Why the hate? Most people hunt with Binos... and I know, you don't want the pace to be slow. But the 'no glassing from the stake after the shot" makes total sense. But a 2 second glance while you are waiting tells you what you need to know.

And of course, the only reason you need the binos for 3D in the first place is for scoring. Thus the hate?

But a 2 second glance while you are waiting tells you what you need to know.

And yes, I have seen the chairs with built in coolers/quivers and umbrella holders :)

The suggestion anyone not in favor of something is "hating" the people that are is a bit ridiculous! And when people hunt with binoculars they use them to locate game not observe it at 20 yards just before a shot. Why not simply keep the process and the competition simple, a bow, arrow, target and shoot?

No, everyone doesn't use binos, and that is likely the real point. To make it an even playing field either everyone uses binos, or no one uses them.

http://www.swarovskioptik.com/nature/el-range-c21010201/el- range-8x42-p5191943

The advantage goes to the guy that has all the scoring rings memorized and/or levels it for the guy that can't hit them even if he knows where they are :)

It makes sense at a shoot like Cloverfield where the scoring is just 5 or 0.

But from reading around, it isn't just 'leveling the playing field'. It seems like a 'target shooter' backlash. I'm going to mount a spotting scope on a folding chair just to raise some ire :)

My shots look better without binoculars.

No such thing as an even playing field. Too many people try to game the rules or find a competitive advantage by technicalities of the rule. Shoot or don't shoot.

The playing field is already level, everyone can use them. Some simply choose not to.

The hates probably from guys wondering what a bowhunters course is doing wth a bullseye that you need to slow things down with binocs to see. If its a bowhunter shoot get rid of the bullseye If it's not then paint the bullseye so binocs aren't needed.

Usually they slow down the shooting. I've seen guys here locally who will glass the target...put the glasses in his holder...shoot the target...pull the glasses up and look again...put the glasses back then back away from the target. I can see why it irritates people. Back here on the field targets they aren't allowed. I can only imagine that they would add an hour to the average field round. But if they're legal, then you follow the rules and put up with them whether you use them or not.

George,

Yes..I've seen it. I came up behind some compound shooters. They were standing at the stake, both of them glassing, bows on the ground resting on their stabilizers. It was about an 18 yard shot on a very large target. They noticed me after a few minutes...and invited me to shoot through. I stepped up and could clearly see the 11 ring. I shot, went up and pulled my arrows and thanked them. They got their binos out again and started looking :)

GLF, I get that...stick a red dot on the target and get on with it.

I don't shoot for score.I shoot 3Ds and go for the best kill or would it have been a long tracking shot. I don't care about the scoring myself. No binos when I hunt or shooting 3D for me. JF

I use them at 3d matches where they are allowed, and if someone wants to know where to shoot they should take them too. 3d is a game and if they are allowed, you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't use them. I don't know how many times at a match someone has asked me, "where do I need to hit?" However, after the shot you should get off of the stake, the arrow is gone and there is nothing you can do about it, so step back, let the next shooter go, and glass from behind. It really doesn't slow the match down if done correctly.

I already know where the kill is.

I never use binoculars at 3D shoots, no need too. I see the foam critter and I know where I want to try and put my arrow. I always carry binoculars while hunting, not to see where I want to put my arrow, but mainly to positively ID a button buck from a doe. Early season it's easier to distinguish fawns from does, late season it can be more difficult, particularly in low light situations.

In the old days before ibo targets were made with the kills as realistic as possible. If you're a bowhunter you should know where the kills are. Take away binocs and make kills where they belong and you still have an even playing field and things move faster. Backups are why nfaa uses shotgun starts where everyone starts shooting at once.

Guys who gap can use the binos as rangefinders. It is done all the time. They mark the focus knob and when the image is crystal clear they know the yardage or very, very close. It slows the shoot down and some say creates an unfair advantage. Myself I could care less what guys do. If a group is slow I ask to play through so to speak. Shawn

A 3d shoot is probably one of the worst places to try to learn anatomy. Shoots I have been too never have more than 7 or 8 targets that I might ever shoot an arrow at. I go to practice picking a spot on a target in the woods and seeing how I can come to it. Choosing the center of the X as that spot is a great way to judge how well I do at that. Quick look with binoculars lets me find that spot that often is hard to see in the woods or at 20+ yards. I spend a lot less time with my binoculars on a round than many spend looking for their arrows. ;^)

"I spend a lot less time with my binoculars on a round than many spend looking for their arrows. ;^)"

Yep.

Never thought too much about the binocs until they were discussed a while back on here since they cost more than I need to spend.

But regarding the other stuff, I did buy a three legged stool to tote around at 3-D's and a water bottle holder since I was 70 and needed to watch it a little bit, but don't drag a cooler. Sure was glad when the group I shot with at the McAlester shoot in Oklahoma did in early August a few back. It gets between 100 and 105 typically that time of year, so you can only imagine how hot is was in the woods. Didn't hold up anyone and many groups had them.

When I get too old to see the deer or check targets without binocs, I'll be too old to pull'er back. If I need to spot my target for a formal tournament, I'll buy one then.

"I spend a lot less time with my binoculars on a round than many spend looking for their arrows. ;^)"

Exactly, never understood why people who cant shoot want to make up "reasons" ie, binoculars, gap shooter, or something else against people who can. I don't understand why people are in a hurry to miss.

If you are going to pic a spot at a 3d match, why not let it be the center of the 10/12 ring, instead of a, "a think that is a kill shot"

The general purpose of going to a target match is to become better shooters and compare ourselves to other shooters, the only way to do that is to have a consistent scoring system and binoculars help to take the guesswork out of it.

I've never used bino's at a 3D shoot but I see nothing wrong with it. Binoculars won't give you much advantage gapping at the trad stakes and scoring rings can be hard to see. I've never had to track a foam animal so shooting for the highest score seems like the best way to rack up more points.

Always carry bino's while hunting. Too many important things to miss besides the animal.

