If the spirits of archers past speak to you and make your arrows automatically go exactly where they need to go, then this thread isn't likely for you :)

At the TN Classic, I got a lot of 'low 8's'. I was getting a quick range estimation and holding for 11's. At some distances that can work (and for mostly getting 8's it does work)

But if you are only getting quick impression of yardage, it can be safer to hold in a way that takes advantage of your trajectory. For instance on a long shot, you could shoot slightly shorter than you think it is and aim a little high so take advantage of the drop. Or on short shots, taking advantage of the rise.

I ended up with a couple of high 5's on long shots that I overestimated by a few yards.

I am working on more accurate range estimation. I read this somewhere and it is working:

First, get a first impression guess. Then find the halfway point and guess that and see if it supports your first guess. I will sometimes imagine 5 yard increments up to my halfway point. If I am really crazy I will mentally 'step off' the whole distance.

Any other tips? Of course it all gets harder on complex hills....where maybe you are standing on a hill and shooting to another one and there several voids between you and the target. You have to envision a flat plane between you and the target. I just block out the ground and imagine a bridge.

My work is outdoors and I do a lot of job estimates for area/sq.footage. Because of what I do I don't have to know the distance to within a fraction of an inch or even an inch(s) for that matter. I've been doing it for so long (40 years), that many times I don't even use a tape measure, but just pace off yardage. When I estimate range for shooting (past 25 yards...under that I'm on "auto") I can usually get to within a yard of what it is out to about 80 yards. Like you say, terrain, shadows and other factors that can "fool" the eye you must be aware of.

One thing I do for those far shots (not hunting...I don't take them) is to know my point on and then gauge for holdover based on that. I was at a 3-D last week with another Leatherwaller and we shot a caribou target that was 80 yards I just made the kill zone doing just that.

I guess ultimately it just takes a lot of "doing", just like most things in life!

John, so many variables when estimating distance for target 3D shooting. For me, same process for ever target that the terrain allows. I ground judge when possible in 5 yard increments out to the target, then backwards, then half way. Lighting and tunnel shots can really trick you. If shooting after allot of others have already shot use your binoculars to see if the majority of the arrow holes are either high or low, if the evidence shows that a lot are mis estimating the distance then you will too and you should add or subtract 2-3 yards regardless of what you estimate. Also, certain targets appear to be larger or smaller then they actually are and can give you fits especially when ground judging is not possible.

Another tip would be to take your time when making your estimation. Move a bit left and right of the shooting steak to get a different prospective. Pay attention to when others shoot as to how long it seems to take their arrow to get to the target, see if it makes sense as to your estimation.

At the speeds we shoot with stick bows 2-3 yards is Hugh, especially beyond 25 yards. Don't always risk the shot.....some 3D targets have more or less 8 ring area near certain edges of the 10 ring so I sometimes aim accordingly, in other words I might not always aim for center 10 but rather pick a spot center 8 instead.

I hope their is some info there that is helpful. Good luck.

Tom

Another thing I do is when I'm walking in a parking lot or wherever I will pick a distant spot, estimate the range and then count my paces to see how close I was. This is good practice, especially if you do it under different conditions.

I was fooled by large targets at 30 yards. I am just not used to large targets. That's when first impressions will really fool you.

A funny thing....my Father in law is a retired football coach and is convinced that his yardage estimation is perfect. He was out with me (I was shooting and he was just walking with me) and his yardage was WAY off in the woods on uneven ground. He isn't an archer. His hunting his mostly birds and squirrels.

jsd -

I'm really glad you're taking your archery to the next level, but you're still overthinking this.

If you need "range estimation" in a 30 yd or less environment, it just means you need more experience shooting at those distances. A good bow (190 fps) will not show appreciable changes from 28 - 32 yards, and I've tested that with sights.

If you're at your regular range, you should know the distances from the shooting positions to the (any) target by experience alone. At a new range, you rely on the same experience and extrapolate, the best you can. The more you do it the easier it becomes even at "unknown" distances.

Was it you who asked a similar question on another forum? If so, the same answer holds: set your "aim" for 15 yards, and that will work for 5 to about 20-25 yards. For 30, just hold a little higher.

Viper out.

Ever hear the expression to get your eye right? Eye to computer(Brain) but if either short circuit then you will be sideways.LOL

The top pro archers are accurate +\- 1.5 yards out to 55-60 yards. Tons of practice and most of them own one of each target that they see on the ranges.

