
Here's a quick vid I did on my wife's Birthday (05/07) and was the only 4 arrows I loosed that day...on a short 8yd-18yd walk-back where the arrows ranged in spine from 40#s-55#'s and in weight from 435grs-512grs with no two the same...and I love shooting like this.
yep...that's what I learned...rock on my Brothers! ;)
I have 5 howard hill bows ranging from 50 to 65# , they all shoot 2018 and 2117 aluminum arrows quite well, also wood or bamboo between 50 to 65# , you can mix them up and can't see the difference, I fell they are a very forgiving bow
Good form can cover a multitude of tuning sins...poor form will magnify every one of them. Schulz's videos are a "recipe" for how to succeed at that style of shooting. If you notice he focuses on form and says that you need to practice that form for weeks before ever trying to aim at anything. That tells me that form is the primary ingredient in his recipe. Just like any cooking recipe, if you leave out, or shortcut the ingredients, particularly the primary ingredient, you will be disappointed in your outcome. His teachings do not conform with the current expectation of "instant gratification", or the idea that someone can read and research something on the internet and become an expert. To become good at his shooting style there is no other way but to do it like he tells you to. There are lots of enjoyable shooting styles. I like the Hill style, but there are times when it is not the best style for the shot situation. I also like to shoot what I call "Comanche style" with short bows and pinch grips, but that is also not applicable to all shot situations. Imagine doing that on an Olympic target range?
When one considers how many different types of shots that can be taken with a longbow the term Hill style can looked fairly random to a static target shooter. Example, good friend of mine developed a strange lean way forward open shoulder thing. He thought that he was doing a sneaky swing draw, in reality it was a very shoulder dependent round house draw. I gave him a 51 pound Big River last month. I noticed the flaw, he was underdrawing about two inches. I showed him what he was doing and he said that he was doing that at all. We needed a witness, my wife agreed with me, so we went through some form correction. he went home and shot for three hours and went back to his own wrong thing. He hurt his shoulder doing it. Another example, me sitting on the edge of a cut bank of Mill Creek, watching walleyes in the clear stream. A small 8 pointer was coming, I dug my heels into the dirt and slid part way down the bank to hide in the edge brush. As the deer approached it turned and offered a shot. I hand no room to swing draw and did not have very trust worthy footing to do a rotational draw. I bought my bow up undrawn right in front of my face with my wrist strap of my shooting glove even with my anchor point. I did a back leaning poke through the sticks push draw and finishing with about a 4 inch draw to anchor, an easy 6 yard shot. In the same situation Howard Hill could have done it no different. Was it Hill style or not? A spread draw can be almost a 50/50 deal with very little rise, or even an odd angled 90/10 like this shot, but the elements of the Hill form are still present in that all important last few inches of draw. While everyone worries about that swing, the grip the bent bow arm the most, and then complain about the accuracy. The accuracy is accomplished during the last few inches of draw, the aim, the anchor and the follow through.
"Referring to what Jinks said about the bow moving. Watch video. https://youtu.be/Ivb6RWJVGh4"
That's a very good example of it and as performed by who I understand is a master of the art.
But speaking of "Art"?...in the practice of this form of archery?...there's little doubt in my mind that for the uninitiated folks starting as a fresh canvas?...text book Hill/Shulz Swing Draw is the way to go with these classic longbows where with enough ingrained practice?...they too can paint their own Sistine Chapels but then?...you have your Graffiti experts out there (like me) who just roll better putting their own personal flair on things!
I completely agree with DKincaid. Any bow that is less then center shot is more critical of arrow spine. You can shoot a range of spines from ANY bow, selfbow, longbow, recurve, compound, makes absolutely no difference. And the closer to or more past center the sight window is designed, the wider the range of spines you can shoot.
Canting a longbow, {Hiil. English. American, doesn't matter) isn't neccessary if you don't want to, so don't think you have to. I don't even cant straight sided selfbws unless it's for clearance reasons. And nothing has less of a sight window then they do. Most folks on here say they on't use the sight window any way. Meaning that they see the trget and arrow OUTSIDE the string rather than INSIDE the string between the string and the sight window {looking through the bow window as Elmer called it). That being the case, the sight window/upper limb relationship is COMPLETELY irrelevant other than for purposes of spine determination.
Thes bows don't HAVE to shot in the swing draw method if you don't want to shoot them that way. The on'y thing signifcantly different about a "Hill" style bow and any other American flatbow/longbow whatever you want to call it design is the grip profile.
If you control your bow, and your shot sequence, you should be able to shoot the shot that will be the most effective in the situation at hand. Whther that meand holding at full draw for 5 seconds, or shooting as soon as you touch anchor, or releasing in line.