RJH1 I was thinking the exact same thing. Why even go to a tournament if u are going to do whatever the hell you want. It would be like playing basketball but only shooting the ball into the trash can in the corner instead of the basket, because you liked doing it better.

I would agree with ditching the binos IF we also ditched the exotic targets. There are a lot of targets that have the 10 in pretty weird places. And some are intentionally placed in high risk spots where if you are off little, you get a 5.

To the people that don't keep score....you should have more respect for the people that do. "I don't need Binos because I don't care if I hit an 11" is a perfectly valid point. But if it is a shoot with score cards and winning scores...guess what? It's a TARGET CONTEST :)

I grew up playing Golf (mostly carrying my dad's clubs). We went to some nice courses. There were always some duffers, some old men that used to be good and were still trying, some very serious players trying to improve, some drunk insurance salesman hitting extra balls and being loud and complaining that the guys in front of them were playing too slow!

Gosh, I try not to hate anyone at a weekend archery event where the purpose is, or should be, to relax and have some fun, and enjoy camaraderie with old friends I might only see once a year. I've never been to any of these shoots where people hate each other for looking through binos for a few seconds, and I sure hope I never attend one.

I heard people trash talking some of the prominent shooters at the TN Classic for taking too long. The trash talkers didn't turn in cards...and may have lost a few arrows :)

Not surprised. The Trad community is a fickle bunch. Everyone seems to have their own opinion on what is trad, barebow, longbow, how a bow should or should not be aimed, how string should be held, weather or not you should be allowed to glass a target to see where the highest scoring ring is located, what's the true intent of the rules. The list goes on and on Me, I just like to go to shoots, have fun, see new and familiar faces, and try to help grow the sport.

Many of our 3D shoots around here are of course unmarked yardage. No binoculars allowed. This is because you can buy binos with built in range finders. The shoot organizers just don't want to deal with having to police everybody's binos looking for cheaters, so no binos, period.

Shouldn't be allowed. As someone already said they can be used as a fairly accurate range finder. If you take 3D shoots seriously enough to feel you need binoculars, I'd think you'd have all the scoring rings locations memorized anyway

"If you take 3D shoots seriously enough to feel you need binoculars, I'd think you'd have all the scoring rings locations memorized anyway"

Until you shoot at a place that uses deltas or rineharts when you have been shooting ASA that uses McKensies. Or the targets have been repaired and things are not quite where they should be, or a club has some homemade targets, or etc, etc.. If people are going to cheat their are about a million ways to do it, I have never seen anyone cheat with binos (or any other way), I am sure it happens but it seems most people I shoot with are honest and it has never been an issue.

I always shoot for what I think is the best kill shot ,not where some ring is on the target. I also always look the target over through my ELs. Binoculars are a must have item for hunting. 3d is just fun practice for hunting for me. Not some game that I feel I need to win to prove something to others.

Al - Think you got it down pretty good.

Orange dot in center of kill eliminates binoculars, guessing at kill zone, and all other issues. Been saying it for 25 yesrs

Saying that some may use them to cheat so they should be banned is like saying some may poach with a recurve so they need to be banned. Geesh. Also seems like the majority against allowing them claim not to shoot for score anyway - so why could they possibly care?

Why the hate?

Envy, covetousness and or willful ignorance, collectively understood to be sinful behavior. As old as the dirt Adam came from.

Recently I shot a 3D with a local traditional champion. He carried a folding seat, because his knees are overdue for replacement. I carried binoculars, because aside from the shots being long for my category, my vision is failing and I can't see the rings from the stakes. So, should we quit? Are we cheaters? I've heard yes from some posters and IMHO, that's a lack of respect for others who differ.

Heck John, just hate everyone all the time and you don't have to worry about it.

I've got fine binos but they wouldn't count for much at my skill level ... and "knowing anatomy" doesn't count for much with the various fantasy foam beasties.

One of the biggest blowups/controversies I have ever seen at a 3D competition was over binoculars, and ignorant accusations of cheating.

It was the most senseless, and quite possibly the most stupid act of "jealousy/envy instigated aggression" I have ever seen at an archery event.

At the time, I had not yet started my round, but when I did, two of the organization's officers assigned themselves to my group (even though they had already completed their rounds). Those of us in the group using the binoculars were watched as if under a magnifying glass, AND had to listen to a constant barrage of negative comments about the use of optics.

I'm a life member, and supporter of this particular venue, but never have I been made to feel so uncomfortable at an event. I have not been to a 3D competition since.

I've been using binoculars at shoots for many years. Not once has my shooting group held up a group behind us due to it.

If you aren't shooting to compete, then why do you care?

If you are shooting to compete, and are worried the binoculars will beat you, then I can guarantee you have more (a lot more) to worry about than just the optics.

Rick

Stick shooters generally shoot fairly fast you pull up drawn down and let target have it. When guys with binos dilly daley usually diagnosing shots and discussing with each other that tends to hold up the shooting line and backs things up.

I know you paid your shoot money the same as everyone else as well so lets not be a pain in the rear end here either. You know what you do if you are like this and you are the cause of the back up. If you want to be a burden then go to the back of the line or tell others to shoot through if you feel the need to act like this.

That's why guys are disliked! Who are like this! You don't have to ask questions about this its common sense. Many shoots have guys like this but mostly wheels shooters I found if they can't knock a Nate off a fly s butt they are unglued.LOL

Lmao, they use animal targets and even a phony name to make em bowhunter shoots. Ur not supposed to see the rings,lol. Bio, and some of the people here make it very clear it's a target shoot, so put the orange dot on it n get rid of the binocs and backups. As usual guys can't compare apple's to apples I'm sure alot of the guys who don't score are poor shots just as alot of the binocs toting target archers are bad shots. That has what to do with the discussion about binocs? Ibo and their type "bowhunters shoots have nothing to do with beginning so why not stop pretending and put an orange dot on the targets. The rings are not painted on because you're not supposed to see them because they're made for bowhunters shoots. Again if they're just target shoots either use a dot or order animals with visible rings and stop pretending. Fresh, and into wonders why attendance isn't higher.

