Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


How Many Top Level Archers?

Messages posted to thread:
David A. 22-Mar-17
Pappy 22-Mar-17
Missouribreaks 22-Mar-17
Missouribreaks 22-Mar-17
Matt Ewing 22-Mar-17
Matt Ewing 22-Mar-17
K Cummings 22-Mar-17
jk 22-Mar-17
George D. Stout 22-Mar-17
Bowmania 22-Mar-17
Viper 22-Mar-17
N-idaho 22-Mar-17
George D. Stout 22-Mar-17
kstout 22-Mar-17
JusPassin 22-Mar-17
bboaldin 22-Mar-17
JRW 22-Mar-17
stickhunter 22-Mar-17
Kodiak 22-Mar-17
George D. Stout 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
Bowlim 22-Mar-17
Dkincaid 22-Mar-17
JRW 22-Mar-17
Wild Bill 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
JRW 22-Mar-17
bigdog21 22-Mar-17
Danny Pyle 22-Mar-17
K Cummings 22-Mar-17
Scooby-doo 22-Mar-17
arrowchucker 22-Mar-17
K Cummings 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 22-Mar-17
JRW 22-Mar-17
Frisky 22-Mar-17
arrowchucker 22-Mar-17
K Cummings 22-Mar-17
arrowchucker 22-Mar-17
Carolinabob 22-Mar-17
JRW 22-Mar-17
Scooby-doo 22-Mar-17
dean 22-Mar-17
JRW 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
Graysquirrel 22-Mar-17
jk 22-Mar-17
Graysquirrel 22-Mar-17
Graysquirrel 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
jjs 22-Mar-17
oldhunter1942 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
JustSomeDude 22-Mar-17
JustSomeDude 22-Mar-17
JustSomeDude 22-Mar-17
Scooby-doo 22-Mar-17
Sipsey River 22-Mar-17
Babysaph 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
Jeffer 22-Mar-17
limbwalker 22-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
zetabow 22-Mar-17
HillbillyKing 22-Mar-17
limbwalker 22-Mar-17
BSBD 23-Mar-17
zetabow 23-Mar-17
Hiram 23-Mar-17
Jimmy Blackmon 23-Mar-17
Bob Rowlands 23-Mar-17
limbwalker 23-Mar-17
George D. Stout 23-Mar-17
Hiram 23-Mar-17
Bob Rowlands 23-Mar-17
Earl Mason 23-Mar-17
oldhunter1942 23-Mar-17
MississippiBelle 23-Mar-17
Jimmy Blackmon 23-Mar-17
George D. Stout 23-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 23-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 23-Mar-17
David A. 23-Mar-17
dm/wolfskin 23-Mar-17
David A. 23-Mar-17
David A. 23-Mar-17
limbwalker 23-Mar-17
Bowlim 23-Mar-17
zetabow 23-Mar-17
David A. 23-Mar-17
Jimmy Blackmon 23-Mar-17
limbwalker 23-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 23-Mar-17
JRW 23-Mar-17
limbwalker 23-Mar-17
George D. Stout 23-Mar-17
limbwalker 23-Mar-17
George D. Stout 23-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 23-Mar-17
David A. 23-Mar-17
David A. 23-Mar-17
Jeffer 23-Mar-17
BigStriper 23-Mar-17
RymanCat 23-Mar-17
David A. 23-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 23-Mar-17
David A. 23-Mar-17
JRW 23-Mar-17
David A. 23-Mar-17
Bowlim 23-Mar-17
Jeffer 23-Mar-17
bodymanbowyer 23-Mar-17
JustSomeDude 23-Mar-17
limbwalker 23-Mar-17
David A. 23-Mar-17
zetabow 23-Mar-17
JustSomeDude 23-Mar-17
limbwalker 23-Mar-17
hammer08 24-Mar-17
zetabow 24-Mar-17
Jimmy Blackmon 24-Mar-17
BenMaher 24-Mar-17
David A. 24-Mar-17
David A. 24-Mar-17
David A. 24-Mar-17
David A. 24-Mar-17
Longcurve 19-Jan-18
2 bears 19-Jan-18
Zildjian51 19-Jan-18
JRW 19-Jan-18
Tal McNeill 19-Jan-18
Styksnstryngs 19-Jan-18
Demmer 20-Jan-18
zetabow 20-Jan-18
zetabow 20-Jan-18
Longcurve 20-Jan-18
zetabow 20-Jan-18
Demmer 20-Jan-18
reddogge 20-Jan-18
zetabow 20-Jan-18
Beendare 20-Jan-18
Beendare 20-Jan-18
Bowlim 20-Jan-18
Demmer 20-Jan-18
zetabow 20-Jan-18
zetabow 20-Jan-18
Mo0se 20-Jan-18
zetabow 20-Jan-18
reddogge 21-Jan-18
shade mt 21-Jan-18
shade mt 21-Jan-18
Rick Barbee 21-Jan-18
dm/wolfskin 21-Jan-18
timex 21-Jan-18
Longcurve 21-Jan-18
Demmer 22-Jan-18
Terry Lightle 22-Jan-18
zetabow 22-Jan-18
Longcurve 22-Jan-18
Babysaph 22-Jan-18
Babysaph 22-Jan-18
zetabow 22-Jan-18
Rick Barbee 22-Jan-18
Medicare Bhtr 22-Jan-18
Trillium 22-Jan-18
Demmer 22-Jan-18
Demmer 22-Jan-18
Jim Keller 22-Jan-18
Demmer 22-Jan-18
Demmer 22-Jan-18
Demmer 22-Jan-18
Longcurve 22-Jan-18
limbwalker 22-Jan-18
LB1975 22-Jan-18
Demmer 22-Jan-18
Demmer 22-Jan-18
Rick Barbee 22-Jan-18
LB1975 22-Jan-18
Rick Barbee 22-Jan-18
Demmer 22-Jan-18
rraming 22-Jan-18
zetabow 22-Jan-18
DanaC 23-Jan-18
Demmer 23-Jan-18
HedgeHunter 23-Jan-18
shade mt 23-Jan-18
shade mt 23-Jan-18
DeerSpotter 25-Jan-18
3D Archery 25-Jan-18
Terry Lightle 25-Jan-18
DanaC 25-Jan-18
Longcurve 29-Jan-18
Jimmy Blackmon 31-Jan-18
Greyfox 31-Jan-18
HedgeHunter 01-Feb-18
Longcurve 01-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 01-Feb-18
JRW 01-Feb-18
JRW 01-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 01-Feb-18
jogilvie69 01-Feb-18
zetabow 01-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 01-Feb-18
Longcurve 01-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 01-Feb-18
hammer08 02-Feb-18
Demmer 02-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 02-Feb-18
Demmer 02-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 02-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 12-Feb-18
Demmer 14-Feb-18
Longcurve 15-Feb-18
limbwalker 15-Feb-18
JRW 15-Feb-18
zetabow 15-Feb-18
Bob Rowlands 15-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 15-Feb-18
limbwalker 15-Feb-18
zetabow 15-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 15-Feb-18
stonepoint 15-Feb-18
limbwalker 15-Feb-18
stonepoint 16-Feb-18
DanaC 16-Feb-18
Longcurve 16-Feb-18
David A. 17-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 19-Feb-18
Demmer 20-Feb-18
Flash 20-Feb-18
Joseph 20-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 20-Feb-18
Demmer 20-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 20-Feb-18
JRW 20-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 20-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 20-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 20-Feb-18
limbwalker 20-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 20-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 20-Feb-18
Joseph 20-Feb-18
Joseph 20-Feb-18
David A. 21-Feb-18
David A. 21-Feb-18
David A. 21-Feb-18
JRW 21-Feb-18
RymanCat 21-Feb-18
zetabow 21-Feb-18
Draven 21-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 21-Feb-18
dean 21-Feb-18
zetabow 21-Feb-18
Draven 21-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 21-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 21-Feb-18
David A. 21-Feb-18
RymanCat 21-Feb-18
dean 21-Feb-18
limbwalker 21-Feb-18
Draven 21-Feb-18
JRW 21-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 21-Feb-18
JRW 21-Feb-18
RymanCat 21-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 21-Feb-18
JRW 21-Feb-18
JRW 21-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 21-Feb-18
JRW 21-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 21-Feb-18
JRW 21-Feb-18
limbwalker 21-Feb-18
JRW 21-Feb-18
dean 21-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 21-Feb-18
limbwalker 21-Feb-18
David A. 21-Feb-18
Demmer 22-Feb-18
David A. 22-Feb-18
David A. 22-Feb-18
Demmer 22-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 22-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 22-Feb-18
Demmer 22-Feb-18
Demmer 22-Feb-18
shade mt 22-Feb-18
shade mt 22-Feb-18
shade mt 22-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 22-Feb-18
limbwalker 22-Feb-18
limbwalker 22-Feb-18
shade mt 22-Feb-18
Zildjian51 22-Feb-18
limbwalker 22-Feb-18
Zildjian51 22-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 22-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 22-Feb-18
Draven 22-Feb-18
shade mt 22-Feb-18
JRW 22-Feb-18
David A. 22-Feb-18
David A. 22-Feb-18
David A. 22-Feb-18
limbwalker 22-Feb-18
David A. 22-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 22-Feb-18
David A. 22-Feb-18
limbwalker 22-Feb-18
David A. 22-Feb-18
David A. 22-Feb-18
David A. 22-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 22-Feb-18
zetabow 23-Feb-18
David A. 23-Feb-18
David A. 23-Feb-18
limbwalker 23-Feb-18
David A. 24-Feb-18
David A. 24-Feb-18
David A. 24-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 24-Feb-18
Draven 24-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 24-Feb-18
Draven 24-Feb-18
Draven 24-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 24-Feb-18
Draven 24-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 24-Feb-18
heydeerman 24-Feb-18
David A. 24-Feb-18
David A. 24-Feb-18
David A. 24-Feb-18
David A. 24-Feb-18
David A. 24-Feb-18
David A. 24-Feb-18
David A. 24-Feb-18
Draven 24-Feb-18
limbwalker 24-Feb-18
JParanee 24-Feb-18
Demmer 24-Feb-18
JParanee 24-Feb-18
zetabow 25-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 25-Feb-18
Draven 25-Feb-18
David A. 25-Feb-18
David A. 25-Feb-18
David A. 25-Feb-18
David A. 25-Feb-18
David A. 25-Feb-18
limbwalker 25-Feb-18
David A. 25-Feb-18
David A. 25-Feb-18
JRW 26-Feb-18
limbwalker 26-Feb-18
David A. 26-Feb-18
David A. 26-Feb-18
limbwalker 26-Feb-18
David A. 26-Feb-18
David A. 26-Feb-18
David A. 26-Feb-18
Rick Barbee 26-Feb-18
David A. 26-Feb-18
Demmer 26-Feb-18
limbwalker 26-Feb-18
David A. 26-Feb-18
Demmer 26-Feb-18
David A. 26-Feb-18
limbwalker 26-Feb-18
David A. 26-Feb-18
limbwalker 26-Feb-18
David A. 27-Feb-18
David A. 27-Feb-18
David A. 27-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 27-Feb-18
limbwalker 27-Feb-18
unhinged 27-Feb-18
David A. 27-Feb-18
David A. 27-Feb-18
unhinged 27-Feb-18
limbwalker 27-Feb-18
SteveBNY 27-Feb-18
David A. 27-Feb-18
David A. 27-Feb-18
The Whittler 27-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 27-Feb-18
David A. 27-Feb-18
David A. 27-Feb-18
David A. 27-Feb-18
4nolz@work 28-Feb-18
limbwalker 28-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 28-Feb-18
JRW 28-Feb-18
David A. 28-Feb-18
David A. 28-Feb-18
David A. 28-Feb-18
HedgeHunter 14-Mar-18
Demmer 14-Mar-18
HedgeHunter 14-Mar-18
Demmer 14-Mar-18
HedgeHunter 14-Mar-18
JRW 14-Mar-18
limbwalker 14-Mar-18
HedgeHunter 14-Mar-18
Demmer 15-Mar-18
Scott Alaniz 15-Mar-18
From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




Now that we have denigrated instinctive shooting, fair is fair so how many top level archers are there in, for example, the USA?

Of course, what do we mean by top level archers? Without defining it, I would say guys like Dwayne Martin, Jimmy Blackmon, etc.

OK, if we are talking scores, let's say on average 275 and up on the 300 round - aside for guys/gals using Olympic bows.

And next level, 285 and up. Let's say that level of accuracy in a friendly round or local tournament.

From: Pappy
Date: 22-Mar-17




More than I could count.I meet a lot of them every year that no one knows their name. Pappy

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 22-Mar-17




I have killed more big game animals than most on here. Have never shot a tournament round but predict I would lose badly on shots beyond 25 yards, don't much practice for those with my selfbow and cedars.

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 22-Mar-17




I would be a low level archer, fairly productive selfbow hunter.

From: Matt Ewing
Date: 22-Mar-17




I am! When I am in the zone I can't be beat! I shoot instinctively. I also finally got a true Hill style longbow. Feels like I was born with it.

From: Matt Ewing
Date: 22-Mar-17




I often wonder these hero paper killers could knock a sparrow of a corn stalk at 30 plus yards? I can and do every chance I get. I noticed Mr Ferguson didnt make your list.

From: K Cummings
Date: 22-Mar-17




"OK, if we are talking scores, let's say on average 275 and up on the 300 round - aside for guys/gals using Olympic bows."

I'm not sure what you mean by "Olympic bows," I'm assuming you mean a full decked out rig with sights, stabilizers, clicker, etc.

If you take those out of the mix and just go with barebow rigs, longbows, selfbows and all other non-sighted hunting rigs, I'm only guessing, but I suspect the list would be relatively short, and it wouldn't include me.

I would say that less than 5% of all single string archers using non-sighted rigs would be in the 275 and up average category, and even that is being very generous.

Using the recent NFAA Indoor Nationals. as an example, out of all the "traditional" classes combined (Adult Male, Adult Female, Senior Male, Senior Female, Silver Senior Male, Silver Senior Female, Master Senior Male, Adult Male Longbow, Senior Male Longbow, Senior Female Longbow, Silver Senior Male Longbow, Silver Senior Female Longbow, Master Senior Male Longbow and Master Senior Female Longbow), less than 10% of all competitors averaged 275 or more.

Folks like Demmer, Martin, Bills, Worthington, Girard, etc., make it look easy but shooting any 275 on a 300 round is extremely difficult. Those who can average 275 or more are rare indeed.

KPC

From: jk
Date: 22-Mar-17




Defining "top level" "without defining it" sounds like the skill Sean Spicer and Bill Clinton perfected.

I doubt that many here care about Dewayne's or Jimmy B's scores (or anybody's) nearly as much as we appreciate their videos and personal messages.

They're "top level" because they have done so much for all of us who have chosen to pay attention.

To my way of thinking, "top level archers" earn buckles at (for example) Texas State Longbow Championship or Spirit Lake Navajo shoots or equivalent in places as obscure as New York or Iowa.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Mar-17




Agree with Kevin pretty much.

I would offer that if you are top level, barebow archer, you would be shooting 480 and up in the field rounds, and mid 700's in the American Round, or mid 800's in the 900 round. When you only shoot 20 or 30 yards, a lot of expertise goes unknown. Yes there are top level 3D archers who also shoot field and target archery barebow too. Those are the ones who need to be on their game since there is more to consider than a 30 yard point on. Incidentally, we have some of them here as well.

I'm certainly not in your suggested class by any stretch, and never have been; but I have stayed in a few Holliday Inn Express.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Mar-17




Average 275??? I'd say that 5% is way too high. I'll give it one or two percent. Average is the eliminating factor.

Bowmania

From: Viper
Date: 22-Mar-17




David -

I would venture to guess that no one here (or anywhere) is AVERAGING a 275/285 on an NFAA (much less a FITA) target at 20 yards/18M without an "Olympic" rig.

Don't kid yourself, the bare bow guys in that score range are using pretty specialized/dedicated rigs with "sights" every bit as real as my Sure-loc.

Look, when I was a "kid" in my 20's, I shot a 280 and a 282 on the same night with a 60# hunting bow, but I'd be lying if I tried to claim that as an average, more of an exception with all the planets in line.

Viper out.

From: N-idaho
Date: 22-Mar-17




most compounds shooters at local indoor ranges averaged around the 285 mark. haven't seen any trad shooters get much better than the 260 on occasion and average about 240 and I thought that was pretty good shooting

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Mar-17




And by the way, what people refer to as "Olympic Rig" is the same rigs that used to be at every field and target shoot on Sundays in the 60's and 70's B.C. (before compounds). They were simply called freestyle setups and have been around for over sixty years.

The Olympics didn't open back up to archery until 1972, and by then all of those bows were in use for quite awhile. Just about everyone in our club had a setup up as such, and even barebow shooters like me had a target setup with stabilizer, minus a bow sight. Don't recall any reference to "Olympic Rig" back then. There's nothing new here save for more models to choose from and $300.00 sights. ))

From: kstout
Date: 22-Mar-17




I would agree 5% is much too high. I've shot on an NFAA league every winter for 40 years, and have never shot with someone with a 285 average shooting a recurve or longbow without sights. I've seen several shoot in the 280's, but not an average that high. Several times I've had a 270 average for the league, and have occasionally shot in the 280's. I'm currently shooting a BW longbow 47# @ 28" with carbon arrows, and my average is 258. My high score for this winters league so far is 269. I went through chemo therapy in 2015, and since then have had to drop my bow weight down, just haven't regained my strength yet. I would add shooting on a league, in a relaxed environment, where your used to shooting, and shooting in a major tournament, is an entirely different game. I have nothing but respect for the guys shooting these big tournaments, and holding it all together to consistently shoot high scores!

From: JusPassin Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Mar-17




LOL, maybe it depends on who you hang with. When I lived in MN I was blessed to hunt and shoot with 5 guys, all of whom held the top MSAA(Minnesota State Archery Association) scores at one time or another.

Way too many guys think that because they haven't heard of someone they can't be that good. Nothing could be further from the truth.

From: bboaldin
Date: 22-Mar-17




All of you guys have got this ALL WRONG...

If you are talking about top level archers, well, there is FRISKY and then there is...........Frisky....enough said!

From: JRW
Date: 22-Mar-17




"I would venture to guess that no one here (or anywhere) is AVERAGING a 275/285 on an NFAA (much less a FITA) target at 20 yards/18M without an "Olympic" rig."

Well, you'd be wrong. Very wrong. :)

From: stickhunter
Date: 22-Mar-17




Well you kinda left parameters pretty narrow for determining top level archers. But if we must stick to those parameters the answere at the time being is 1. Well that is in top level nfaa comp. only one man averaged above 275, at least at 2017 Vegas bare bow class with a non cam bow. The winner, John D had a 3 day average of 279.

Now with that being said, including all different types of archery I've shot with quit a few guys that don't even know what IBO or NFAA is but if they would attend a national 3D shoot and didn't development some form of tournament anxiety, they would be in the running every tournament. I personally know others that consistently kill deer, elk, turkey etc. every season but couldn't care less about competition. So are these guys high level archers? I'd say yes.

Ok, what's next?

From: Kodiak
Date: 22-Mar-17




I have no idea.

My best on the 300 round is 262...but that was with my 55# hunting rig shooting instinktive.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Mar-17




One of our own members here who goes by 6 Gold would likely qualify as top level. Jay won the 1957 Nationals shooting barebow. You never know who is among us, whether they are current or former "top level" archers. You just don't hear them on here bragging about it.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




JRW, are you referring to yourself on someone else?

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




I'm going to guess 30 individuals in the USA.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




Pappy and others, what is your guess how many?

