This may be a button topic, but I think it needs to be asked.

I haven't hunted in several years due to a lot of reasons, but this year I've decided to start again, with small game and upland game birds.

I've also started to watch hunting shows and videos and I have a questions... What happened to the ethics of shot placement???

Seriously, regardless of bow type, I was taught that you never take a shot unless you were sure of your point of impact. You don't take "quartering to" shots on game like hogs and bear. You never chase wounded game immediately after a shot. I'm sure there are many other lessons that we learned.

I've seen paid professionals regularly take quartering to shots that impact 5 ribs back on hogs and deer and they call it a good shot. Shots to the front edge of the hip on a quartering away shot being called a good shot. Now they will in most cases readily admit that the shot wasn't great, but in my mind you shouldn't have taken the shot.

Running shots at 75 yards??? I don't care how good I am, I would never take a running shot at 15 years much less 75 yards. Your odds of a clean kill are significantly degraded.

Am I old, off the mark or what?

You're just not getting paid to kill stuff on video.

You may recall back when Charles Barkley was upset about being told to improve his behavior because he was a Role Model; he protested that he was not, and had no intention or inclination to be one.

Not exactly Ted Williams or Curt Gowdy.

Unfortunately, we all get the celebrities that the masses deserve. If you want to see ethical behavior, demand it of yourself and expect it from those around you. And turn off the TV. Those guys will either get the ratings they need to continue or they won't, but you're not going to learn anything beneficial from them, so no sense in supporting their cause....

Their sponsors won't get it until the sales start to decline, but you could always write letters of protest to whoever is footing the bill..

You're probably on the wrong website...go to Bowsite.com.

Ethics are a personal commitment to one's self. I do not discuss mine, they are not necessarily correct for the next hunter.

What's worse is that many guys defend these clowns. They defend guys taking 65 yard shots at bedded deer, facing the shooter. They defend guys taking 125 shots, at live game. They have all kinds of reasons to defend these shots, mainly just because the celeb is a good shot and can hit a target at 200 yards it's OK to shoot a deer at that distance. And when it gets tough, they play the "Fred Bear and Howard hill did it" card.

Just take shots YOU are comfortable with. If there see some good points to be taken away from the hunting shows, use them. Lose the rest. You seem to know right from wrong. The most important thing is to practice and become comfortable and proficient with whatever equipment you plan to use. That first day out hunting, you'll be a rusty hunter with good shooting ability. You can polish off the rust during the hunts, and the more you do the more you will recover and renew, or improve upon. Eventually you'll be in your A-game.

This topic has been chewed on like Rover's favorite piece of raw hide, but that's no big deal. Obviously, while you weren't hunting, you were also not watching the hunting shows/videos that were/are popular. Sorry to say, it "aint nothing new", but GF pretty much is dead on. Good luck getting back into hunting, it sounds like you still have your idea of what "ethics" are to you.

What gets me is going to 3d trad shoots and theres small trees or brush in the way. They say its more "hunting" like scenario. My answer is I wouldnt shoot through crap like that in a hunting situation.

GF, my concern isn't for me... what is being taught to youngsters watching these shows? The only thing I can do is to teach my kids and grandkids what I think is right.

jk... what? Why would I do that? This wasn't a wheel bow question.

I've shot many clout competitions and have hit the pin at 185 yards but I'd never take a hunting shot that far out. LOL Now if I was fighting the French in the 100 Years War maybe.

kenn1320, I know. I would never take a 80 yard shot with my recurve or longbow and the number of IBO club sponsored shoots I've been to that don't differentiate between compound vs traditional/barebow is shocking.

The first problem is watching these shows its a lot of show business that goes down you have to realize.

If you know or learn anything about arrow hit animals you better learn this! That it can be a butcher shot at times and the guys who don't take chances generally know it can and don't risk chances.

Now whether a chance is worth it or not one gets to decide at the moment of truth as well.

Every one can say well i'll do this or that or I won't do that they have done. That sounds like the correct answer but when your faced with things they some times wind up differently.