I've got no problems with anyone using them, I did for a stretch, and my scores did improve. I just prefer traveling light and moving fairly quickly through a 3D course. A few weeks back I got behind two young guys shooting compounds, they spent 5 minutes each looking at the kill zone before each shot, after each shot, and comparing notes before they went to pull arrows. Then spent another five minutes at each target discussing their shots. I was about to scream "Hey guys, the flipping thing is not moving!" It's gets ridiculous after a certain point. I'm not a member of the club though, so I just quietly stewed instead.

I shoot 3D with my 32 year old son. He shoots a cbow and uses binos. I shoot my stick, no binos. We move right along. Nobody tries to pass us. lol However we have had to wait for others, binos or not, stickbow, cbow made little difference. Fat old guys in bad shape just poking along pretty much covers the reason for the holdup. Young lean hunters haul @$$ through the course.

Your inconsiderate if you say anything to them yet they are inconsiderate for taking so long . Indoor shoots are the worst the guys with the binocs hold up the whole line I've seen some shooters have to look 3 times at a target then they hold so long you start to wonder if they are stuck at full draw . I shake my head at the whole compound thing what its gotten to be.

I've never used binos at a shoot, but never begrudged those who did. Hadn't ever thought about the fact that they could be used as rangefinders.

Binos can, but don't have to, slow down the shooting. Folks do a lot of stuff that can impede the smooth flow of the shoot -- not being ready to shoot when it's their turn, taking an inordinate amount of time to make the shot, often talking with their buddies instead of shooting, standing around at the target interminably while scoring and doing more kibitzing, etc.

I find those behaviors more annoying than folks using binos for a few seconds before they shoot. Hmmmm, but that range finding feature?

Miss shots hold up groups more than binoculars looking for arrows. That is just part of a shoot. Target companies should make some targets for the don't care crowd, no rings or insert. Those targets should be a little cheaper too.

There is one aspect of bino use that I also find annoying, amusing at first, but ultimately annoying. Those are the folks who spend an awful lot of time sizing up the target with the bins and then shoot mostly bodies, or miss the animal completely. At least if they didn't use binos, we'd have more time to look for their arrows.

Wow...always something to complain at!! I use binoculars for 3D shoots, and with so many brands of targets being used today, I want to see someone remember where the scoring rings are.

A lot of guys do take 3D's very serious, and when thousands of dollars are on the line, you'd best know exactly what ring you're shooting for!!

So now that we've bashing binoculars, lets bash the guys that really hold up lines by looking for arrows!! That's my biggest pet peeve, to walk up to a target, see a bow in front of the target, and five or six guys walking around looking for arrows...if you can't see them from the target, move on!!

"Guys who gap can use the binos as rangefinders. It is done all the time. They mark the focus knob and when the image is crystal clear they know the yardage or very, very close."

That's basically is against the rules. You can't mark the focusing knobs on the binoculars. It's one form of cheating and you know what happens when you get caught cheating, you're forever branded a cheater. If they want to win that badly to expose themselves as a cheater than I feel real bad for them.

SteveB, it can be an odd thing, some people like to win and if they lose they may feel cheated if a guy was using binos to range. I shot air gun field target for a few years. Those folks are crazy competitive. You are allowed to use your scope to range find. No binos or rangefinders but once you are good at it you can really shoot a great score. I learned and was soon competing and placing very high amongst folks who have shot for years. You would be surprised at how many folks thought I found a new way to "cheat"!! I am just a good shot. I stopped going to 3D shoots as it should not take 4 or 5 hours to shoot a 30 target course!! Shawn

Binos are allowed at almost all shoots I attend. Stringwalking is not. Watching shooters try and conceal the fact they are stringwalking shows how far they would go for score. Tells a lot about the person.

As long as the bino user does not stand at the stake and review his shot I'm good.

For me the whole draw of a 3d course is how the targets are placed. If it is a scored competitive event then I'd be just as happy shooting at similarly placed bulls eye targets. You still need to estimate yardage and angle.

Using 3d animals for targets really only makes sense if scored as they do at cloverdale. A hunters course.

Wow, I just got home and looked at my post. By the time spell check/ word changer got done I don't even know what I wrote is some cases. sorry guys, promise no more phone posts.

Some people can't shoot well. Theres nothing you can do about that, but the binocs can be fixed. The targets are the problem then? Themakers don't know where the kills belong? Put a dot on the kill n be done with it. You evidently want to see where the kill is or you wouldn't use binocs.

I shoot alot better at 10 to 15 yards than I do at 25 to 30 yards and there are no orange dots or kill rings on the animals I hunt.

I agree. Keep your binos at home. There's no need for them on 3d courses. Part of hunting for me is knowing where the kill zone is on any given animal and I'm more concerned with what I know is good shot placement than what the target rings show.

I suppose one could argue that if they were grassing while someone else were shooting and not during their own turn, it wouldn't slow things down. But I would have to say that is seldome the case. People who carry gadgets and devices like to use them weather they need to or not. It's rather self centered to have others waiting for you to be taking extra time to glass.

No hating here, I'm just pointing out that for me, it's all about keeping it simple. If no one else is around, have at it.

Like that dot situation a lot.

That thought some have witnessed about event folks holding up a group is unfortunate. At large events, it's going to happen for many other reasons than someone using binocs.

Used to play in some friendly golf games with some thieves (as my friend Doug Ford and his pro son Mike used to call'em). Had six to seven foursomes in the morning games and often two to three foursomes late afternoons with a few being local pros or others like me in the golf course business sometimes in the afternoon crowd. One of the players was a hot head who used to get mad about slow play. We played fast, especially when hitting off the tee in the afternoon crowd with the pros, but for the morning crowd, my partner Sid and I used to slow down and get that hot head all upset if he was in the group behind us. However that's a two way street. This winter in some local pro-ams, Mike Ford and several in my foursome would not like some slow players which showed up the events and were slow players. So it ain't what makes us slow when we shoot at events that should be forbidden, but instead, we owe it to all to do whatever we can to keep the pace flowing.