From: Bowlim
Date: 22-Mar-17




You are not a top level archer if you are the best at a sport that nobody gives a toss about. Consider the rules for inclusion in the Olympics. How many shooters actually shoot some of these disciplines, and how many nations compete in them. Even the Olympics look a little dodgy: At one point pretty much the US dominated, then one nations says "let's put on a show" and they dominate. And we have amateurs with a few years experience making the team. It is hard to know. Even golf, that has pretty much the deepest bench of any sport in the world, occasionally gets a guy on the tour who practiced in a cow pasture or took up golf in adulthood. But archery is pretty thin in some of the classes.

If some of the guys mentioned go out and win the triple crown against the compound guys, then we will be onto something. In reverse, when Bates moved to sticks she was tops in the field.

From: Dkincaid
Date: 22-Mar-17




I'd say thousands

From: JRW
Date: 22-Mar-17




"JRW, are you referring to yourself on someone else?"

I know of several whose averages on NFAA 300 rounds are at or above 275. It's a little odd to hear someone say those people don't exist when a simple search of tournament results online proves they do. Unless, of course, someone want to make an absurd claim that these folks just always happen to shoot way above average at state, sectional, and national events.

As far as my averages, if someone wants to poke around and figure it out, so be it. but I don't come here to post those things, and if I ever started referring to myself as "top level" I'd hope someone I know, love and respect would slap me upside the head.

From: Wild Bill
Date: 22-Mar-17




My, my, my, where is this going?

David,

Lets say, why don't you just straight out say what it is you want to say and skip baiting the crowd.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




JRW, what is your guess for how many in the USA? Maybe we have a handful in the IBO World Trad, but then I'm sure a lot of top shots never make that tournament or perhaps even any tournament.

From: JRW
Date: 22-Mar-17




David,

I have no idea how many, nor would I venture to guess. To be honest, I don't waste time contemplating such things.

From: bigdog21
Date: 22-Mar-17




TOP archers there are many but only in there game. what does this mean? I took my son to a field shoot for youths. I never field shoot. the club set up a 20 round 3-d course for the adults to go have fun while the kids competed. most of the fathers that went with use were field shooters some had sites. let me tell you these guys where the best at field shooting but on the 3-d they where crying about losing all there arrows. and yes x10s and other expensive arrows it wasn't there game really kind of shock me how bad they where. some shoots close to trees they wouldn't even try. top archers only in there game. know in the 90s a Olympic archer that won gold he got invited to a deer hunt his first time EVER hunting 25yard shot over the back by 2 feet. top archer only in his game. now there are many bow hunters on here that very seldom miss on live game. squirrels ,Rabbits pheasant but would probably do terrible at paper. top archers in there game. take your top archers and go rabbit hunting are pheasant hunting then see who is top archer there are none! and Meany in there Owen game. a good 300 round shooter may do terrible at 3-d and vise versa. I don't think you will find the same people top archers in all the different competition's and hunting.

From: Danny Pyle
Date: 22-Mar-17




A lot of the best shooters you will never hear about on these sites.

From: K Cummings
Date: 22-Mar-17




"I would say that less than 5% of all single string archers using non-sighted rigs would be in the 275 and up average category, and even that is being very generous.

I'm sure I'll take some serious heat for saying this, but not only would it be less than 5% (very generously speaking) of all single string archers, I would also say that less than 1/100 of 1% could average 275 on the 300 round shooting "instinctively" (absent any hard aiming system), if any at all.

KPC

From: Scooby-doo
Date: 22-Mar-17




Barebow or hunting rig average 275, sorry but very,very few. I know some truly great shots and a few who shoot in 300 round leagues and the best any of them average is mid 240's. Viper is 100% correct. I would think even guys like Byron would have a tough time averaging 275. Hell I go watch some guys shoot compound rigs on Friday nights, there are several 300 guys. One that won Vegas a couple times, but the average everyday bow hunter averages around 260-270 and that is with a compound set up for hunting. Shawn

From: arrowchucker
Date: 22-Mar-17




I don't know about everybody else but I have averaged over 275 for a couple years now My personal best is 286 did it 3 times. shooting A CD WF25 riser/36# Win and Win Rapido limbs and 2312's X7. I went to the LasVegas shoot 2 year's in a row. You will see the best in the world there. last year 18th place, This year I shot 23points better and only climbed to 17th. There is some damn good shooters out there.

From: K Cummings
Date: 22-Mar-17




"I don't know about everybody else but I have averaged over 275 for a couple years now My personal best is 286 did it 3 times. shooting A CD WF25 riser/36# Win and Win Rapido limbs and 2312's X7. I went to the LasVegas shoot 2 year's in a row. You will see the best in the world there. last year 18th place, This year I shot 23points better and only climbed to 17th. There is some damn good shooters out there."

286 is some SERIOUSLY good shooting Kyle, congrats.

At the Vegas shoot this year, from what I can see, only 2 archers (John Demmer and David Machart) averaged 275 over three rounds. That's 2 out of 78 archers, or roughly 2.5%. And you guys are the best of the best.

The only place you see better shooting than that is on the internet, and it's always by the same person.

A. Guy

Sure would like to meet him.

:)

KPC

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




arrowchucker, is that stabilizer and what was your aiming method?

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 22-Mar-17




Amen Arrowchucker ,and your one of them !! and a dang good guy too !!

From: JRW
Date: 22-Mar-17




Um, folks, there is a HUGE difference between an NFAA 300 round and a Vegas round -- different targets, different scoring. You can't really compare the two.

From: Frisky
Date: 22-Mar-17




Steve Gorr is tops. Also, based on the 1st shot threads here, there are at least 100,000 top level archers in this forum alone.

Joe

From: arrowchucker
Date: 22-Mar-17




Yes I had a stabilizer and I shoot 3 under and hold the point at 6 o'clock and focus on the X. I want to put a shout out to Arne Moe too. He was my virtual coach. I've watched all his videos 100 times and drove over and had him one on one a couple times. I would video myself, then post on my Youtube channel , He would critique my shot , and we would do it again. Arne took me from good to Really good. He is my only subscriber on my you tube channel LOL

From: K Cummings
Date: 22-Mar-17




Good point Jason.

Which one do you find more difficult? The smaller diameter rings or the fatigue factor of shooting twice the number of arrows?

KPC

From: arrowchucker
Date: 22-Mar-17




mental fatigue. That's the hardest to overcome. Always said shooting a X is easy doing it 60 times in a row ......

From: Carolinabob
Date: 22-Mar-17




Names you left off Ty Pelfry and how many times world champ with long bow Larry Yien

From: JRW
Date: 22-Mar-17




KFC,

I don't find the NFAA 300 round fatiguing. It's only 60 arrows (plus two warm up ends).

From: Scooby-doo
Date: 22-Mar-17




JRW, if you were referring to my post. I only said the guy won vegas. He shoots 300 rounds with the group on friday nights and they shoot compounds and shoot 300 rounds of course with a 5 spot, otherwise they would bust arrows but a barebow shooter or someone shooting their hunting set up would be world class to average 275. Shawn

From: dean
Date: 22-Mar-17




There are different and distinct games with bows and arrows. A person that can dump six arrows into a six inch group at 25 yards in 30 seconds can be a great hunting shot and still never win a 3d tournament. Indeed, that same person could probably care less about showing off trophies and receiving acclimation from others.

From: JRW
Date: 22-Mar-17




Shawn,

I was referring to folks comparing what people shoot on NFAA rounds with what folks shoot at Vegas.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




According to Archery Trade Association figures there are just under 500,000 recurve shooters who compete in tournaments. My guess only 1 out of 10 are really serious, or 50,000. I'd guess only 1 out of 10 are shooting trad bow at this level, or 5000. Perhaps one out of 100 (a bit generous)of these are really top level shots or 50 in the USA???

This leaves out longbow shooters and other top level archers who don't compete, but those numbers probably wouldn't change the overall tally much. If you don't like my numbers, plug in your own. I admit it's just a guess.

From: Graysquirrel
Date: 22-Mar-17




Koc, vegas shot the vegas face. Scoreing a bit different than nfaa whiteface

From: jk
Date: 22-Mar-17




Was this thread started by tweet?

From: Graysquirrel
Date: 22-Mar-17




Should have been kpc,

The nfaa white face the white area is five points, you shoot 60 arrows.

The same size vegas face is the 10 (x ring on the white face) then 9, 8, etc. 30 arrows for 300 points. A darn bit harder to post up high scores compared to the nfaa whiteface. You could shoot 60 arrows at the nfaa whiteface and never touch the x ring and get a 300. Shoot 30 arrows at the vegas face and hit inside that same area and never hit the x ring ( the 10) and you just shot a 270.

Not the same by a large margin, yet all the arrows scored inside that white, or gold circle which is the same size

From: Graysquirrel
Date: 22-Mar-17




Should have been kpc,

The nfaa white face the white area is five points, you shoot 60 arrows.

The same size vegas face is the 10 (x ring on the white face) then 9, 8, etc. 30 arrows for 300 points. A darn bit harder to post up high scores compared to the nfaa whiteface. You could shoot 60 arrows at the nfaa whiteface and never touch the x ring and get a 300. Shoot 30 arrows at the vegas face and hit inside that same area and never hit the x ring ( the 10) and you just shot a 270.

Not the same by a large margin, yet all the arrows scored inside that white, or gold circle which is the same size

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




Here's my bowhunters round, you shoot just 20 arrows with your actual bowhunting bow on the NFAA blue and white 300 target.

90 and above excellent 80 and above good 70 and above not so good

As a round to test bowhunting accuracy expertise, it won't satisfy everyone. Not enough arrows, too many arrows, etc. I personally think 20 arrows is more than enough to give you an idea how accurate you are. Does it test stamina and mental fatigue? Not at the level of 60 arrows.

But in real world bowhunting accuracy really only the first shot counts. So arguably one could make one shot a day for 20 days, or whatever you feel is realistic, but to get a quick appraisal, I'd say 20 arrows is a suitable accuracy test.

From: jjs
Date: 22-Mar-17




Average, but on skeet use to be 23 bird average, got to figure out shooting shotgun shells out of my bow.

From: oldhunter1942
Date: 22-Mar-17




Who cares

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




"70 and above not so good" maybe "passing" is better. But hey, I'm not the judge, you are.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




oldhunter, who cares about anything? Sadly, many people, while highly intelligent, just are not interested in much.

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 22-Mar-17

JustSomeDude's embedded Photo



You inspired me to go out and shoot a round.THIS is my problem...I'm on the 5th end now

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 22-Mar-17




I CRUMBLED!

I started and ended OK but my 6th end was an 11! Last end was a 23....

OK, so no warmup. Tradtech Galaxy with 47# Carbon foam limbs. Shot 3 under off the shelf with velcro rest. 8.74 gpp arrows. I was gapping. The bottom "1" in the photo above is an example of losing my focus on the X.

My grand total was a 209 with 6 x's

And for the record, my first end was 5x 4 3 3 3 (in that order). I was happy about my X and slacked on the rest.

I might actually practice this now

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 22-Mar-17




Oh...my 20 arrows would have been 78 :)

From: Scooby-doo
Date: 22-Mar-17




I hate to say this but most big shoots I have been too and I mean 3D and the Muzzy shoot. I would say that more then 70% of those folks should not be shooting at live game no matter the distance. It is amazing how bad a lot of folks are even at 10 yards. I have not been shooting much as of late due to needing a shoulder replaced and I am someone who can shoot very well up to 15 yards even if I have not shot for months, but get beyond that and I have to shoot a lot to actually be any good. I believe anything over 240 is excellent on a 300 round. Shawn

From: Sipsey River
Date: 22-Mar-17




I go to a lot of shoots, it takes a 90% to win most.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 22-Mar-17




What is the Star method?

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




"I hate to say this but most big shoots I have been too and I mean 3D and the Muzzy shoot. I would say that more then 70% of those folks should not be shooting at live game no matter the distance. It is amazing how bad a lot of folks are even at 10 yards."

Been that way for a long time, too.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




That which completes Trad. Archery, Babysaph.

From: Jeffer
Date: 22-Mar-17




Okay so I will chime in here. I have no clue how many people are at the top level. I know I'm not one of them though. People have been asking me for a long time, "How would you do on a 300 round?", and yesterday I finally gave it a go because it finally seemed warm enough weather wise to do some shooting. I'm hating cold fingers as I get older. lol Watching that Lancaster shoot on YouTube was inspiring. So I just drew a target with a compass to proper size and coloured it in. I used my 35#, 66" Bear Minuteman takedown because I have been doing some form reconstruction with that bow in my shot sequence working at getting rid of that stupid tiny "sky draw" problem (close up in the house), I've had since I was a kid. (That's what happens when you start out learning over bowed) lol So I am trying to shoot more like Lucy does with her form. Anyway, not horrible but nothing to brag on either at 257.I started off slowly but as I shot I guess I warmed up because it went better as I shot. I only have three good arrows for that bow right now so I ended up doing 20 rounds of 3. I don't know if that matters at all or not? So that is it. My first ever 300 round. Now pigs can fly! lol

Jeff (Gonna keep working at it now)

From: limbwalker
Date: 22-Mar-17




Back yard, or tournaments? LOL

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




Jeff, as I said in our PM, that is really excellent. I don't think many instinctive shooters could do that, although I could be wrong.

From: zetabow
Date: 22-Mar-17




Well for Barebow Stringwalking I was 280's in practice last season and mid 270's in competition (which is considered only half decent for SW) but when I shot IFAA Longbow with woodies and split finger I shot mid 240's in competition and mid 250's in practice. I think anything that's not BB or Trad using long/heavy arrows to give 20y point on, then anything around 230 to 260 is a pretty decent score.

It would be quite elitist to look down on a Longbow for not averaging 275, in 30 years I've only every seen one 265 in competition from a Longbow.

From: HillbillyKing Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Mar-17

HillbillyKing's embedded Photo



I have No Idea But I really hope there is a large percent that love it as much as i do and dont pay any attention too braggers and feel they are infearior too anyone walk youre walk enjoy youre life ! My Friends are the best part of it and ive never seen some of them i respect them and receive the same back so it has been a wonderfull experaince for me and Iam a Winner every Day of my life !!!

From: limbwalker
Date: 22-Mar-17




So if we're talking friendly round or local competition...

I'd say there are probably 20 who can best 285 and maybe 50 who can best 275. But that's just a pure guess.

From: BSBD
Date: 23-Mar-17




But can you shoot a sparrow out of a cornstalk at 30 yards? Only on the LW, lol.

From: zetabow
Date: 23-Mar-17




For BB Stringwalking my scores are just about okay for that shooting div but Archers like Timo Leskinen in Finland just shot a 297 average at his Nationals and I know 10 other Barebows in Europe that can shoot in the 290's.

292 is the best I every shot in practice last season and that took a LOT of work, Been working away from home last 3 months so I've only shot 3 times this Indoor season not quite reached 270 in competition and doubt I will without some more serious time/effort.

From: Hiram
Date: 23-Mar-17




There is no test in Arkansas to hunt with a Bow and arrow except hunters education course.

I doubt there are many on average even with compounds that can shoot an average of 235-250 especially with broadheads.

I never shoot past 30 maybe 35 on Elk hunting. I have killed one Elk downhill at 35 yards but most deer have been under 15 yards and less than 20. I did kill one deer at 45 yards with a compound but that was easy with a High Country Hatchet and 2213's years ago.

Maybe we should lay out a course and have a 20-second rule on the shots or less and see what we do overall on an average.

From: Jimmy Blackmon
Date: 23-Mar-17




A few thoughts on this. You can't compare an NFAA round and a FITA round. It's a totally different target and scoring system. If we say the NFAA round there are a handful of guys who would bet you a $100 bill that they could walk out and shoot 275 or better right now. I will list them below.

Everyone shoots lower at NFAA Indoor Nationals. On average, guys will shoot 10 points lower than their league average. For me the entire facility has a different feel than any range I've shot on. Not an excuse, just reality. I won Mid-Atlantics one year with either a 281 or 283, but shot like 263 at NFAA Nationals. It just has a different feel.

So these guys can consistently shoot over 275. John Demmer - the most consistent champion shooting right now. John shoot's 290s in tournament frequently. He shot a 298 or 299 one year. Dewayne Martin - He's shot 290s a lot as well Ben Rogers - The elder statesman of tournament shooting. Mark Applegate Alan Eagleton Me - I haven't shot indoors in a couple of years, but I'm confident over 275. My best is 294. Scott Bills Jim Powell Mike Frizzell Paul Vogel Nicholas Wright Fawn Girrard Jennifer Stoner Neil Hurd Ken Eckerd Bobby Worthington - but there has been a lot of controversy surrounding Bobby and indoor shooting.

There are others that I have left out. For that, I apologize, but this was a list off the top of my head.

I often hear guys talk about all the fellows that are out there that we never hear about but who could outshoot everyone. Most of the guys on the list have been shooting for many years and all over the country. I do not believe that there are very many folks that could show up and outshoot this list consistently. You may disagree, but I have yet to encounter them. Certainly, there is a handful but it's a small minority.

I am not considering hunting here. Our point of reference was NFAA indoors. If we went to 3D the list would change.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 23-Mar-17




Bottom dweller instincter here. I hit good to ten, fair to fifteen, and suck at twenty and out. Oh well.

From: limbwalker
Date: 23-Mar-17




Actually Jimmy, the conversion from one to the other is not that difficult, esp. if the archer doesn't shoot many 3's.

Converting FITA to NFAA is quite simple and straightforward.

And you're absolutely right about the 10 pts. lower at nationals. I see it myself and in others all the time. But all the keyboard warriors see is the score at nationals, and then of course they compare that to their best day in their back yard. LOL

Not that it hurt my feelings, but my TFAA indoor state record is a 281/279 and I'm pretty proud of that. In a local event earlier that year I shot a 286.

My practice scores when I was practicing and shooting NFAA trad setups were usually around 280-285.

The last year I shot NFAA indoor nat's (2013) I had been shooting recurve all year and as a favor to a friend, attended Louisville to shoot trad (where I had the pleasure of shooting with Demmer for the first time, on day one). I shot that event purely instinctive - no conscious aiming - and stumbled through a 250-260 ish weekend IIRC. Not my best but then it was a last minute decision with nearly zero practice.

I think there are a lot more folks out there who can and would shoot those scores in major events, but they just don't compete for one reason or another. Usually it's time and money. Usually money. That's what it is for me.

The guys on that list spend literally thousands of dollars every year traveling to shoot paper and foam. Good for them, but personally if I'm going to spend that kind of money, my target had better have hair and a heartbeat, and live in a place I want to spend some time.

Otherwise, I'll just shoot local events and have fun switching back and forth between recurve, barebow and trad - just because I can and I enjoy them all.

Anyway, long winded but I know there are folks out there to whom 270 is just an average day, but we will never hear of them. A whole lot more who if they made up their mind to, 280 would be about 6 months out, but they are satisfied with what they are doing and have other things to do besides shoot all day.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 23-Mar-17




And the aura of shooting for something, medals, trophies or the right to hunt can foul up a lot of psyches big time. Thank Heaven some of these big shots, criticizing the average shooters who hunt, don't make the rules for who can hunt. Hunting is a mental game as well, but no one looks over your shoulder and counts your hits. And, they don't make up the rules that you have to attain to get to the woods. Thank you God for that.

This from David A, sounds like a treatise on proficiency tests that would likely bar a lot of folks from the woods. The problem with any proficiency test is the people deciding what they should be. A lose, lose situation for a lot of capable folks.

From: Hiram
Date: 23-Mar-17




Jimmy, what is the controversy on Worthington, is it the Senior division?

Good to see you post and best wishes to you and the family and to Rod whom I hope is healthy and having fun.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 23-Mar-17




"The guys on that list spend literally thousands of dollars every year traveling to shoot paper and foam. Good for them, but personally if I'm going to spend that kind of money, my target had better have hair and a heartbeat, and live in a place I want to spend some time."

Damn straight.

From: Earl Mason
Date: 23-Mar-17




Honestly,,,,,,,,,, who cares. Jesus Christ is my hero.