These shows you have to take with a salt block not just a grain based on what they show and a lot of times say as well.

Now for the kids no one knows what it really does unless you have children and you have seen first hand what they say and what they themselves have pulled.

To bash the TV shows based upon ethics don't you really think that's a little hard when they all get bunched together in one pot. There some that are good and some that are terrible.

Lets just say this it isn't limited to just hunting either. If some of the things were to be shown in some of the other sports it could be hurific that I have seen first hand and involved in personally and been around others when they had done things.

This is the world and life we live and things are brutal at times. Wait till you start arrowing animals again and then you will know and find out.

Have you ever read hunting the hard way or bears field notes?

lol...

Shooting at live stuff, no one can ever be sure of where their shot will hit. Hell the old timers, like Fred and Howard and a bunch of others just wanted to get an arrow in something then use their skills to find it, hence the 100 yard shots on some game. Running shots, long shots were all part of hunting back then. Ethics are a bunch of crap as they are what one does when no one is watching, what is ethical for some is not for others!! Agreed this a "Dead Horse" and it gets beaten to death!~ Shawn

Don't forget Saxton Pope and Art Young. They launched 125 yard shots at lions and other game in Africa. The one photo the tree the lion was in looked like a pin cushion. But that was a different time.

The old days were different in at least 3 ways. Life was harder for everyone. All the guys I grew up with saw combat in WWI, I don't think that made them callous, but 60 000 casualty days may have given some perspective.

There was still a subsistence factor in every day life.

They were developing bowhunting. The guys who went to Africa with Pope, came back thinking African game WAS NOT an appropriate target for bows. They didn't get a contract for a Grand Slam bow and promote the practice. Since then we have learned a thing or two.

I think hunting is more ethical these days in general, though there remain a lot of hunters who say stuff like animals don't feel pain, or that respond to any idea they should be treted well with a comment about PETA.

In all these years of deer hunting I have taken 3 shots longer than what most would consider an ethical range, over 40 yards. All three were double lung or heart hits and short blood trails, but all of the other hundreds of long shot opportunities had problems with either the situation or me, so I did not try. What we do not want to do is waste the deer. My shortest kill was 18 yards with my average about 20 yards, I would take that 18 to 25 range most of the time. Being a still hunter or ground only hunter, I seem to always mess up and spook deer when they are under ten yards, I have lost count of how that has happened. However, when it comes to pheasants and rabbits, I love taking long shots. A flying pheasant under 30 yards is easier to hit than one walking around on the ground 50 yards, but chances of getting closer and still getting a clear shot off is minimal most of the time. The archers of old probably took shots at big game with about the same reserve as I would take at small game.

Television is teaching a lot of crap. 60-70 yard shots. Flavor-of-the-month garbage broadheads. Etc. etc.

TV is *entertainment*, powered by advertising dollars. Unfortunately hunting shows use live animals and kills are needed. So corners get cut.

"The only thing I can do is to teach my kids and grandkids what I think is right."

My point exactly.

But you know....

Yes, many of the pioneers of modern Bowhunting took shots that most of us would now be quick to condemn, just as we condemn those who take shots as Stunts because there is a camera there to document the glory and an editor back in the studio to erase the mistakes.

But on the other hand....

Those 70-you're at target on an NFAA course are probably there because at some point, that was considered to be a realistic hunting range. And there are a few Wallers around who have taken game very cleanly on 60 and 70 yard shots.

For that matter, there are a few guys around here who are more competent at 60 and 70 yards then a great many bow hunters actually are at maybe 20, given the fact that it is one thing to plank arrows into a target at 20 yards outback, and quite another to be keyed up and taking shots at unknown ranges on wired-up game animals.

