Seems that whenever a 2-blade/3-blade/4-blade thread crops up, it always brings out a crop of "I want a big hole so it bleeds more" responses.

That sounds so obvious as to be unquestionable, but I'm not sure I buy it. So here is my Theory of Big Holes:

1) If you hit the animal in the wrong place, cutting into twice as much of the wrong stuff is not going to bail you out

2) If the arrow hits off-line, any additional resistance up front will amplify (exponentially)the adverse effects of your tuning issue (and not for nothin', but stop and think what that means for a guy who switches to a big mechanical because he can't get a fixed-blade head to fly straight)

3) A 2" entry wound will not spill as much blood as a 1 inch entry AND a 1-inch exit, especially if you are shooting downward to begin with

4) A spectacular blood trail on a very good hit is not nearly as valuable as a detectable blood trail on a marginal one

And ain't it curious that a bunch of guys who get so worked up about what's Trad and what's Not will choose to ignore the wisdom of broadhead designs that have been in production for about as long as broadhead manufacturing has been a thing....

So here, for your consideration:

Ace High-Speed - 100 grains, 1 1/16" X 2 7/16", 2.29 L:W Ratio

Ace Standard - 125-160 grains, 1 3/16" X 2 7/16", 2.05 L:W

Ace Express - 175 grains, 1 5/16" X 2 12/16", 2.10 L:W

Ace Super-Express - 175 & 200 grains, 1 7/16" X 2 13/16", 1.96 L:W

Now... do you REALLY think that the guys who designed these (and who took the time to build out their product line in 1/8" width increments) expected a Super-Express to get screwed onto a 200-grain shaft and launched out of a #40 bow? Or do you suppose that JUST MAYBE they figured that a guy using a #40 bow would be shooting about a 400-grain arrow and would benefit from a narrower head with a bit less angle on the blades? And do you suppose that maybe they assumed that anyone wanting a 175 or 200-grain head with almost 1 1/2" cutting width would most likely be gluing it onto a footed or hardwood shaft that hits like a pile-driver because it is being launched out of a #70 or #80 or #110 bow?

And let's not forget that Howard Hill shot bows in that weight range all the time and he still favored a 3:1 L:1 ratio.

I guess I'm getting old enough to reach the point where I think those Old Guys probably knew what they were/are doing, and yet I'm still young enough to realize that I'm not yet one of 'em.

And just one more thing...

There are tons of reports of animals that were hit well with 2-blades and they scarcely registered it because the arrow passed through entirely and ended up on the ground. These animals don't run hard, or far, or even sometimes run AT ALL. But, equal shot placement with a 3-4 blade or mechanical, and they run like they've been lit. Especially when the arrow is sticking out of them.

So, assuming that you've made a hit that does not result in a gusher... Would you rather trail an animal that's dripping 2-3 small drops of blood per second as it walks off... or bleeding 3 times as fast at 40 mph?

I have shot 48 or so deer. Some with the wide Deadheads and many with three to one heads. Whether a deer runs hard and far does not always match whether it was a 3 to 1 or a wide head. I have had a wide head pull a serious side step in a quartering tail wind that previously always behaved itself. One thing that i for sure saw with the wide Deadheads is that the hit needs to fairly square sided. They can track off line in the animal more than a Hill or a Hunter's Head. Most of my Hill heads were custom single bevels to match my left wing preference, Grizzlies were at first only right wing, but I think the Grizzly is an excellent balance of easy straight tracking penetration plus blood trail. I file sharpen mine and serrate them with a safety edge file with the single row teeth jutting out from the corner. I serrate forward from the bevel towards the flat side. I have also found that heads like the Hunter's Heads give a better immediate blood trail when they are serrated versus shaving sharp, I think it may have something to do with the metal hardness and metal type. An artery is not as likely to role away from a 3 to 1 one head that is serrated versus one that is smooth and perhaps lost a bit of its cutting teeth going through hair. My wife has gotten two holes on every deer she shot with her 38 pound bow except one using, Bears and Eskimos and 125 Grizzlies. It was a large doe that jumped the string. The arrow hit the back ham, cut the hip bone and continued forward to where it lodged into the front left shoulder. A single hole with a steady drip to the deer about 160 yards from the hit.

