I was watching a show tonight about game wardens in Maine chasing poachers. They were chasing guys that were throwing corn out for deer. The game wardens said it was not fair chase. Our state allows baiting so I guess our state does not care about fair chase. What does your state say? And now I feel bad about bear hunting over bait.,
P & Y and B & C have plenty of animals taken over bait;they consider it fair chase. Part of the fair chase rule is to obey the laws, rules and regulations of the state/province/country where you're hunting.
I'd suggest if you "feel bad about bear hunting over bait," then don't do it.
There are a lot of strange "hunting" around. Many people like to go to Africa sit in a dark bunker by the water hole in the dry season. In some US states one can get licence to "hunt" from a car on public land. In South Europe it's a little army in a line shooting game that are driven by 40-50 dogs. I have been doing all types of hunting back in time, including the monteria. Today my favorite hunting are stalking on the ground alone. All other are wasted time for me.
I live in Minnesota which allows baiting for bear but not for deer. Also do not allow hunting bear with dogs. Wis. next door allows baiting in some counties for deer and bear hunting with dogs and bait. Like Jim said, if it's legal, it's fair chase. I have watched the Maine show also and it is against the law to do deer drives. That one kind of surprised me. Do other states have laws against deer drives? It's always been popular in Minnesota.
Ok guys I disagree. If I am hunting over bait in one state and I am considered a poacher. why am I ok to do it in another state. I know I know it's the law in one stage vs another. But if I rob a store in one state it's a crime in another state as well .
Some states you can shoot crossbows during the general archery season and with the same archery tag, others you cannot. Some allowed lighted nocks, other did not. Lots of inconsistencies.
Actually Maine is kind of two-faced about baiting; it's illegal here to bait deer, but you can bait the bejeesus out of bears. Stale boxes of Dunkin Donuts are one of the preferred bear baits, I'm told.
Yep, all the hunting seasons are over for the year, and it seems many of y'all don't fish, grow 'maters, involve yourselves with lawn care or household chores, catch up with old friends, golf, play tennis, walk a mile or two to prolong your life, birdwatch, trim your toenails, or go see your mommas. Long time til October, ain't it?
In KY, you can bait deer, but not turkeys, and illegal to feed bears ! Im mystified as to how you can bait for deer, and not feed bears (fed bear is a dead bear motto) The law states you can not hunt turkey on a farm that deer are being baited, but still dont understand how you can legally feed deer, and keep bears off the bait site. Maybe a sign with a pic of a bear and a slash and circle through it ? (just in case the bear does not know English)
In SC it has always been a mess. The DNR and the legislature are at the present trying to simplify and make the regulations consistent throughout the state. So far it is pretty confusing, but it has always been a cluster so of coarse this will be no different. Cn't blame anyone for trying to make game regs more consistent and still do whats best for all as far as hunting and fishing for the public. We are blessed with some great hunting and fishing in SC.
The day that I set my moral compass by what is legal or what is illegal will be the day that I doom myself to hell.
I have thought a lot about fair chase as I slip into old age. Bottom line is that I do not believe the state really cares about fair chase but rather does care about success rates of certain tactics and how those success rates affect the actuarial tables used when setting bag limits.
Fair chase is all in a man's mind. Local customs and how our grandfathers and father taught us had a large influence on what is considered right and what is considered wrong. It isn't exactly fair chase when we domesticate animals and gain their trust, then fatten them up, run them into a kill pen, and slaughter them. It isn't immoral either. My bottom line is that as a Christian, God gave us dominion over animals in the first few books of the Bible so we are free to kill animals without a moral concern. I prefer to still hunt with a bow but I have no qualms about taking a deer over bait with a rifle if the weather is going to be right for aging meat and the season is about to close. It would not bother me to see animals caught in a trap then slaughtered. But that would not be hunting, that would be harvesting.
We used to go to Inlet to watch the bears feasting at the dump. It was nice to see bears, but to suggest shooting them there while that vulnerable and unafraid would have been against how I was brought up hunting. It seems the exact same thing when I see these posts on Bowsite with bears rummaging around in a drum filled with molasses and Krispy Kremes with some 'hunter' hiding in a tree stand 20 yards away with an .06 or a compound, then later posing with this huge bear propped up on a rock, and the hunter ten feet behind it to make it look big, like he's accomplished something really difficult and special. That to me is the opposite of fair chase. Now hey, if you want to kill a bear within the legal means, I don't care how you do it. I don't even care if these guys are shooting all these bears over bait. Whatever, it is not hurting the population obviously - there are plenty of these threads every year. But to freaking POSE with it like you would if you just went on an Alaskan Dall sheep hunt high up in the Chugach on your own and did something truly difficult and actually had something worth recording to show off, or you finished off a big bull you called in, or any whitetail you stalked and shot 'fair chase', or turkey with bow, then hey, that to me is worth a picture. I just get queasy when I am reminded of the bears at the dumps - and some guy shooting one, then posing with it. Just a big ego trip to me - that flies in the face of what I was raised with. But you go ahead and shoot your garbage bears... :) As for deer over bait? No, not over a pile of bait or a salt lick. Not my way. In a field full of corn or millet, or a mast tree or apple tree that is there already, no problem.