I guess my point is that focusing on distance only makes about as much sense as focusing solely on what Brodhead 100 chooses, rather than taking into account his entire set up, experience, woodsmanship, tracking skills…

So do the right thing, encourage others to do the same, and will get through this thing together…

ill probably get flamed for this but here goes. Im going back to traditional this year after 10 years with a compound. My compound is a bowtec 101st airborne #70 at my draw it shoots around 300 fps With .370 spine shafts tiped with zwickey 130 no mercy single bevel plus adaptor makes roughly 160 gr head and i GUARANTEE YOU at 30yds I can bust both shoulders of any deer living in Virginia!!!!

On the other hand i haven't settled on wich traditional bow ill be hunting with this year. Still searching for (the one) but it will be #50 or less my shots will be 20yds or less. Broadside or quartering away slightly and gonna try 160gr cutthroat heads

Which ever weapon one chooses to take afield is his or her personal business. But modern and stick bows are NOT comparable and one must choose shots and arrow placement depending on the weapon beying used

Turn off that TV.

when I started in archery, everyone I knew shot field rounds once or twice a week. Those 80 yard targets were not a big deal after you learned to shoot with a system. That's why the shots were longer, without comment, in the old days. Now most archers never shoot further than 20-25 yards and think that 40 yards is impossible. I know exactly what my point on distance is with my bow and the arrows I shoot. That's like having a scope on your bow for accuracy at distance. Even in the sagebrush country I hunt in, the distances for deer and bear are usually less than twenty yards and elk are a bit further because they are usually not solitary. I have never watched a t.v. "hunting" show and am sure I never will. I have been doing my thing with a bow for almost 60 years with good success. My ethics are my business and I don't discuss that stuff on the internet. The internet is a poor place to discuss Archery hunting ethics, I think. Too many divergent opinions and subject to public controversy. If you are happy with how you hunt, legal in your State or hunting area, and teach your children or companions right, there is no reason for a lot of discussion. Just my opinion.

I would also ask, why are you watching those shows. They have been discussed here often and they are not how most real folks do things. It's like the Entertainment Tonight version of so-called hunting. Recently another couple of those infamous show makers was caught poaching. Surprise? Hardly. You can't fix stupid so just take care of those around you and be an example. About all a guy can do anyway.

And by the way, be careful not to be one of those guys that takes a small segment of the sport and casts that light on every bowhunter. That couldn't be further from the truth. Your question would make it seem the entire sport is going to hell.

I don't watch the junk on tv that offends me. The chest beating and screaming and hollering does nothing for me. Also when the recovery is after dark I don't get that either.

GF is spot-on. The hunting channels need to fill air time and they are willing to show unethical shots to do it.

What George said, exactly.

Your title grabbed my attention.

When you referenced hunting videos/shows... ya lost it immediately and I read no farther. I'm a real hunter and they have no influence on my shot selection requisites what...so...ever. Next topic.

Here is perhaps a view of the older generation taking longishshots. With all respect to Larry and the other venerable citizens here. In the 50-60's it was not unusual to see very few deer back east. Practiced archers might well have shot at game at distances we seem not to understand -1. They shot field courses with those distances and were comfortable and 2. That may have been the only deer they had seen. In KY in the 50's we were excited just to find deer tacks on the farm. Now my relatives see deer daily. There are so many deer back east now compared to 50's, younger hunters cannot comprehend it.

A guy came in last month and claimed he had to shoot a deer last year at104 yards, because his leg was in a cast and he could not walk. Now that is extreme- even for a wheelie!

A guy came in last month and claimed he had to shoot a deer last year at104 yards, because his leg was in a cast and he could not walk. Now that is extreme- even for a wheelie!

And i would have said,that No,He didn't HAVE to shoot at 104 yards, but that he chose to shoot at 104 yrds.

And when it gets tough, they play the "Fred Bear and Howard hill did it" card.

And Yes they did,but apparently,Howard hill changed his view on this,at some point.

Here it is in his own words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_E1nuxPw90

I wouldn't say he is all that reformed, he is talking to people who haven't even considered shooting, and mentions 50 yard shots. Based on the recent Lancaster shoot, the best shots in the world can't be relied upon at much over 30 yards.