From: oldhunter1942
Date: 23-Mar-17




Who cares

From: MississippiBelle
Date: 23-Mar-17




Well.....I'm definitely on the lower end. This is start of my 3rd year shooting traditional. Last summer at the IBO at Twin Oaks I shot in a little "game" where they take the first 20-25 women that sign up to shoot this and the men that sign up their names are placed in a box. Each woman is assigned 2 men to her team that are drawn out of the box. Well, I almost had a heart attack when the names for my group were called out...... Phil Johnston and Dewayne Martin. OMG... Phil is one of the best selfbow and wood arrow shooters I have ever seen and Dewayne, well, I don't have to say how good he is. I was a nervous wreck. I just continued to pray "Lord, please let me just hit the target". 3D targets are placed in an open field at various unknown distances....I have trouble still with judging distances....Dewayne and Phil shot mostly 12s and a few 10s. I did manage some 10s mostly 8s......I felt so bad though because I shot a 5 and dropped one target and got a fat 0. We got beat out toward the next to the last round by one point. It was an eye opener. 1) I definitely needed to practice more 2) I'm not ready for that pressure yet......and that was a HECK of a lot of pressure. I'm not in this to score big numbers in a tournament ....I want to shoot the best I can and beat the score I just had. So yes, I'm in the bottom, but I know I won't be in the top because that's not where I want to be. But, even though I did shoot good, having them on my team did push me to do better....I just hate I missed my yardage on the two bad shots. Now, that being said....when hunting, if that animal is 15 yds or less it's in the freezer. Marsha

From: Jimmy Blackmon
Date: 23-Mar-17




John - I did not include you because I wasn't sure if your scores were barebow or Freestyle limited. I thought you shot NFAA a couple of years back in TRAD class but wasn't sure about your scores, so I omitted you. You are certainly in that group.

You are right you can convert the score, but most guys shoot lower scores on the Fita face. If you shoot all 5s you are okay because you'll shoot 27 each end, but outside that and the score drops fast. I've shot plenty of Fita and Vegas as well.

Some of you guys are a hoot. Step back with no emotion and look at the threads objectively. A large portion of people on LW only want to hunt. They frequently become negative when you talk "punching paper," yet I post 13 deer killed this year and by the fifth I'm called a game hog and feel the hate from those exact people.

Many of the Leatherwallers desire to improve their accuracy, shoot to the best of their ability, so we discuss those who are very accurate and how they shoot, but you get upset about that as well.

To stay safe on this site you would think you can only post 2 deer kills per season, and make darn sure you don't shoot better than an average of 8 per target on 3D.

Also, some of you make assumptions about the accuracy of several "icons" of traditional archery. Just because a guy writes a lot of articles, shoots trick archery, and has killed a lot of animals doesn't mean they can go to the local 3D course and outshoot everyone. That is a false assumption.

This sport has room for everyone - recreational 3D shooter, hunter, target archer, etc. At the end of the day, most of us simply want to hit what we are aiming at with greater consistency. If you are happy with your accuracy then good for you. Keep it up and enjoy the sport, but don't hate on others just because they would like to discuss some folks that have achieved tremendous accuracy due to a lot of hard work on the range. Just move on to the next thread.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 23-Mar-17




My time in competitive archery was a fantastic binge in camaraderie; hanging with people who liked what I liked (archery) and good times just shooting the bow and arrow. I still enjoy that and would prefer it over hunting, as a matter of fact. Hunting season is six weeks here out of fifty-two total, and that lets a lot of time to enjoy what else it is you like.

To me, the best part of the sport of archery, is sharing time with my friends and acquaintances. Just like going to Denton Hill each year...it sure isn't for the foam targets since we rarely shoot but one round the whole time. It's for good companionship, re-upping with some folks we haven't seen in awhile, and shooting and talking archery.

If I'm spending lots of money, it's on family vacations or upkeep on our home.

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 23-Mar-17




Thank god i'm not on that list !We all work hard for our money and spend it as we see fit, no one on that list asked anyone on here to come or go to a dot shoot or any other shoot for that matter. we do what we do cause we like to. If we can help someone if they ask on this site, anyone of them will. Please don't make any of us bad guys because we are lucky enough to be able to do these things. Thank You Cal PS we are all avid hunters and pretty dang good ones at that . Just Sayin

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 23-Mar-17




Thank god i'm not on that list !We all work hard for our money and spend it as we see fit, no one on that list asked anyone on here to come or go to a dot shoot or any other shoot for that matter. we do what we do cause we like to. If we can help someone if they ask on this site, anyone of them will. Please don't make any of us bad guys because we are lucky enough to be able to do these things. Thank You Cal PS we are all avid hunters and pretty dang good ones at that . Just Sayin

From: David A.
Date: 23-Mar-17




George, no I'm not in favor of proficiency tests for bowhunters even though I do believe inaccuracy is the biggest single problem in trad. archery today. As we see above, a certain percentage of people seemingly don't give a hoot and even resent discussions on this problem. But deep down, I believe every single trad. archer and bowhunter wants to shoot more accurately.

From: dm/wolfskin
Date: 23-Mar-17




Archery is like any other sport. As you move up the ladder only a few will be at the top overall. Pee-wee league, little league, middle school, high school, college, and pro, the number of people to achieve pro is very low compared to the number that started at a young age or older age. A lot of us might think we're good but not really.

From: David A.
Date: 23-Mar-17




Well, most compound guys are pretty accurate at 20 yds. And most rifle guys are, too...

From: David A.
Date: 23-Mar-17




My point being, maybe more people should consider aiming; that's what Fred Bear said, too.

Anyway, I'm getting the impression from the various threads here on the LW and other sites, that we have a couple dozen really top shots in the USA that go to the various tournaments and maybe an equal number of unknowns who can shoot at that level. All aimers. So maybe 50 in the USA at this level?

And then we have a handful of instinctive archers who also are phenomenal shots, but below the aimers level of accuracy. Maybe one or two who can make it to the upper levels on paper now and then. Perhaps now and then a real talent who can win against the better aimers.

Then the vast majority of a hundred thousand or more trad. archers who (I'm generalizing) fall one of three groups 1) pathetic in accuracy or 2) so-so in accuracy or 3) fairly good in accuracy (but not by tournament top level standards).

I would say this is the underbelly of trad. archery that isn't too attractive. Yet, many will say "who cares?", "so what?", etc. pen. Perhaps the majority of guys/gals go to a tournament, don't shoot that well by hard standards, yet still have fun. Go home, and don't change anything, don't think to change anything, and don't care to change anything.

Fine, but I think the number 1 issue deserves discussion out in the open.

From: limbwalker
Date: 23-Mar-17




I don't know why people take the time to type "who cares" on a topic they care nothing about. LOL

And Jimmy - no worries. I bounce around from bow to bow and format to format as the mood strikes me. Olympic Recurve is certainly the easiest for me, because the clicker eliminates my TP, but I did enjoy training toward my goal of setting the new TFAA indoor trad record and am quite proud of that season's work.

I'd love nothing more than to travel around with John and Dewayne and the guys to shoot, but at the same time I miss shooting with the OR guys quite a bit, esp. when an "old man" like me can still (some days) compete with the top young guns.

The toughest decision for me is whether I'm going to coach, shoot recurve, shoot barebow, shoot trad, or a combination of those, or just say screw it and go hunting. LOL

As for George's comment - I'm a bit taken back since he is usually so positive. I don't see any of the guys on Jimmy's list criticizing anyone. I think they (and I too) remember very well where we came from, and I spent a lot more years shooting average or below average with a stickbow than I have shooting well. I remember those days so I don't criticize those who are still on that journey. I just try to help them with what I've learned, if they want help.

The same is true for guys like Jimmy, Dewayne, John, Ben, Alan and others. You won't get better help, quicker, than you will from those guys. Just look at all the instructional FREE video folks like Jimmy and Dewayne have posted. Nobody made them do that or paid them to do that. That my friends, is VERY generous of them. I've thought a few times of doing the same but frankly it's a lot of work to be criticized that much! LOL

From: Bowlim
Date: 23-Mar-17




10 million Canadians golf, which is odd considering the weather. So probably south of 100 million in the US.

Over 2 million US golfers have an official handicap, which means they compete in sanctioned events to get there. The top amateur golfer who wins the US amateur, normally can't hang with the pros. When that was Tiger Woods, he played himself out of the US Open.

The reasons I bring this up is because I came across this thread from a few years ago about how there were multiple championships in the US barebow recurve world, and that you didn't always get even 3 people show up for the nationals. In one case the guy won by showing up.

From: zetabow
Date: 23-Mar-17




"The reasons I bring this up is because I came across this thread from a few years ago about how there were multiple championships in the US barebow recurve world, and that you didn't always get even 3 people show up for the nationals. In one case the guy won by showing up."

I think in the past rule restrictions pretty much killed off BB in the USA, specially NFAA. It's certainly not the case now, top US Barebows have gone toe to toe with top European Barebows (BB is still more popular here) at the last 3 WA World Field champs, those American Archers are well respected for their shooting skill.

From: David A.
Date: 23-Mar-17




Jimmy, you know the tournament scene better than me, is this overly optimistic?

"Anyway, I'm getting the impression from the various threads here on the LW and other sites, that we have a couple dozen really top shots in the USA that go to the various tournaments and maybe an equal number of unknowns who can shoot at that level. All aimers. So maybe 50 in the USA at this level? "

From: Jimmy Blackmon
Date: 23-Mar-17




I'm sure there are around 50 guys that CAN shoot 275, but not much more than that.

Some of the guys that could choose not to shoot indoors. Calvin for example. I'm a bit confused by his comment above, "Thank God I'm not on that list," because he is certainly a tournament shooter, but he chooses to shoot longbow vs. Trad class so his scores are lower. Still he shoots 250-260s with longbow and woodies. If he shot TRAD he's be a 275+ guy. Calvin?

There are others like Mark Lynde who could as well but choose not to shoot indoors very often. Scott Antczak shot that high but hasn't shot indoors in a while either. Same is true for Ty Pelfrey and Jared Neal.

Archery is no different than Golf. There are a lot of guys on the tour who are great shots, but there are 5-10 that will always be on or near the podium when everyone is there.

From: limbwalker
Date: 23-Mar-17




Bowlim, those are fair comparisons.

However, as a coach of quite a few Olympic Recurve archers with high aspirations over the past 13 years, I've also come across my share of very good athletes from others sports who have decided to take up archery.

To my surprise, because I was an athlete the whole time growing up like many of you, I have seen uncordinated non- athletic people who never would have earned a varsity letter in HS, pick up a bow and outshoot folks who were College All- Americans.

Archery is a bit different. The mental game is so important in this sport. The ability to focus and concentrate and repeat identical movements often trumps pure athleticism. It is in golf too, but golf requires quite a bit more coordination than archery does.

Oh, and I had a USGA Handicap index of 4.5 for years and never played a competitive round outside of the club championship once a year, for a couple years.

It would be nice to see thousands of archers competing for every national title. We do see that in compound and in some divisions of Olympic Recurve. But I'm not sure the scores would be much better if we did have that in barebow. There's only so much a person can do with a simple bow and no sights.

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 23-Mar-17




Just a funny, you know me. There are a lot of very, very good shooters out there that just don't hit all the big shoots. When I see a stranger I always wonder is this guy going to hand me my butt today !! LOL Sometimes they do and I will be the first to shake their hand !! After all it's still just a game we play ! Cal

Yes I spend a lot of money but I wouldn't trade the friends I've made for all the Deer horns in the world.

From: JRW
Date: 23-Mar-17




When I see folks downplay others who don't hit the big shoots I think of Matt Potter. Here was a guy from MT that could shoot very well, but a few folks called him a "backyard shooter" or some such nonsense, said he really wasn't that good because he didn't come to the big shoots. So he came to the IBO Traditional World Championship, kick a LOT of people's butts, and went back home where he has more fun fly fishing and running lion hounds.

In short: don't ever dismiss someone just because they don't go to big shoots. They may shoot a LOT better than you.

From: limbwalker
Date: 23-Mar-17




Jason, I've seen (and been the subject) of the same thing - as you know. It's a poor person who looks down on an archer just because they don't spend their money traveling and competing. Like DWS says, you never know when someone is going to decide today's the day, and hand you your butt. LOL That is one of the great things about this sport - that a person can train in their back yard or garage and one day if they have the mental game to do it, step onto a big stage and compete with anyone.

It's been a while since I hit the "big shoots" with my Olympic bow and even then I didn't go to too many. Funny thing is that these days I meet a lot of archers who have no idea that I ever even knew how to hold a bow. LOL Oh well.

It's hard to say how many great shooters we have in the U.S. Really hard to say. Who knows how many guys are out there shooting 280's but who just don't feel the need to compete.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 23-Mar-17




Limbwalker, there was no criticism of the shooters on here in my post. That's the trouble with emotionless internet, some folk aren't getting the context.

Now, my thrust was toward David A, who seemed to be demeaning those whose accuracy may not be what he thinks it should be. I've been on here since the forum started, and everyone knows I'm into shooting accurately and promoting that. Dewayne and Calvin should also know that I support guys like them wholeheartedly. Certainly not being negative about good shooters. Holy cow.

From: limbwalker
Date: 23-Mar-17




Sorry. Like you said it's hard to tell. That's why it surprised me. Cuz that's not like you.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 23-Mar-17




Sometimes I maybe don't 'splain well.

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 23-Mar-17




George I know we have your support, and appreciate it ! We would rather help someone beat us, than to beat up on a new guy. Cal

From: David A.
Date: 23-Mar-17




George, I don't demean people. Sorry if any of my posts conveyed that.

Rather the issue is identifying a huge problem that by some of the discussion here would point to 99% of trad. archers not being able or not interested, or not getting the teaching required to be highly accurate.

From: David A.
Date: 23-Mar-17




JRW, Matt Potter has said all kinds of bad things about you know what, yet when I went out of my way to meet him in Missoula to demonstrate my methods for him, he refused to meet with me or see me shoot. I offered to meet with the following day, still he wasn't interested. I'm sure he is an excellent shot, but it seems his mind was made up, I certainly sensed a shock at the other end of the phone when I said "Hi, I'm here, it'll be nice to meet and shoot a little or at least I can show you the methods in person"...He suddenly wasn't interested although online he had virtually challenge me to show up at his fly shop. Which is what I did. Bought a few things, too.

From: Jeffer
Date: 23-Mar-17




"Rather the issue is identifying a huge problem that by some of the discussion here would point to 99% of trad. archers not being able or not interested, or not getting the teaching required to be highly accurate."

David I hope you don't mind but I am going to break this down a bit for clarity. Just to add another person's view point if I may.

"huge problem" - I have to ask, to who? I know a lot of people who play golf and never break 90, and never will break 90, but they don't mind because they just like to get on the course once a week for the fresh air, friendship and release the pressures they have accumulated over the last week of working very stressful jobs. Not every one has the competitive spirit to care if they break 90. They have lives outside of golf (or in this case archery) and that sport has a low priority. So in short this perceived "huge problem" is the way you view it and not them.

"not being able to" - Again see above paragraph. Also many, no matter how much they practice, or how many lessons they get will never break 90 because they just don't have the athletic ability to do so. That's just life, yet they are still able to enjoy their pursuit regardless. Would you deny this of them because of it?

"not getting the teaching" - the teaching is available if they wish it. They just don't wish it enough to bother. Kind of like someone who might be out of shape and/or fat. Sure they'd love to walk around with a 6 pack. There is definitely not a lack of teaching or knowledge to learn how to achieve one. They just don't want one bad enough to bother. You can't force feed knowledge into someone who doesn't care. Again it is an individual choice and not something you or I should be worried about.

If I think about myself here for a minute... if I may say so I would likely have the ability to improve enough to compete with some of these guys if I wanted to. Yeah I am going to try and get down to Lancaster next year because I think it would be fun, if I can manage it money wise and time wise, but I still am not going to dedicate myself to the full extent which I know it would take to maybe win down there. I want to go for the experience and besides that, I have been involved in sports at the National level before and I am just not willing to commit myself to that amount and let everything else in my life sacrifice for it. I have other interests and family which will still have to be balanced. When I was at the National level in my sport I was young, single and had responsibilities to no one else other than myself.

Anyway, I hope this has maybe helped give a different perspective on the topic.

Cheers Jeff

From: BigStriper
Date: 23-Mar-17




Jason (JRW) you are right about Matt Potter, I seen both you and Matt shoot at the IBO at Cloverdale a couple of years ago,if memory serves me right you and Matt were 2 of the Best shooters there,well I guess I would have to include Calvin and Dewayne also and a few more, LOL.There are a lot of Good shooters that most people on here don't know about.

Kurt

From: RymanCat
Date: 23-Mar-17




David when might you be posting your achievements animals arrowd or shoot wins? I been watching but came across a fire department bulletin to watch out for David A the thread fire starter.

O'l Frisky is an armature weed eater when it comes to thread length fires.LOL

From: David A.
Date: 23-Mar-17




Well, that's off topic. Hope Phil just deletes it. I would like to give a little demo to Graysquirrel as well. Sorry, it was just too funny.

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 23-Mar-17




Of all the shoots I go to 1% goes to win ,the other 99 % go to enjoy and participate !! including myself, I know I'm not going to win the Vegas Shoot but I go to be a part of it. Cal

From: David A.
Date: 23-Mar-17




"I didn't think you had it in you...?" *I'm your huckleberry...*

https://youtu.be/R8OWNspU_yE

From: JRW
Date: 23-Mar-17




Kurt,

That was a fun weekend. When Matt and I faced off in the 3 Rivers Shoot we both went 10-10-10. Before the fourth target he told me I should shoot and 8. I told him to shoot a 5. Long and short, he closed out with 10-10. I went 8-10. He went home with the big check.

I miss shooting with that guy, a great shot and an even better person.

From: David A.
Date: 23-Mar-17




Ryan, I'm a simple bowhunter, not a tournament archer. I was just watching Tombstone and couldn't resist.

I'm sure Matt and I would have gotten along fine if the meeting had taken place. I'm very friendly, and even with the STAR Method, I still miss on game and make the occasional bad shot. Only Chuck Adams never misses.

From: Bowlim
Date: 23-Mar-17




"I've also come across my share of very good athletes from others sports who have decided to take up archery."

Good point, a classic example being Michael Jordan's desire to be good in baseball or golf. He certainly wasn't bad, but not all that remarkable either.

In pointing our how thin our sport is at times, I am no trying to tear it down. I am curious whether we are for the most part missing the top of the pyramid, and therefore almost anyone could shoot 275, or whether we have a standard distribution, but not that many players.

I think you are right that scores would probably not be revolutionized with better players. Though, Tiger was an interesting example there (not a big fan myself), he was so much better that they would have had to make the game significantly harder, which they couldn't do because the Augusta has track limitations, and efforts to make the US Open harder lead to random outcomes, which is true in different ways for the British open. I don't think Tiger ever shot a 59, and if he did, not often. Yet he actually drove a few great players slightly bonkers and they more or less fell apart. Strange world.

From: Jeffer
Date: 23-Mar-17




Yeah David I think you hit the nail on the head there. I bet all of us here would likely get along great around a camp fire or at a shoot somewhere or on a hunt together and that is one of the main things. All of this archery stuff brings us together in the long run regardless of how we all shoot. Many seem to forget all of that while sitting behind a computer screen.

From: bodymanbowyer
Date: 23-Mar-17




I'm very good when I'm shooting by myself ;-) JF

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 23-Mar-17




This was on the internet so it must be right :)

"So, what is a very good NFAA 300 score? 2004 US Olympic Archer John Magera:

I and my fellow Olympic recurve archers, with our full blown FITA rigs [Olympic- style recurves with sights, stabilizer rods and such-gh] will generally score in the 295-300 range on that NFAA face, with about 40-50 X’s. My personal best in competition was a 299 with 42 x’s…

As for the top “traditional” recurve and longbow shooters [bows without sights or other tech gimicks-gh], they will be in the 260-275 range. That’s mighty fine shooting…

Now those are top scores. Magera adds that he reached the 270s with his target barebow rig and shot in the 240s with his trad huntng rig–scores he considers an accomplishment, even for former Olympic Archer. For most, scoring between 220-240 will be an achievement, and getting past that first 200 will be a good start. "

From: limbwalker
Date: 23-Mar-17




Bowlim,

I think if a LOT of people had proper instruction, they could shoot 275's.