In NY, no baiting or mineral licks - but it is legal for sporting goods stores to sell mineral blocks. Kinda like thumbing the nose at DEC and just seems wrong to me. I destroy mineral blocks when I find them in the woods. Have found a few put out by those easily tempted.
I to watch that show and be leave that you can hunt bears over bait but you can't deer they are there to protect there deer herd if you can over bait go ahead but remember it's your choice we in mich. can hunt over bait but I chose not to my choice
There are no sure things even with baiting...they allow baiting here in SC on private property...and I can tell you it is no more reliable for mature does and bucks than sitting on a white oak tree when it is dropping, a corn field, a clover field, or a cutover....there is so much to eat down here 10 out of 12 months...baiting may bring the deer to your area but they are just as wary or moreso...and still 90% will be at night. Primarily I see does with fawns at bait...or first year spike bucks....older bucks are nocturnal except a few times in rut when they will go by the bait site to check on receptive does...but they dont stop except at night. No more unethical than sitting over persimmon when they ripen and fall, apple orchard, soybean field corners or white oak that is full of acorns.
My only issue with baiting for deer or bears is when people dump huge amounts of bait, leave trash all around, the bait spoils and becomes dangrous to eat and it messes up the area.....then I hate it when I see that and guess majority of the NO BAITING areas I have seen are from slob hunters leaving a mess....or a worry about CWD with the deer up north piling up in high density herds for a single food source and disease going rampant. More of a habitat and health thing in far north...but down here in south I think it is negligible in most cases.
K Cummings, extreme apples and oranges. I wouldn't destroy their car but I would report them if it meant keeping someone safe. Breaking game laws is like stealing game from others, and I won't stand for theft of any kind. I hate thieves. Wouldn't you turn in a poacher if you caught them in the act or inform CO if you suspected it? I doubt like hell that if I told a CO about a salt lick I found out in the woods somewhere that he'd go in there to find it or survey the situation. So I'll save them the trouble and 'take the law into my own hands' here. Pretty darn small potatoes actually, but it might actually keep one of the public's deer from falling at the hands of some (albeit minor) game violation. Maybe even one of the deer I could actually harvest legally. I would turn in any game violation in a heartbeat. Destroy someone's car because they are speeding - seriously, you are really reaching here, K.
TK, I do the same when I find a salt block in the woods.
Just to fan the fire a bit, however, I don't buy into that whole 'dominion over the animals' stuff. Anyone who wants to believe it is welcome to, but I don't personally; I think it's a very convenient and purely human conceit.
Anyone ever use bait when fishing? Most of the time the govt doesn't know what to do, and only goes with those with the loudest voices and deepest pockets. That's what got the guys out west into trouble when outsiders thought it was a great idea to introduce wolves into the National parks to hear their pretty howls! Oopps
Of course, a lot of these arguments go round and round because people either don't know or don't agree on what all the words mean... Pretty hard to agree on what's Ethical Behavior if you don't know what an Ethic is...
If it is Legal, that only means that it is not beneath the minimum standard of behavior which society will tolerate without imposing fines and/or jail time. And the one good thing about Legal is that we live in a country where the laws are the same for every last one of us.... whether our elected officials are willing to behave that way or not.
But basically, Laws are there to keep us from hurting each other.
Morals are Religious Laws, intended to keep us from hurting others AND from hurting ourselves. But they're based on Harm.
Ethics are not Laws, because they are intended for the common GOOD; if you don't understand what that means, you need look no farther than The Golden Rule and how it feels when the shoe is on the other foot.
The only behavioral guidelines that are Personal are Values, because they're all about what is important to the individual.
And all that Fair Chase means is that the animal has every reasonable chance to escape.... which is a Values statement, and subject to interpretation.
I don't "hunt" inside of a fence because it's not Fair Chase: in MY OPINION, it COULD BE, but only if the enclosed area is larger than the normal Home Range of the animal that you're hunting AND the population density is not artificially enhanced. And (again IMHO), the scent-lock and HECS suits - if they were to work as advertised - really cross the line. A deer has a brain about the size of my fist, and more than half of it is dedicated to processing scents; how can you take that away and still give the animal a "reasonable opportunity" to detect you and escape?