As John said "Tilting the head and varying the cant of the bow." Two things about that. In a normal shot that aids in aiming, also, when shooting a bow straight up and down, many times people jam their neck to match the facial structure to the vertical string. That is not a good thing for the neck. I put my neck through hell with my target bows, I used an anchor similar to Vic Berger.
But dean you don't do that at all if you draw the string to your anchor/face and don't move your face to the string. The less movement period when drawing to anchor the better off you are. Whether it's your head, bow arm, or anything else. Which by the way is just as easily fouled up one way (canting or not) as it is the other and usually caused by being overbowed.
I have learned another thing. Those little 'C' clips that are suppose to hold pins in place like the ones on my new front door plunger, I know why a technician called them 'Jesus' clips. Beside the temptation to use nasty language, I think those go off to 'C' clip heaven when they flip off the needle nose. I also found that searching for those things can get your wrist messed up while crawling around looking for them. There will be no right hand shooting done by me for a while. I am typing one handed. You need a good functioning wrist to heel a longbow.
Frank, I anchor planting all three fingers and my thumb against my cheek. When one is standing with no bow and one turns one's head to look to the left or right in line with the the shoulder, the head does a natural cant, some tilt their head more than this when they shoot Hill style, sometimes I do as well, when shooting in close or down hill. This photo came with a writing from a chiropractor that talked of the dorsal/cervical joint problems of Howard and his two business partners. A super chiropractor that I had at the time, completely agreed with that. i have talked to Ted Ekin, many times as well concerning this, he is one of two with neck issues in the photo.
while registering folks for the Texas longbow championship I tri d to take notice of the bows I saw. A rough estimate in my head showed that out of 165 shooters I saw maybe 15 hill style bows. While these bows are great there is a learning curve for a lot of folks it seems. As far as spine I find any of my bows can shoot 20# range of spines but shoot best when you find the proper spine. Any center shot or close to it bow is more tolerant of spine variations.
In Pope's book he refers to shooting a bow with a bow holding device, today we would call it a shooting machine. He observed that a bow clamped solid will not shoot as consistent as a hand held bow. In the early 70s we built a very good shooting machine. At first we used a Wilson strap tab, but when the mechanical releases came out we got one of those. In every case my target bows could stack arrows tight, but my Hill longbows shot worse than what I could do by hand. Although John talked of the bow hand not moving, a little motion as seen in the PF video is unavoidable and within limits can be a good thing.
I went from compounds to recurves when I made the switch. Trying to stay as close to my compound roots as I could and was never satisfied. Seven asl's later and one on the way I just cannot imagine shooting any thing else. Coming back to anchor and not leaning into the string (creep) was a big break through in my accuracy. For me I find that a tab works better. I also purchased a book Shooting The Stick Bow in 2009 that has been by my night stand and I reference it often. I shoot almost daily and really enjoy wood arrows.
I think the slightly bent bow arm gives one a stronger shot because the arm is actively pushing the bow away and the arm strength becomes part of the bow's power. It may also help with pulling power. With the bent bow arm the arm from the bow shoulder to the elbow is more in line with pulling power. With the straight arm the arm needs to be off set from the power line from shoulder to bow to the pulling draw arm. The arm muscles are very strong while some of the shoulder muscles not so much. If you can imagine picking a heavy bucket up at arms length or close the body, the swing draw with the bow arm actively engaged in pushing the bow, the left hand side is very strong. then add the drawing side is slightly behind the raising so the bow comes up to level while the draw hand still has a few inches to go, the stronger drawing muscles automatically come into play, with no need for artificially tightening the muscles between the shoulder blades. I have lots of videos where the shooter is claiming to squeeze the shoulder blades and artificially has the draw hand come back after the shot, while it is plain to see that the fingers flopped in front of the anchor point at release. That is a situation where the back power failed. If you think of alignment in one angle. the bent bow arm offsets the distance from the should line to the anchor point. The anchor point will always be outside of the power line by a few inches, bending the bow arm sets the bow to match that distance while allowing the elbow to elbow alignment to match the power line. With Hill form I could shoot a 90 plus pound bow all day. With my target form I would struggle with a 60 pound bow. Eventually, I became strong enough that i could push draw a 150 bow while my fingers were planted at anchor. I would not recommend that, it puts the bow arm elbow through a lot of stress, I gave myself a pretty awful case of tennis elbow doing that once.
We all throw the term "Ingraining" around like a bag of skittles but we always seem to relate it to "Form" where my question is...
"If one can ingrain form?...Why can't one ingrain FEEL?"
Because to be honest?...it seems that's the best way I shoot a bow...
"Intuitively"
I've had some amazing (and very enjoyable) sessions...
"Shooting By Feel"
and I contend that "My Sense Of Feel"?...was deeply...