Case in point - I have a family that I've coached literally from SCRATCH - meaning they all shot their first arrows with me - and all three that shoot barebow/trad, are now shooting 275's including the 50+ year old mom who never touched a bow until 3 years ago. What are the chances of that? That a mom, dad and a son would all shoot that high with NFAA trad gear?

That just tells me that with proper motivation and direction, 275's are possible for just about anyone who wants them.

From: David A.
Date: 23-Mar-17




Good job of coaching, limbwalker. I also bet archery is a lot more fun for them having good form and excellent accuracy.

From: zetabow
Date: 23-Mar-17




"In short: don't ever dismiss someone just because they don't go to big shoots. They may shoot a LOT better than you."

2009 I won Euro Fields and beat some Finnish guy by 300 points (he had been shooting about 18 months and his first International), we became friends and he visited me a few times and I visited him, the following year he won the World Fields and the next two in 2012 and 2014.

He had passion for shooting and grew into a world class shooter with dedication and hard work, a lot of people don't have the money or time to develop in such a way but I never judge an Archer because I just don't know at what stage they are with their shooting, a couple of years down the line they could be the next big tourney shooter, it kinda keeps things interesting.

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 23-Mar-17




Limb walker,

That's the catch.....I've never had any coaching and have only ever even shot with other people a few times. After a few years of experimenting, I am just now figuring WHAT I want to learn

From: limbwalker
Date: 23-Mar-17




David,

I take great pride in knowing that that family will enjoy the sport of archery together for a long time. They travel together to tournaments and I can just imagine all the memories they will have through this sport. All because someone took the time to start an archery program and teach.

Not tooting my own horn as much as I'm encouraging those of you who have the knowledge, to get out there and share it. You WILL change lives. I promise.

From: hammer08
Date: 24-Mar-17




Jason (JRW) is on that list too.

I'm not sure there are a ton of shooters who can average 275 but there are probably more than you think. The bar has really been raised over the past few years.

From: zetabow
Date: 24-Mar-17




I shot a 285 today (BB Stringwalking), friend is going to Euro Indoors next week so I trained with him, we shot cold with no warm up, pleased that I got stronger towards the end as shot 3 x 25's in a row, normally last few ends is a struggle to focus.

Of course this is practice, not competition. Not done much Indoors this season, think it's been 2 months since I've been to my indoor range.

From: Jimmy Blackmon
Date: 24-Mar-17




Jason - left you off the list - duh. You are certainly on that list, so it grows and grows.

Matt's story is a little different that "he was an incredible shooter and just decided to answer the call, travel to Clarksville and dusted everyone off."

Matt attended one of Rod's clinics and got fired up. He decided to go all in and fully committed with a very open mind. He very quickly mastered string walking. He then decided to travel to Twin Oaks. I shot two or three rounds with him that weekend and he shot amazing. From there he kept getting better.

Traveling to shoots for Matt is a significant commitment. Missoula isn't on the beaten path.

From: BenMaher
Date: 24-Mar-17




I broke 225 with my Longbow a few years ago ... Was a great day . I once broke 250 in my practice with a curve running a stab .....

But the difference shooting those scores and doing 275 regularly is almost inconceivable for me ...

My hats off the those chaps .

From: David A.
Date: 24-Mar-17




I refuse to shoot that many arrows because of a hand injury, but if I can't shoot 90 and above for 20 arrows, I'm unhappy.

I claim no special talent and hardly practice compared to tournament standards. It's simply about near perfect alignment and a near perfect release. But then I'm using a bow with great mass (steel riser) that I can dominate the target with. You must be able to hold dead steady, as steady as the compound guys do with their let off.

From: David A.
Date: 24-Mar-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



Here's the bow. The overdraw and entire riser is steel. Using a simple Merrill sight with one pin. Yes, I know a sight is frowned upon, there are ways to improve the standard crawl technique as well, but you really need a special bow there, too because of the unbalanced limb stress.

From: David A.
Date: 24-Mar-17




Just 54". Black Widow Hunter Express, no longer made. Some people say overdraws are less accurate than a standard riser, but I think in the right hands with someone who can put in the practice time, they could shoot a perfect round with this short a bow. It's the mass which helps so much and yet most bowhunters are looking for very light wt. bows and they brag on how light their longbow or recurve is.

From: David A.
Date: 24-Mar-17




Actually, I think a 50" bow can do it with my releases although no one is making such a bow at leas that I have seen. It's now about bow mass and dominating steadiness since bow length becomes almost irrelevant.

From: Longcurve
Date: 19-Jan-18




I saw the list posted by jimmy of people who can shoot over 275. Looks pretty small. Do you really think that's all that can shoot 275? What do you other target shooters think? Jrw demmer do you think there are more shooters out there that shoot 275? Looking at the previous years nationals for USA archery and nfaa I think so

From: 2 bears
Date: 19-Jan-18




GAMING the SYSTEM Many here are experts at what they do. Some don't perform in front of crowds,some don't have the endurance,some just don't care to compete. You have to practice and set up for different things. Marsha-any deer within 15 yards is in the freezer.Jeffer- moving targets. Matt -sparrows off of cornstalks. Don't challenge George and many others here in their backyard. Vegas-heavy arrows for the specific point on. 3d- arrows as light and fast as allowable + practice distance judging. You also develop a sighting system for the game played. Then there is Jimmy who shoots all kind of bows and aiming methods. A competitor,instructor,and deadly in the woods. Whatever the scores he is an ARCHER. Arnie is an excellent instructor/problem solver. To end this, any one that is satisfied with where they are has stopped learning and improving. Never bet against a man at his game.My hat is off to all the experts here. >>>----> Ken

From: Zildjian51
Date: 19-Jan-18




Well here's my take on the subject. As stated in one of the Star Wars movies,"There's always a bigger fish!" Once you're on top, there's only one way you can go.

From: JRW
Date: 19-Jan-18




Longcurve,

Every year that list grows more and more. The level of talent in barebow recurve archery has just exploded over the past few years. Two years ago at USA Archery field trials, John and I figured there were probably 8-10 people who could have easily made the team. This year I suspect that number will two or three times that many.

Even in my home state, it was just three or four years ago when I used to purposely shoot in the Olympic Recurve class with my Barebow rig because there was often no one else in Barebow. Now here are a lot of Barebow shooters and the class is getting tougher every year. There's one club in Chicago (North Side Archery Club) that is churning out good Barebow shooters left and right.

Keep an eye out for the results of the upcoming Lancaster Classic. I'll bet it'll be shocking to see how many people turn in huge scores.

From: Tal McNeill
Date: 19-Jan-18




Jason: I wish we were seeing that kind of growth in the South. Things seem to be going in the other direction here.

From: Styksnstryngs
Date: 19-Jan-18




I average 260-265 with a 40cm FITA target at 18m with a full Oly setup (23" riser, long stab, sight) and maybe 240-250 barebow.

From: Demmer
Date: 20-Jan-18




Longcurve, like Jason said, the list is growing every year. Just speaking USA only, we probably have about twenty that can do it regularly week in weak out. I'm talking people that go to shoots. Probably a few others that don't. This is for the NFAA 275. For the 275 FITA half, that list is very small that can do it in tournaments. I would really love to touch on Jason's comment about the classic, but i will bite my tongue. I don't want to put that kinda pressure on the other shooters, but I feel that we will see some pretty good scores this year on the top end even with dropping the stab from the rules. I know Fawn shot the rules we have this year at last year's shoot, and she shot awesome.

Tal, it depends where you are at. Its all regional on the growth. Some are down, some are up, but overall it's way up.

Jason, the team trials this year as you know it will be the very hardest to date. Gotta love it!

From: zetabow
Date: 20-Jan-18




Think it's limiting to pick just one round like indoors, maybe define a top shooters by how they place in National/world tourneys Field, 3D and Indoors.

I shoot indoor practice 3 times a month if I'm lucky, I can shoot decent Barebows scores but it's far from world class, in my mind the difference of level between Field/3D and my Indoor level is very big.

From: zetabow
Date: 20-Jan-18




I'll add I won medals in a couple of World Indoor champs for both Longbow and Barebows but for me to get to any serious level I need 2-3 days a week practice several months before the tourney.

Who knows how many world class potentials out there but in the wrong location or Job to develop themselves to that level. For Field/3D I have those facilities on my doorstep and it's easy to build to a good level, Indoors I don't have that access and scores are below what I would expect to be competitive internationally.

From: Longcurve
Date: 20-Jan-18




I did some research. Went back and looked at nfaa sectional and indoor Nationals as well as usa archery Nationals from the past 2 years. Adding those to Jimmy's list I came up with 24 people who have shot 275+. The list gets tiny when you make the cut off 280. The people who have shot 280+ multiple times are Fawn Girard Scott Bills John Demmer Grayson Partlowe Bobby Worthington Dewayne Martin. The only person to shoot 290+ multiple times John Demmer. The people on that list are shooting other worldly scores and doing it at bigger tournaments. I can only wonder at what their local or backyard scores are like. So those are the people we know of but there are probably many more that don't go to shoots who are just as good. I'm sure they're out there. Not too long ago I saw a younger guy stringwalking at a shop in Richmond who never missed the gold! So don't underestimate the talent out there that no one has ever heard of. My guess is there are at least 100 people who are capable of shooting 275.

From: zetabow
Date: 20-Jan-18




Erik Jonsson without a doubt is the best Field and Indoor Barebow Archer in the world.

Wa18 he just shot a 584 last weekend, he is the benchmark we all strive for.

From: Demmer
Date: 20-Jan-18




Stephen, I try not to get caught up in who's the best, so I never engage in those conversations. The best is so day to day and very opinionated. In basketball you hear people saying Kareem Jabar was the best ever undeniable, Hakeem was the best, Jordan, LeBron James... There really is no undeniable best. Best score doesn't always s the best. If that was the case, wilt Chamberlain will never be surprised at over 50 a game as the best season ever, but we still get those arguements. Haha. I do wish we had more world competitions once every two years for field sucks especially when some have to travel several thousands of miles to compete in it. Also, club shooting in a very controlled environment is way easier than on a national stage with a lot of your top competitors on the same line and same bail. We do always strive for perfection though. I think it was Timo who laid down a 299/298 at one of his events on the blue and white before??? There will always be open ended arguements on who's the best and will never be without a doubt. Too many aspects of barebow out there. Field, indoor, 3d, clout, and target.

From: reddogge Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 20-Jan-18




"Who cares"

Comments like this flabbergast me. Twice posted by the same person.

Obviously a lot of us do. Perhaps more than how many deer he has killed or how good a backyard bowman he is.

From: zetabow
Date: 20-Jan-18




Yeah I watched Timo at his best both Indoors and on a WA Field round. It's inspiring.

I said about Erik because he won more BB world's than anyone else but I know what you mean.

You've got a lot more to offer, those world title will come pretty soon for you.

From: Beendare
Date: 20-Jan-18




^ Some good comments

I've had the pleasure of shooting with some of the top guys mentioned above and they were all fantastic guys and very helpful [btw, you guys forgot Tom Daly] Someone trashing Matt Potter- ridiculous! He is a fantastic guy and he doesn't know me from Adam.

Tournament shooting is a whole different animal from backyard hero shooting. I think it was Nick Saban that said, "You never know what player you recruited until you see him under the lights"...so true.

Tournament shooting is a great way to help your shooting. ....whether in the woods or whatever.

From: Beendare
Date: 20-Jan-18




Oh....and we are lucky to have some of these great shooters chiming in on this forum!

From: Bowlim
Date: 20-Jan-18




If you look at where the money is in other sports it is in speed. Archery is kinda old school with it's emphasis on grinding out the same mediocre shot over and over until the boredom decides a winner. 3D was a great idea, but was expensive on all fronts, range area, bows, and targets. And 3D is easy to cheat, and once cheated returns to being a version of spots shooting. Meanwhile the kids are playing video games and watching movies based on speed and reactive archery and then trudging over to the Olympic archery field.

We need something new.

From: Demmer
Date: 20-Jan-18




Beendare, this was for guys and gals shooting recurve, so Tom was never mentioned or the other great compound shooters.

Stephen, it's hard to argue your field stats, but this side of the pond gets zero exposure for field. On a field worlds year, most of us that go it's our second field shoot of the year. It's very difficult to do really well when it's pretty much foreign. I never even heard of field until 4-5 years ago. Sad, but that's how it is here. It's like us saying so a d so is the best 3d shooter ever because they hold more IBO world titles than anyone else. We can only be a product of our environment. I've been working my butt off trying to get more exposure since I went to my first one in Croatia. To see exactly how passionate the rest of the world are for the barebow class was absolutely amazing. I heard about it, but seeing it and talking to them about it was Incredible. Got me to thinking about it and trying to help change things in the states how we are handled. It's been going ok, hopefully with the popularity at an all-time high every year, we are soon to making even more progress.

From: zetabow
Date: 20-Jan-18




I have similar issues, the only WA Field course here is the one I built, I went to Stockholm a couple of weeks before Dublin to train, 5 different ranges in a weekend, some awesome terrain.

Can't make world's this year my youngest son starting school that week.

This Summer I start designing and building the courses for IFAA world Fields, big job as I'll be doing a lot of it on my own.

From: zetabow
Date: 20-Jan-18




I have similar issues, the only WA Field course here is the one I built, I went to Stockholm a couple of weeks before Dublin to train, 5 different ranges in a weekend, some awesome terrain.

Can't make world's this year my youngest son starting school that week.

This Summer I start designing and building the courses for IFAA world Fields, big job as I'll be doing a lot of it on my own.

From: Mo0se
Date: 20-Jan-18




Nothin beyond 17.3 yards and a pie plate :)

From: zetabow
Date: 20-Jan-18




WA3D World's in France, nothing under 17.5 yards, threw most of the Americas off, DeWayne and Calvin adapted pretty quickly, some of the better known European shooters were also caught out, not the distances but the unfamiliar French 3D's.

Got to give DeWayne credit, shooting 3under in Stringwalking div and still making top 8.

From: reddogge Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 21-Jan-18




As for field shooting I am lucky to have not one but 3 courses within 45 minutes of me in MD. However I've found the only people shooting them are compounders and the courses are trimmed for the compound and don't allow our higher trajectories at the longer ranges due to overhanging limbs, etc. The last one I shot I had to stay at 50 yards or under.

From: shade mt
Date: 21-Jan-18




One thing every single one of you need to remember is, everyone of us has the right to pursue his or her passion in life.

I usually don't get involved in the tournament archery discussions, simply because it is not my passion, I love archery, I shoot nearly everyday. But I would much rather be up in a treestand than standing on a line trying to put numbers on a scoreboard.

By the same token there are some of you that are very tournament minded, you live for the thrill of competition and high scores.

To judge "top level" by scores alone in the tournament field, or Olympic stadium is justified.

To judge "top level" by score alone for the rest of the archers is not. There are a lot of "top level" archers that will never look like an Olympic archer when they shoot, (nor do they want to)...Most of them are at home in a treestand, or with one foot in a brush pile swinging on a bouncing cottontail.

Just a friendly reminder, for all of us...Both sides can get a little highminded at times.

From: shade mt
Date: 21-Jan-18




To put that last post in perspective.

All of the men you mention that have scored high scores and capable of high average's are most certainly top level, competitors and archers.

I have a video here of wingshooting pheasants with recurves and longbows.

I can assure you their form, stance, shot sequence ect...differs obviously, from the tournament, Olympic archer.

But they are all "top level".

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 21-Jan-18




Steve (shade mt), that was very well put, and thought out.

I agree.

There are "top level" archers out there who we will never know of.

Why? Because they don't care if we know. They do it solely for their own "private" pleasure.

Rick

From: dm/wolfskin
Date: 21-Jan-18




I worry about how well I shoot and not others. It's my shooting that counts.

From: timex
Date: 21-Jan-18




Iv never been a great target shot but have always been cool as a cucumber when it comes to critters...on the other hand have known guys who could where out an x ring indoors & completely miss deer @ 20yds ??? Go figure

From: Longcurve
Date: 21-Jan-18




I don't know who Erik is but that's an amazing score. Don't know much about field either. Indoor scores are easy to compare and take consistency. It's a good way to compare top level tournament archers. I would be happy as heck to shoot 270 myself so hats off to the people who are doing it in tournaments.

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Jan-18




Lol Steve. I know there are a lot of great backyard shooters. That's never really been a secret, so thanks for making sure all of us can remember that. Haha this post was about indoor scores, so remember, that was the topic at hand.

From: Terry Lightle Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Jan-18




Do not know what it takes to be a top shooter,but do know that I am not one,just get lucky and have a critter run in front of my arrow every now and then!

From: zetabow
Date: 22-Jan-18




Terry those 3D's do the same, run right in front of my arrows lol

From: Longcurve
Date: 22-Jan-18




Demmer you have a good idea of Barebow shooters in the US. Which shooters aside from you are capable of shooting a 285 nfaa round in a tournament? I am curious to know who and how many we have here. Something all of us can aspire to.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 22-Jan-18




I can shoot a 275 on a 3d round but where I shoot the shots are less than 30 yards

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 22-Jan-18




But I can't shoot with the top level guys on here Like Dwayne etc.

From: zetabow
Date: 22-Jan-18




I've shot 275 in competition fairly consistently, if I'm 285 in practice it feels normal for that 275 in BB.

Longbow wood arrows and split finger I was mid 240's

This season, injury and lack of practice have pushed my scores very low, out of all the rounds Indoors seems to require the most effort and confidence to shoot decent scores, it's also the most satisfying when it comes together.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 22-Jan-18




[[[ "Lol Steve. I know there are a lot of great backyard shooters. That's never really been a secret, so thanks for making sure all of us can remember that. Haha this post was about indoor scores, so remember, that was the topic at hand." ]]]

Yeah John, I kind of lost sight of that also. My agreement with Steve was just that. Agreement.

It was in no way intended to discount, discredit, or put down the accomplishments you & others have worked for, and achieved.

I know what it takes, and my hat is off to those who have achieved it, and even to those who haven't yet strive to do so.

Rick

From: Medicare Bhtr
Date: 22-Jan-18




With the Lancaster Classic, Las Vegas and NFAA Nationals within two months we will see the “cream rise to the top”! Looking forward to seeing new high scoring records. Good luck guys!

From: Trillium
Date: 22-Jan-18




I'm just a middling club shooter, mostly local 3D events. I know a couple of the top- shelf folks very well, and many to say "HI" to at an event. I don't get out much, but in my limited experience I think, out of the entire traditional archery community, fewer than 50% can/could keep an average in the 220s on an NFAA blue face. Maybe 25% in the 230s, 15% in the 240s. That leaves 10% for everything above 250 -- and since getting better at those levels requires a geometrically increasing amount of work, anyone who has a 260 or better average is shooting really, really well. Sure, a counterbalanced metal riser with carbon-foam limbs, a custom grip, plunger and rest, etc. are more consistent rigs than what many traditional folks enjoy shooting (me included...), but it is manifestly NOT the bows that make those women and men good archers, but their knowledge about how to practice well, and practicing well often.

BUT what amazes me more than the lotus-eaters are all the folks "in the middle" who are so very impressive. I shoot IBO events occasionally and some area tournaments (and get my butt kicked often enough!) and ALWAYS meet/shoot with/watch folks who are darn good 3D archers. So, I echo what others here have previously said -- the world many not be home to many elites, but IS filled with really good archers who are only known among their circle of archery friends, who are more interested in earning "bragging rights" in their local clubs than in big-time tournaments, and who are having a blast of fun (and maybe some frustration!) in the process. Keep it up, and I look forward to meeting and shooting with you (when the let me out of the asylum...)!