Feeders and food plots do not Control the animals' behavior out-right in the way that a fence does, but they are nonetheless a deliberate effort to influence the animals' behavior for the express purpose of making them easier to shoot… So again, that's pretty much borderline as an objective standard for Fair Chase.
I don't shoot over bait because it's not consistent with my Values; I also have an Ethical concern, because I can't shake the feeling that the animals are artificially concentrated around bait sites, which means that if you are not baiting but the guy 200 yards over is sitting on top of a car-load of corn, your hunt is probably going to be adversely affected. I don't want anyone doing that to me, so if I do that to anyone else.... then I am the one being Unethical.
I also happen to think that legalized baiting for deer is generally bad Law because of the obvious potential for increased rates of disease transmission which could wipe out the resource.
Morally… I'm not even sure that I think baitng is moral, because while I don't really buy into that whole Dominion thing, I do feel a strong sense of Stewardship towards the animals and the land, whether I were to own it out right, own it in part (as is the case with public lands) or I am a guest on property owned by another. And anything that you do knowing full well that it has the potential to wipe out the herd and basically poison the land indefinitely.... Yeah, No. not passing the Sniff Test.
Baiting for bears.... different wildlife management concerns need different regulations, but if your values are different shooting a Bear over a Barrel vs. a Buck over a Bucket..... then Bob Rowlands has got your number...
To add to that, respect for God's creations is respect for God. He offers it up, so take what you need and leave the rest. Greed has no place in hunting or fishing, and 'dominion' can become a euphemism for 'greed' to those so inclined.
Talked to a Game Warden about the baiting rules in Pa. You can be arrested for hunting over bait even tough your not hunting over bait. If they feel your hunting on a trail leading to the bait you can be arrested even if you don't know the bait is there. I hunt on my brother in laws property and he put out some salt licks that I didn't know about. The Game Warden told me I could of been arrested for hunting in the area, not even in sight of the salt lick.
I consider baiting if you have the bait under your tree stand not a couple hundred yards away.
Don't get too close to that acorn trees producing a bumper crop, or that deer path leading to a bean field. Heck, shouldn't tree-stands be unethical too?
if it were illegal....I would call the law in a heart beat. Whether it is in your moral code...really makes a difference or not in the big schemes...doesnt matter. If it is against law then turn them in. I dont have any patience with poachers and those breaking the laws because of selfishness.
KPC, did I say anything about bashing in the car of the guy who put the salt lick out? Or anything like that at all? I said I'd remove the SALT LICK. I'd tell the kid to march the pack of gum back to the store owner if I caught him stealing it. What kind if idiotic analogy are you trying to convince legitimacy of to anyone here? I see a salt lick out on public land where I hunt, its toast, get it? Its a public resource they are try to rip off. No freaking game warden is going to go waste part of his 8 hour shift to look for some obscure salt lick. Get real here, this whole ethics bs is way out of hand. If I find a plot of dope or a bunch of snares, or illegal trap set ups, then I call the authorities. Otherwise, just call me the Robin Hood of Salt Licks... hahaha. You can be Mr. Nice Guy and show respect for some AH who decides he's is gonna put a salt lick under his stand - probably hunting them at night with a spot light way out in the back 40 where I found them anyway. I DO hear shots at night around her, and those I DID report.
Game departments aren't arbiters of ethics, or styles. They are law enforcement for the most part. It would be like asking an art gallery guard what it felt like to be an artist. If nothing else the fact that states exist to fragment legal approaches to everything means they aren't making any kind of serious attempt to reach singular positions on morals, ethics, etc... The point was democracy, I guess.
Baiting isn't fair chase, or really "hunting" for that matter. But that doesn't mean it is a bad things to do. Hunting has many purposes, in some cases baiting is the only, or the best, or the preferred method. Americans like to simplify language to a grade 6 level than argue over uncovered distinctions. The English have a variety of terms, such as driving (we have that); shooting; stalking; hunting. If you sit on your butt, over food some outfitter laid out, and then shoot something that shows up, it's not hunting or chasing. Some people love it though, and they like eating bear meat also.
I personally have -0- interest in what is or isn't considered "fairchase" by anyone other than the overseeing body of wherever I am hunting. Because typically, if it's legal in a state, it's considered fairchase.
I also don't need anyone to help me read my "moral compass" as it pertains to baiting, or not, as I'm grown, and have been doing this longer than a lot of folks her
Here we go again. All that's legal isn't necessarily ethical, and all that's ethical isn't necessarily legal. When the two don't jibe, it's my hope that folks will go beyond what's legal to do what's ethical.