You're not hunting, you're shooting a 3D course. If you're not keeping score no need to bitch about anything. Just shoot when your turn comes up and move on to the next target after you find your arrow.

Why is it wrong to use binoculars? Isn't archery an individual sport? Why does everyone one want to be the same? If we are going to level the field then we all need to shoot the same bow, arrows and have the same draw length. Why get insecure if someone shoots better? I shoot because it relaxes me. I strive to improve my personal scores. I don't worry about others scores beyond a little friendly competition.

Blah Blah blah!! I hear it I've seen but every time I got to one of these darn shoots,,,,,I make a new friend or two!! What the heck am I doing wrong??? Lighten up its the weekend !! JeffW

I have seen laminated cards with animals and there rings. Are they ok? If so I would use that. They clip to your belt and lighter than binos.

"Just shoot when your turn comes up and move on to the next target after you find your arrow." Hah!

I agree with glf. Why not put an orange dot in the center and be done. I have never seen anyone shooting at a target with a bullseye use them come to think of it.

Lmao, why is it when you want something gone that causes backup guys assume you can't shoot. Guess when they got no good reason to not use a dot they gotta find something way to feel superior.

Babysaph, For Bullseye shooting it is for AFTER the shot.

Some bullseye type shoots don't allow them. The guys put powder on their points so they can see where they hit.

I've never been to a paper shoot that didn't allow binoculars. Never heard of one either, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone came up with such a rule. After 30+ years of competitive shooting, nothing much surprises me anymore. As 3-Ds, if someone is slower than you, ask to shoot through. How hard is that? Then again, I've never understood why some folks act like a 3-D shoot is a drag race.

OK all you competitive scoring archers, I have a question for you. It's something I've wondered for a long time.

If the scoring rings are your sole interest what is the purpose of the rest of the target? Seriously, what do you care if the target is shaped like a deer or a mt. goat?

Wouldn't you rather just shoot at a standard colored target face with rings?

I liked those hunter round NFAA targets where the entire face was black except for a white dot. A lot of fun. Just shoot where I can get the time and gas now with old recurves and feel fortunate to do that, so probably won't see any more dots in my time. Do put a good looking dot with marker in the center of my paper plates I kill out back. Sure like those dots.

Most 3Ds I attend have a mix of target mfg types as well as some rebuilt targets with manually etched scoring zones. I know where the kill zone should be but also like to know for sure where the scoring zone has been designated. If I am shooting first, it takes a moment to confirm with binos. If not shooting first, I can glass targets while others shoot. If others get upset, they are getting upset at the fact that I tote binos as opposed to slow things down. If so, they mistook me for someone who gives a crap about their petty issues. Shoot well, have fun and the best way to avoid drama is to ignore it!

"If the scoring rings are your sole interest what is the purpose of the rest of the target? Seriously, what do you care if the target is shaped like a deer or a mt. goat?"

It takes a different kind of focus to aim at an 11 ring that is on a giant Moose target. But yeah...most of the 3d thing is entertainment factor. But if all the targets were a standard size, it would give you a consistent gapping method and would make the shoot easier.

Red Beastmaster and GLF - Far different shooting at a bright contrasting dot or a target face than it is trying to focus on a spot you want to hit on a near solid color background. I find 3D's value for hunting practice for that very reason - not to learn anatomy. My hunting success rate did not get to a comfortable level until I stopped seeing legs, creases etc and learned to focus on a spot picked for the arrows best path thru the animal - a spot which varies with every new opportunity given. By using the binos to find the x in the scoring ring, I get instant feedback in how well I am doing that.

RB,

Good question. Personally, I don't care if the targets look like deer, coyotes, or whatever. For me, the value as it pertains to hunting is forcing me to pick a spot where one may not naturally exist. A bullseye target doesn't teach that, and it's an important skill for someone who intends to hunt.

I have never cared enough about my score that I would go to the trouble of carrying binos at a shoot. Most guys/gals that are serious about scoring have shot enough tournaments that they SHOULD know where the scoring rings are located. If not they can hold up the line by looking at all the picture cards showing the kill zones that are clipped to their quiver!

"The best laid plans of men and mice, gang aft aglee."

Anyway, I was getting out of competitive archery about the same time Jason was starting...during the mid 80's. Of all the shoots I went to I don't remember but a few who had binoculars and then they only used them after they shot and were away from the line. In PSAA shooting back then they were not to be used on the line. Keep in mind though that Pennsylvania State Archery Association (PSAA) never joined the NFAA though they followed most of that organization's rules.

Yesterday, at a field round in Berlin, Pa., we shot with two compound shooters. Great guys and we had a good time, but they used their binoculars after every shot...two guys, four shots per target, binos after each arrow. It was a pretty casual shoot I'll admit but it took us 2 1/2 hours to do 14 targets. It would have been impossible, and not even justifiable to leap targets since the ones in front of us were doing the same thing. So it is what it is, but it has also convinced me that I likely won't be doing those shoots this summer. Five hours per field round is a bit much for this old man.

In the 70's we would start at 1PM and be done before 4PM, and that was a well attended shoot. I don't want to say that it's just the binoculars that are the culprit but nothing else much has changed but that. So if the NFAA allows them at the stake, I can only imagine how much time that adds to a complete round. I can understand now why attendance is down at many shoots today if that is the typical protocol. Oh yes, one of the guys had a stool with them also. Again, these were great folks and I don't mean to take anything away from them as individuals. It is what it is, as I said, but that pretty much is my last one.

I'm a competitor, so when I go to a 3d, and it's a competition with a prize, my goal is to shoot the highest score possible. So binoculars will be used because the scoring rings are not always consistent from Target to Target.

If you go to a 3D shoot that is a competition where people are competing for a Podium place, you have no Soap Box available to get on to complain about their methods.