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Jan-18




Rick no worries, just had to chuckle a bit. I'm a pretty big sports fan and watch the best of the best get nit picked on all the time, so none of that stuff ever bothers me nor ever will. Even the greats shoot better in the back yard than what their shoots show. So just had to giggle a little. Most of the great shooters don't really get offended, a little more motivated maybe, but this sport is always all in good fun.

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Jan-18




David, off the top of my head of the guys that are capable currently at this point in time, Dewayne Martin, Grayson Partlowe, John Dillinger, Ben Rogers, Alan Eagleton, Jeff Roy, Scott Bills, Rick Stonebreaker, Bobby Worthington, Cory Culvas, Mark Lynde. That's off the top of my head. Those are the ones if they went to an nfaa tournament would have a high probability of shooting that. Now, that is with no stabs. If you add stabs, they have an even higher rate of likelihood. Some of these guys don't shoot nfaa, but shoot fita, so a lot of them are geard for longer range shooting so they have a lower anchor and would need to stringwalk. But their equipment is at a lower mechanical advantage than the nfaa Trad class. I don't know if that makes sense to everyone, so please pardon it if it doesnt. I'm sure if I think about it a little more, I could share some more names. There are definitely others I know, but these are the ones I know that have a pretty high chance. A few on that list can do it all almost all the time.

From: Jim Keller
Date: 22-Jan-18




John, I'm looking forward to your seminar Thursday evening at Spooky Nook. Also, looking forward to the classic on Saturday. Good luck. Jim

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Jan-18




I forgot Jimmy Blackmon and Fawn Girard. See couple minutes.

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Jan-18




Thanks Jim, hope you will get something out of the seminar. There will be a Q&A with a panel of shooters, so bring some good questions with you too.

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Jan-18




I wish I can go back and edit. Add JRW. Haha

From: Longcurve
Date: 22-Jan-18




Thats more than I expected because 285 is awfully high. I've never heard of a few of those shooters but I don't get out much. My hats off to you all and thank you for the inspiration.

From: limbwalker
Date: 22-Jan-18




"If you add stabs, they have an even higher rate of likelihood. Some of these guys don't shoot nfaa, but shoot fita, so a lot of them are geard for longer range shooting so they have a lower anchor and would need to stringwalk. But their equipment is at a lower mechanical advantage than the nfaa Trad class. I don't know if that makes sense to everyone, so please pardon it if it doesnt..."

Makes perfect sense to me John.

I had the honor of joining that 285 club one time in competition, and it was only because of that big a.. 12" stabilizer on the end of my rig that I could do it. Period.

From: LB1975
Date: 22-Jan-18




Who cares about shooting paper? I seriously doubt there is anyone on this forum that could match John Shultz today at his age let alone when he was in his prime. Howard Hill, John Shultz these are the guys that impress me, paper punchers are just that and I couldn't care less.

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Jan-18




John, can you believe I have friends that still to this day that say a stab does absolutely nothing for them score wise? Haha.

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Jan-18




Mr Phillips, thank you for your time and thoughts. I don't know who Howard Hill or David Shultz is, but I sure would like to meet them one day.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 22-Jan-18




[[[ LB1975 said: "Who cares about shooting paper? I seriously doubt there is anyone on this forum that could match John Shultz today at his age let alone when he was in his prime. Howard Hill, John Shultz these are the guys that impress me, paper punchers are just that and I couldn't care less." ]]]

This is the kind of attitude, that influences some folks from ever reaching their potential.

I would bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut, Mr. Hill did not, and Mr Shultz does not share this attitude with you.

By the way - They both impress me also, but their shooting isn't the only thing impressing me. Their positive attitude toward other archers & bowhunters has a lot to with it.

8^)

Rick

From: LB1975
Date: 22-Jan-18




Demmer if you don't know who Howard Hill is you don't matter.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 22-Jan-18




JD, you obviously should have inserted a smilie face. 8^)

Rick

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Jan-18




?? lol

From: rraming Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Jan-18




No idea but for the goofball that said the average for compound guys is 285 if fricken nuts. I spent two winters with them, not a chance! Maybe 260!

From: zetabow
Date: 22-Jan-18




I watched Byron shoot 3D in Germany, he wasn't great, doesn't mean I have any less respect for his trick shooting skills.

VERY few Archers that are top level across all disciplines, the sport is so varied it's hard to be good at everything.

From: DanaC
Date: 23-Jan-18




It's the mental game that suffers over a long course of fire. Maintaining good form over 60 shots is not easy! That's twice as many shots as a typical 3D course.

My normal practice sessions are probably 30-40 arrows. Then the brain wants to go tree some squirrels ;-)

Long term focus, over a course of fire, or the ability to put in practice rounds consistently over a long time (years!) is what separates the best from the rest. Those of us who slack off, get distracted, make excuses, well we might shoot 'okay' but championship level? Doubtful.

That said, I still enjoy shooting and (slowly) improving.

From: Demmer
Date: 23-Jan-18




Dana, so true. Shooting indoors is such a mental game. We all make bad shots. They are inevitable, but what you do after one is what separates everyone. If you make a bad shot in 3d, it's not that big of a deal. You walk to the next target and shoot a different looking target and distance. When you make a bad shot indoors, you have to shoot the same target again. What makes it even harder is when you make a good feeling shot and hit sub par and wonder what you did wrong. Lol.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 23-Jan-18




One day You will meet the unbeaten one John I am confident. I have faith in you.

From: shade mt
Date: 23-Jan-18




Zetabow...I agree wholeheartedly with your last post.

Demmer...never intended to discredit tournament shooters...not in the least.

Archery is I big sport my friend. From us Bowhunters to the tournament shooters. Many top level archers. take care

From: shade mt
Date: 23-Jan-18




meant a big sport. sorry

From: DeerSpotter
Date: 25-Jan-18




When comparing how good others are Hey it can make a difference on how we do !

Sometimes better, sometimes not

But maybe we should define top archers !

And if we figure it out ! Does it make a difference today or tomorrow ?

Just wondering>>>......................> our own best competition is our self !

DS

From: 3D Archery
Date: 25-Jan-18




LB1975, if as you said " I couldn't care less". Then why did you post? If you posted means you cared enough to do it.

Then you wrote "Demmer if you don't know who Howard Hill is you don't matter". Really? that is the new "Gold Standard"? knowing who Howard Hill is? One, he was joking. Two, I know of him, but could not tell you much about him, but I still enjoy archery.

From: Terry Lightle Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 25-Jan-18




The bottom line is that everybody enjoys the type of archery they choose to do be it paper 3d or killin critters!

From: DanaC
Date: 25-Jan-18




Re John Demmer - "We all make bad shots. They are inevitable, but what you do after one is what separates everyone."

That's true even in hunting. I know of one guy who made a poor shot on a deer and dam' near gave up bowhunting, he was so bummed. Not saying one should dismiss it lightly, but knowing how to regroup is a valuable skill/mental discipline that might best be learned on targets.

From: Longcurve
Date: 29-Jan-18




The Lancaster classic this weekend was fun to watch. Not much Barebow coverage until finals but it's understandable I reckon. I downloaded the rcherz app on my cell phone and looked through scores. The pressure at this shoot must be high because there weren't many who would of shot a 285 nfaa. i found this to be interesting

John Demner 292 566 Greyson Partlowe 285 550 Scott Bills 283 555 John Dillinger 283 550 Ben Rogers 279 548 Rick Stonebraker 279 537 Jeff Daniels 279 537 Dwayne Martin 278 540 Mark Lynde 276 540 Fawn Girard 276 534

Those were The top 10 lancaster qualifiers. Good shooting but not as many shot 285 like demmer said. Some people on his list didn't get to 275. And good shooting Richard Barker in the finals. He felt no pressure

From: Jimmy Blackmon
Date: 31-Jan-18




Too many thoughts to write them all after reading this. A few quick bullets: - Howard Hill punched a lot of paper - The only true comparison of accuracy is target archery - I killed 13 deer with a bow in 2016. John Demmer killed less. He is still a better shot than me. What we do in the woods can't be compared. Too many unknown variables. - The mental game is what it comes down to at the top. I shot three x 300 ends at home before going to Lancaster. I shot 286, 290, & 292. I toed the line at LAS and a demon possessed my body. I could not aim no matter how hard I tried. I can execute the shot as good as anyone, but I could not do it there, when it mattered. It was my first time in a tourney in 4 years and I crumbled on the line. - I seem to be a glutton for punishment. I'm going to Vegas where I'll likely eat humble pie again, but I would not miss it for the world. ;-)

From: Greyfox
Date: 31-Jan-18




Good luck in Vegas.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 01-Feb-18




Guess we have some really great indoor shooter that fly NOE even in great company. Glad to see we have a healthy population of shooters in USA. Shooting deer is sure not indoor competition either we can agree. Shooting thru the field at LAS got to pretty sweet.

Far as Rich's win goes pullin sting is pullun string. Better add him to the top your list. :-))

From: Longcurve
Date: 01-Feb-18




Funny thing is Rich didn't even shoot a 275 to qualify 274 to be exact. He got himself shootin right at the right time in those matches. If you did a two day scoring demmer would walk away with it most times. And a combunation of Scott John grayson Ben rounding out the podium. But what fun would that be to us spectators. I don't think the matches always shows the best archer but they sure do show the archer who's shooting best at that particular moment.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 01-Feb-18




Exactly how IBO should do 3d at championships. Shoot it off top 10 or 12 on sunday. Be way cool and spectators can watch like 3r shootdown. Then the hot shooter takes the wood home. Just like Rich

From: JRW
Date: 01-Feb-18




Longcurve,

There is a HUGE difference between a 285 on an NFAA 300 round (blue face, 5-4-3-2-1 scoring) and a 285 on a Vegas round (multi-color face, 10-9-8... scoring). They are not apples-to- apples.

Shooting 270 on a Vegas round is averaging 9 points per arrow. The 9 is the outer yellow, which is the same as the outter 5 ring on an NFAA face. While not likely, shooting a 300 with 0 X count on an NFAA face would be a 270 on a Vegas face.

From: JRW
Date: 01-Feb-18




"Far as Rich's win goes pullin sting is pullun string. Better add him to the top your list. :-))"

And how! He must have had ice water running through his veins. It was a pleasure to watch him destroy the 11 ring like that.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 01-Feb-18




Little speak with big spank.

From: jogilvie69
Date: 01-Feb-18




I can definitely sympathize with Jimmy. It's way different going to a shoot like that than shooting at home or my local shop. The last round I scored at home before I left for Lancasters was a 542. Definitely over my average but I was feeling pretty confident. I shot a 503 in qualifying. I think I was having more trouble with shot execution than aiming. I got to meet a bunch of people and I had a blast. I'm definitely not sorry that I went. It was an awesome shoot.

From: zetabow
Date: 01-Feb-18




This type of qualification, elimination event for some their strategy is simply to qualify, why push yourself and put unnecessary pressure on yourself when it's not required, well played Richard.

The magnitude of the event will keep scores lower also, when you see 1000+ people at a tournament it can be intimidating.

Congrats to all that shot, you had the balls to let the whole world see what you've got. There is a bunch of shooters that won't hand a score card in at a local event. Only in the USA this happens, other places people accept failure and just a stepping stone to success.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 01-Feb-18




Yep Ive said this before. After 30 arrows get posted. Check field in that flight. Try to stay in sight of top. Coming in cold to last match would not be ideal. Yes, i know you can practice prior to. But if your comin out to a guy stoking it. You got the be The Man of Steel. I did like the color man on mike taking the 1 seed. That was like betting against the Cubs two years ago. Color men always take the underdog. Makes the win larger than life in celluloid. No sooner than he did it the 11s started raining. You know the saying "Which hurts more? Getting bit by an elephant or an ant? Dont know mever got bit by and an elephant. That's right. Its the small stuff that gets ya!

From: Longcurve
Date: 01-Feb-18




Jrw I used the rcherz app on my cell phone to convert the fita score to an nfaa. The way richs arrows landed woulda been a 274 nfaa. Thought it was interestin since the thread was all about a 275 nfaa originally. Don't care what his qualification score was he's still the iceman and job well done.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 01-Feb-18




Imagin that?

Put him on this list

From: hammer08
Date: 02-Feb-18




Interesting this thread is going on on the leatherwall of all places.

I love shooting the indoor rounds each winter. It's really the only time I pick up the recurve as there's not much else to do when it's cold out. This year in my leagues I'm averaging 292 31X on the blue face and 561 for the FITA score. I'm extremely pleased with that as I never thought I'd ever shoot above 270 when i first started a few years ago. It takes a little knowledge, the right equipment, and a lot of practice with the right approach to get to that level but I think a lot of people are capable of it if they can combine those things.

My opinion is there are a lot of people out who have the possibility of shooting 275 or 285. The number of people who can shoot that at a tournament however, is small. Tournament pressure is like nothing else I've ever experienced. I'm slowly learning to deal with it with as I attend more tournaments. This past weekend at the Lancaster Classic was probably the most pressure I've ever felt shooting but I still managed to hold it together and shoot ok. Much below my average but still acceptable for me.

Longcurve - It could've been me you saw in Richmond. I do miss the gold more often than I'd like though lol. I shoot at a shop called HNS Archery from time to time. I was probably shooting a blue riser. Where are you from in Va? We could meet up and shoot sometime if you wanted.

Jeff - You shot very well this weekend. I watched you shoot a bit and your form is solid and I'm sure you're capable of shooting big scores. More tournaments will help with the nerves. I know because I've had the same issues unfortunately lol. I do hope to see you around in the future.

And about Rich Barker.. What he did this weekend was pretty amazing. The way he worked through the matches and rose to the occasion against some of the best barebow archers in the country on the big stage was incredible. What an accomplishment! Heck of an archer and a tremendous human being.

From: Demmer
Date: 02-Feb-18




Shawn, I still can never figure out what you are saying half the time. Lol. Having experienced this style of shooting multiple times I can tell you a fee things. You don't enter a match cold, but you do enter the match with heightend nerves. It is way harder to fight through the nerves the first match and relax some afterwards. The key is to get the first match on the win Column. At the world games last year against Pasi, I was Soo nervous, but battled through it and ended up winning. The next match against a tougher opponent at the time, the nerves we're pretty much gone and it was game time. If an edge on the nerves side is ever measured, the person shooting the second match will likely be less nervous than the newcomer. You have that going, but usually your next opponent is a little tougher. Seeding for the shootoffs doesn't really mean much. Obviously you want to be seeded in a favorable bracket and have the best chance to move on. But we all know, the fewer arrows that are shot, the more likely upsets are bound to happen. We had a lot of upsets in the head to heads this year. Seed 2,3,4,5,6 all got knocked out. The highest seed I faced against was the 17th seed because of all the upsets. That's what happens in this style. Not just in barebow, but you can see it in the Olympic division as well. How many wire to wire finishes do you see at the world cups? Next to 0. How many do you see in the oympics? Haven't seen it yet under a format like this or very similar. Sometimes it's about being hot, sometimes it's being fortunate. Sometimes it's a combination of both. Having been the top seed every year, and fortunate enough to survive to finish with the last match every year, I would rather gain the top seed and have to face one match on the stage every time. There ain't no doubt about that. Rich isn't on the list of those shooting 285s. Not now, not yet. So if that is your list you are talking about, I will strongly disagree. And I will emphasize "not yet". He is a great competitor from what I've seen from the very beginning when he started shooting. Just a great guy period. Rich will always have a chance in every match he competes in. No denying that.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 02-Feb-18




Not my list. I will say there out 500 in USA that could got on a the JB list easy. Guys just have other shizzle going during the two or three big indoor dates. I like indoor league. Keeps me tight for Se/SW hunt swing jan-march. Missing two weeks. In Jawgia huntin hogs.

Add some new shooters up on that LIST in Sin City

RLTW~

From: Demmer
Date: 02-Feb-18




500? Ok lol. On the line when it counts, I doubt that Shawn. I'm just being real. Ild love to see 500, but not in my lifetime I'm afraid.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 02-Feb-18




We have a big tent :-)

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 12-Feb-18




After Vegas, is the list swelling or shrinking?

Good to see Spanky shooting well on the Rainbow target.

From: Demmer
Date: 14-Feb-18




Shawn, the list is the same as it has been before even lancaster...... Small. Lol

From: Longcurve
Date: 15-Feb-18




Lost this one for a while. Heghunter don't think Rich belongs on the 285 list. He's never proven he can do that. Can he get hot and have nerves of steel yeah but 285 probly not. 500 a big stretch my man. Not even 50. Not even 10 if you lined em all up tomorrow. Only ones who done it this year at a national size shoot I've seen the results for is demmer Dewayne dillinger and partlowe and I had never heard of the last two. Don't think demmer or the partlowe guy used stabilizers or clickers either. Hammer it coulda been you I saw. It was at hns and it was a taller fellow shooting a blue bow. Looked like you knew what you was about. I live south of Richmond an hour. I don't get out to shoot much but send me a pm.

From: limbwalker
Date: 15-Feb-18




"My opinion is there are a lot of people out who have the possibility of shooting 275 or 285."

This is very true. However very few folks will ever understand what it takes to get there (technique, equipment and mental game) let alone put in the time required. But physically, they do have that ability. I've trained too many 275 NFAA archers from my little club to think otherwise.

"The number of people who can shoot that at a tournament however, is small..."

Again, very true. Being able to perform under pressure is a rare skill. Even rarer are those very few people who perform better under pressure. They are practically like unicorns.

From: JRW
Date: 15-Feb-18




John,

Very true. I think of all the top level archers I know who spent year shooting so-so until they committed to improvement, and I'm optimistic that there are many, many more out there who will break out of their shell at some point. Actually, it's exciting to think about.

From: zetabow
Date: 15-Feb-18




JRW

09 I shot European Field champs in Longbow which I won, met and became friends with Finnish Archer Jarrko Lehtinen, it was his first international and he came around 7th (300 points behind me), AS he was close to Estonia he came to visit and we shot together quite a few times.

The following year he won worlds (eventually went on to win 3 in a row) and 2 Euro Fields and 2 euro Indoor champs.

He just put the time and effort in and it paid off, you just never know who is going to be the next great in this sport.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 15-Feb-18




Didn't read the thread. Some guys like long range shooting. Basically, I don't like sniping. I like up close and always have.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 15-Feb-18




I'm old, worn out, and feeble.

My days of having the opportunity to be good are well behind me.

PLUS, I'm so "good looking" everyone is always staring at me, and I have STAGE FRIGHT !!!!

Stick a fork in me. I'm done. In more ways than one. LOL

Now to a more serious note: Lots of folks have the physical ability, and honed technique to be top dogs, but few are capable of honing the mental game it takes to get it done under pressure, especially the pressure of the "stage".

Rick

From: limbwalker
Date: 15-Feb-18




"He just put the time and effort in and it paid off, you just never know who is going to be the next great in this sport..."

I could say the same about Demmer. In 2013, we shared a bale on day one at Louisville. It was his first "big" tournament IIRC and he was plenty nervous. He even had a miss on that big 'ol blue/white face. But I could tell then he was going to be a great shooter. He had that seriousness and determination that you see in great shooters, and he had a plan to get better.

I remember that day shooting with John fondly. It's always great to see someone go from where they were to the top of the game.

Bob, why use a bow at all then? Sounds like a spear is for you!

From: zetabow
Date: 15-Feb-18




We all start from the bottom and work our way up, I think a lot has to do with who we meet along the way that Inspire us to be better.

Being the best was never my goal, just to be the best I can with a Bow.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 15-Feb-18




285 is next level by first post. Ive only seen one 280+ in comp.

The 275 list that kept getting bigger as thread got bigger.