Traditions and philosophy are different around the world. I have killed hundreds of red deer in the middle of night in moonlight. A nice way to hunt but not legal many places outside Europe.
Agree - Your in stand on a cold day, and a big fat doe walks under, or by you with two VERY young ones... Still hitting the nip. Is it legal to shoot the doe? Yep! Would most of you do it? Nope!
Baiting deer led to a week taken off our season in my zone as the bucks coming out of the rut were desperate for food. They went from nocturnal to taking a chance before dark. The kill skyrocketed and the season had to be curtailed. They also reduced the baiting season to 1 month from 3 in the Northern zomes. A lot of guys quit bowhunting after the baiting season ends. Bowhunting is a dying sport up here anyways as sales of crossbows up here outnumber compounds 2 to 1. The areas I hunt are so remote that none of this except the 1 week closure affects me. I have not met another hunter while bowhunting in years. I hate to sit and equate sitting in a tree stand over a bait pile to watching paint dry. I have to see what is over the next ridge.
As much as I respect and admire the folks here... some of you arguing this topic need to step outside and get some fresh air. Then come back in a turn off your computer. For a month.
Just came back in from nice cool outside air... refreshed. :) Now to KPC, OMG, I RIP OFF and bust up some illegally placed salt lick...OOOO!!! Twice I did that! Technically, I AM a criminal. I agree. I'm the Salt Lick Poacher! :^) Right or wrong, call it Frontier Justice. Leaving now, for a good while, until no more ethics topics appear.
I've opposed baiting in Wisconsin for years. Counties with CWD do not allow baiting. Baiting "feeding corn or apples in a small pile" disrupts the deer's natural movement and causes them to be nocturnal. It becomes difficult to use your woodsmanship skills to pattern deer movement in an area with baits. I realize that food plots and farm fields are also a draw but they are much bigger and more difficult to pattern. Baiting Bears in states that have thick woods and swamps is about the only way to hunt them, and its not easy. You may have Bears coming into your donuts and cookies, but in Wisconsin the season opens about when the acorns fall which pretty much closes down your bait as Bears prefer acorns over anything else. In the western states it is probably more ethical to spot and stalk. Joel
I have hunted in states that allowed it and states that did not,, it was never an issue for me,, and not an issue for me today,, I just love to bow hunt,, and get outside,,
KPC if using a mineral block is illegal destroying it is not,or if it bothers you call a game protector and let him destroy it. Every time a to bait or not to bait thead comes up we alway get the stupidest comparisons posted. A pile of corn being compared to 1000 acres of planted corn or a pile of corn being compared to thousands of acres of woods with oak tree and acorns all through it.
Oh yeah and let's not forget the ever popular "The Indians did it". They also drove em over cliffs. Native hunted to live we do it for fun or because we like the meat more than the steaks and hamburgers in our freezers.
I have to agree with TK and GLF; KPC's logic is twisted in a knot here. If you destroy a mineral block in a state where they're illegal, you're not doing anything illegal, immoral, or unethical--quite the contrary, in fact. Whoever put that salt block out in the woods is littering at best, and poaching at worst...and long may Trapper's righteous wrath descend upon them and their illegal bait.
If it is illegal in Maine that is why the officers said that. It is not deemed fair chase if it is illegal in that state. In NY it would not be considered fair chase either and if caught doing it, you will be prosecuted. No feeding deer here in NY either it became illegal when they EHD and such started showing up. I myself do not care for hunting over bait but I have no issues with someone who wants too where it is legal. I will also agree that there are instances where baiting may be the only real chance folks have at killing a deer. Go hunt the lowlands of South Carolina where the undergrowth is so thick a deer can be a couple feet from you and you cannot see them. I have hunted there several times and I can see why guys bait there. I passed some nice bucks over the feeder I set, just did not feel right!! Shawn
One year when the BMW convention was in Colorado, we stopped to have some coffee and lunch miles from anywhere. A mule deer buck stood up not too far away and came too us. I hand fed him a doughnut. We miles away from any tourist attraction, but somebody somewhere had that buck conditioned. Such conditioning robs the animal of its survival integrity.