There is a distinction between looking at what happens on TV after the shot, and what is ethical. Ethics have to do with the decision you make before the shot. On TV, they guy may have thought he had a shot, and he makes it, and it isn't great. Probably for the best if he says something reasonably positive, if it isn't a lie. Not ideal but we will get him, sort of talk. But as bad result does not mean an unethical shot, if you thought you had it in the bag, and it just didn't turn out for the best.

I was taught that ethics are rules imposed by society, while morals are rules imposed on us by ourselves.

In my mind the popularity of this type type of "reality" television clearly shows the state of our society.

I dislike risky shots with a high chance of wounding if the animal can even be hit at all. I mean I REALLY dislike them and I advocate for responsible shot-taking to reduce hit-and-lost animals. But that said...

There are times when I think we hunters are about 3 big jumps removed from the ARA mentality. To explain: It's as though we (including me) just have so much regard for the individual animal and the species that we can't accept wounding and losing. We all know the archers of yesteryear were sometimes about flying arrows and getting a broadhead buried...then go from there. I think many of us fancy those guys as being super-ethical when in fact they were super-willing to shoot at animals period. This whole thing about taking only close, responsible shots and NEVER risking a bad hit out of desperation is a development of the last several decades. I tie it to the fact we hunt more for sport, AND that societal views of animal worth have changed.

We're hugging, petting, crying and displaying our kills like they're a gift from heaven. They aren't. They're a product of Earth and our hard efforts to kill them. It's hard not to appreciate the animal whether it's walking past at 12 yards or lying dead at one's feet. But I do question (at times) the wisdom of treating game animals with respect which sometimes exceeds that given to people or pets.

In the end I try to kill cleanly. For me it must be close. I don't take long shots and hunting with a partner who is a willy-nilly arrow chucker would never work for me. I guess that means I wouldn't be exactly thrilled to hunt alongside some of the archery heroes of yesteryear...in today's world. Different times and different ethics for sure.

"I was taught that ethics are rules imposed by society, while morals are rules imposed on us by ourselves."

Well..... No.

Morals are a set of "guidelines", we'll say based on the assumption that there is a God who has set down Rules based on God's Own Authority.

Ethics are based on the assumption that we are all equals and therefore it is wrong to treat another person worse than we wish to be treated. Another way to describe it is whether everyone would be better or worse off if everyone chose to behave in a particular fashion. That's not to say that nobody ever comes up on the short end, but as long as the system is fundamentally Fair and it's not the same people Losing for the same reason time after time...

It's not Illegal to huck an arrow at every animal you see and make only a token attempt at recovering it. It may not even be Immoral, because that's dependent on individual religious beliefs. But it's Unethical, because if that kind of behavior were to result in 2 or 3 or 5 or however-many dead animals per tag filled, then we would most likely see shorter seasons, fewer tags, and lousy hunting for those who drew. Likewise, it is Unethical to ban any activity for All based on the bad behavior of a minority of the participants.

So…… getting back to the OP here, it absolutely IS Unethical to take low- percentage shots on game because it squanders a commonly-held resource. And it is Unethical to portray yourself as some kind of hero when you take an ill- advised and generally pointless risk and get away with it.

I suppose it also says something about human nature that some people will sit there on the couch and talk themselves into the idea that it's reasonable for them to attempt the kinds of shots that they see their "heroes" taking on TV. Makes about as much sense as me watching a Michael Jordan highlight reel and deciding that the Bulls would've been just as well off with me on their team instead of him because I've been practicing my dunk every day for two weeks.

StikBow, grew up in farm country in the Lowell area of MA during the 50s and 60s where there were no deer around. As a boy, I spent countless hours in the woods. I saw no deer.

Now there are deer everywhere and most of the farms are gone. Kind of ironic.

Shots over 20 yards are pretty rare here.

Jawge

BTW -

I have to agree with Mr. Dill that this pseudomystical native-american-wannabe bullschitt has gotten WAY out of hand. Mostly a steaming crock served up by the Disco Channel to make it easier for Suburban America to get their head around the idea that all Meat is some part of a dead critter.