Ive seen Rich shoot im sure in Tenn. why i say there are many who can shoot that. Watch a kid in west KY one night lay down a mid 280. Why i say there are plenty who have that ability, lots.

Whether they go to a big show and do it is another thing. If you throw out a few names on some list, get ready to add a bunch more ink to it.

Shootin 285's in the barn just aint like on the line where the lights are wa and brite. Sure not my number.

From: stonepoint
Date: 15-Feb-18




Boring topic and it has this many posts.

From: limbwalker
Date: 15-Feb-18




LOL. Then why bother adding to it?

From: stonepoint
Date: 16-Feb-18




I guess I'm bored.

From: DanaC
Date: 16-Feb-18




Maybe the definition of a great archer is one who has used up most of his room for improvement ;-)

From: Longcurve
Date: 16-Feb-18




Hedge hunter I can't figure what you trying to say. Add ink? No. Only 4 have done it this year in a major shoot. Maybe people can do it in the barn as you say but only 4 in our country have shot 285+ in a major shoot this year. And only 2 shooting those "wa" rules some rave about. Theres a buncha good shooters out there. Some can shoot 275 and even do it in competition. 285 is elite of elite. That list won't get a lot of ink

From: David A.
Date: 17-Feb-18




I think you have to look at tournament pressure as a pleasure. I have some experience with it as pole vaulter in some big competitions, but that was a long time ago. You have to learn to love it, not dread it. Seek it out. Just my .02

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 19-Feb-18




Don't think there was any of this Yesterday in East Tenn with a 295 going down.

"Bobby Worthington - but there has been a lot of controversy surrounding Bobby and indoor shooting".

Nope, that I think sealed the deal in NFAA Tenn State. Moved him to the top of that list. 295 in pretty big event in four different locations last weekend.

From: Demmer
Date: 20-Feb-18




Smag, you just had Rich at the top of your list. Make up your mind bro. Lolol

From: Flash
Date: 20-Feb-18




I'd guess there's a big difference between a big competition and a big competition with cameras, a commentator with a shot down elimination format. What do ya think John?

From: Joseph
Date: 20-Feb-18




I've known Bob a long time, and he'd probably be the first to tell you, there isn't much, if any competition in his class at the Tn state indoor. I was the tournament director at one of the venues, and this year's state indoor had poorest attendance in quite some time. Even the compounders didn't show up. They all spent the weekend getting ready for Foley, Al. The overwhelming majority of participants were not even NFAA members, they were USA Archery Free style recurve shooters. Which is somewhat ironic.

Having said all that, By no means am I belittling his score.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 20-Feb-18




Not my list, again. Think that by list started 77-78 posts down. Rich was not on that list. Just on top of the heap. Im saying there are way more folks that can drop a 275 than folks think, period.

So, when ya tow a line at state finals and drop a bomb , cuz the comp did not show, a 295 with two arrows that deflected out is not the same. LMBO

From: Demmer
Date: 20-Feb-18




Smag, love your enthusiasm, but I think you get carried away and blow up a multi event state shoot with next to no competition on the line to the level of being on the line at a national shoot with all your competitors on the same line. 295 is a great score no doubt. But let's not get carried away like it's the ultimate championship. Hahaha. Bobby's opportunity of that will come in Cincinnati. Unfortunately he won't have that much competition there either. None of us do really. Just what nfaa trad is slowly becoming. I go every year and see the adult class dropping in numbers there every year while the older classes getting more. I think as of right now the master senior class has the most signed up. Great for them, bad for the health of the class.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 20-Feb-18




18M is same under every roof. Never made any comparisons. 295 with two bounce outs that were 5's.

Register as ageless and Genderless?

I know my tail aint shootin a 295 ever. Masterfully done BW~

From: JRW
Date: 20-Feb-18




""Bobby Worthington - but there has been a lot of controversy surrounding Bobby and indoor shooting". Nope, that I think sealed the deal in NFAA Tenn State. Moved him to the top of that list. 295 in pretty big event in four different locations last weekend."

That controversy has nothing to do with whether or not he is an excellent shooter.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 20-Feb-18




[[[ "two bounce outs that were 5's." ]]]

How does that happen?

Just curious.

Rick

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 20-Feb-18




Really Never seen a nock hit 5 glace to a four?

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 20-Feb-18




[[[ Really Never seen a nock hit 5 glace to a four? ]]]

Ah, got ya now.

Yeah I've seen that, but you said "bounce outs". That confused me. I was envisioning arrows laying on the floor. LOL

Rick

From: limbwalker
Date: 20-Feb-18




Rick, I've done that too. LOL

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 20-Feb-18




Just did one during my pre dinner 60, outdoor tonite (75)

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 20-Feb-18




LOL John, I've seen it, but never had it happen to me.

Usually the other way round.

Rick

From: Joseph
Date: 20-Feb-18




Bob's an impressive archer, no doubt. And the time he gives to the school kids is exemplary. But I can't have him walking around thinking he can show up and shoot a score like that any 'ole time he feels like it. I tell 'ya, it just wouldn't be right!

From: Joseph
Date: 20-Feb-18




Oh, and by the way, Bob didn't shoot in the Traditional class, he shot in the Barebow class, and I haven't seen the results from some of the other venues, but so far he was the only adult barebow shooter. He was definitely the only one at the venue he shot at.

From: David A.
Date: 21-Feb-18




Do you think anyone can shoot 270s and up with a 52" Kodiak Magnum hunting wt. (50lbs)? Impossible there is a video of such accuracy level? Double impossible using broad heads?

From: David A.
Date: 21-Feb-18




And let us ask, why not more publicity for short bow/real hunting bow competitions? After all, probably half of the competitors/interested parties are bowhunters and are NOT going to use their tournament bows/arrows for bowhunting. There is a bit of disparity in my mind when on the 3d tournaments the serious competitors are all using tournament bows.

Think about it...the tournaments are based on animal targets emulating hunting scenarios, but the serious competitors are using tournament bows vs. actual hunting bows. Of course, some will use their hunting bows, I don't deny that but they are at a severe disadvantage.

From: David A.
Date: 21-Feb-18




In short, it begs the question, who really is the most accurate bowhunter vs. who is the most accurate tournament bow archer? I admit it would be a bit tricky to establish equipment parameters that would make everyone happy. Some of the tournaments make a half hearted effort to do this, but of course again it still ends up with the top competitors using tournament setups vs. their actual hunting bows/arrows.

Probably, I'm p-----g in the wind...and trying to get agreement on what bowhunting accuracy really means would be like herding cats. A funny and unlikely proposition other than trad. longbow class (and even then...light draw wts. blah blah...)

From: JRW
Date: 21-Feb-18




"Oh, and by the way, Bob didn't shoot in the Traditional class, he shot in the Barebow class,"

Excellent. That's the class he should shoot in if walking the string.

From: RymanCat
Date: 21-Feb-18




Get some pie plates out and lets see how good we are since that's the decider on the Leather Wall. No multiple arrows either or aiming points allowed all clean pie plates and shoot for center and lets see the top recognized archers as well shoot that challenge and we will have a spotter.

once you have an arrow in a target its your aiming point and if your good enough you can adjust that's all any of the good target archers do they know how to readjust for score. You don't have that on animals now do we usually.

Shooting at any wild animal and having to place 1 arrow to kill him is much different than target shooters!!!!!!!!!!

killers once again don't play target games they bare down and kill the animal or bird.

Enough said no matter how many of you twist things and present your agenda liberal thinking its all fake news to me.

Whats in your arrow museum. Don't show subordinate animals either show quality!!!!!!!!!!

All animals arrowed are not trophy's when I was a boy I thought like that when I became a man I shot better critters more selective. Younger it was numbers as I got older it was quality!!!!!!!!

Bring on the haters and get ready to get in a long line so bring lunch and drink you will need it.LOL

Oh and a chair to rest in or your arm chair.LOL

From: zetabow
Date: 21-Feb-18




No hate RymanCat but I think the needle got stuck on the record lol

From: Draven
Date: 21-Feb-18




He just crushed his idol - Howard Hill - Zetabow. Or he really thinks he is better than him because he doesn't shoot paper, which is even worse than having a needle stuck on the record.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 21-Feb-18




Yeah Dragging a 72-74" 8lb bow in brush is prolly not ideal. Would do it if my belly was empty I rekon.

Target bow is for target work I think. Why I shoot bows ment for killing stuff or ones I make for 3d. Did shoot a 3D with a G1 one time was and it was kinda like hunting rock chucks with a Carl Gustov MAW.

Indoor is a game nuthin more. Lots of games out there. Its a good game cuz you get to shoot a weapon! Right?

Hunting with bow is not a game but way of life in my house. Feeds me, fed kids, honed the hunter gatherer skills of a warrior sure. Pastime? Maybe to some. Way of hardscrabble life, that would be a big "yes".

From: dean
Date: 21-Feb-18




The big indoor event at Yankton, SD brought out some amazing recurve target shooters. Better than I was back in my target days, by ten point and more. What target based shooters do not like to do is discuss limitations when hunting. Years back, 1970, at the Walton shoot in Sioux Falls, when I was shooting with sights, a couple of wise ass guys on one leg of the 3d, had the nerve to set up targets that required getting dirty and down low and forced us sight shooters to abandon our typical shot. You should have heard us bitch, I was one of the loudest bitchers. I could beat any of those guys, but not when I had to cant my 66" Black Widow and sit on my butt in the mud. How dare they set up a whole leg of the shoot like that? In the 90s I shot that 3d with my son and my short friend Dickie. It rained and turned the place to mud and some wise ass once again set up the back third with odd position targets. This time the mix was trad and compound shooters, a third of them young women both trad and compound. I noticed that the women had no problem getting down and dirty with all of the mud shots. It was the men compound shooters and the upright recurve shooters doing everything they could to stay pretty. On one target there was no way for me to shoot it with my 70" Kodiak Special, the lightest bow I owned at the time, 58#, without sitting flat in a mud puddle and laying the bow on its side with my back touching the stake to make it legal. One step forward and it would a mud slalom event to the bottom of the draw. I hit center lungs, my young son with his short longbow did the same, Dickie with his short advantage, squatted on his knees. Since the target was a difficult jam up it was decided that as many as possible should shoot before the treacherous descent to the target was made. The two gals behind us laughed about the situations and went for the butt shot. Then two pro shooters representing an area company shot. One tried to tilt his compound and get under a branch, he deflected and declared in loud yell, "that one is gone and I ain't looking for it." The next pro got as low as he could squatting and his buddy told him he had to touch the stake. "oh crap, I'll try the other foot." He squatted low from the left hand shooter side of the stake, he aimed hard and he aimed long, as he released all hell broke loose. The shattered carbon arrow went one way his bow went the other and he did a back slide head first in the mud all the way to water in the bottom of the draw. With mud packed up on head when he got up, he said lots of naughty words, of course, the muddy butt ladies hysterical laughing did not help the matter at all.

From: zetabow
Date: 21-Feb-18




Well Draven I just beat Howards record of most Field wins, 200 is now the new benchmark.

It has taken just over 4 years, every Sat Ive Held a Field tourney on my home range (which included several Nationals as well), it's been an Open challenge to all, some invites were by word of mouth (the people I know I can beat) and the remander invites all sent telepathically to most of the top shots mentioned on this thread ;-)

I Even got a Medium to invite Howard but she didn't get a proper reply, she did say he turned in his Grave, something upsetting about my ILF setup and Stringwalking.

From: Draven
Date: 21-Feb-18




The point is beyond the subject. For real now, Howard Hill was shooting 40 and 60 yards when hunting. He had less problems with "keep it inside 15 yards" due to his target archer background. He was Apex Predator because he knew how to shoot, when to shoot and what to do to become the shot he was. I don't dismiss any hunter who's feeding his family successfully, I dismiss the idea that you don't have to shoot a target to be hunter - and this is looked as a bad thing these days. RC is talking about adjusting your shot after the 1st arrow is in. Let me make it clear for him if he doesn't know how his brain works, even if he goes and takes the arrow of the target, his next shot from a similar distance is in the target in a better position because his brain learnt what was needed from his first shot. If it worst, it's because his way of shooting not his brain.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 21-Feb-18




All that coming from the feller who once bragged about gut shooting animals if it was the only shot he had, and he was pretty sure could find the animals later any.

That feller also roams from topic to topic, and injects his insanity for no reason other than to create turmoil.

Yeah, there's no hate, but there most assuredly is "some pity", and a "lot of disgust" pointed at such a sociopath.

Ban the Cat.

Rick

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 21-Feb-18




Yeah, sometimes them guts do get in the way Rick?

Blue Face don't have many associated with them however.

From: David A.
Date: 21-Feb-18




One thing about the top compound tournament shots, in many cases those bows are the one's they actually hunt with - or certainly could hunt without any issues.

Re: Bobby Worthington's 295, I have his whitetail book, but admit I'm curious as to why he usually forgoes the recurve in favor of the compound.

From: RymanCat
Date: 21-Feb-18




Shoot them where they stand!!!!!!!!!!!

Call it BS in the land where fake news and BS artist push their own agenda. If the arrow flys not where you wanted to shoot it then you readjust on target boys don't you. Fake news or show what ya got!!!!!!

Go ahead ban me for telling it like is these Gods are all false and the ones who think they are in the know with nothing to show!!!!!!!!!!

Many don't have guts to shoot animals like that Tricky Ricky because you probably don't have enough tracking kills under you to be able to track a wounded animal like this.LOL

Plus whats the difference if you mis and hit guts than you purposely shoot to kill in guts if that's your only shot and you know your going to take the animal. Its your choice is it not and who cares if you agree or not its not your shot or what you have to go through to recover maybe now is it? If you have the confidence in your tracking skills your going to need them anyways if you mis and hit guts.

So now Trikey Rick is going to get away and talk about a choice someone else makes that he wouldn't? What right does he have. Oh I'm responsible and your not! Not your problem then is it now.

Is it my first choice no not at all. Did I do it more than 2 times purposely no I didn't so now this guy talks if that isn't fake news and what the left is doing than I'll eat my hat! He trys to discredit and says not a hater or is he jealous maybe? possibly?

Really then prove it or back seat it where ya belong

Alice Cooper remember THAT ALONG WITH SKULLS.

And Mr. NBC just how many do you think has been shot purely in guts and on the run for that matter? Just because some can't recover or din't recover a gut shot don't mean many can't.

Theres been more than you guys admit with less than favorable shots and if not then you haven't shot at enough game!

Sick of all this BS. And don't ever tell me you don't readjust that's simply foolish talk. You shoot an arrow to the outside ring then what do you do to get into 10 ring next shot? Come on tell these kids these things that man just get real.

You readjust. You come over or up or down and try not to break form.

Liberals talking again or non killers and don't fool yourself didn't Tricky Rick show a tree house fort that he could have lived in on a baited pile so now are you family with Polosie?

Deep state boys dispel these guys or ban them also but have public tare and feather but we will have to bring our own feathers since we most likely be unable to use any of theirs cause there isn't any but heir talk.LOL

Just trying to tell it like it is about fake news and the taking of animals by arrows as well as targets that seems like can't be admitted about readjusting.

Again no hate more fake news boys from a harden heart and fake news casters.

I have spoken and this is my defense. Take it as you hear it!

Again all comments show what you know or don't know.LOL

False Gods that others have made here need to be reduced from fake news.

Sorry for rank but tricky is a hater read whats said and figure it out for yourself.LOL

From: dean
Date: 21-Feb-18




Draven, back in the day, bowhunters took longer shots even when they did not have a target back ground. You can all call me a slob hunter because I have shot a number of deer over 30 yards. The last two were over 40, both deer were behaving like a 3d target and staring away from me. I think the 15 yard shot became a thing because most bowhunters were practicing in their back yards and hunting out of tree stands that were set up that close. Many claim to be instinctive cannot see the arrow shooters, but when they back up to 30 yards it looks like a scary impossible shot, they must be seeing something that brings them to that conclusion. I maintain that because of the variables, quite often hunting shots do not resemble hunting shots. If your only hunting shots need to resemble target shot, like the last two deer that i killed, there are going to be a lot of shots that get passed up, like the last deer my wife killed with her bow laid over and herself leaning way over to shoot an arrow through a window in the cedar shrubs. The perspectives from either side are oranges and apples and they will never agree.

From: limbwalker
Date: 21-Feb-18




Jason, I don't think Bobby walks the string. At least, I've never seen him.

From: Draven
Date: 21-Feb-18




Dean, I don't call you names at all. Ethical distance is whatever distance that person feels he can nails it. But usually you had at least a handfull of shots at that distance and you built the confidence in a way. For the arrow thing, we are on same page. Some don't know the difference between looking at something and seeing. I never said that target archery it makes you hunter. The fact that you have a dot to shoot at is already a help in real life situation you don't have. This target vs hunting is like kata vs sparring/fighting. They are the faces of the same coin. You need an open mind to flip it all the time, otherwise is a sterile debate.

From: JRW
Date: 21-Feb-18




"Jason, I don't think Bobby walks the string. At least, I've never seen him."

Aside from Louisville in 2015, he was shooting with a crawl at Lancaster this year.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 21-Feb-18




Bobby gaps indoor. Sure he has SW at some point He hunts a bit with recurve im sure.

All the greats we read books about all carried quivers of arrows on a hunt. Just look at the stories of the running shots they took.

Shot at the largest horned deer ive seen in a decade hunting with recurve in late dec. it missed its mark. With double string kickstand bow that deers bone is hanging on the barn wall with the others. Why some guys cant let wheels go.

From: JRW
Date: 21-Feb-18

JRW's embedded Photo



A small crawl, but a crawl nonetheless.

From: RymanCat
Date: 21-Feb-18




That's very true back in the day many of us did and had made longer shots over 20 yards or 35 yards but as we get older some of us have taken shorter shots because of being able to see better or health reasons again varibles enter into picture.

We all practice longer shooting at most 3D target ranges but do we have the confidence to shoot shots like that when we do get older?

I don't think a lot do so we shoot closer and it seems to work out better.

Remember this we aren't machines and we are only as good as the day and moment we are shooting at anything if it be an animal or a target.

Multiple arrows in a target in a controlled setting means zero on wild game. All it does is look at me fooling others that we can shoot cause it looks good..

Period!

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 21-Feb-18




Eyetooth anchor is all. Tab is up to bottom nock thread. When pulled up it looks crawlish Its not. Just what setup requires at 18m. Ive watched him four hours at ourdoor range . Gapper

From: JRW
Date: 21-Feb-18




The tab may be up to the bottom of the nock thread, but unless your finger it up against the nock of the arrow, that's shooting with a crawl. That's why Barebow was the proper class for him.

From: JRW
Date: 21-Feb-18




I don't know what class he's planning on shooting in Cincinnati (if even at all), but if he holds the string that way I hope he shoots in Barebow. Otherwise he's opening himself up for a protest and a DQ.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 21-Feb-18




Hes a gapper

Just a game like checkers. Sure he knows the deal. Would guess it aint his first giddy-up?

From: JRW
Date: 21-Feb-18




No, it’s not his first at all. I see he’s registered in Traditional for NFAA Indoor Nationals. Hopefully he gets his finger against the nock so there isn’t a repeat of what happened in 2015.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 21-Feb-18




Games have rules i rekon. Most governing bodies dont even follow their own. Whise gonna protest Senior Master Trad? Like calling fish cops on Santa.

From: JRW
Date: 21-Feb-18




Who’s going to protest? Anyone with integrity. And I would hope that’s the majority of people.

From: limbwalker
Date: 21-Feb-18




Yea, stupid rules in this case.

"finger must touch nock" LOL

I'm sorry but it's one of the dumbest rules in the entire archery world.

Rules should be on equipment. Not how it's used. If someone figures out a better way to use the same gear, they deserve to win.

From: JRW
Date: 21-Feb-18




John,

I don’t think it’s any “dumber” than how WA makes us pretend we’re shooting an arrow to use our equipment for distance estimation, but I follow the rule anyway. Thinking a rule is dumb is not license to break it.