ACE standards have been getting it done very nicely for me for a long time

ain't broke and ain't gonna fix it

I don't really want a battle axe up front

I helped a guy track a deer he shot with a deadhead copy so plenty wide. He got liver and one lung. So we tracked about 100 yards thru thick stuff and blood ran out. We did a grid search and finally found it. It had gone about 300 yards. His hole had sealed shut by clotting blood and dirt. A snuffer leaves a huge round hole that cannot close, simple. All that and I still use a 2blade cept on bears in Ontario n turkeys. Bears hair will collect alot of blood sometimes and fat will fill the hole so you need that big round hole. I said Ontario cause the brush is so thick if you don't have good blood your proly not gonna find it. I had one that I almost tripped on had I taken 2 more steps. that's how close we were before you could see it. As for the extra insurance on bad hits I don't worry about that. But yes one more blade could hit a major artery that 2 blades might miss.

Nothing wrong with a wide cut, especially if it takes out a major artery. I guess the key is to stack all the variables in our favor- Great shot placement and angle on flat footed unsuspecting game, wide sharp heads, pass thrus, top quality steel...the list goes on.

I'm glad that some of y'all also figure in the draw weight of the bow and arrow weight. When you get older and your draw weight drops below 45 lbs., you might consider trading off what you used to shoot and pick something like Dean's wife shoots. Remember, your broadhead can't cut it if it don't get to it.

I just want a head, that cuts a hole that won't close up.

3 blade is very good for that. Single bevel are supposed to be, but I haven't shot anything with one yet.

Rick

I have bow killed around 150 deer and I am a firm believer in penetration over a big hole any day. If you do not get to both lungs or through the animal tracking can be tough ecsp. when shooting from a stand. When I was young and shooting anywhere from 75 to 90 pounds I used to shoulder shoot a lot of deer intentionally believe it or not and lost very few animals. Deer ecsp are designed so the shoulder and leg bones help protect their vitals. Super sharp 3 to 1 broadhead and I shot through both shoulders and broke leg bones. Now that I shoot 45#s or so I like the kind of high far back of lungs shot. Hit them there and no need for a tracking job, they go down in sight. The big hole theory has come from compound guys who only get an entrance hole when shooting a lot of expandables so the need that hatchet wound to get the deer. I understand a lot of folks shoot big old Snuffers like 160's and Simmons Land sharks and such but again even these folks get two holes a lot of times. As far as big allowing for mistakes or being off with a shot, that is BS. I have killed enough stuff to know that it is easier to get 2 holes with a long narrow head and two holes leads to better blood trails everytime. Shawn

I've zipped Bear Razorheads through them pretty slick, and if you double lung them, they aren't going far. It's all about accuracy and perfectly flying arrows. After that, it doesn't matter a lot what's on the end.

I've tracked very poor hits that were shot with compounds and mechanical heads and amazed at the blood and short tracking jobs. To say a big hole means nothing couldn't be further from reality. That being said, we are on a trad site and I don't think many are shooting mechanical. I just shot a deer this past fall with Simmons safari which is pretty big head. It poked out the far side from a 45lb bow, but as with other 2 blade hits I was unhappy with the blood trail, or lack of. I'm going to 3 blade.

I may be wrong but if a head is shaving sharp they bleed better. If the head has a wire edge they don't bleed as well. It's like cutting yourself shaving it's hard to stop the bleeding. Rick

I don't like to be a "rock head" most of the times, and am open to others opinions, but if anyone can tell me that they get better blood trails than I do with 170 Snuffers, I'm willing to listen. Most game goes down within 75 yards. Thanks John

When I started hunting an old man told me to shoot the biggest head that I thought I could shoot all the way through the target. That will be a different head for different people and for different game. After 30 years of shooting critters I'll add a few comments. It has to be SHARP and it has to be accurate. Stick

I've mostly shot deer with 2 bladed heads. Mostly used Zwickey,Magnus & Bear always kept them as sharp as possible, and hardly ever had a hard time finding the deer after the hit. I used 47 lbs up to 68 lb bows with the same type of broadheads.

Great thread!

I agree with Shawn (the scooby-doo guy). I want two holes.

To be even more specific about that, I don't want my arrow to stay in the animal. I want it out the off side, and on the ground, but that's a different different discussion all together.

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Now back to what I said in my first reply. I want a cut/hole that won't close up regardless of how the hide is being stretched.

Any sharp head put in the right place is going to kill the animal fairly quickly, but if those holes don't stay open, the blood trail is going to suck for you.

A multi blade (3 or more) is great for cuts that keep the wounds open, but may in some cases limit penetration. They never have limited it for me, but ... YMMV.

The "S" cut produced by the rotation of a good single bevel blade is supposed to help hold the wound open also. I'm looking forward to seeing that played out in the field for myself, but witnessing the rotation of these head in foam, and the corkscrew channel they cut, makes me very optimistic about what the results will be.