Makes as much sense as the guys who hear about a 6 1/2 YO buck taken on a late-season antlerless tag and talk about what a "shame" it is that he had dropped already. Yeah... Real tragedy when an animal is killed and there are no bragging rights to be had and no trophy for the Man Cave.

And the guys who make a shot and act like they've just vanquished their arch- nemesis in a hand-to-hand battle to the death? If I'm ever surprised that I hit what I was shooting at, I hope I'll have the sense to quit. If I'm ever ecstatic because I F***IN' KILLED THAT M*****F*****..... I hope someone will see to it that I am placed in an appropriate institution.

What are ethics? We have to remember animals we are killing have the same nerv system we have, they feel the same pain we feel. We have to do or best to minimize the pain.

"What are ethics? We have to remember animals we are killing have the same nerv system we have, they feel the same pain we feel. We have to do or best to minimize the pain."

We obviously should always strive for the quickest most humane kill as possible, given our choice of weapon, but if minimizing pain is the goal, then all game should be head shot with a high caliber rifle.

Also animals don't feel pain in the same way we do, but that's for a different debate.

"We're hugging, petting, crying and displaying our kills like they're a gift from heaven. They aren't..."

I guess we can agree to disagree on that point.

If you have ever have the misfortune of cutting/stabbing/impaling yourself with a razor sharp cutting instrument you will quickly realize there is no pain involved at all. You may not even know you have injured yourself until you feel the warmth of your own blood wetting your clothing. I have butchered many hogs with a razor sharp knife slid in to cut the arteries off the top of the heart without so much as a squeal coming from them. Just my real life experience.

Whether I agree with every opinion that I've received here or not doesn't matter. Thanks for your input and feedback. The best thing I can take away from this is for ME to think before I post something that probably has been played over till it smells good and dead! LOL

Thanks! :-)

Morals are what our conscience allows us to do. Ethics are what public opinion allows us to do. A shot allowed by morals is different from person to person according the their shooting abilities.(assuming no one wants to wound an animal). An ethical shot is whatever the leatherwall and anyone else who doesn't hunt or is limited by their shooting ability says it is, tree huggers n all. Remember an arrow from a modern compound gets to a 40 yard animal in about the time a stickbow arrow gets to a 20 yard animal. Think about this. It's unforgivable to cause a deer pain, but its ok do shoot running rabbits n squirrels and have them jumping around in pain with an arrow stuck in them. We don't even worry about quick kills in small game, blunts or judos re the order of the day. Deer are cute and small game is so fast that no one gets to see cute in them. Field courses were set to practice hunting shots. The difference is the distances they practiced and learned to shoot and the ones we limit ourselves to. In the 70's bowhunter courses came about and field archery was going out fast in Ohio. The courses were out to 40 yards, as at that time 40 was the ethical hunting distance. And 40 yards was a chip shot for most shooters. Now its 20 with a few 30 being max. Pretty soon ethics will have us hunting with tranquilizer darts at 10 yards n under. jmo

Oh and to the guy who says the worlds top archers can't shoot much over 30 yards, you evidently have never seen field archery or the olympics.

Ethics: Consider this. A blue grouse in Montana gets shot with a Judo at 25 yards and is only winged, falls to Earth knocking itself out momentarily, until the hunter goes over, picks him up, looks into the birds blinking and fearful eyes, and then twists his neck to finish him off, throws him in the back of his truck, drives to a bar, has a beer, and goes home and butchers the bird, puts him in a frying pan, and enjoys him for dinner (some would think this is cruel and inhumane) VS. A chicken lives in a 1x1 ft chicken wire pen among 17,500 other chicken in a 14' x 20' room with one food source (plus growth hormones), and can barely move until it is humanely killed, processed, and packaged, shipped to Safeway, and is purchased by Gramma Harriet for her grandchildren to come over and enjoy on the Barbie that Saturday (most would think this is humane and acceptable). Which is more ethical? To me, the first scenario is far more 'ethical'. The question of ethics is all about what we are taught. And now days, the general principle is that 2nd scenario which is what we are taught in modern society. Neither one is right or wrong. Its just a matter of opinion based on what we were taught.

