From: letrwalk
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Apr-17 |
|
Have a new bow, recurve, 43 lbs at 27 that likes a .600 carbon arrow with 200 grain field tips- total weight 473 grains. I know this is not a tournament archer's dream setup. But in my case, practicing for hunting whitetail at 15 yards, is this comparable to others' setup who have success on deer with a light bow? Of course, I count on a broadhead that is similar in weight to my fieldtip.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Apr-17 |
|
If you check the thread I started on "How much do your hunting arrows weigh?", you'll see where a lot of folks are going... Frankly, if the arrows are flying well, that sounds entirely reasonable to me; you're right on 11 GPP, which is heavy-ish but not Stupid-Heavy, and out of #43, that's arguably about right, especially if you don't plan on taking longer shots.
I'd love to know where you came by a 200-grain FP, though....
|
|
From: bigdog21
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Apr-17 |
|
3rivers has them
|
|
From: ky_hunter
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Apr-17 |
|
I shoot a .600 with 150 grains up front, arrow cut to 29" and 36lb bow. How short are you arrows to need 200 grain up front?
|
|
From: KyStickbow
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Apr-17 |
|
I just got a new Treadway longbow and its 43@27. 600 spine gold tips with 200 grains up front flys awesome out of it as well. Arrows are weighing in at 460 grains.
My last 7-8 whitetails have been shot using a 40# longbow....with a 440 grain aluminum. Absolutely no problems with penetration. A very well tuned arrow and sharp 2 blade head and you will be just fine.
|
|
From: 9 Shocks
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Apr-17 |
|
I used 200 grain points on .600s before. I have used 250 grain points. Depends on the bow, depends on the shooter, depends on the arrow length.
|
|
From: letrwalk
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Apr-17 |
|
Thanks for the replies. To the questions, yes, 3-Rivers is where I got the fieldtips. And my arrow is 29.5, but my results have been with using a B-50 string. I am ordering a Fast Flight string, and if I switch to it, I wouldn't be surprised if it changes up things a bit.
|
|
From: ky_hunter
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Apr-17 |
|
Id like to know the results with the ff string. Different strokes for different folks, but 200gr up front sounds like an awful lot.
|
|
From: bwd
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Apr-17 |
|
Been successful using very similar set ups. Tune to allow the use of 200+ up front due to my mental hang up of wanting a minimum of 470gr, total hunting arrow weight, and would rather it be around 500gr. But then again, that's just me.
|
|
From: Tzioxphon
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 24-Apr-17 |
|
I shoot 29 inches 600's with a 175 head, very little gap all the way out to 23 yards. CE 20-40 predators.
|
|
From: HALFCAWKT
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
I say don't question the tune if arrow flight dictates your setup out of your bow. Tune depends on your release, your draw, your brace height, and heavily on your center cut. If your bow is not cut to center, you may require that type of arrangement. It doesn't sound too out of line.
|
|
From: deerhunt51
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
My guess is with a better string, you will drop to 145-150 grain heads.
|
|
From: HALFCAWKT
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
I do agree with deerhunt.
|
|
From: mahantango
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
40# @ 27", .600 29", 125gr. point.
|
|
From: Carpdaddy
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
42#, 600 spine, 200 grain tips, 29" arrow, with weight tubes shoots well for me. I also use 500 spine heavy hunters with 300 grain up front from the same bow, total weight 700 grain. Yep; I'm one of them heavy arrow guys.
|
|
From: JustSomeDude
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
Letrwalk
Order a BCY-X string from Stilldub on eBay. A quick cheap experiment. I think you'll never look back. You should be able to tune to a 150grn. Your arrow will balance nicely and your points will be easy to get.
|
|
From: George D. Stout
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
Longer shots are plenty attainable with so-called heavier arrows. Not sure how a mindset develops that thinks differently. My arrows weigh 460 grains from a 40 pound bow, and with my split- finger draw I can be point on at 55'ish yards. 2016 arrows at 28.5", 145 grain tips, BCY-X 16 strand string. Now if you are shooting 3 under with a high anchor, then long distance is problematic, but easy to conquer by moving to split for long shots.
|
|
From: Babbling Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
Letrwalk - I put 75 grain brass inserts in my 600's and various point weights which can go to 185 grains on 28.5 inch arrows for a bow draw weights with old recurves that are similar to yours for reference. If my bows did not have the center windows of my old recurves, could probably shoot higher weights up front. Can and do shoot a lower weights up front for my slightly higher draw weight old recurve bows, and will set them up with about 155 to 165 grains up front, instead of 175 to 185 grains.