I just recently got back into judging distance for 3D when I switched from instinctive to gap and string walking. Easy to get out of practice when your not doing it weekly.

They key to accurate range estimation isn't how you do it but how often you do it. Join a club and use it often shooting the targets from different yardage each time. Some guys just look at the target. That doesn't work well. If a target is in an open field it will look closer and even more so if it's large, a target down a narrow lane in the woods will look farther. I just used 5 yard increments to the half way point then doubled it the years I shot sights. Now I let my subconscious use what I taught it back then. You should be able to judge out to 50 or 60 and not be off by more than a yard or two with practice. At our 30 yard max 1/2 yard error max should be easy to attain. I never depended on the little tricks for they have a way of only working most of the time.

There is a point here where it makes sense to shoot known distance as much as you can. The eye/brain/body learns theses distances for recall if done consistently. We hear all the time about shooting marked distances. "well you don't have signs in the woods!" Well that is true. But we sometimes underestimate our brain's power to deduce distance in absence of a sign, when we practice a lot at distances we know.

I know from my own experience that I got a lot better in the woods on game when I became a pretty good field shooter where distances are marked. What we call instinctive shooting is the brain recalling those distances and allowing our body to utilize that information. I think it's pretty simple but we can make things more difficult than they need be at times.

And if you wasted a lot of time on baseball diamonds like I did as a kid, you may remember that the pitcher is 20 yards away, first base is 30 yards, and second base is about 42 yards from home plate...and if you played softball, the pitcher is just a shade over 15 yards away. I can still visualize all those distances quite easily.

And most importantly, never second guess yourself. Once you decide the range you need to have confidence in it. Your concentration needs to be on your shot and not on whether your range is right or wrong.

When I train for a big tournament, I'll shoot local 3D shoots or ranges and try to guess the target before checking myself with a range finder.

I learned my 20 yard distance and go from that 20 yard distance to the target. Learn the targets used for that shoot, learn the score rings. Use a range finder, the stepping off stuff isn't as accurate as most guys think.

Nothing wrong with a range finder either, just use it when you practice as well. It all goes in to the noggin for recall later.

Viper, My problem is I am trying to shoot all 11's. I don't get that with a fixed crawl without 'fudging'. But going for 2" accuracy on every shot was causing me to score lower. I guess there's a point where you aren't ready for accuracy when your accuracy is better than your range estimation.

Here is my 5,10,15,20,25 yard walk back with a 20 yard crawl. The white target tack was my 20 and I was aiming at that elevation for all the shots. And this is with my target rig 43# shooting 280 grn arrows.

And this gapping with my 'trad recurve' setup with 9gpp arrows. I'm sure I cheated my 25 up just a little.

So the moral of the story is 'don't try so hard to shoot dead nuts on' inside of 30 yards?

jsd -

Walk-back tuning really requires a 10 to 50 yard range, to get the type of data to tune a plunger.

Yes, you're going to have to fudge it with a fixed crawl if you're serious about 11's. I would just be happy with 10's and take the 11's as gravy.

Viper out.

So yeah...I'll start using g conservative 6 o'clock hold and then dial it in tighter as my consistency improves.

And I am sure also that shooting uphill and downhill was magnifying my range errors.

"If so, the same answer holds: set your "aim" for 15 yards, and that will work for 5 to about 20-25 yards. For 30, just hold a little higher."

I would highly suggest this method for anyone shooting against me. :)

Wow, if I ever started thinking about yardage shooting my recurves I would be in terrible shape. I shoot enough to just pick a spot and shoot. I never guess or try to figure out yardage with my traditional bows. Compounds on animals I do try to get a range if I can but most times I can get close. Shawn

Some good answers above, but a perplexing question. Maybe those really great were used to the same targets and form situations everyday.

Had a coach my first year shooting years ago and he coached his wife who was one of those multiple year national field archery champions. She shot long hours everyday at on our four field archery ranges. This would lead me to believe, that besides her athletic skills and determination (she had a terminal illness through her best shooting years), shooting the same targets over and over, she worked out her form and the targets were also familiar to her under competition. Like champions in other sports. Don't think it was a quick situation that made her a great shot, but she knew how she had to practice daily, and just did an incredible amount of it.

Think there will be a host of answers on this one Just - great post!