OK, here is an actual situation that JUST now happened. Last fall I shot a yearling doe and an adult doe legally with shotgun, butchered them myself, and took the ribcages and vertebrae over sever hundred yards behind our house, and left them their for the coyotes to finish off. I buried the heads out of 'respect'. We have a neighbor who hunts, his land right adjacent to ours. He has a tree stand on what is probably 10 feet from our line if not actually on ours, and has his posted signs well into our land, about 100 feet into ours, but I have never said anything about it so as not to create 'animosity'. Five years ago, he shot a small fork buck that was standing on our land, and it ran over to the spruce windbreak nest to our house, dies, and was never recovered, not even attempted to be looked for by him. He is a 60 yo man. I never brought it up to him. Last fall, on opening day of bow season, someone shot a large caliber gun right behind our house, so I called the neighbor, got his wife, and asked if it was Dennis. It was not. But just now, my wife called and said that Dennis, the neighbor, just confronted her and asked if I shot two punt deer and left their carcasses over by the corner of our lot. Like I am supposed to justify anything to HIM??? First of all, what the hell is he doing on our land in the first place when he is posting his (and probably ours)? And he has the nads to question my ethics of shooting small deer when he doesn't even bother to recover the small buck he shot ON OUR LAND? My wife is upset with ME that the neighbor is thinking I'm being unethical. Go figure this bs all out...Now I'm HOT!

'puny' deer... AND, he mentioned that I called his wife to ask if he had been shooting on our land which obviously he was still upset by and it was on his mind. I wish I lived where there are NO NEIGHBORS.

Play by the rules, turn of the TV, forget NFL.

If you let him encroach on your land, you may be in a situation where he can seize it.

We are to be good stewards of the resources. To me, that also means taking game with the most sure shot we can for a quick, clean kill, having the patience to pass on low-percentage shots and waiting till the odds are better in your favor. I watched a video of a guy hunting w/ longbow recently and he took several quartering-towards, running and other low-percentage shots, and the masses was back-slapping him saying "nice job, man!", etc. Out of many shots the video only showed him recovering one of those animals. Pathetic if you ask me. Work a farm for several years and you'll see life and death regularly. I do. Livestock gets treated the same way, when the time comes for killing/butchering, life is taken quickly and humanely and with respect. And Ive seen a lot of hunting/outdoor shows where some idiot says "I'm thankful for this animal that gave it's life for me". I roll eyes and call BS...that critter didn't lay down and die for you, you took it's life! It would have gored you to death with it's antlers if it could have to survive...it didn't walk up to you and say "here, man, kill me, I'm willing to die so you can eat Bro". Its funny how modern societies touchy-feely, animal rights whacko feelings have even crept into our modern hunters minds.

I have been hunting and killing thousands of animals. In nature reactions after the pain are different. A prey animal are evolved to escape the attack a carnival to fight back and we see a very different reaction from this two groups. As human we tend to look for human reactions and behavior. I have seen human behavior when I hunting baboons. One time I have to sit down to stop the breakfast from going the wrong way.

There are actually some good shows on TV. Watch Melissa Bachman(sp?) North American Whitetail can be good. Everybody busts on Stan Potts but before he became a "TV Hunter" he killed 3 whitetails over 200"s and he still knows more about whitetail hunting then most ever will. As I said, Ethics are what you do when no one is watching. Teach your kids like I was taught. Hunt hard, follow the game laws and always try to make a clean kill. It does not always happen ecsp when we are young. I know I have taken my fair of stupid shots at big game, some worked out well others did not. I have lived and hunted a long time and I am not ashamed to admit I still sometimes take some unusual shots. I can say this though, I have never taken a shot that I did not think I was not going to kill that animal at the time. I am always confident I am going to kill it. I wish it always worked out that way!! I will also say this, nothing ever goes to waste in nature!! Shawn

I'm only responsible for my behavior. If you you allow TV sports shows to teach your children about hunting, that's on you.