If your arrows shoot good with 200 up front, all should be well.
|
|
From: Bowmania
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
Most people shoot arrows too stiff. Why? Because carbon is so stiff that the bow doesn't put the arrow in to paradox and the non-bending arrow makes the archery thing it's flying straight. Well, it is, but not the way you want.
An example, I shoot 50 pounds at 29 inches with 285 grains up front on a 30 inch arrow. Shoots bullet holes through paper at 12 feet and 12 yards. I don't tune with paper, just use it for verification.
Bowmania
|
|
From: fdp
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
Arrow weight sounds in line> I'm one of those who won't put 200grs. on the front of an arrow (that's nearly 50% of the total arrow weight in your example) unless it has a very specialized use.
|
|
From: Bowmania
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
FTP, I understand that you don't want to put 200 grains on the front of your arrow. Tell us why??? That 'specialized use' might be getting to 9 GPP'. Then I understand.
I want a straight flying arrow. If it took 80% tip weight that's what I'll shoot.
Bowmania
|
|
From: Longtrad
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
I like loading up the front of my arrows, I have noticed they track better in a cross wind that way. I dont think your setup sounds unreasonable, I shoot something similar
500 spine 27.5" arrow with 300 grain field points from a 46# longbow
|
|
From: George D. Stout
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
It's FDP Todd, and I can get very good arrow flight with 145 up front on my 2016 aluminum...480 grains..45# bow. That combination flies perfectly and has for many decades. As far as killing deer, my experience shows that combination will end up on the other side of mature whitetails almost every time, and always two holes.
I think folks did a lot of deer killing before carbons came along, so it's not like they are anything special. Another fact is due to the stiffness of carbon, you can go lighter spine and lighter arrows and still get plenty of penetration with even sub 400 grain arrows. Ron LeClair talked sometime back about a complete penetration on a bison with a carbon arrow in the sub 400 grain weight range.
As for weight, mass is mass, and heavy foc only became popular due to carbon arrows nature of accepting heavy fronts on very stiff arrows. Not my way of getting total weight either, so I'm with fdp pretty much.
|
|
From: Scooby-doo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
I have been shooting from 43-47#s the last 3 years due to needing my left shoulder replaced. I shoot .600 spine cut anywhere from 28.5 to 29.5"s (I draw 28"s) and shoot anywhere from 190 to 225 grains up front out of all my bows. Perfect flight and I have killed around 12 deer in 3 years with my set ups. Shawn
|
|
From: fdp
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
Thank You George.
Todd, it's pretty simlle to me. If I have to have that much weight on the end of an arrow to weaken it enough to spine correctly, then by my contention, I selcted the inappropriate spine to begin with,
If I have to hang that much weight on the end of the arrow to get the weight up to 9 or 10 grs perpound (provided I felt I needed that) then I likely selected the inappropriate shaft material to start with. There are too many shaft materials, of too many different physical weights, to require me having to do that.
In addition, thre is a point where the extreme weight causes the arrow to become unbalanced during it's time in flight. I haven't played with that yet, I have other archery interests right now that are more important to me. But, that point exists. Essentially what will happen is that the weight of the point will begin pulling the back of the shaft down.
In the case of very heavt arrows, in my opinion there are better options. For instance, 9/32" sold fiberglass rod can easily be shot from bows in the 50-55lb. range, giving an arrow (at 29" overall) of around 800 grains. And it can be done shooting a conventional weight head. Been there done that. For heavier bows, a 5/16' fish arrow, or 5/16" solid fiberglass rod will easily make an arrow in the 1,000 gr, range. Again, shooting a conventional weight head. Been there done that too. And, for something in between, all you have to do is take the 5/16" rod and taper the front and or back or both to adjust weight. Depending on your intent, in my opinion those 2 options are vastly superior to raising ones anchor point to an unnatural out of line psotion to adjust point on or any other option.
And, if you don't think there is a difference in how the penetrate and perform as opposed to a tubulat material like carbon, or even aluminum, try some.
As for the penetration aspect, the most likely point of failure is the ferrule of the braodhead, The next most likely point of failure is the insert, followed by the tubular shaft wall. There are few materials that are more poorly suited to a projectile that is assembled for maximum penetration through bone etc, then tubular arrow shaft material.