Just one more reason I don't do competitive 3D, and likely why attendance is down over here in Pa. the past five years. Even the guys I shot with were complaining about low attendance at theirs, and adjacent county clubs. I haven't viewed the National attendance levels on 3D shoots, but I hear clubs are becoming worried about it and wondering what to do to increase shoot attendance. Maybe someone should be complaining somewhere.

George,

The first time I attended the NFAA Outdoor Nationals I was surprised to see the pros got off their course about the same time we got done with ours. I was expecting them to take a lot longer than the rest of us. Granted, none of us were flying along at a casual pace either (this is nationals after all), but they took about the same time we did.

I shoot Traditional and I usually glass after every shot. My eyes aren't good enough to spot arrows all that well out to 80 yards, and it's nice to know if I have to adjust my aim. There's nothing more annoying than shooting a smoking tight group for 12. :)

As far as 3-Ds, one club around here tries to ban binoculars in the 90s. Their attendance dropped so fast and low afterwards that they had to back off their ban. Some people still never went back after that just out of spite. It's a shame too, because they put on great shoots.

I never took binos to an NFAA paper face shoot. White or black spots are easy to see at all distances. 3D is what got me to tote binos. At 30 yards or less, it only takes a couple of seconds to identify the scoring rings unless it's low-light with a black target. Be that the case, it only takes a few seconds to realize and put the binos away. Another good example is the leopard target. It has a bunch of spots. It comes in handy to identify which spot is the right one at which to aim.

With the naked eye, unless the 3D animal targets are fairly new & fairly close, and have well defined lines of the scoring rings I can't see the lines, especially the 12 or 11 ring lines.

With the naked eye, seeing the scoring lines on targets, that have a lot of holes in them is usually impossible, unless they are pretty close.

That's with having 2015 vision. I can't imagine how difficult it is for folks don't have real good eyesight.

I glass the target prior to my turn at the shooting stake. I find body characteristics, that I can see naked eye, which fall on/in the spot I want to hit, then I just shoot at the characteristics/spot I have picked, and can see without the binoculars.

Gary (GLF), just to be clear - I was not saying, that folks who don't use binoculars are bad shots. I was saying if a person is afraid someone is going to beat them due to the use of binoculars, then they might have more to worry about their shooting, that just that.

Rick

In ohio binocs weren't allowed at 3d shoots till the 90's.

I carry binos and probably only use them on 10% of the shots on a course. There's nothing more frustrating than picking your spot, absolutely drilling that spot, than walking up and realizing you were way out of the 10 ring. Around here several clubs really utilize brush and angles to make courses more difficult and if your shooting for score you need to know where the rings are.

I find the delays on courses aren't necessarily equipment related they're attitude related. Compound shooters are slower because they standards are much higher and many folks are shooting staff for stores and companies. They take it seriously and this effect trickles down to the local guys. Trad shooters tends to run the course much faster but I've lost count of the number of groups that are slow. Looking for arrows, 8-10 shooters in a group, people insisting they're gonna "get their monies worth" and shooting a quiver full per target, etc...

Binos are just an excuse, most people getting bent about them would get bent about something else. You can't make everyone happy.

Binoculars used correctly DO NOT slow down a match. I shoot some TBOT matches and you can use binoculars but, not at the stake. At many of the matches you can shoot more than one class. The guys who win and place high use binoculars and generally shoot several more classes than most of the "flinging arrows" shooters. When I go to a match that allows you to shoot several classes, which I do, I never care if the people I shoot with have binos, I care if they can hit the target. Chasing arrows slows you much more than binos, and if you can hit the target but don't care about the score, don't complain about the people who do.

Maybe the IBO needs new rules.

To reduce slow shooting, allow 1 min shoot cycle, not 2 minutes.

To eliminate binocs, standardize the location of the 11-10-8 ring location: ie elevation mid-day, and "windage" centering the 10/11 ring on the vertical imaginary line from the back part of the front leg- or maybe 2"to the rear of the rear of the front leg.

It makes no sense to me to read replies such as "I shoot to hit the real kill zone of and animal target.". If the 10 ring is on the shoulder joint, you have a built in problem that shouldn't be a problem.

Synopsis:. Less time per shot. Standardize 10 ring location, then no binocs are needed.

Wow. This discussion is bordering on the absurd because the solution to the 'problem' is so in-the-face obvious...and has already been mentioned (and ignored) several times.

Everyone is trying to shoot accurately at a pre-selected "spot". This doesn't change with the venue or target type...Vegas, blue dot, bags, foam 3D 'animals', daisies in the back yard or live breathing game. It's all the same objective...to find and hit the "spot". How to find the spot? Make it easy to see (doh!)? Paint it, put an orange sticker on it, wire it up with a battery-powered blinking light if you want but make it visible. Once you see it all that's left is to shoot at it, walk up and score if you want, pull your arrow and your DONE. On to the next target. No binocs, telescopes, silly time-wasting delays or whining necessary.

Simple.

I have a 6X Monocular. On the targets that aren't obvious, I just glance to see how it lines up with the legs.

"Keep in mind though that Pennsylvania State Archery Association (PSAA) never joined the NFAA though they followed most of that organization's rules."

George, the PSAA certainly was an NFAA state organization until it lost its NFAA charter around 2004, along with VA and MN. The PFATA was formed at that time.

"...To eliminate binocs, standardize the location of the 11-10-8 ring location: ie elevation mid-day, and "windage" centering ..."

CORRECTION...

"...ie elevation MID-BODY..."

" No binocs, telescopes, silly time-wasting delays or whining necessary."

Still not a drag race and the only people whining seems to be the "anti binocular" crowd.

Still not a drag race and the only people whining seems to be the "anti binocular" crowd.

I'm not anti binocular, just applying some common sense. One doesn't need binocs to see the spot if the spot is glowing like a neon light. Keeping it simple makes good sense.

Adding a glowing neon light would defeat the purpose of 3D for more than a few. Makes even better sense. And before you ask why/how, read mine and several others posts above

Lots of people shoot 3d for score and lots shoot them for hunting target practice. So why should all the clubs toss all 3d targets with orange dots? Can you imagine the backlash they would get for the hunting target pactice shooters???? They would probably lose a lot of shooters.