FWIW, I think most TV today is pretty lame.

your only mistake: you watch hunting shows.

Have a Frank, honest, and polite conversation with your neighbor. Best done on neutral property, be giving, and forgiving.

Set boundaries, then be willing to enforce them.

"What gets me is going to 3d trad shoots and theres small trees or brush in the way. They say its more "hunting" like scenario."

I know guys that hunt, that it is a real hunting scenario..and the results were not good. Wasted half a day of hunting helping one guy track a poorly hit deer that was never found.

You are all three most probably.

Leigh... I agree with what you've said.. Don't know how old you are but you sound like many of the the folks I hunt with. Can't find people like that any more.. the new ones are being ruined by the rubbish you speak of on t.v.

We can only set the best example we can.. Sometimes some of the smallest things we do or say can be very revealing and have a great effect on someone..

chris

Morals and ethics are sociological terms. Yes, they do prescribe certain behaviors, some imposed by societal norms, others self-imposed. Regardless, the definitions of those terms offered so far do not jibe with the sociological definitions. And, they don't agree with each other. Maybe that's why we have so much trouble achieving consensus on appropriate hunting behavior. We see and describe the world differently.

woodsman (Chris) I'm 52 and was raised and taught hunting ethics in south Florida. My dad said the best shot was the one not taken if it wasn't the right shot.

I would say that "most" hunters are not slobs, or poachers, or hail-Mary shooters either. We tend nowadays to put everyone in a box that we think is real, whether true or not. Television hunting shows represent less than one-thousandth or less percent of those who actually hunt in this county, so how does one draw a correlation to the masses? It's because the shows, which are garbage to start with, offended their sensibilities. Again...most people aren't like those morons...they don't have sponsors to sate and money to make on hunting.

These threads turn into a holier-than-thou treatise as well, and that's a shame. Lots of use grew up on honest, loving households that were dress-right-dress on rules and regulations. What we do in the woods is really our own business and predicated on our own standards. I have yet to see an edict by any game commission as to how far someone is allowed to shoot at game and still be ethical. We all have to work that out in our own conscience. And thank God we don't have an ethics police to dictate some of this stuff of we would never be able to hunt at all.

If you are concerned, then lead by example, and turn off those channels. You have to pay for the Outdoor Channel...so cancel it.

I went to the next town south down Highway 60 the other day, Lemars. There is the small river with in a hundred yards at times of the highway, very few woods. I saw 9 road killed deer along that 15 mile stretch. On the other side there those that think that no one should ever shoot over 15 yards at anything, based on their experience. When we see shotgun and muzzle hunters taking shot that are over 400 yards at alerted deer, or xbow, compound or trad shooters taking long impossible lob shots that is obviously over the line. It comes down to a personal choice with hopefully objective assessment of ones ability versus the situation. That objectivity cannot be learned from reading an article or watching TV. Field time, practice time and hunting experience is the only way one can learn their own possibilities and limitations. Some years I am accurate out to point on, 50 plus yards, the chances of me shooting at a deer that far is zero. There is quite a lot of difference for me from a 50 yard shot to a 40 yard shot, even more from 40 yards to 30 yards. Then when one considers the deer and what the deer may do there is a host of variables. Stuff happens that even the best shots and hunters cannot predict, even at close ranges. With in reason, I do not criticize other hunters when things go wrong. But when caught a kid shooting at a buck after hours taking shots over a hundred yards out into posted land, the crap hit the fan. Still, I would not recommend my limits on everyone else, because my limits are variables that I need to deal with on any given day.

Where I hunt the wolves rip deer and other animals apart piece by piece, start eating them when they are still alive. Many voters cheer the wolves on and protect them.

I figure any shot I take is more ethical than that.