Pretty basic stuff in my mind.
|
|
From: Scooby-doo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
fdp, it is not about having too much weight on the shaft to weaken it. It is about the ability to still shoot an arrow that in my case is around 8-9 gpp and and get perfect flight and better penetration. Many tests show a high FOC arrow does and will put penetrate an arrow of the same weight without the high FOC. Sorry it just shows how uninformed some folks are when it comes to carbons and high FOC. As I said before RC(Robert Carter ) kills more stuff then 99% of the people on this sight. He is shooting around 47-48#s with a .500 spine with 325 up front. Why?? Because he gets perfect arrow flight and great penetration on all those hogs he kills. I laugh at the heavy arrow BS as people seem to forget speed helps with KE as well. I have killed plenty with 8pp. even out of my "light" bows. As Bowmania said and he knows, it makes sense!! Shawn
|
|
From: Scooby-doo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
Also for the original OP, where do you get .600 spine that weigh that much. Even the GT traditionals should only be about 430 all made up. I shoot the Entrada .600 and with 190 up front and 29"s only weigh 385 all made up. Do what you you want, I know what works and what kills so have at it. Shawn
|
|
From: fdp
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 25-Apr-17 |
|
Scooby...see my first 2 paragraphs.
Your contention that heavy arrows are BS while saying in your using the heavy head to get to a certain GPP weight is a little convoluted.
Like I said, to me it's simple.
Nothing that I wrote in the above post was incorrect, at all. Like I said, been there and done that.
There are lots of ways to get to the same shopping mall normally.
|
|
From: Bowmania
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Apr-17 |
|
George the discussion is about carbon. When I shot aluminum for 30 years I always used 125 grain heads. Carbon is a different animal because of it's quick recovery and light weight.
FDP, I pretty much agree with Scooby. But I feel long winded today.
"In addition, there is a point where the extreme weight causes the arrow to become unbalanced during it's time in flight. I haven't played with that yet, I have other archery interests right now that are more important to me. But, that point exists. Essentially what will happen is that the weight of the point will begin pulling the back of the shaft down."
I used to believe this. I called it a tip heavy arrow and believed arrows of the same weight but one having an FOC of 12% and another of 20%, the 12% would go further. Adcock proved me wrong. I hate to use a crook as an example, but he was an engineer in the aircraft industry. One of the things that he said (that I understood) about those two arrows was that the arrow doesn't know where the weight is. It just uses the energy imparted to it.
In addition, he had always been into flight archery. And when his rep here followed a rock trying to float he stayed there and might still be there. He showed me statistical data from two arrows shot from a machine at a 45. One had low FOC the other high, they weighed the same and went the same distance.
So not too paraphrase you, but from your post your advising people who choose an arrow that would need to shoot something north of 225 grains up front to buy new arrows?
I would question your first two paragraphs, because they relate to the third in which you state, " I haven't played with that yet..." See my Adcock discussion.
I'll admit I haven't done any shooting of fishing arrows for hunting and they sure aren't going to split like a tube. In my experience with North American and African plains game if you hit bone you made a bad shot and even if you go through the bone you'll get the same results as if you didn't. And I don't mean ribs, because my 50 pound set ups go through ribs of elk and moose.
All this pro-single bevel bone splitting is a lot of crap. If you took the shot you should, quartering away and you hit bone, what good is going through bone going to do? You hit the shoulder blade and beyond that is brisket or worse yet the hip and if you go through that there's probably a less than 50/50 shot of recovery - way less.
Bowmania
|
|
From: Jim
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Apr-17 |
|
2X what fdp and George said.
|
|
From: Scooby-doo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Apr-17 |
|
fdp, how is it convoluted? I use a heavy head to get proper flight and still only shoot 8gpp. If it was convoluted I would be shooting a heavy head to get 10 gpp or some garbage. Been testing carbons for 17 years at least and I can say with 100% confidence most folks could add 100 grains to their point and would be better spined then they are now. I go to the Muzzy shoot with as many as 400-500 shooters, I laugh at more then half of the people with supposed great arrow flight shooting carbons!! Shawn
|
|
From: kenn1320
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Apr-17 |
|
How far out are you guys building your side plate? I'm shooting 38@30 hex 7.5 limbs. 500 spine 31" with 125gr bare shafts to 35yds. 400 spine 32" with 175gr bare shafts to 35yds. So you guys are saying I should try 600 spine with 200 up front, or something else?
|
|
From: JustSomeDude
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Apr-17 |
|
Kenn.