From: dean
Date: 21-Feb-18




I have four foot targets in my yard, so I don't miss them and eliminate the need to shoot groups, which just wreck arrows, but my favorite targets are milkweed pods. We need more milkweeds for the butterflies and blowing up the pods helps to spread the seeds. I would take a single milkweed pod for a target any day before a bullseye.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 21-Feb-18




Milkweed has Been my wind indicator for 40yrs. It should be a hunting rule.

Butterflies, snowflakes and spooky dust.

From: limbwalker
Date: 21-Feb-18




Jason, I agree. That's a dumb rule too. I don't think I said anywhere that if a rule is dumb, that is a license to break it. But it's still dumb. LOL

I sure hope we can get these stupid make-believe rules changed in the next few years.

From: David A.
Date: 21-Feb-18




With a proper tab size the tab material should extend slightly above the index finger...a dilemma at least under IBO rules unless you incorrectly squish the tab against the nock . Not a problem under World Archery Rules/Lancaster Rules.

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Feb-18




Smag, come on man, if you don't understand the rules, don't talk like you do. It makes things difficult for other readers. Someone might actually read what you say and believe it. Next thing you see is someone making an inch long bottom nock and bump against the bottom nock and say they aren't stringwalking cause they are against the string nock. If you don't know what you are talking about, let it go. Unless you start your draw with your finger against the nock, you are stringwalking. That is the end of the story on that one. As Jason already stated.

David, no one still really cares what someone can shoot for score with a bear super mag at 50+# or even have that being a class. Lol

From: David A.
Date: 22-Feb-18




John, you're right they don't care what I shoot with a KM. Not one bit and I understand that. But they do care about their own accuracy with their hunting bow. A lot. Much more than what you shoot with your tournament bow as well.

There are hundreds of thousands of trad. bowhunters out there. I intend to help them or at least those who want my help. For a long time a lot of people thought I was a total fraud and that my methods were non existent. Recently I posted a (short) video of my shooting form. Another video of what an Olympic coach thought. Pictures of some groups, recently. More information on how bowhunters can shoot even tough short bows accurately. This is just the beginning really of what is coming. Let's see who ends up helping the most of our fellow sportsmen/women. Now that is a worthy contest.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Feb-18




Let me add this. I started this thread for my own edification. I wanted to know roughly how many top trad. shots there are. Apparently, not very many. Arguably only a few dozen at your level, Bobby Worthington's, and others in (for example) the Lancaster trad. finals.

So this begs the question, why there aren't hundreds of top drawer trad. archers? My hypothesis is that it's not the human which is the problem, but rather the techniques which require a tremendous amount of practice and dedication. Consequently, I conclude we have a real problem when we go from paper to real world bowhunting. A huge problem. THE problem of trad. archery/bowhunting.

Now, of course, not everyone wants a solution. Many people want trad. archery to stay hard. Some want it to be difficult. But I wonder, do they really want accuracy to be so evasive while bowhunting? Wouldn't most secretly want to be as accurate with their hunting bows as you are with your tournament bow? I think they would. And w/o regard to my own methods, I have often preached the benefits of the fixed crawl and used the top trad. archers such as yourself, Bobby, Dewayne, et al. as examples to emulate.

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Feb-18




David, where's the video at? Die hard only hunters don't care what I or anyone does with a target bow. They make that point all the time with hitting sparrows off of a post 30 paces away or what not. Always trivializing everything and every target thread just like this one. Not a big deal anyway. Target archers have been dealing with that since the beginning of time. If a target archer puts meat in the freezer, then the other hunters lay down saying it wasn't big enough, look at mine! Been seeing that happen to people all the time too. Lol. A lot of the target archers are also hunters as well. It is very easy to turn great target scores into pretty good target scores with a hunting setup. I won't do anything with a bear super mag. Don't own one, never will. I do have a 62" ghost tradtech combo 45# and will be getting a 45# omega 64" longbow and will be glad to shoot some scores with that come close to hunting season if you are curious. I don't see why I couldn't hit 270s with either one of those with a hunting setup. I love my targets too much to shoot a round with my hunting Broadheads, so that won't happen. I'm glad you are tying to help people out. We need more of that, cause o see a lot of people that could use a little more help.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 22-Feb-18




[[[ Demmer: "Die hard only hunters don't care what I or anyone does with a target bow."]]]

Don't lump us all into that category John.

My shooting has always revolved around my hunting. All of my competition has been done exclusively with the bow & arrows I also happened to be using to hunt with at the time. Mounted bow quiver & all, so I guess you could say I'm a diehard hunter.

I care, and I admire.

Great shooting is just that - "Great Shooting". I love it all. :-)

Rick

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 22-Feb-18




I should have emphasized this a bit- I got into competition "solely" for the purpose of trying improve my shooting ability while hunting.

It did, and I thank God for it.

Rick

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Feb-18




Rick, we share the same basis of why we started any bit of competing. I was always competitive with a rifle a s have been since I was 10. took me several hunting seasons with a bow before I decided to try competing again. Now I'm hooked on both. :) Sorry about my previous post, was geared towards the people that usually insist on posting troll type posts on something that doesn't even interest them, but do it anyway. Lol

From: Demmer
Date: 22-Feb-18




David, how about we start a 300 thread with our hunting bow next early fall before hunting season starts to impose some good shooting form and practice before we take shots at live animals. Most everyone falls into a bad habit of 0 practice during hunting season.

From: shade mt
Date: 22-Feb-18




Good post Rick..very good. I personally can't stand it when I see quote the word "all" or "nobody" that is WAY to broad of a brush.

Truthfully it happens on both sides of the fence. bowhunters think guys that compete don't hunt, or that they just fall all to pieces when shooting at game. I suppose that could be the case with some, but certainly not "ALL" it would be really dumb and naive to think that.

But I see some of the same kind of stuff coming from guys that compete. I've seen bowhunters post terrific shooting, with bowhunting rigs, and the guys that compete will refuse to believe or acknowledge it.

Not "All" archers think like that thankfully.

Most of you know I have never competed, am I a good shot? yes, I shoot a lot, and year round. I have just for giggles scored myself fairly often, am I good enough to compete? I would be once I get used to shooting in front of a crowd yes.

Personally I like watching competition, I watch the Lancaster classics ect.. Good shooting is good shooting, I could care less if its shot at the Lancaster classic, or a local club, or somebody's back yard.

I have been misunderstood so many times in reference to this hunting vs competition stuff anymore I just smile and shake my head when I see it.

I have raised hunting dogs all my life and its the same way with dog owners...The guys with a good dog tied behind the barn all think the field trial dogs are no good for actual hunting. And the field trial guys all think the average joe with a dog isn't as good if it has no field trial titles in its pedigree.

It's all kind of silly....Me I just like to give credit where credit is due...good shooting is good shooting.

Personally I think there probably is quite a few poor shooters, a host of average shooters, and few "top level" on both sides of the fence.

From: shade mt
Date: 22-Feb-18




maybe I better add to that...I would say there are probably far more poor shooters that don't compete than do. I cant see a guy that's a poor shooter competing very long, but then again I wouldn't know.

My common sense logic tells me that guys that compete regularly would have to be for the most part good archers.

From: shade mt
Date: 22-Feb-18




I keep thinking of something else I wanted to say..

How much does experience play a role in the competition circles?

I know as a bowhunter experience plays a HUGE part in success. While there may be a few that can pick up a stickbow and become a proficient bowhunter, mostly it takes some time, and success before things really start clicking.

You guys that compete how do you find it competing?

I know some of you like Rick, and Limbwalker I get the impression you guys have been at it for years. john Demmer I've watched you shoot and I know your good, how do you find it?

Do you find more older archers with years of experience mostly in the "top level" circles or are there also younger newcomers?

just curious.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 22-Feb-18




Smag, come on man what?

Everyone thats slid a tab knows that theres gonna be a slice of leather betwix yer skinny finger and nock. I got no truck if it starts tight and slides a tad a FD. Not like shooting a bow that has marks and such in sight window.

Its just paper. Nothing dies and goes on the supper table.

From: limbwalker
Date: 22-Feb-18




Shade, my target archery journey is pretty easy to track right here in the Leatherwall. In 2003, I owned one bow and 12 arrows - a pre-ACS Adcock longbow that he made me for my 30th birthday, and a dozen Easton Legacy 2020 arrows. Hardly a target setup.

I started a thread here titled "spanked by a gapper" that told the story about the first NFAA indoor 300 round I ever shot, and I shot it with that Adcock longbow and those 2020 arrows. I got my butt handed to me by a guy easily old enough to be my father, and that started my journey into learning how to ACTUALLY shoot the right way.

I'm very grateful for a couple of things. 1) that I met Bob Wolff and he beat me as badly as he did that day, and 2) that I had an open mind and willingness to learn from him.

From: limbwalker
Date: 22-Feb-18




So, the date my target archery journey began was January 15, 2003. First day I shot a "fita" recurve was March 4, 2003. Started a thread here about each event here on those dates.

I don't consider myself any more gifted at shooting bows than many others here. Probably most others here in fact. I do however consider myself a pretty good student with an open mind, lots of curiosity and a stubborn streak that won't allow me to quit until I've figured something out.

Since 2003, I've watched a number of guys and gals who were getting started in recurve and barebow target archery go from barely being able to keep them on paper at 20 yards, to competing in world championship events. Some of them have been my own students.

I guess my point is this - if you want to get better, you can. If you are happy with how you shoot now, then great. But if you wished you were a better shot and aren't willing to approach your shooting with an open mind and determination, then you are probably stuck right where you are indefinitely.

Really, it's your choice.

From: shade mt
Date: 22-Feb-18




John...I truly believe the secret to getting better is to want to keep getting better.

I am a good shot yes, but I'm rarely ever totally satisfied. If I shoot 1 out of 3 in the 10 ring, and the rest 9's...I want two out of 3..once two out of three then 3 out of three...if 3 out of 3 in the 10 ring I'd want them closer to the center.

If you understand what I'm saying. I don't think a person ever stops learning as long as he doesn't think he knows it all.

I've been in the building trade since 14 yrs old. next year i'll have 40 yrs in it....But I'm still finding better ways, quicker ways, and more efficient ways to get it done better.

I seriously doubt many top level archers started at the top, I believe like you said it was probably a learning experience.

which was kinda what I figured. There are very few things in life that don't improve with experience.

Like I was telling you I would like to at least try it, and I am kinda expecting to have my hat handed to me at first as well...lol...I'm pretty sure stage fright will be a factor. Thanks for your reply.

From: Zildjian51
Date: 22-Feb-18




Boy, has this post ever gotten of of hand. I thought the original discussion was about how many top instinctive tournament archers can consistently shoot good scores of 275, 285 etc. You can not compare tournament archery to hunting! Sure a guy can stand all day and shoot arrows into a target at 20 yards and maybe even shoot perfect scores. but make it 23 yards and only have one shot to kill your prey, guess what unless you have a range finder, your probably going to miss or at worse, just wound the animal. Many tournament archers are hunters but you put on your hunting face not your tournament face in that situation. Dickie Roberts was a good family friend and would come to PA to hunt. at the time, he was considered one of the top archers in the U.S. but brought his hunting gear, not his tournament stuff. I'm no longer a hunter (gun or bow), now I use a Canon.

From: limbwalker
Date: 22-Feb-18




Another misinformed opinion by someone who clearly lacks target archery experience.

Most of our best barebow target archers are also our best field archery archers. Guess what. Field archery consists of shooting on unlevel courses through varied terrain at unknown distances. Sound familiar?

Why anyone would think a good target archer would struggle with a 23 yard shot just because their last tournament was shot at 20 is beyond me. It's clearly a narrative with a goal in mind.

I don't have a "hunting face" and "target face" I have one face. And the exact same skill set (hitting your target under pressure) is used in both situations.

Frankly, I have no idea why I continue to debate this topic with people who do not have experience doing both. It's really pointless. Shame on me.

From: Zildjian51
Date: 22-Feb-18




You may be right Limbwalker, maybe I am inexperienced. I just recently gotten back into archery after 37 years of not shooting. The point I was trying to make is you still can't compare indoor tournament archery to hunting. Maybe wrong choice of words about the faces. I realize you only have one face, but take football, they say that you but on your game face! In my day, field archery was shot at known distances. Now 3D is all new to me. Maybe with a 50# or more bow you can mis-judge a distance by a little and still kill your animal. I don't know.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 22-Feb-18




Good points limbwalker.

You can throw 3D into your analogy as well.

To be honest, I have "never" had a hunting shot anywhere near as difficult to position for as some of the 3D shots I have had to make.

I have never intentionally placed myself into a hunting position to make the shot more difficult.

As far as distance is concerned, I've never shot a known distance 3D competition either. I know there are some classes in some 3D competition venues where they are known distance, but the vast majority are not.

It's very easy to know the distances when you are hunting, and there's no rules to keep you from it.

Rick

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 22-Feb-18




Its Ok Zman

Anyone can toe a line and should try it. No one owns the line or holds the super snowflake spooky dust once yer on it. Everyone has an opinion and its worth sharing.

Its very hard to throw up a big number No matter where the line is located. Even when you do, then youll have some super hero say "that line was not like my line".Or yer index finger nail attachment devise was not touching yer nock so "you cant shoot green lantern". Lol

I will go shoot league tonite. Post my number. It will be the best number off the line i can muster. It may not be 295 but i will own it none the less. I will shoot anyway that puts it near center Blue Falcon.

From: Draven
Date: 22-Feb-18




Rick, that thing with the distance is one of the fallacies of traditional archery. Our brain knows it - it's the reason we survived all these damn years since we decided to get on our back limbs.

From: shade mt
Date: 22-Feb-18




Lol..I'd have a pretty hard time believing a guy that is good at a 20 yd indoor range wouldn't be pretty decent at 3D or field as well.

I agree hunting and target archery isn't the same, I've said that myself many times. I think what the problem is way to often we make that statement without going any further or explaining what we meant.

Its not the same no, not even close really .Mainly because your not shooting at a paper target, or foam target, but a live animal that moves where it wants, stops were it wants, and has the ability to spook and never give you a shot. Plus making a bad shot on paper is a bad shot that may cost you a win. But a bad shot on game can mean wounding. So no its not the same but I'm sure there are plenty of target archers that adjust to a hunting scenario quite well. And maybe some that don't? I don't know but I think such generalized statements really muddy up the waters.

I'd be willing to bet many target archers were hunters before entering the competition circles...again generalized statements like "all" or "nobody" often are simply not true.

From: JRW
Date: 22-Feb-18




"2) that I had an open mind and willingness to learn from him."

In my opinion, it all starts there. Without an open mind and a willingness to change improvement is pretty much impossible. To quote James McDonald, "If you keep doing what you've always done you'll keep getting what you've always gotten." Now, James wasn't talking about archery, but it still applies.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Feb-18




John, I'm pretty sure you would be able to shoot 270s or even higher with a 64" hunting bow, but it's another ball game when you drop down to 52" or 54" bow due to finger pinch and possibly stacking.

As far as encouraging practicing during hunting season, I'm certainly in favor of practice, but my methods reduce the necessity for practice by a lot as long as one maintains sufficient bow strength in holding steady.

I gave a free clinic last year, but what has changed since then is I've made a big improvement in two areas, two new triggering methods and very importantly, increasing the bow mass of my short hunting bows so they are more comparable to the bow mass of tournament bows. The problem that remains is holding dead steady and that can never be totally solved, although proper form and a few other things can help a lot.

I'll post the video of my shooting form tomorrow.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Feb-18




JRW, I certainly echo those sentiments. Keep an open mind, everyone. "If you keep doing what you've always done you'll keep getting what you've always gotten."

From: David A.
Date: 22-Feb-18




"I've made a big improvement in two areas...blah blah...almost forgot, a new aiming method that is even more nifty than the original. Glad I didn't publish sooner like everyone was demanding.

From: limbwalker
Date: 22-Feb-18




"To be honest, I have "never" had a hunting shot anywhere near as difficult to position for as some of the 3D shots I have had to make..."

Oh, well I've had many hunting shots that were much tougher than any field or 3D shots I've taken. But guess what? I passed on those hunting shots.

See, that is one thing that is different about target vs. hunting shots. In hunting, you get to pass if you don't like the shot or feel ready. Not so in target. You gotta shoot. ;)

From: David A.
Date: 22-Feb-18




John, I remember one tournament where I was shooting trad. class and the target was ridiculously far and difficult for the stakes we were shooting at. It was a pretty big tournament and people were stacked up behind us. I was fuming at the absurdity of the situation as my mantra during this period was the responsibility of trad. archers to hunt close rather than flinging arrows at animals from irresponsible distances.

Right then and there, I decided to walk away from convention. Shooting last. I stalked up to that target until it was reasonable trad. bow distance and took my shot, arrow next to the 12 ring. People were shouting at me "you can't do that!" Haha.

Of course, that disqualified me, and while this surely may seem to be a trivial incident, it wasn't in retrospect. Rejecting authority was perhaps the first step in a long journey of mind shifts.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 22-Feb-18




[[[ limbwalker: "I've had many hunting shots that were much tougher than any field or 3D shots I've taken. But guess what? I passed on those hunting shots." ]]]

Exactly John. Reposition for the shot if you can, or pass on it.

Rick

From: David A.
Date: 22-Feb-18




Ok, there's a video of STAR Method shot from behind you can find here:

https://tinyurl.com/ybz9tqh9

It shows form, but not any significant details of the Methods, which I choose not to reveal at this time. Thanks to Rick Barbee for the slo' motion.

From: limbwalker
Date: 22-Feb-18




Nice to see my old friend Alexander. He's a great guy and a great coach. I miss seeing him.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Feb-18




I think he was shocked esp. because I was shooting a 54" hunting bow and grouping tight. He was very complimentary and asked how old I was. When I asked why he said because if you were younger I would make you into the world champion....really, those are his exact words. A little late, because I'm 69...oh well let's see if I can still have an impact on archery...I didn't do all this work to be second best as far as advancing trad. archery.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Feb-18




Nice compliment, but I don't understand it because a 12 yr. kid can have perfect form. Frankly, I don't see a talent issue and I want to make that clear. Never blame yourself for poor shooting, invariably it is your technique or equipment. Certainly don't under estimate the role of equipment. A lot of guys are shooting heavy draw wts. and low mass bows. People brag on how light their bows are. Not me, when I switched to high mass bows recently my accuracy increased over night. Nothing to do with practice dedication or talent.

From: David A.
Date: 22-Feb-18




The more mass bow (within reason), the closer you can become to a shooting machine. After all the main thing a shooting machine has going for it is that it is steadier than you. Proper form helps the human become steadier, but it is mass that can really steady your shot not just in the moment before release while your are aiming, but during release and a split second after release while the arrow is still on the moving string. This steadiness can make you look better than you were with a light mass bow. It reduces your variability before, during, and after the shot.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 22-Feb-18

HedgeHunter's embedded Photo



Went and shot this evening. Grabbed a bow off the rack and some hunt arrows. Was sure I could drop a 200. Was tough round!

From: zetabow
Date: 23-Feb-18




David there is nothing stopping you from becoming world champion, If Ben Rogers can go toe to toe with WA's Best Barebows at his Age you have no excuse.

I'm going to World Masters in Switzerland this Summer (50+) Will shoot WA Field round, 18m and 25m Indoors and Target all in one tourney.

Still waiting on your email :-)

From: David A.
Date: 23-Feb-18




Well, the Coach was probably just impressed because he isn't used to anyone shooting a recurve hunting bow at the accuracy levels he expects...I don't see why proper form is such a big deal.

When I was a pole vaulter many years ago, I developed the mindset to never let any negativity get a foothold in my subconscious. You just refuse any of that from getting a hold on you and ya' it can come across as being overly confident.

Now, the big competition is to live as full and helpful life as possible. For many that might include competitive archery, of course it can be a blast and having fun is a worthy thing as many people in this world are sad and depressed.

