A few weeks ago I took an afternoon to cut ,carve , & shape antler tip for my hickory flatbow. Yesterday was the first time i strung it up and pulled it back.. I never heard POP but when I went to unsting it I notoced Both antler tip popped off but was held in place by the tight string.

Any tips, suggestions, and glue recommendations?

i had a bowyer tell me that when he installs antler tips he puts small indentations, like dimples, in the back. he does this with a drill bit. these indentations help with adhesion he claims.

I am not a bowyer but it seems that if both of yours fell off, there was an issue with the prep or the glue itself?

Many antler tips and handle overlays wont stay on as antler expands and contracts with humidity and temperature changes . Doesn't matter which glue you use there is a good chance it will happen . Lots of bowyers still use them but they have to replace tips from time to time, not dependable for a hunting trip . Try horn it works great.

With antler or bone you have to back fill the over lay with super glue. It will soak down in the porous inside. Keep backfilling it until it won take anymore. Then flip the overlay over and gently sand it smooth. Now glue it on, it wont come off. If you don't do this the antler sucks up 90% of your glue and they pop right off.

What kind of epoxy did you use? I use only Smooth On EA40, and cure it with the heat of a shop light placed several inches away, with a towel loosely covering everything to hold the heat... for 4-5 hours. Be sure to leave a few openings, especially one near the top, so it doesn't get too hot.

The pieces should first be perfectly flattened and mated, and then lightly grooved or otherwise roughed up to ensure the joint isn't starved of glue when clamped.

There's no need to degrease it if it is glued up immediately following your preparation, so long as you didn't finger it up afterwards. Touching the gluing surface can introduce body oils, dirt, or other contaminants.

When clamping, I generally use two spring clamps, placed to apply equal overall pressure. Using one clamp as you did, I'd be concerned with the antler being clamped more tightly at one end than the other. Spring clamps maintain a more even pressure during heating and cooling.

Don't use old glue.

Do be sure to mix it more than adequately.

Don't use epoxy that cures rapidly like 5 minute or 10 minute epoxy. It isn't as strong.

You didn't indicate what glue you used?

Bob

I agree with Pearl Drums. Not because I'm a bowyer, but because antler is indeed porous and soaks up glue.

mucilage. At least it tastes good. Or was that paste glue? Can't remember. LOL

Yes, do what Pearl Drums said and size it before your final sanding/grooving. I've done it without sizing, while avoiding using the porous, softer antler center and they've held fine.

For instance, in that picture where you have the chunk of antler clamped to the tip? I wouldn't have used the piece like that, Instead, I would have continued to grind a good deal more off of the underside of the antler, aiming to remove the porous core in the process. The outer portion of the antler is not only harder and more durable, and doesn't require soaking, it looks better when finished... especially if some of the original surface remains... imo.

Not all antler pieces have as much, or any, of the porous center like that. The farther you move out the antler, the more solid it becomes.

For antler I use Gorilla Glue white.It expands into the porous surface.

I was going to say what PEARL DRUMS said. You have to fill the porous material. Then epoxy. Hope it didn't break your antler tips. Good job of shaping them. Good luck. >>>----> Ken

I used a 5 minute epoxy. I thought it would hold.. I also cleaned both gluing sufaces with mineral spirits minutes b4 gluing and i scaped the wood witj a fine serrated knife and cut a grooves in the antler for increased surface area.

Mineral spirits, not good. Acetone?or denatured alcohol. 30 minute epoxy is stronger. The longer the cure time, the stronger. JF

Mineral spirits is too oily. No need to cut those grooves. You can do a lot better than 5 min epoxy.

Denatured alcohol is best for degreasing, if necessary. Even though it evaporates quickly, I still give it a half hour or more before glue up.

Ok so would 91% rubbing alcohol work? So I need to superglue the antlers so they become solid.. I need to clean my work surfaces with acetone and use the longest cure time epoxy for the best results?

No rubbing alcohol,it has oil in it. Denatured alcohol is what you want. Hardware stores carry it. JF

Never used antler for tip overlays but as its a porous material you can try sizing it....coat the surface with epoxy and let it dry. If at that point it looks like no epoxy was applied then it was likely all absorbed into the antler...apply it again. After it dries sand it lightly and then epoxy it to the bow. I don't use 5 minute epoxy on any bow that I am adding overlays to...a slow cure is stronger.