Same here Shawn. I figure my subconcious will put my bow where it belongs,altho i think my sight shooting couple years help my " instincts ".

JRW- "If so, the same answer holds: set your "aim" for 15 yards, and that will work for 5 to about 20-25 yards. For 30, just hold a little higher." I would highly suggest this method for anyone shooting against me. :)"

Yeah....I do shoot better than that.

I just tried an experiment. I only used 3 crawls inside of 30 yards. "Close, middle and Far". That actually works pretty well. I went out shot random yardages from angles and elevations I don't normally shoot from and it was good. But would still result in some 8's. It wasn't good enough for a small Turkey target in the 25 yard range for instance.

Of course I quickly started using "Close and a Half" and "A little longer than middle" crawls :) But it did break me from counting yards and it could work.

I tried rough guessing some long shots in the 28-45 yard range. I was always "close". But if I just go ahead and take 10 seconds to get it right I will be at least on a dinner plate sized target.

I think a healthy balance of meticulous math based shooting mixed in with "Informed Instinctive" shooting is good for me.

And to be clear....the shots I was unhappy with at the TN Classic weren't UGLY (except for one equipment failure). If I got a 5, my windage was correct and I hit just outside of the 8 ring. Same goes for my 8's and 10's.

JSD,

That could work well. I shoot a lot of targets at 2.5-yard intervals (20, 22.5, 25 etc.). About the only time I deviate from that is if I think the target is a "thin" or "fat" 20 (which would be 19 or 21 yards). When I trained specifically for IBO 3-D I would nail it down to the yard, but since I mostly shoot NFAA Field and don't work on distance estimation as much anymore, I have to ballpark it sometimes.

"I was fooled by large targets at 30 yards. I am just not used to large targets. That's when first impressions will really fool you." John, Don't look at the targets while estimating distance.

Luckily, some of those have 3 foot long 8 rings :)

If you gap shoot I think for most 3D inside 30 yards it is best to setup with a point on of 25-26 yards and reasonable arrow speed. Optimally under 25 your max gap would be about 5" and out to 30 your hold over would be the same.

On a deer/bear/etc you can just estimate whether the shot is point on, less than, or more than. I draw so the point is on the bullseye initially at full draw than float up or down accordingly. With a setup like I described you will almost always be holding inside or on the periphery of the 10 ring. After. While it becomes fairly intuitive and really allows you to focus on the 11 ring.

With string walking I map the trajectory of each crawl at distance closer and longer. For example, use a 25 yard crawl at 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, and 30. Find out how high or low you hit than repeat the process for different crawls. You'll find each one overlaps to a degree that would keep you in the 10 ring. Once you have that knowledge you can play the odds on a shot which you are uncertain of distance.

The hard part of string walking is how quickly the arrow drops past your crawl. Knowing this, I find stringwalking to be a bit more punishing if you judge short. If anything I find it is better to add a hair to your estimate. I'd rather a high 10 than have it peter out and drop low.

Also, remember that 11 ring is only 25% of the 10 ring, in most cases maybe 1-1.5" in diameter. Aim for a center 10 and enjoying catching the 11 ring.

I wouldn't break it down into such small increments. A good constant is 20 yards for me then I add as I see it. George and viper had good points. That's the beauty of 3d unmarked shooting though. You've got to practice so your mind can do the calculations. It really does work. I'd love to watch a guy that could hit 11s all the time.

Can be nice to walk around with a rangefinder in the pocket, pick some objects guess the distance and check with the rangefinder. Not on 3D competition but when you have a walk in the park.

JSD, I'm curious how many targets your seeing over 25 in 3D. I shoot 20 & 25 the same, and I know I never really see shots over 25 in Leslie tournaments.

the range finder is great for stump shooting,, guess the range,, and then verify with the finder, great practice for stumps,, and learning your ranges,,

There was a fair number of 25+ at the TN Classic. I shot the practice range a lot as well and there were more there. The IBO Trad Worlds are coming up and I expect that course to be harder.

There are some local ASA shoots here In Nashville. Their Trad stakes are 25 max. I'm thinking about shooting "Open C" which is 40 yard max and half known yardage and half unknown.

KNOWING the max is 25 yards makes my shooting A LOT easier. It's that drop that happens just after 25 that can get you into trouble

Local

Thanks JSD

I'd use a range finder.

I never use a finder I shoot a stick at VERY short range. My son does, but he shoots a tricked cbow out to 60 yards.

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