Rick

seems some Natives preferred a smaller head to take larger game,, for the penetration,,this line of thinking could apply to modern day heads,,??

Shooting 3 blades doesn't stop you from getting 2 holes unless you're shooting an ultra light setup. Personally I want my arrow to be harder to find than the deer. Common sense should let you know what head you need/want. The snuffer was invented and used by a recurve shooter who is arguably one of the best whitetail hunters there is. I like ace heads but I've killed 15 or 20 animals with snuffers and I've never hunted with a compound in the last 51 years of bowhunting. So much for the compound big hole theory.

I mentioned in the previous thread that I'm a tinkerer, and have shot critters with a myriad of heads over a long period of time...from 2 to 4 blade.

I too desire the arrow to be stuck in the ground. To that regard, Zwickey Deltas were my favs for a long time, but I've shot Grizzly single bevel for the last few years. My last I hit a little back on a quartering away shot...24 yards, got gut, middle of liver, and far side lung before exiting behind the far leg and sticking in the ground.

Other than the impact site, my son and I couldn't find a drop of blood. However, the buck was down about 10 yards past where he stopped to look back...about 75 yards away, and he stood looking back for about 5 seconds.

Granted...not an ideal hit. The chest cavity was filled with blood and the hit was devastating. The single bevel did indeed "turn" through the hit, and the hole through the liver and lung was impressive. The entry and exit holes were 90º turned, and it severed a rib coming out.

That said...while I won't hesitate to use em in the future, I've got 6 Woodsman 3 blade heads I'm jonesin' to test out...

I always wonder about these threads, I know some of the guys posting have killed a lot of deer but I really wonder how many some of the folks posting have actually killed. I have been on a few hundred blood trails between me and several friends. A huge entrance hole does not mean much if you don't get much penetration. If you can shoot a big head through the animal then of course that is better, There are not too many folks on here that shoot enough weight to push a big 1 and 7/8ths inch head clean through an animal. I again like a 3 on 1 head like the VPA 175 grainers I have shot for around 7 years now. I shot Snuffer before that and going way back shot Zwickeys. By the way I shoot that same head of of my compound as well. Shawn

If we want/need good blood trail we have to stop aiming for the belly whatever we use.

http://www.scout.com/outdoors/hunting/bowhunting/story/1427167- whitetail-deer-anatomy-and-physiology

I'm bettin' you'll be pleased with those Woodsman heads, Rick.

For the deer hunter in the USA, we're not talking heavy boned, thick skinned game here. Im not sure why the last few years some folks preach that to get good penetration and a pass-thru and good tracking blood you gotta shoot a 2 blade head unless you're shooting a heavyweight bow. Ashby's study, while valid how and where he conducted same, is not the end-all and certainly not when you're talking penetration/blood trails on much, much thinner skinned, thinner boned game. I said in another thread that Ive shot mature whitetail deer with a 3 blade, hop a few steps, turn around and try to snort, get wobbly and tip over...blood pouring out like from a spigot. A good, solid, well-made 3 blade will put good blood on the ground, and it wont take a heavy weight bow to punch one through the animal and into the dirt beyond. The Woodsman broadhead, with it's 3:1 ratio, is a very good penetrating head, and three sharp blades will turn on the blood spigot most times. Not to mention they fly like field points (for me anyhow!). Get your bow/arrow combo tuned PROPERLY and you'll have no worries.

(PS...I'm not saying 2 blade heads are not worthy of putting in your hunting quiver, no sir. There's plenty of good 2 blade broadheads out there and I wouldn't hesitate to use them if that's what I liked. I have in the past. However I do feel that a well made, sharp 3 blade will indeed put better blood on the ground, on average.)

A good Japanese knife have a cutting edge of 14-16 degrees a good German knife 20 degres a 3 blade broadhead 60 degrees?

Newhunter got it right with the belly part.

I like the story's where the hunter says they blew through the deer and the arrow was stuck 1ft in the dirt. Must be some soft ground. Lol When Im in a tree practicing shooting leaves I dont get more than 4".

7+7 to 30+30 if that help?

Yep newhunter 60 degrees and they still pass thru with no problems, and leave a much much larger hole that cannot close. Not sure why I'm arguing this, I use 2 blades on everything but bears n turkeys.

I am not arguing this, I am just pointing on facts after reading about razor sharp 3 blades. https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Detailed-Discussion-on-Knife- Sharpening-Angles-W28.aspx

Sharpness is more important

I've never seen a bad bloodtrail when there are 2 holes through 2 lungs with any quality head thad slice right through a rubberband.

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