Good Luck

Why does everyone get in a hurry? 5 min epoxy is only good for project that don't require strength! The longer the cure, the stronger the bond. I would only use Smooth-on or West Systems for a project like that, both will set up without heat. I would suggest de-greasing with Acetone instead of alcohol of any kind. I've used West Systems epoxy for 30 years for gluing wooden footings to wood shafts and NEVER had a failure. And yes I did knock on wood!!!

Bob

I think the saturated antler superglue idea is the best, gel super glue works well as a gap filler for your final glue-up. You don't need to use any solvent to degrease freshly sanded wood surfaces. I quit the practice about 10 years ago and have never had a failure, Dean Torges came to the same conclusion.

I have glued on a bunch of wood to wood nock overlays with superglue, all are still on.

I have never had lasting luck glueing anything on bow wise with 5 minute epoxy or 30 minute for that matter. There are better glues out there. I am currently using smooth-on.

Stay away from the original Gorilla glue(the foaming kind) it has no place in bow making.

I disagree Eric the white version of gorilla glue works best for me on antler-Dean told me to use it! The CYA gel gorilla glue (blue top with "rubberized particles") is my go-to for regular overlays but CYA and antler seems to not be very "impact resistant" and popoff fairly easily.

I don't use CYA on antler.My second choice to white GG would be good ol' smooth-on.

I guess there's lots of ways to do it.

Antler is a nice decorative touch but I found on my longbow made by a well known bowyer the antler wouldn't stay put. I used 5 min epoxy and crazy clue type glues (CNA) but nothing worked in the long term.

I notice your limb is pretty thin near the tip, it may be slightly flexing. This would be my first suspicion. No glue will hold up if only one part is flexing. I leave the last several inches a bit thicker.

Loctite Professional is the only glue I use. Never had it let me down in any application. Its not cheap, but good stuff isn't. I don't wipe it with anything and I don't tooth it. I simply back fill and glue it down on two perfectly mating surfaces.

Between Eric Krewson, Jeff Durnell and myself you have about 700 bows made. I know what direction Id lean.

I have used the super glue way and I got a dentist drill bit from my dentist and drilled holes in different angles Ive soaked in acetone to remove the oils and they still came off you cant stop the expanding and contracting, antler is a very poor choice for tip overlays. Years ago I tried every thing I could think of from using tube epoxy, super glue, cieba geigy ,smooth on and another type of glue I don't remember all sooner or later had a failure . Some antler would stick and never come off I think it was just the piece of antler was right for not expanding . I came in from hunting one evening and it was minus 10 when I entered the bow shop,which was about 72 degrees, I unstrung my longbow and both tip overlays slid off with the string. The big change in temperature caused the antler to move.

I also have used the West System without any failures. Also used G2 per Direwolf with great results. John

Just sitting here listening. Very informative thread. As a former cabinetmaker I have my opinions about that but here I'm just taking in what you guys are saying. Thanks!

I have to confess; I have never used gorilla glue on an overlay but have used it on backing several times with failures both times.

The white super glue seems to work well for antler overlays. I also use it on leather. Mostly I use tightbond 3 and size the antler before the final glue up to seal it.

Not trying to start an argument here, but I was PMed by a fellow LWer that said he spliced fiber optic cables for a living and he said DN alcohol was the one that had oil in it and to use 91% -100% alcohol. He said they were forbidden to use DN alcohol to clean FO cable in prep for splicing because of the oil. I would think Everclear would work too. I asked him, but he may have been too busy to reply or didn't get time to reply to the Everclear question. That's what I was told.

Eric I definitely wouldn't use it on a bending surface but it's great on antler.

I use moose antler and sheep horn on over half of the bows I build. I have never had problems with horn and have only had problems with antler twice that I can recall and I have used it a lot.. and I mean a lot! not only for tips but for riser overlays.