One day after I was finish with my hunting in South Africa my friend down there ask me if I wanted to go with them to prepare for some bow hunters that was on the way from Europe. Yes, let's go. On the way to the area we pick up a big bag with cheese pop spill from a local factory. They started throwing this on the road down a welly in the hunting area. We build 3 blinds and drop about 30 gallons of snacks 20 yards from each blind. I did not see one animal on the way down, on the way back we have to use the car horn to clear the road. Some weeks after a bunch of happy hunters went home after a "great challenge" in the wild of Africa :)
Deer populations have to be controlled and just like bear hunting in some areas the brush makes it damn near impossible to do so. In other states like Ohio the only reason for baiting is if you can't hunt. One year a bunch of friends went bear hunting in Ontario. He was booked up by the time I called so I decided to try it alone. I stopped at every donut shop I could find and bought up the leftover donuts that woulda been thrown out and put em in a trash bag
When I got to my hunting spot I added a gallon of water and mixed it all up. I then lit a small propane torch and sat it so the flame hit the donuts. About 10 minutes later I killed a bear off it. The guys who paid a guide to bait train bears for em about had fits. They said I cheated and that it wasn't fair to the bear. People can be weird.
Sorry my phone let's me just type so much...... anyhow one other time Roger Rothaar gave me a card for a guide he had used in northern saskachawan. I went their and killed 2 big bears. So I've tried baiting. It's just not for me. I bear hunt states where I can spot n stalk em now. Bears are still a favorite tho.
Funny - There is always the guy that says, "Every time a to bait or not to bait thread comes up we always get the stupidest comparisons posted." Arhhh :)
Each state sets game laws in order to protect the resource. Each state has different laws partially because traditions are different, partially because politics are different, and also because the resources are different. In Maine, bears are harder to hunt, and so to control the numbers, baiting is legal. Some states allow the use of dogs and driving lines for deer. Legal hunting methods and "fair chase" are two different standards. While baiting deer, using dogs, and driving is legal in some states, it is also widely against fairchase standards in most settings. Fair chase implies pitting yourself against the animal without an improper advantage. As I stated previously, some situations present different standards as to what would constitute an improper advantage. I don't agree with baiting for deer, but if it's legal in your state and the resource numbers aren't steadily declining, then no one should get bothered by it.
God a new troll. Steve go back and look at your posts you havent made 1 post that wasnt a smartassed comment or troll pic. At least the rest of us tried.
Like many here, know some locals who poach. One knows every trail and fishing pond in a private camp for the rich in the central Adirondacks. He lives in a cabin with no running water and cans his meat for the winter. Another I saw doing the slow drive along the backroad to town. He too eats the meat. The local Wardens knows of one I know for sure as the hunter's daughter told me they knew of her dad when she went to hunter safety school. They are both fine contributing folks - just poor.
Trapper Kayak - Remember seeing deer feeders for sale in Plattsburgh, NY when I was at Gander Mountain a few years back, about the time those two escapees were loose. Wonder if they sold many.
Sure used to like seeing those photos from their farms of the deer at bait stations my friends and colleges showed at the agricultural research station in Oklahoma where I worked four years ago. One shot a compound, one a long bow, and two had old Bear recurves like mine. Most were also gun season hunters too. If a fellow wants to have a feeder - more power to him. No different to me than planting a small field for game or hunting along a field of crops where the trails are the freshest. Just don't shoot someone's pet.
I got so sick of shooting deer over corn with my compound that I quit it and got it recurve . I hunt happier now . Back when baitin became legal I was forced into competing with neighbors on who had the biggest bait pile . I hated it
Bob, not even close. Deer and bear get conditioned when using a feeder. Not at all like a food plot or cornfield or soybeans. That is just not the case. The feeder goes off and it acts as a dinner bell. Same as the truck pulls up and the guy gets out and throws around 10 pounds of corn, the truck becomes the que. I have no problem with folks who bait and where it is legal. The problem is the folks thinking like you that it is no different then food plots. There is a huge difference. Shawn
Kinda like bear bait training. 2 guys go to the stand, one gets in the stand. The other refreshes the bait and rattles the buckets together then walks out. The bear doesn't know how many came in. He just knows someone came in, left him food and left.
I would rather hunt a food plot,, I like hunting the trails coming to them,, you can set back a ways were the deer are not looking for you as much, or I find it better to get a shot at a deer that is not so on alert,, I also think you have more shot opportunities at a food plot ,, it will draw more deer,,
Hunting and fishing is basically "put and take", micro-managed to a micron, and getting worse. With increasingly limited habitat, high-tech, and more drawings, we need fewer hunters, not more.
This has been a long read and I am wishing I had a donut to go with a fresh cup of coffee and wondering if carp bait, i.e. doughballs made with boiled corn meal and vanilla extract, would also work on deer and bear. They'd be harder to reel in, for sure, but eat better.
"Greed has no place in hunting or fishing, and 'dominion' can become a euphemism for 'greed' to those so inclined."
Yup, that and an excuse for making a sloppy job of it.