Leigh

Sounds like you had good advice from a very knowledgable teacher.

chris

I can't remember the last "hunting show" I've watched. TV is now on my spring favorite...Stanley Cup playoffs.

But, I taught my son long ago when it comes to the moment of truth...if your thought on the shot is "I think I can..." Don't shoot. Shoot only when you know you've got him.

I still do that to this day. I pushed the envelope a few times in my impetuous youth, and learned a hard lesson. No more...there will be another opportunity.

Read my last post, no sugar coating stuff by me. That is the way I am like or leave it. Shawn

Fred Bear started the TV shows, his standards was fine. Many years ago I ask a old very successful hunter if he have some photos from his hunts. No he say a hunter kills he don't make photos.

Ethics is not a topic that makes sense to anyone except the person asking the question. As far as those TV hunting shows, don't get them here in Florida, so haven't seen them. In our summer cottage in the Adirondacks, I'm lucky enough to not even have cable TV. So as George says - Can't put a box around it, but I can get on my high horse, as below.

Never in 55 years having a bow somewhere in my house did I ever hunt something that I did not make my own decisions to shoot or not shoot right there on the spot. Everyone is different. I have seen a person who taught me how to shoot, take running shots at swamp rabbits and nail'em. His wife, who he taught, was a two time national instinctive division field archery champion, and she could shoot amazing shots, just as he did. He knew exactly what he was comfortable with shooting.

Our comfort level for shooting is inside us all, and it surfaces differently for each one of us, based on our experience, and our opportunity to shoot. I can only shoot a swamp rabbit on very cold days before he runs. Where I hit'em? - Hey, he's a swamp rabbit, so he'll eat good.

I'll take any shot I'm comfortable shooting, everyday, and twice on Sunday.

Game departments don't specify shot distances or outcomes here either but I think of the following and behave accordingly:

1) British/Euro standards that are based on serious years of hunting by people who were reasonably well educated, and owned the game are pretty severe to anyone who looses the game. Guys I know from that culture say that if you wound game, you never get a second chance (which requires getting invited back), don't know if that is strictly true. But heard it from multiple sources. That is what it is like if you apply an ownership care standard. And:

2) If you wound it you pay for it on pay to play hunts. Similar idea as to 1):

3) Game departments will charge someone for merely bugging wild animals. But the big exception is hunting. You can kill them and eat them. But at the margin of that. If you can go to jail for just hassling animals, what should be the charge for conducting yourself in a way that the animal is tortured to death and lost to the food process? It should be very heavy. You aren't shooting your deer, you are shooting the Crown's deer, or whatever passes for authority.

Consider that increasingly there is a camera everywhere, and in the hunting context it is often the hunter's camera these days. How long can it be till someone is charged because they didn't do the right thing and wounded an animal. The day may come when you have to turn in video. Stranger things are happening all the time.

I don't foresee being required to submit video, but I have often said that we would all be better off if drawing blood voided your tag.

Not that that is perfect; a few years back my brother double-lunged a cow Elk at about 18 yards - perfectly executed shot on the wrong pin, so he had a complete pass-through, good blood on the full length of the arrow, and she stood there getting wobbly and beginning to lose control of her bodily functions until the herd moved off and she went with them. He's a good Hunter and a superb Flyfisherman, but he's not Larrry; with no blood to follow and a herd's worth of tracks, he never found her.

OK, so he was imperfect as to range estimation and made the hit too high; maybe she recovered, but more likely she didn't. If that makes him a Slob, we probably all had best quit.

So how's this for a Good Working Definition?

Ethics are what makes a CO's job easy, because every hunter understands that it is his (or her) responsibility to hold himself to a higher standard than required by law.

This is the bear I killed last fall. Shot him from about 10 yds. He got up and walked a little ways and was coming back to his bed when he dropped and died. Didn't want to leave the impression that my shots are long. Don't take pictures of dead animals. Will post a picture of the last deer I killed. Took his picture just before I shot him.

Last deer I killed. 2014.

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