My method is to grind it from the back side to near where I plan on using it. I then soak it in aceton over night to get the fat out of it. I then heat it with a heat gun to pre shrink it...don't go too hot or it will become so brittle that you can't even flex it without it breaking. Then I grind the back side with 49 grit on my edge sander. I glue with smooth on.

In the last 400 + antler tipped bows, I've not had one come off.

Now, I have tried getting fancy and making a couple too long and they flexed with the limb and lifted, but that wasn't the fault of the antler..just the boyer. BigJim

Mr. Jim you said you use " smooth on" is that a type of glue? What would i heat it with?

Chance, Smooth On EA40 is a two part epoxy glue that has been used in bow making for a long time. It's the industry 'standard'... i.e. what most bowyers rely on... glass bowyers anyway. You can buy it pretty much anywhere bow making supplies are sold. I know 3 Rivers has it. Big Jim may sell it too.

When you said "heat it", did you mean what do you heat the glue with, or what you heat the antler with?

Smooth On doesn't HAVE to be heated in order to cure, it will cure at room temperature, but heat accelerates the cure, and perhaps makes it a bit stronger.

Smooth On is a 2-part epoxy and its great stuff. But, if all you need it for is a few overlays you will have wasted a lot of money.

I did not read it all but when I got to Jeff D. That was enough. I am with him except I use Bowyers CA. Glue. Twenty min. Dry. Don't be stingy with the glue though. Arvin

Like pearl i use locktight professional superglue, and i use it to soak into the antler, built maybe 200 bows or so most with overlays no failures

Haven't build a bow in a while but I used tooting plane to score limb and antler, wipe both sides with acetone and glue with the same epoxy I use for reel seats building fly rods like U-40 Rod Bond. Then clamp just tight enough to get a bit of squeeze out.

Tried various super glues, URAC and some of the big box store 2 part epoxy, but found the flexible rod building blend seemed to hold best. Only built about a dz bows though...

I use Loctite professional on all of my overlays. I don't use antler much. I don't like the porous core. My favorite overlay material is big horn sheep. I get both surfaces perfectly flat and matching. I wipe them both down with acetone. I put the glue on the bow and the overlay and then press them together. I wrap it with a lot of small rubber bands to provide pressure over the entire glue joint. I've never had one fail so I will continue doing it that way.

When I wipe a freshly sanded osage tip with acetone my rag turns yellow. That makes me think that there is oil in the wood that I am removing.

Listen to Pearl! You have to fill the porous antler first. Arvin

May I add a technical aspect to what Pearl Drum has already quite rightly said.

It's important to remember that antler is a true bone, in that, it consists of the two constituent parts of the hard outer cortical bone layer and inner cancellous bone matrix. The cancellous inner bone is formed in a directional lattice called trabeculea. The trabeculea not only directs line of stress within the structure, but it also acts as a shock damper. Unfortunately cancellous bone has very little inherent strength, in fact, in the living animal, it breaks down very easily but, repair, because of the high level of osteoblast activity, is very rapid.

Hard outer cortical bone is mostly made up of calcium phosphate with a few other salts and minerals thrown in, but cancellous bone has a higher level of collagen, which we all know is a protein, which becomes rigid and brittle when it dehydrates.

So ... Pearl Drums recommendations that the antler cancellous matrix be saturated with glue ....... is absolutely correct ... it stops the trabeculea from micro fracturing and the bond failing.

Sorry to be nerdy, but I did quite a lot of work on the use of adhesives for human bone fracture repair in the 1980's

I think that is the most technical explanation of tip overlays in the history of mankind. Thanks Phil. That makes sense and backs up what has been suggested by Pearly.

Lots of good advice here, starting with Pearl Drums. I had antler tips on my early bows fall off, sometimes soon and sometimes years after making the bow. Sizing with glue before glue up is the key. But let me add a side note -- 5 minute epoxy is worthless for almost any application. I've had nothing but trouble with it. Get the slow cure stuff.

Can a bowyer buy the slow cure stuff locally at a hardware store or such or will it need to be ordered?

Smooth on is only available online as far as I know. I get mine through Binghams

Your limb tips are too thin and flexing, no glue will hold unless you do an underlay on the bottom of the limb, maybe 3" long and 1/16 thick would work.

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