If you want to speed things up go back to 50 percent let off on compounds so they can't hold at full draw for five minutes.

The suggestion to mark the exact center of the scoring ring has nothing to do with hating target shooters or formal shooting style...although I'm starting to see why some do. And it also has nothing to do with ruining hunting practice for anyone. If putting a quarter-size orange stickydot on a foam 3D 'animal' gives you the willies then I can only imagine what drawing down on a real animal does to you...so you have bigger issues to deal with.

You probably won't hit a spot that you can't see. Not on purpose anyway, lol. Why not MARK IT BRIGHTLY so EVERYONE can EASILY SEE IT...and so make the game about how well you can shoot instead of how well you can guess or memorize. There is no GOOD argument against this approach. Pay no attention to the binocular manufacturers behind the curtain.

Let's look at this another way. If shooting a standard paper target would you rather have those colorful contrasting rings on them (like that blue dot "X" and the Vegas yellow center) where 'the spot' is CLEARLY visible, or, would you prefer having just a plain white sheet of paper with a giant circle drawn on it...where you'd have to 'guess' where the middle is?

Mark the spot.

All competition shooting with roots in hunting training are developing the same way. We can see it at the shotgun range, rifle range and bow range. What they shoot at the range are too heavy and specialized for hunting. One need 2 shotguns, 2 rifles, 2 bows to be happy on all grounds. The one making his living from selling double his income and do everything he can to tell you you need 8 lbs barebow, stabs in all directions on your compound, fat barrel on your rifle, a long heavy beast of a shotgun........ In a consumer's paradise it's hard to make up your own mind and set your own standards but we don't need a 3000 USD binocular to shoot at 35 yards.

"There is no GOOD argument against this approach"

There have actually been several good arguments made against that approach. There is an added challenge to shooting a solid target. 3D is not bullseye, but it seems that some cant quite grasp that. Binoculars don't slow down a match, if done correctly, people can't seem to wrap their head around that either. I invite anyone who disagrees to come shoot a round with me and I will teach them how to use binos and shoot at a reasonable pace.

" All competition shooting with roots in hunting training are developing the same way"

There is a lot of truth to this statement, my binos are only a couple hundred and my bows do double duty, but if people can afford special equipment, it doesn't bother me and helps the archery manufactures stay in business.

Maybe you folks live on a different planet than I do but in my world 95% or more of the 3d shooters are using compounds. For them having a marked spot makes perfect sense.

I guess im looking at them as if theyre still bowhunter shootz, which they evidently are not. At a bowhunter shoot 1/3 of the skills needed to win is knowing where the vitals are, second is being able to judge the yardage, and third is to then be able to hit where you aim. That's what always set bowhunter shoots apart from field archery. I guess bowhunter shoot went with the inner kills being added in the 90s. Anyhow since its nothing to do with bowhunting and since a ton of people don't go because of 5 and 6 group backups it made sense to me to turn them back into bowhunter shoots by either eliminating binocs or the inner ring that also has nothing to do with bowhunting. Maybe shoots like the trad world already have all the shooters they want. Just seems to me you might lose a few shooters without binocs and even inner kills but you'd gain 20 times what you'd lose, at least. People for the most part don't like standing around all day in the sun. How many show up at the trad world. Maybe it's working and I just don't know it,lol.

If you want to speed up 3-D shoots put giant rock piles or steel plates behind the targets. No more hold ups by people looking for lost arrows. Just pick up the shrapnel and move on. :)

SHOT CLOCK. Done :)

And to keep it Trad, if you don't get the shot off in time, this is hanging next to the stake

JusPassin we live in the same world. In other countries one can see more normal weight bare bows than 8 lbs bows and compound together. Remember, a dead fish can float downstream, but it takes a live one to swim upstream.

This topic just keeps sucking me back in. 8^)

The scoring rings on the 3D targets are often NOT really anatomically correct, especially when shooting for the smaller 10 & 12 rings. Couple that with target placement/angle, and shooting into the scoring rings will often be well away from an actual anatomically placed vital shot.

I've seen target placement so radical, that to try to shoot into even the larger (generally 8 ring) scoring rings carried a huge risk of glance off resulting in a ZERO, even if you made a great shot.

Now, keeping that in mind you are faced with two options:

(1) For the competitive shooter, he/she wants to get the arrow into the highest scoring ring possible, and without being able to see those rings prior to the shot, it's just not possible in a lot of instances. That's where the use of binoculars come into play