"Ingrained"
When I got out of the USMC and went to live with my 2 uncles (then to support my aging grandmother)?...one of our favorite weekend past-times was to grab our Bear Recurves and drive 30 minutes too "The Sandpits"...we'd take empty milk jugs and place them at ridiculous distances...80-100yds...shooting from one mountain of sand too the other...(it was the perfect spot actually)...and after just a few warm-up shots getting ourselves dialed in?...it was crazy how close our misses were and we'd hoot & hollar on "The Hits"! and be like....
Didja See That!!! :) :) :)
We knew nothing of form...we had no "shot sequence".....there was no "internet"...yet there we were...with even the poor shots coming within 3' of that jug and a real bad one would be maybe 5' away from it...at 80-100yds.
For Hill style bows I usually shot a Craig Ekin bow, cut .125" from center. I liked a limb tip that was about 3/8" to a 1/4" wide with tip wedges. The close to center riser was key for me on arrow flight. I also used 160 grain f.p.'s and broadheads but usually not a 3/1 ratio head. I also used a f.f. string with padded loops. Depending on the weight I was shooting it might be up to 20 strands, especially on bows over 80lbs. Kelly Peterson back in the day use to make arrows for me, that were 5.5" 4 fletch evenly spaced around the shaft. Don't know how he did it maybe 180 deg apart from each other but irregardless the fletch was very evenly spaced around the arrow and they flew like the proverbial darts.
I also learned through the years that the longer the bow the lower the b.h. I could get away with, and that combined with f.f. string, 1/8" from center, and the limb style I liked made for a very very forgiving bow with arrow spine and my release. I also tuned my bow and arrows through paper which was a pain and at close range. So what I started doing is getting about 3-5 yds back from a target butt and shooting into it one arrow at a time. I would look at which way the arrow hit and that would help me cypher out what to do with the bow to tune the arrows to it.
Now some of the excellent longbows I have owned throughout the years are: Hamilton Scorpion, Skookum's, Elburg Falcon and Cheorkee and the Tradition, of course Ekin bows(mostly hunting bows), American Longbows by Schultz and Pete George, Ron Maulding Big Horn's especially his heat tempered bamboo with a lead slug in the handle and his Tamarrack bows(superb), 66" Rocky Miller longbows, and the original North Star longbows. Probably many more I am forgetting but mostly truth be told Craig Ekin bows. Had 26 of them at one time back in the mid 80's. Oh yea Ted Kramer bows. Craig Ekin had a bowyer working for him for years I think whose first name was Ted but I can't remember his last name that made a bunch of my bows in the mid 80's. Matter of fact he suggested the limb design I went to with most of my Hill style bows. Ok that's it. thanks
"I used to think that I liked recurve (pistol) grips but some fit and some don't. "
+1. Back in the 90s it was common for shooters to replace the grips on their recurves or compounds right out of the box. The last thing I expected to find was that those stupid simple bows of the past had it right also along. Sometimes progress takes decades to work itself out of the system.
"I used to think that I liked recurve (pistol) grips but some fit and some don't. "
+1. Back in the 90s it was common for shooters to replace the grips on their recurves or compounds right out of the box. The last thing I expected to find was that those stupid simple bows of the past had it right also along. Sometimes progress takes decades to work itself out of the system.
"While these bows are great there is a learning curve for a lot of folks it seems."
It may be changing because HH style bows are now in. But for the longest time, I think people just didn't want to take on the "extra challenge" of such simple bows. People falsely assume that all the extras make shooting particular frankenbows easier. Even if that is true, I always ask myself how many points are in some change. A 1 point difference if you are regularly in contention at serious matches, would be huge. Is that 10 pieces of bizarre equipment, or what? It isn't worth squat in the field, not one point's worth. But it depends on specifics, either way. And those are largely missing.
One reason all the cheater LBs got grandfathered into the class is just to make people who used/made them happy. It really isn't a mater of whether they were better or not. A fairly large number of the people buying those bows, have them because they are shorter. That is a huge factor in a lot of people's minds, but it isn't guaranteed to 3D the heck out of foam. Just as one example.
Some of my HH bows are very sensitive to spine others aren't. The whole thing can be demystified by just having a kit of spine ranges to select from. I was probably shooting for 40 or more years before I got my spine tester set together. Should have been the first thing I did.
Dean is correct, both Ted Kramer and Tim Meigs contracted to build bows for Craig. Ted from 1977-1982 Tim from 1977-1985. John Schulz made the first half of the commemorative bows and Tim Meigs the later half of the 75 bows.
Great Thread DKincaid and I agree with you on the 2000 arrow point you made. Its been fun but there is a learning curve to them, nothing terrible just different BUT fun at the same time!!