600 spine for 38# is borderline stiff for many people. But if you can shoot 32" 400 accurately, who cares what any one else does? :)
|
|
From: kenn1320
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Apr-17 |
|
Just trying to get my head around this topic. I would like to try some black eagle instinct shafts, but they require a 100gr insert. That puts me in the 200 to 225 range. Last yr I sent a 600 down range with a 250 on it just for giggles and it bare shafted well. Im thinking a shaft has several tunes since weight affects dynamic spine.
|
|
From: Longtrad
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 26-Apr-17 |
|
you can tune a shaft many different ways for sure, for example the same 500 spine arrows I cut to 27.5" with 300g up front also work well cut to 28.5" with 250g up front
and the same 250g broad heads fly mighty nice on a 30.5" 400 spine
just depends on what you are after and what point weight you want to use. test a few different arrow builds out and pick the one you like best.
|
|
From: Bowmania
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Apr-17 |
|
Scooby, " I can say with 100% confidence most folks could add 100 grains to their point and would be better spined then they are now." That's the best thing I've seen on the LW since I learned to tune!!!
BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE A 100 GRAIN INSERT, just in case.
Bowmania
|
|
From: kenn1320
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Apr-17 |
|
"BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE A 100 GRAIN INSERT, just in case."
Bowmania
Why not the insert? Could you elaborate on this?
|
|
From: ga bowhunter
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Apr-17 |
|
he did say 15 yds don't think any weight head will be a problem at that range I tend to group arrows better with 200 grains plus out of my 45 to 55 lbs bows tuning your brain for arrow flight at longer ranges with heavier heads will be more of a challenge because of arrow drop but for hunting at short ranges who cares shoot what flies best
|
|
From: Bowmania
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Apr-17 |
|
The reason I suggest not using 100 grain inserts or any heavy insert is because you never know what you'll end up with.
What if you guess an arrow spine and would like to shoot 225 - 100 grains plus a 125 grain head. So you screw on a 225 gr field tip and things turn out to be too stiff. you try 200 and perfect. So now all you have to do is take your 125 gr broadhead and put on a 75 gr adaptor and you have 200 grains.
But if you have a 100 grain insert you have to look for a good 100 grain broadhead which there aren't any or UNGLUE THE FRIGGIN' INSERT THAT I TOLD YOU NOT TO PUT IN. LOL.
BY the way, regular inserts are so light 15 20 grains that I don't count them in total pt weight. Your a damned good shot if 20 grains makes a difference. Even in my above example of 25 grains too stiff and perfect is a bit of a stretch.
Bowmania
|
|
From: Scooby-doo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Apr-17 |
|
Todd, I normally shoot 50 grain brass inserts and then tune with different weight heads. I have been shooting 175 grain VPA's for quite a while now. I use a standard insert(12-15 grains) so that gives me 190 up front. On other shafts I use the 50 grain brass insert and the 175 grain head and so on. I will say this 1/4" on a carbon won't really make a difference but 1/2" in length can and does make a difference. A hell of a lot more then a skinny string. Shawn
|
|
From: Adam Howard
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Apr-17 |
|
I agree Bowmania, it's about "carbon" arrows , Nice Buck !! You get it !!
|
|
From: Adam Howard
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Apr-17 |
|
I agree Bowmania, it's about "carbon" arrows , Nice Buck !! You get it !!
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 27-Apr-17 |
|
My understanding of the physics is that the Ultimate Penetrator would be an arrow with the center of mass as far forward as you can get it; that also allows you to keep aerodynamic drag to a minimum because it gives the nock end maximum leverage to steer the point straight ahead with as little fletching as possible. And since moving the center of mass forward requires a stiffer shaft, that stiffness (burdened by as little weight as possible) is going to minimize the tendency for the nock to keep driving forward (and off-line) as the point slows down when it hits the target.
I've seen high-speed footage of broadhead tests where a carbon arrow gets snapped in two upon impact with a solid hunk of bone; just like the flex that allows the shaft to bend around the riser at launch, only vastly intensified because the acceleration from impact velocity to zero happens much more quickly and violently than the acceleration from zero to launch speed. If you don't think that bending an arrow double will impede penetration, you need to reconsider...
|
|
From: DanaC
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 28-Apr-17 |
|
50 grain inserts give you options, 100 grain inserts limit them.
|
|
If you have already registered, please sign in now
For new registrations Click Here
|
|
|