(2) For the shooter who is just there for hunting practice, then just shoot for where you think will give you the best anatomically correct vital shot, and judge the result for yourself. Don't worry about score. You're not in it for the win anyway. You're just shooting for hunting practice, so why should score matter to you? Remember now, you are shooting for fun/practice at what is more often than not billed as a competition, so be happy for your opportunity to practice, and "congenially" allow the competitors to do what they have to do (within the confines of the rules) to achieve the highest score the can produce.

`````````````````````````

Yes, there are lots of things, which could be done to eliminate the need for binoculars, and I've seen them all done at one time, or another.

Just to mention a few of those things: (1) Always place the targets where the scoring rings are full broadside to the shooter.

(2) Paint the scoring rings, so they are all plainly visible to the shooter without optics.

(3) Paint only the center small ring, so it is plainly visible to the shooter without optics.

(4) Make all the shots very close.

And more.

The things is - I've heard just as many (if not more) complaints from those type target sets, as I have heard complaints about the use of optics.

The complaint, that always puts a smile on my face is ("Y,all made this just to easy, and it was boring."), usually coming from the guy who complains about the use of binoculars, can be seen looking for his arrow behind the target on multiple occasions, and never score above the middle of the pack.

Point is - you will never be able to make everyone happy, and we should all consider ourselves "Very Fortunate To Have" these venues who are willing to put in the work (lots of work, including blood sweat & tears) for us to have our moments of shooting enjoyment.

Whether that shooting enjoyment is rooted in competition, or just for the practice, someone else did all the work for you to experience it. 8^)

Rick

I shoot 3-Ds nearly every Saturday and Sunday, often at two different courses, with my brother and a friend. The youngest of our group is 71, the eldest 83. Two of us use binos.

We complete a two-arrows-per-target course of 30 targets in 2.5 hours, usually less. Your group of 3 shooters will never have to wait for us, ever!

How do we do it? Well, a miss is a rare event with us, we never use the binos after a shot, and most bino use occurs while another shooter is making his shot.

Mark

No bino's for me. But I don't care to control others options. I have been slowed greatly by bino carrying groups, but that gave me more time to converse with partners and stand in the cool of the shade for a minute. We are all different, thank God, millions of me running around this world would not be good.

I often shoot with a compound shooter, he has his bino's I've even seen him with laminated cards showing kill zones of different targets. First shoot it irritated the heck out of him I didn't pick up a score card, I discovered partway through the course he was keeping both of our scores.

I enjoy shooting with him, he slows me down greatly, which is good, it's not a race. When we are done he asks me where I think I scored. I say in my cocky tone, better than most, but not the best, and I'm always right hehe.

oz

Jrw theres lots of ways to speed up anything if you insist on comparing Apple's and oranges. Fact is at a big shoot shoot the good shots are by far the minority so good luck with banning them,lol.

Now thats another solution. Allow only the first shooter to use them at the stake. Everyone else should have plenty of time while waiting. Unless thing have changed only the compound shoots allow them in Ohio.

Amazing amount of pissing and moaning ... and nobody seems to mention the family/kids aspect of time. Don't their shoots have kiddie stakes?

Some folks are afraid of competition (so don't want to keep score). Why do they come to 3Ds, which are almost always competitive, and then complain?

Some folks want to be grouped with "friends" rather than meet new folks. That's inherently suspicious, not to mention fearful.

Because if you eliminate the fun shooters and only have the serious competitors you wouldnt have alot of these 3d shoots. People arent gonna waste their time if theres very little interest.

GLF you're wrong.

a) competition is inherently FUN

b) that competition doesn't have to be "serious" but if a person doesn't want to see how he/she stands compared to other shooters why even come to 3Ds, which are inherently competitive events.

Some local clubs here stopped giving out trophies. The atmosphere seems more relaxed, and easier on the organizers. I haven't really noticed a drop in attendance either.

And, for the record, I have seem guys with bino's and rangefinders digging for arrows also.

Good points Rick Barbee!

Also, get there early and get ahead of everyone.

I enjoy going to 3D shoots, local and out of state, I've shot with compound shooters, guys using binos, guys with rangefinders, guys that carry a chair around the course. I've stood in line for 15 or 20 minutes to shoot at at a foam critter. I've helped shooters look for their arrows and there have been times when shooters have helped me find mine. It's a 3D shoot, if it takes 5 hours or 1 hour to shoot, I don't really care. I look at how fortunate I am just to be out there. If you can't enjoy that, you need to find another hobby. But, if you want to shoot at orange dots, why not just have square target with the orange dot right in the middle. Have fun, shoot straight, happy hunting, Love Mike

So JK,

the only reason to attend is to compete?

wow, I compete enough in this life, and I am as competitive as any other person, but 3d tends to be the place I choose not to compete. I have to admit I do wonder where I would place when all is done.

I can think of many other reasons to attend other than to compete. I think I would enjoy a day just flipping burgers at a 3D, serving others and seeing smiles, I would see many friends and make many new. That would be a much better day than standing at the stake with my binos and a score card stressed out because I cannot decide exactly where the 10 ring was before 30,000 other arrows wiped it out.

Pick the optimum spot for a kill, fling your arrow, and enjoy your day, the optimum kill is not always in the 10 ring if you have a quartering away shot or elevated shot. I would rather get a realistic kill than a 10x anyday. But I agree with Rick we can enjoy for different reasons. Some days setting up the targets with friends is more fun than shooting.

oz

GLF,

"Jrw theres lots of ways to speed up anything if you insist on comparing Apple's and oranges. Fact is at a big shoot shoot the good shots are by far the minority so good luck with banning them,lol."

Obviously it was tongue in cheek.

But when I get stuck waiting for someone who's organizing a search and rescue party for yet another lost arrow, and then they complain about my binoculars, I find it a bit funny.

Oz, thank you for understanding. Your post is well thought out. Maybe some of those that want to compete would rather us fun shooters not to show up. I don't feel the need to conform to the standards of others. Everyone should enjoy archery the way that they want.

" Maybe some of those that want to compete would rather us fun shooters not to show up"

Red, to be honest I don't care why anyone shows up at a match, whether for "just fun", hunting practice, or to try to actually win or improve their match scores. What is annoying is when one group pisses and moans about how the other group tends to shoot the match. As long as people shoot within the rules let them shoot how they want. I have shot with all types and tend to always have a good time. I am always wanting to shoot the highest scores I can, so I use binoculars. I shot with a couple of people this weekend that just wanted to hit the target (many times they didn't). We all had a good time. In general I think this whole topic has been much ado about nothing and maybe even a great troll. I encourage everyone to go to a match, smile, have fun, allow faster groups to shoot through, don't worry about others legal equipment, and have some more fun