I agree also on the center shot/spine issue....Im not good enough to see this wide range of spine forgiveness that some guys claim.....its a narrow range for me BUT I haven't jumped into the wood arrow side of things either and not sure I want to LOL
yes, ingraining the form takes dedicated practice of thousands of shots. I think the Hill style is more dependant on feel and muscle memory to make those quick thinking hunting shots accurately.
I seem to remember a fellow names Tom that helped Craig in the shop in the late 80s and early 90s or so. After the Tim Meigs, Kramer, Schulz period.
I love shooting long/really long shots. It seems to take the pressure off to shoot at something that in your mind is unrealistic to hit. When the pressure is off, our minds and hand/eye coordination does better. I can work on form very well at 60-80 yard shots. Like blank bale or blind bale, but my eyes are open, getting fed visual stimuli and I have to hold form for a couple of seconds while the arrow is in the air....and that re-enforces good form. It amazes me how many arrows start dropping into a 5' area on the ground at 80 yards.
Bowlim , I am in the same place on spine testing. Been at this since 67 and Just built me a spine tester a couple of weeks ago. What an eye opener. I was tuning a dual shelf bow with about 1/4" of offset.
This is some old video of Bill Bagwell and I at bear camp many years ago. Click on "shooting form 2" and watch me shoot Bills 80# Tim Meigs Hill style bow. I used a "dead" release keeping my hand against my face. 80# was easy for me in those days because I practiced with 100 to 120# bows
What Nate stated over two years ago ASL shooters should take seriously. I think many of the problems folks have with shooting Hill style is that they are shooting small foam targets on the ground at too close a range for too long. Getting out and taking a bunch of long arching lob shots, puts a power line and feel into the game that is not that constantly just focusing on form with a mechanical step by step approach. Somewhere in the process you just gotta set yourself free and let the bird fly. I have seen a number of longbow shooters doing nothing more than working on close range form for years, back them up to 25 yards where arch of the arrow starts showing up and they blow up.
Oh yes, what I have learned, a Hill style longbow does not need to be very center shot to work perfectly. Considering my wife's shattered bone in her left forearm, I find myself wishing that she should have a duo shooter similar to the ones I use just in case all of shallow metal holding the bones together causes her problems down the road.
Yes, well very close to center, a Jerry Hill and a Big River. Gave that Big River to a friend. Right now I have part of a Texas hog and half of an axis deer in my freezer shot with bow and another half of a fallow deer shot with another bow that I gave him. Talk about getting paid, I also get a bit of all of the whitetails he has shot with it. What goes around comes around. Personally I think a longbow likes to have the arrow go around something, I do not believe that past center, like some ilf bows, would point very well with Hill style form..
My Sunset Hill does well with a stiff arrow. I only shoot wood, cedar and spruce, which to me seems a forgiving choice.
I used to shoot recurves, long ago, but after having switched to a Hill-style longbow I’ve never looked back. The way these bows are meant to be shot makes them wonderfully versatile.
I aim the arrow, not the bow. A stiff arrow doesn't flex as much so has less paradox to recover from and so will fly a little left out of a rh bow. But the arrow will fly the line it's pointed on. And since it's flying a little left, my bow is out of my sight picture.
As Dean hinted, a longbow needs a riser for the arrow to push against and a stiffer arrow helps push the bow out of the way if the bow is held in the properly relaxed grip and the wrist and elbow are bent sufficiently. I think this is one reason a hand held longbow shoots tighter than a machine shot longbow
Yes, I built a pretty good shooting shooting machine in the 70s. My target bows could blow up arrow at twenty years, but my longbows were more accurate when i shot them by hand. I couldn't pad it out enough and still keep the bow from flopping out of control. the other big one, The best spine when in a shooting machine is not the best spine for hand held. The human hand is an amazing thing it can hold a little bird and not injure it or let it fly away, even if that little bird has 90 pounds of force built into it. A clamp cannot do that.
One other thing that I have learned but don't quite have the mechanical math in my head straight. Take a wood arrows full length, try any number of spines you want, you find little things will make a big difference, even on shafts that are way over spine. then make some net length wood arrows, you find that a variety of spines with a variety of head weights still shoot good out of an outside of center ASL when shot Hill style with a bird in the hand grip. There has to be a proper explanation of why a true net length arrow has more forgiveness out of a concenter shot ASL, but the normal numbers do not apply to the equation.
Gun magazines publish group sizes for handguns shot from a machine. I have never owned, or at least kept, any handgun that would not shoot groups half as big when shot by hand and eye from a rest. Archery is also best evaluated by hand and eye; that is all that matters. - lbg
On the gun front, machine rests are nice as they remove human error and therefore let a person know of a guns potential. Nobody (apart from people shooting benchrest in an unlimited class) shoots that way, of course, but it's nice to know. In this regard the longbow seems fundamentally different in that it shoots less accurately from a machine rest, something I was unaware of yet which speaks volumes with regard to the "organic" nature of the design.