"Heck, shouldn't tree-stands be unethical too?"
At one point, they were not only deemed Unsporting (by the likes of Teddy Roosevelt, for example), but in many states they were illegal - because they were simply too effective. And if you want a little irony in your diet, you should read African Game Trails...
"'KPC if using a mineral block is illegal destroying it is not...'
Incorrect."
I'm pretty sure that it is legal to dispose of any type of garbage that has been dumped illegally on public land.
Yep, all the hunting seasons are over for the year, and it seems many of y'all don't fish, grow 'maters, involve yourselves with lawn care or household chores, catch up with old friends, golf, play tennis, walk a mile or two to prolong your life, birdwatch, trim your toenails, or go see your mommas. Long time til October, ain't it? I do all of above but it isn't as fun as fishing on here. LOL
Yep, all the hunting seasons are over for the year, and it seems many of y'all don't fish, grow 'maters, involve yourselves with lawn care or household chores, catch up with old friends, golf, play tennis, walk a mile or two to prolong your life, birdwatch, trim your toenails, or go see your mommas. Long time til October, ain't it? I do all of above but it isn't as fun as fishing on here. LOL
It is illegal to bate anything in Tennessee, so I let the Good Lord bate for me, white oaks and persimmons in the early season and red oak /Honey suckle /read briers and browse for the later season along with a hot doe now and then in the fall and Hen in the spring. Never really seen the need , I don't usually do food plots either, they are a lot of trouble and cost a lot and Like I said, never really seen the need,but if it is legal where you live or have the time and money for food plots I have no problem with anyone that dose feel the need. Is it fair chase, I would say everyone needs to figure that one out for their selves.Love reading these threads though, so many different opinions and that will never change. Pappy
'...so many different opinions and that will never change.' Pappy. LOL, true, you can always figure out who all the Master Baiters are on here with these threads... :^)
When I walk into a shop selling hunting gear in US and other places in the world I see a big difference. Never see any of the "smart" things outside US. Saw to cut the head of a animal, plastic antlers to smash together to make noise, all types of chemicals to shower in before going out hunting, tons of different bait. I have been a very successful hunter on all ground I have been hunting. Many places I was allowed to bait, newer did it never think that way. Remember one autumn there was a early storm that blow down a lot of apples in a neighbor's garden. He was about to throw all the apples he had been clearing from the ground, 4 big hard to lift sacks. I told him I wanted the appeals. I drive them out to a place where the deer don't stay in the autumn, just to see the effect of baiting. 3 days after I was back, all was gone not one single apple left. just a muddy spot full of deer party marks. Was thinking here are some big belly farting deers in the hills above. Hunting are the freedom to move around high in the country in beautiful autumn colors, not waiting down in a dark welly by a pile of apples or smashing plastic antlers by the road side stinking like a vegetable ;) Do what you want and enjoy life :)
Well I like a good stalk as much as anybody. That been said I have hunted over bait in Tx a lot. You get in the south Tx brush country and you learn to suck those deer out as best you can. You get in thick briers anywhere and bait becomes more important. We also hunt water holes when it is really dry. I hunted water holes in Africa. Let me tell you with a rifle it would be easy. A longbow well that's different. Most everything dies at the waterhole. You can have 15 species in front of you and one blue balled monkey hauls ass and everything but the rhino leaves. The game is on alert at the water holes I promise . So where it's Legal it's legal . I can't tell that baiting deer in Tx has hurt the deer population. To each his on like everything else. Arvin
Well I like a good stalk as much as anybody. That been said I have hunted over bait in Tx a lot. You get in the south Tx brush country and you learn to suck those deer out as best you can. You get in thick briers anywhere and bait becomes more important. We also hunt water holes when it is really dry. I hunted water holes in Africa. Let me tell you with a rifle it would be easy. A longbow well that's different. Most everything dies at the waterhole. You can have 15 species in front of you and one blue balled monkey hauls ass and everything but the rhino leaves. The game is on alert at the water holes I promise . So where it's Legal it's legal . I can't tell that baiting deer in Tx has hurt the deer population. To each his on like everything else. Arvin
There are so many variables its like guys saying they won't date an ugly woman or be seen when out in public with her.LOL
Anyone who really knows that's a stupid thing to say because that women might just be the golden jewel and the best of all women too. Best heart and love you more than any show piece.
Unless you have extensively baited and tested it out and have mastered the art of it and it can be an art how do you really know then?LOL
Is it fair chase that's what has to be decided in your own heart what you want to do and how difficult you want to make things to collect an animal.
If you want to achieve various results with in the state allowances then its ok. If the state says its not fair chase then they made the decision for their own rules to guide you.