I don't think there's such a thing as "fun shooters." I think everybody wants to get better and to do that they have to know what "better" actually is. Therefore competition.

I didn't say competition is "the only reason." Obviously.

I also pointed to this thread's apparent lack of interest in the kids...who are often VERY competitive and yes, often need help with shots and finding arrows.

People who don't feel just a little competitive have ice water in their veins.

jk,

My group of friends who actually have fun at shoots refuse to keep score. We have no egos that need inflated by a piece of paper. We avoid competitive people because they are generally a PITA to have in the group.

We might call a shot like shooting for the eye or try shooting away from the stake through the brush. Other than that it's just a couple hours of comeraderie and laughs. We high five the good shots and rib each other after the bad.

"We have no egos that need inflated by a piece of paper."

Shoot for fun. But you have an attitude about people that want to compete. I compete against MYSELF. I know I am not going to beat the top shooters. But by keeping score, I know what I was capable of doing THAT DAY rather than just remembering my best shots.

I am capable of shooting really well....SOMETIMES. I want a true benchmark of what I can do.

Jrw I don't look for arrows. Kinda hard to miss a whole target at 30 yards n under. I used to compete till the poor sport whiners accused me of cheating behind my back. As i said in another thread i talked a club president into scoring for me, won that event and swore I'd never compete again. So this isn't a poor shot complaining. As for no such thing as a fun shooter, it's easy to tell fun shoots and shoots that don't draw fun shooters by the low attendance by compaison.

Many of these posts are exactly why I haven't shot a 3D tournament in over 25 years. When it became a "target archery" event instead of practical bowhunting practice, I opted to just go shoot real target archery events where there was no guessing where the highest scoring ring is located. ;)

So long as 3D has pointless "hidden" scoring rings, you guys have fun. If I want a target event, I'll shoot a target event. If I want to practice hunting shots, I'll shoot my backyard 3D target from my roof or take out some leaves and dandelions with my judo points.

Jk if not for fun shooters alot of shoots would never exist. I don't know about in your neck of the woods but around here you get low attendance at shoots with nothing such as expensive targets and vendors to draw fun shooters. And if attendance is too low most clubs won't put forth the effort to make the shoot special.

Go to Comptons sometime where they don't keep score and it usually rains and see if attendance is down.

Most people go to shoots to have fun and hang out with their friends knowing that they have no chance to win. 5% of the shooters win 95% of the shoots. It's the same at each club...the same handful of people always win. Most clubs will tell you than most of their complaints/problems come from the competitive shooters who want to bitch and complain about the scoring lines, so and so's foot was not touching the stake when he/she shot, someone was using a range finder, etc.

“Jrw I don't look for arrows. Kinda hard to miss a whole target at 30 yards n under.”

I’ve seen some of the best in the world do it. Maybe you're better.

“I used to compete till the poor sport whiners accused me of cheating behind my back. As i said in another thread i talked a club president into scoring for me, won that event and swore I'd never compete again. So this isn't a poor shot complaining.”

No, it sounds like you’re just complaining because you don’t like people who shoot competitively. This type of “my way of I don’t like you” is not doing traditional archery any favors. “As for no such thing as a fun shooter, it's easy to tell fun shoots and shoots that don't draw fun shooters by the low attendance by comparison.”

Not a point I made, so you’ll have to address that somewhere else. But it's wonderful that there are events for both. And by the way, I've seen more than one IBO world champion shooting at Comptons. Two of them have even done seminars there.

No one dislikes the target shooters. This is about one more reason for backups. You can't make everyone a good shot to eliminate looking for arrows but you can get rid of binocs. If nothing else eliminate the need by getting rid of inner kills. 2d and 3d shoots did fine without either for over 20 years, and the best shot won then also. Also we helped backups by putting a time limit on arrow hunting, something else to think about.

GLF,

The funny thing is I heard these same arguments against binoculars in the early 90s. One club even did it. And what happened, other than attendance dropping like a rock? People started using those little cards with pictures of the targets and scoring rings, which took twice as long as just looking through binoculars. So the club eventually allowed binoculars back in...to reduce backups. It was hilarious.

Backups on courses aren't a binocular thing. They're a courtesy thing. I've seen more backups at traditional shoots due to huge groups of people de-quivering on every target or looking for lost arrows than I ever have because someone looked at a target for five seconds through their binoculars.

Besides, how hard is it to ask someone to let you shoot through?

It's obvious that a little competition increases participation.

Robust personalities like to compete. Kids like to compete.

We have increasing trad (and weirdly, field) participation. People are hungry for opportunities to test themselves.

No sniveling.

RE: no binoculars at our group's events:

In the early years of our group, "Strictly Sticks Traditional Archers", binoculars were used. By a few, but, still used.

In recent years, we had one or two persons who used binoculars for every shot, including the shots taken by other persons. These folks then called out what your shot was in relation to scoring zones, and THEIR shots, even before the shooter approached the target to retrieve his/her arrow.

Often, these couple of folks were shooting with folks new to them, and new to our events. And the new folks simply didn't appreciate the "I scored better than you did" attitude.

Yes, the other folks could have not shot with the bino-folks. But, the bino folks often called out shots FOR TARGETS BEFORE OR AFTER where they were shooting, calling back or ahead to the Archers at the previous or ahead targets. At times, it was hard to avoid the particular folks....

Took a whole lot of the fun out of the experiences of many.

So, the Crew decided to say "No Binoculars" at our events. And for the most part, attending folks have respected our "rule".

Yes, the occasional Archer might have a pair with them, but they have asked first, and we have explained our reasoning beforehand, telling what has happened in previous events for us to create the rule.

Cooperation, understanding, and a little bit of wiggle-room, have made our events more enjoyable since.....

And we've had no more complaints.

Harry, You just needed a 'don't be an idiot' rule :)

"Harry, You just needed a 'don't be an idiot' rule :)"

If that were the case there wouldn't be much of a turnout. We are all a bit "off"!

HC's traditional club promotes the fun side of archery. Score cards are there for anyone to use but there are no awards. This is why they get 80 shooters on a cold snowy winter day.

Everyone is a winner and there are no whiners.

HC, how's that for a t-shirt slogan?

"“Jrw I don't look for arrows. Kinda hard to miss a whole target at 30 yards n under.” "

I shot this past Sunday with two guys who do well at IBO in this area. They both managed to goose-egg at least one target, and this was not a championship-level course.

If all 3D targets were anatomically correct there would be a lot more shots passing under them. As a guy who struggles with the vertical I don't need that!

;-)

Not bad at all, Beasty! I'm jotting it down for the eventual 2-Day planning meeting sometime in the sometime future!!!!

See ya at Pine Hill, IF NOT SOONER??!! I won't have binos with me, my glasses are thick enough.......

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