What state says baiting isn't "fair chase". I agree it isn't but what state bothers to say it isn't fair chase? Murder is illegal here, but they don't say you can't murder because it is: unchristian; unfair; not fair play. The law just says it is illegal. Normally the state is pretty proud of their ability to call things legal or illegal. They don't mess around with characterizing it.
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I never dated an ugly woman, or one who smokes. Sure they may be wonderful. I don't want to know about it. Opium might turn out to be your best friend, that is why I stay away from it.
Baiting does suck in the deer. In north Dakota a massive baiting operation sucks the deer in from a wide area. Around the paid access baiting area is the only place there are deer, hundreds of deer. A breeding ground for herd killing disease. I do enjoy it when people get way defensive when they know that they are taking an easy way out. I could care less what goes on in Texas, but if baiting was legal in Iowa it would be a problem statewide. Of course on the other hand, most hunters in Iowa like to hunt with in sight of their vehicles, just so they can run to safety if something scary shows up, baiting would ensure that even hunt closer to their vehicles, or is it that hunters are getting less adventurous and lazy every year. One "hunter" here got permission to drive in on private land along some state land. Drove right to the fence, walked 50 yards and climbed into an elevated blind. Curios, I went to look at his tent in the sky, I also found the powder patches and feed blocks and a pile of oats. Called the game warden immediately, and told him how to make the walk short by following the pickup tracks of the baiter.
I agree that hunting has many purposes. Apparently, bears are viewed a bit differently in Maine. Unless things have changed recently, Maine is the only state that allows bears to be trapped (with foot snares). Deer hunting still brings a lot more money into the state, so they are treated differently.
IMO, Maine has the best run Fish & Game Department in the country. That is why they rate having their own TV show. - John
I bait squirrels in my backyard. It is baby squirrel season. The little buggers were looking hungry, the big squirrels won't let them eat. So I changed my tactics. A little here and a little there and a zig-zag here and there. Before I got back into the house, I had seven squirrels feeding at various spots and not fighting with each other, so the little tykes got something to eat too. A good automated feeder should have a bell on it, to tell the deer when it is feeding time.
Yeah, only the best in their respective fields get TV shows. (eye roll).
Good point Jeff, but they were the first. The show has gone a long way in improving their public relations and I believe the department makes money from it. They are smart and make money from several ventures. That income funds more people, excellent equipment, and training, while keeping license fees reasonable.
I usually get pissed when I receive the New Mexico Fish & Game publication in my Sunday newspaper. License fees are too high here and the seasons too short. Why am I paying for their public relations? The Maine fish & game publication has to be purchased. It is good enough that a lot of people are willing to pay for it though. - John
One North Woods Law episode from New Hampshire had me scratching my head. Two Game Wardens were trying to pin a baiting and poaching charge onto a young bowhunter. The wardens wanted the young man to show them where he killed his deer. Insisting all the while that he was hunting over bait. The kid had one thing in his favor, he hadn't recovered his arrow that had passed thru the deer. Now the kid insisted that he had shot the deer from the ground with no bait involved. The two wardens, both old enough to know better, looked into the camera and said: "Nobody up here bowhunts from the ground. It is too hard to get close enough on the ground to kill a deer."
So the kid, wardens and their blood sniffing dog, all headed a mile back into the woods, to the kill site. They walked in, I may add. When they got to the spot, there was no evidence of any bait on the ground, nor was there any evidence that a tree stand had been used. The dog started casting around for blood sign and low and behold, he located the kid's bloody arrow. So much for the poaching and baiting charge. The wardens had to admit that this was anew one on them as they hiked the mile back out of the woods. I think the kid was using a 38# Kodiak Magnum with Bear Razorheads. bvd
What's really unethical is binoculars. What other predator mammal has magnified vision. What's even worse is hunting with glasses or contacts. Constant unnatural vision enhancement.
Some facts? There is ZERO evidence that baiting spreads disease. Guys just read it or heard it someplace and repeat what they have heard. It has NEVER been proven.
Destroying a mineral block actual makes it better and more attractive to all kinds of critters, not just deer. Had a hole 5' around and a foot deep at my dads place from the deer, bear, porcupines, coons, everything coming in pawing up the ground for what their bodies needed.
Spring bear baiting is an easy way to kill a bear and a good way for Outfitters to make money. An outfitter can have 12 or more hunters in camp and only need one or two helpers for baiting. A S&S outfit has a "guide" (really just a driver) for every two guys in camp. Plus, a lot of guys don't know of any other way to hunt bear then baiting. In western Alberta they used to allow bear baiting till the Grizzly's made a comeback. They changed the laws to no bait and it took awhile but the outfitters came around the S&S hunting. The size of the bear killed increased and the kill rates stayed the same. Ontario should have made their spring season S&S. Fall bear hunting is tougher to S&S but still my way if I can.
Sorry but there is proof baiting "helps spreading disease. Studies show that places like Kansas and other states that allow baiting have a higher incidence of EHd and such spreading due to congregating deer. Corn in piles and piled baits make it worst. States like NY and many others have out lawed any type of feeding as they know it does help spread the diseases when they are present in a herd. Shawn
A pile of corn spreads saliva from different deer to others much more than acorns spread over half an acre or acres, moreso than any other deer activity. Ohio allows baiting on private property statewide, except one county. A pay to kill operation had a deer with chronic waste and when they checked the farm they bought it from also had a case. They destroyed the other deer and shut of baiting in that county just in case it had spread to wild deer. They said that baiting would be the most likely way to spread the disease.
Talking about bait there is a big pile of sweet corn at the grocery store, sure is working, there were all kinds of activity around it. Matter of fact I bought a dozen ears myself.lol Sweet corn, butter, salt and a little pepper.
I don't know if that is true or not, but it isn't all that interesting unless you can also know that they are sparing no expense to study and prove whatever it is, and that there is no technical reason why such proof should not be forthcoming. At any given time, there is tons of stuff that has no budget allocated to it, or for which reliable test do not exist, or are impractical. And then if there is enough at stake, people will often just deny otherwise persuasive evidence.
For some reason a lot of guys think baiting deer is a "pile". It's not at all. It's scattered everywhere just like acorns falling from a tree making the deer work for it, no different than corn left in the field after harvest. Deer slobber on the corn pile??????It doesn't happen. Now baiting with beets or carrots, yeah there might be half eaten beet another deer will munch on. But again, nothing is proven.
Lmao, you havent seen some of Ohio's baiters. I know a few guys who dump a few 50lb bags of corn at once. They say they don't contaminate the area as much that way,lol. Gotta remember baiting is fairly new here. Plus they can break the law and bait public land that way. They do the same for turkeys so its easy to clean up. If its over a week or two before turkey season its just feeding
Well what the birds and squirrels don't get during the day the coons will clean up at night. 50 lbs of corn won't last two days. Those Ohio boys should use sugar beets
Question for the black bear hunters: Is there a bait you would expect a "good" guide to use? i.e., beaver, tim hortons, dog food, etc...? Do you ask guides what they use when researching? Do big males prefer meat over bakery? I've never been bear hunting, except for a brown bear hunt 10 years ago that didn't work out.
"Sorry but there is proof baiting "helps spreading disease. Studies show that places like Kansas and other states that allow baiting have a higher incidence of EHd and such spreading due to congregating deer. Corn in piles and piled baits make it worst. States like NY and many others have out lawed any type of feeding as they know it does help spread the diseases when they are present in a herd." Shawn
Can you cite any study that definitively "proves" what you just wrote? I've read just about everything and I don't recall seeing anything definitive.
Just about everything I've read uses terms like: Seems to indicate, may produce, may provide evidence or lends to believe, but nothing definitive.
I'm certain that if baiting and game farms were "proved" to spread disease, every game and fish department and every department of natural resources in every state would demand that it/they cease and desist immediately.
Every outfitter is different in what they bait with. Depends on what they can get their hands on. One guy had a 50 gallon barrel of peanut butter he got for free from an ice- cream factory because the barrel was damaged in shipping. Packed in a schedule 40 4"conduit sure made the bears work for it. The one sure thing, don't try to be smarter than the outfitter and bring you're own bait to add to what the "guide" has been feeding the bears. Bigger bears will pick up on the change and most likely bail of that location. The bears can smell a bait pile for miles and they know every spot that's being baited in their area. They will either eat or they won't.
""The origin of CWD is unknown, and it may never be possible to definitively determine how or when CWD arose. It was first recognized as a syndrome in captive mule deer held in wildlife research facilities in Colorado in the late 1960s, but it was not identified as a TSE until the 1970s. Computer modeling suggests the disease may have been present in free-ranging populations of mule deer for more than 40 years.
Scrapie, a TSE of domestic sheep, has been recognized in the United States since 1947, and it is possible that CWD was derived from scrapie. It is possible, though never proven, that deer came into contact with scrapie-infected sheep either on shared pastures or in captivity somewhere along the front range of the Rocky Mountains, where high levels of sheep grazing occurred in the early 1900s.
It may be possible that CWD is a spontaneous TSE that arose in deer in the wild or in captivity and has biological features promoting transmission to other deer and elk.""