Please send me your email in a PM, I got side tracked by the January late hunt here.

From: David A.
Date: 23-Feb-18




Back a bit more to the topic, from what I gather given the handful of consistent tournament champions we have in the USA, it seems like the number of really top level shots is not in the hundreds, but perhaps just dozen or so.

Approaching this logically, if "you" wanted to be in that group, I would suggest emulating the very best. From their form to their equipment. Emulating success is one of the few valid shortcuts. From what I've seen on the YT Lancaster and IBO trad championships, I believe John Demmer is probably the guy I would say has the best form. I also agree with his philosophy of using smaller points/shafts even though he was beaten by Rich Barker who used big shafts. Forget instinctive shooting, you really have to focus on the fixed crawl unless perhaps you are one in a million talent wise. I would never rule out the exceptional individual.

Some of the STAR methods would be legal, others wouldn't be. Not a problem in bowhunting and various open classes. All of this will be worked out in the future.

From: limbwalker
Date: 23-Feb-18




David, there ain't much room at the top of any sport. How many quarterbacks are there in the U.S. compared to elite NFL quarterbacks. The ratio in every sport is usually about the same.

Your advice to emulate the best is spot-on however, and that is precisely what helped me land a spot on the Olympic team. I watched and emulated what Vic and Butch were doing, as they were the only two world class archers we had in the U.S. at that time. I didn't see any reason to pay attention to what anyone else was doing.

As for your STAR method, you'd better hurry up. People haven't been known to live forever and I'm not sure the younger crowd will care. Just sayin'

From: David A.
Date: 24-Feb-18




I think it's very unfortunate the younger crowd in particular is stuck with rules imposed imposed by a handful of people who really wanted trad. bows to mean as simple as possible and shot instinctively. They had to give into the fixed crawl for the most part, but probably weren't happy with any aiming methods.

It is just mind boggling to me that we can have fancy Border and CD risers with interchangeable limbs and such, but a simple Merrill sight or similar is illegal? Even a mark on your riser or string that could be used for aiming is deemed illegal. Ditto for range finding with part of bow, so now people pretend to draw but use it anyone. Oh, but Zeiss binoculars are fine. It's absurd in my view. Sure sights and such can be used in less popular classes, but the result is very little of what makes trad.bows more accurate ends up be used by trad. bowhunters.

I'd like to see a logical rule and maybe Lancaster might be interested where you take their ring where this ring has to slide over the bow eliminating protruding stabilizers and such. And then just use whatever aiming method you want that is simple enough to fit thru the ring and whatever release method you want as long as it's not mechanical.

This would allow very simple but not obtrusive sights such as were popular in the "Golden Age of Archery"/the 60's and early 70's. IMO, this would very quickly become as popular if not more popular than barebow.

Instead of a dozen or so very accurate shots trad. recurve shots we would have hundreds or more, and in bowhunting, tens of thousands of more accurate bowhunters because all of this eventually filters down into how they shoot.

From: David A.
Date: 24-Feb-18




Should read: "pretend to draw but use it ANYWAY" (referring to part of the bow being used as a rangefinder).

From: David A.
Date: 24-Feb-18




Re: "tens of thousands of more accurate bowhunters because all of this eventually filters down into how they shoot." One might argue sights were never that popular in the 60's and 70's, but they certainly more popular than today when no one is hardly making them.

Plus, they were a lot more common in tournaments. I shot on the University of Texas archery club in the 1960s and everyone used them with many using them for bowhunting. Today, almost extinct for recurves except for Olympic bows.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 24-Feb-18




"Top Level" among competitive archers is always going to be a small number, and not even remotely representative of the every day archer & bowhunter.

Maybe if you (you as in the collective) were to define what an "average" archer is, then you might be able to move from there to determine "Top Level" among the masses.

I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

Rick

From: Draven
Date: 24-Feb-18




I remember Viper had a quite good info regarding that question Rick.

"These are the older NFAA barebow classifications (which included "bowhunter" as there wasn't a distinction back then). There was no real question about where you stood."

Archer 0 –189 (D – class) Bowman 190 – 209 (C – class) Expert B 210 – 249 (B – class) Expert A 250 – 279 (A – class) Expert AA 280 – 300 (AA – class)

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 24-Feb-18




Draven, I've seen that, agree with, and apply it.

The problem is - getting the "masses" to accept it as the written standard in archery, and use it to achieve goals they set for themselves.

Right now (and most know this as well as I do) - the vast majority do not want to mirror themselves by any standard other than their own, which more often than not leads to the "Aw, that's good enough" attitude.

Rick

From: Draven
Date: 24-Feb-18




Rick, my experience says that "It's good enough" attitude is most of the time a result of the lack of a "Scale" to measure. When you don't know there is a standard, you are having that "sufficient" attitude. Archers, no matter what kind, are 99.999% competitive people. They will try to see where they are even if they will not say it. Your 9" plate was a good proof of that. No matter how some trashed it, some actually did the test to see where they are standing.

From: Draven
Date: 24-Feb-18




Use a scale, post it everywhere and in time the archers will use it. Maybe not all, but a lot more than we are thinking.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 24-Feb-18




LOL BroDraven - I refer you to the "self proficiency" topics as of late. You saw the debacle those created.

What I took away from those discussions is this:

(A) Some folks want to improve, and don't mind holding themselves to "self imposed" standards where hunting accuracy is concerned.

(B) Others pray you get struck by lightning, just for the mere mention of such a thing.

Rick

From: Draven
Date: 24-Feb-18




Is the reason why I think Death is a good thing.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 24-Feb-18




As a side note:

I've been struck by lightning 3 times in my life. Not directly, but close enough to be burned, and hurt pretty bad.

Maybe I should learn to keep my opinions to myself. LOL X 100000 !

Rick

From: heydeerman Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 24-Feb-18




I didn’t read the whole thread but I will today since it’s raining. But in my back yard I’m the best archer there is. Nobody can outshoot me, nobody.

From: David A.
Date: 24-Feb-18




I'm all for expert backyard shooter who really can shoot great. But a very high percentage of these are guys are shooting instinctively with bad form because a few authors and a lot of media has brain washed them into thinking this is what trad archery is.

Of course most aren't as good as they would like to think. I suspect many eventually give up and take up compounds or the Xbow.

I'll take a guess that over half of all compound and x bow bowhunters use this equipment precisely because they can't be accurate with trad bows. Think about the enormity of the problem...and yet the rule makers smugly think they are preserving trad archery by doing almost everything they can to make trad bows difficult to shoot well from ruling against elevate risers all the way up to the sight issue so now hardly anyone shoots with a sight these days.

From: David A.
Date: 24-Feb-18




"shooting instinctively with bad form because a few authors and a lot of media has brain washed them into thinking this is what trad archery is." E.g. stick your butt out and snap shoot. This is one reason why I compliment the fixed crawl archers. A very good alternative. I'm glad they are getting a lot of publicity these days.

From: David A.
Date: 24-Feb-18




Or I should say, MORE publicity. We still don't see than many fixed crawl bowhunters.

Why? I'll tell you: 1) still not enough publicity 2) confusion as to what the fixed crawl method is all about 3) for bowhunting it's louder due to the lower hand placement on the string 4) works best with tunable/adjustable limb bows which are relatively uncommon and 5) more expensive 6) doesn't work as well with shorter bows bowhunters often prefer.

Fortunately, there are forthcoming solutions to most of these...Many solutions in fact.

From: David A.
Date: 24-Feb-18

David A.'s embedded Photo



The uneven limb torque issue is even more serious with typical hunting bows esp. short bows because the lower hand placement overly torques the lower limb. If the bow doesn't have tunable limbs, you can't do anything about that unless you retiller the bow and that is a bit of a hit and miss proposition. And you still have the problem with the bow being louder, much louder. It really isn't the ultimate method although nevertheless, it can work quite well.

Also, a seeming minor issue is that of (for some) string:nose abrasion...An irritant for tournament archers and a real issue for bowhunters who want to use a facemask not to mention often a hat brim issue...fortunately, all is solvable as well...

From: David A.
Date: 24-Feb-18




Apologies for being such a smarty pants. I went after problems big time like killing roaches in a house or mice in a cabin...kill 'em all...

From: David A.
Date: 24-Feb-18

David A.'s embedded Photo



"You talking about me?!" --- always one or two to finish off!

From: David A.
Date: 24-Feb-18




or more...

From: Draven
Date: 24-Feb-18




I hope to not live in a world where bleeding nose is the sign of an archer.

From: limbwalker
Date: 24-Feb-18




David, add me to the list of people who are growing weary of hearing about all your solutions.

This is archery man. The top competitors and coaches ROUTINELY share information in this sport, for the good of the sport and because we like helping people succeed. Nobody is going to get rich "selling" archery knowledge. Nobody. Not even KiSik Lee who is unquestionably the highest profile, best self-promoted coach in the world.

So either spill it or just knock it off already.

It's interesting you brought in Alexander Kirillov - a man I have known for 15 years and respect - and then "used" him to again promote your STAR method. What's interesting about it is that Alexander has trained countless world class archers over his career, and he is one of the most open and generous coaches you will ever meet.

I'm not saying your method doesn't have merit, but dangling unseen carrots in front of the leatherwall members for years now, is just simply ridiculous. And frankly it makes you look bad. At this point, I would never pay you to learn what you know because I think you have been playing games for too long. I don't respect coaches who do that.

From: JParanee
Date: 24-Feb-18




This place is great .....wow

From: Demmer
Date: 24-Feb-18




Hey Joe. Lol

From: JParanee
Date: 24-Feb-18




Hi Johnny ...shoot Um up tomorrow buddy :)

From: zetabow
Date: 25-Feb-18




David my setup is no louder than my other Recurves shot 3 Under and I dont need tape on my nose.

Stringwalking Rigs can be quiet enough for Hunting, Ty Pelfry at the start of his DVD "Modern Traditional" shows a Deer he took at 44y.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 25-Feb-18

HedgeHunter's embedded Photo



Indoor Top level Wood & Wood?

From: Draven
Date: 25-Feb-18




In the high 250/300 in a 300 NFAA round. I think very few are above 260/300 - Zetabow may confirm.

From: David A.
Date: 25-Feb-18




John,

Pointing out some of the problems in itself should be helpful. You don't have to rely on me. Invent your own solutions. Step 1 is identify problems. How many bowhunters might be helped by at least going in known that the fixed crawl is going to be somewhat louder as well as potential throwing them off if they like to shoot with some types off facemarks and even hat brim interference and so forth. Some people don't even know they might have to wear a bandage on their nose (not all do).

I still think the fixed crawl is one of the better methods out there (and I have been complimentary of it).

Secondly, you are seriously mistaken if you think I want or need any publicity to sell something. Or that I even want to sell something. I don't. I'd rather not enter the archery business because it's a hobby for me. Yet, I'm going to do it out of a sense of duty and given all the stuff I invented, it has to be monetized, but again I dread doing this because I don't need it and it will be a huge headache. Also, if you think there is no progress that this is going on forever, you're wrong. Already have manufactured hundreds of releases, for example.

Thirdly, re: Alexander, he had no suggestions for my form improvement, he was happy with everything he saw even though I have never had any coaching. So I didn't learn anything although I has happy to be given a good bill of health, as it were. If anything he learned from me because he saw something he had never seen before in archery. All coaches give some freebies, but he does charge for instruction. I don't know why you wish to put a negative spin on our meeting or the testimonial he wanted to make. Stop this and pick something else to criticize me for.

As far as free information, I gave a free clinic last year and I think you did know about it, right? You could have come. You could also have contacted me at any time and said you would like to meet me in person and learn some the methods. I've given hundreds of lessons and have never charged a dime. You have no excuse for criticizing me for not helping people.

This forum is not the place to spill my guts on a quarter of a century of research. I've also shared freely in person with countless people on the LW including some right here in this thread as a matter of fact.

Lastly, I've contributed suggestions to many other topics in many posts over the years to a wide variety of topics from deer hunting to gear suggestions, blah blah.

From: David A.
Date: 25-Feb-18

David A.'s embedded Photo



Re: "some types off facemarks" should read "facemasks". Facemasks might reduce nose string abrasion, a positive. OTOH, the fixed crawl method might not be a good choice if the facemask cause string interference. A small thing, right? No necessarily, it could be a perfect example of Murph's law costing you a nice buck or even causing you to choose another method where the string is not so close to the face.

For example, I call deer in. With my own voice. Often I hunt from the ground and pull in bucks to 15 yds. or so. They come in on full alert and they are going to look right in my direction as often as not. To be successful, I need to be in full leafy camo including a face mask. If the string interferes with the face mask or even the brim of my camo hat, it is an issue.

I'm just pointing out above some of the problems. All methods have problems. This is a very interesting thing to me. I love solving problems, esp. problems of technique. I love knocking 'em out, hehe. It's been quite a struggle to find solutions that don't invariably have drawbacks. Not just in releases and so forth, but in everything from camo gear to hunting techniques. The challenge is a real pleasure and even so is the pain of failure in a way...

From: David A.
Date: 25-Feb-18




I put that quote up even though though my own work is not immune. I've had a constant love hate relationship with Murphy's Law. In a way, he provides a great if not inevitable service.

From: David A.
Date: 25-Feb-18




Zeta, probably half the guys using string walking will not have nose abrasion issues. Depends on nose and facial configuration. Re: string noise, it can be reduced esp. with tunable bows. Depends in part on how far down the string your crawl is as well as how jumpy the deer are. My releases will quiet the fixed crawl. I'm waiting a ruling from World Archery, as the rules read, they should be legal.

Using heavy arrows, etc. can also help. But for jumpy deer such as in Texas and actually many states, any noise increase can be a concern. Some people are simply unaware of this because they haven't had a lot of hunting experience. Ya' one can aim low, etc. I'll say this, I'll chose accuracy even at the price of some noise increase if I have to.

From: David A.
Date: 25-Feb-18




I'm going to take down public view to the link of my shooting form and the testimonials tomorrow or very soon. Maybe another time or place. For the fixed crawl I'd suggest studying Dewayne Martin, Bobby Worthington, John Demmer and Rich Barker.

https://youtu.be/XOmcjDlGxtA

Jimmy Blackmon also has perfect or nearly perfect form and many videos (free). Joel Turner as well although his course is $200. The information is out there...I don't know why we don't have hundreds of top shots...I do blame a lot of that on the widespread influence of instinctive/snap shooting by a few notables. I reject talent factor explanations, although sure, some talent is necessary. Vastly over rated. Hard work/Resolve...

From: limbwalker
Date: 25-Feb-18




David, Alexander was being kind. And suggesting he learned from you... wow. You really have no idea how much that man has seen and what he knows.

Tell you what, you coach as many archers to the world championships as I have, and I'll listen to what you have to say. Shouldn't be hard as I'm a part-time amateur coach who runs clubs in tiny little towns with a very small pool of archers to train.

I'm sorry, but your self promoting is just insulting to the world class coaches who are out there.

Reminds me of someone else who routinely posts here.

From: David A.
Date: 25-Feb-18




Alexander was great and although he is one of the most experienced coaches in the world to his credit he had an open mind. He told me he truly was impressed and pledged confidentiality. He even said I might be able to coach potential Olympians if they had an open mind although I said it's really for bowhunters. He and I also became friends. Full Stop. So, please stop interjecting negativity into our relationship. You really don't know me. I'm not in competition with you…I believe in cooperation vs. zero sum.

Above, I was primarily delighting in the fun of solving archery problems and knocking them dead out as a topic. My discussion of some of the problems of the fixed crawl method was an example. I was pretty clear I still recommend the thatl method and it's proponents. Again, it is not a zero sum game, that is old thinking. You never know who might help you or who might be your friend.

If you want an enemy, it is Mr. Murphy...and even he can be a friend in disguise.

From: David A.
Date: 25-Feb-18




Well, above is accurate but I doubt he considers me a friend, we just got along great. And it's been a long time now. I supposed to give him a copy of my book someday. I keep promises.

From: JRW
Date: 26-Feb-18




Limbwalker,

This is why a lot of people refuse to get involved with him and respond to his PMs and such. He's been playing this game for many years now. Best to just ignore it altogether.

From: limbwalker
Date: 26-Feb-18




I am beginning to see that Jason. He reminds me of another self-promoter that we often see here, as well as a few others we don't see here anymore because they were finally called to task.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Feb-18




One of the best and most knowledgeable coaches on the planet testified otherwise and you are basically insulting his testimony. This is hilarious/sad - both.

JRW, I PMed you about a tournament disqualification that pertains to a rule issue I'm interested in, nothing more or less. I don't carry grudges from one thread to another or from outside the thread. I don't know you and vice versa. I'm friendly to all, even those who are negative. More fun to debate technique than to create personal angst. We are only here for a short while, really.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Feb-18




John, just yesterday I offered to teach you the methods for free one on one...free hunt, too. How can I be more generous?

From: limbwalker
Date: 26-Feb-18




I heard what Alexander said. Keep in mind I've known the man both much longer, and much better than you. ;) He was being kind.

I've never said your method does not have merit. However your continual self-promotion and "secrecy" is what's insulting to the many experienced and qualified coaches who have dedicated a lifetime to spreading knowledge in this sport - whether paid or unpaid.

Time to get over yourself David.

Having said that, I'm going to take Jason's advice. Good day.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Feb-18




So, the problem is we really don't have many top level barebow archers and by extension that many accurate bowhunters. Accuracy or lack of it is to a large degree an information problem not a talent problem, IMO. It is also a problem of people not getting the information even when it's offered. Some people just want it spoon fed in a post or thread. Get off your butts and take action if you are stuck in a rut or just want to learn more. School is never out even for the pros. One thing is for sure if you keep doing what you've been doing, you're pretty sure to keep getting the same results.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Feb-18




John he was unambiguous in his testimony. If he saw any problems in my form I was paying him to tell me what they were because I want valid criticism. He video taped me from multiple angles and had not one single complaint. It's obvious from his testimony he was impressed and he says precisely why in his specific remarks.

I'm sure all the critics would have wanted an Olympic coach to tear me apart and delegitimize my method(s). The exact reverse occurred, sorry to disappoint them. You also surely saw Tad Ladd's testimony and trust me I have many more.

I've helped a lot of people already on this site and have offered help and personal instruction for free to countless others here including some of my critics. Your head is in the sand and you're ticked off because I won't spoon feed you the methods in posts. Sorry, it doesn't work that way and besides there are so many techniques, it would be chaos. I offered to teach you the methods in person for free, I've gone far enough with this and you're wasting my time now. Soon I'm going way around the world to take a course of instruction. I value information myself and am willing to do almost whatever it takes to improve. You're not improving if you think you know it all, just my opinion.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Feb-18

David A.'s embedded Photo



From: Rick Barbee
Date: 26-Feb-18




Well, I'm out of this one.

It's been interesting, but has degraded to insults (seems to be the trend around here).

I suck at shooting, so it's not like I had much to contribute anyway.

Rick

From: David A.
Date: 26-Feb-18




I'm out too, Rick. Offered to give personal instruction for free and still get criticized for not teaching it. A bit much.

From: Demmer
Date: 26-Feb-18




Not many top level barebow? I guess your standards of top level are different than mine. If top level is elite? Then yeah, we don't, but no one contry does in that sense. Barebow will have and always will have a bigger discrepancy amungst scoring. It is the nature of the equipment. So much more mentally envolved in making a perfect shot. That's always going to be the case. We do have what I consider a good amount of top level barebow shooters. I'll use world archery barebow and target standards for example. On legue nights 535+ is top level in my book. We have quite a few of those. Only scores I see posted online for other countries are the Italians(I wish more would post up). They too have many that can post 535+ in legues. They have a good depth in the top level. Elite 550+, they are like us. Only a couple can do it. The difference for me shooting 560+ and 535- isn't much at all in barebow. When I was shooting compound, a five point variance would be the equivalent of a great round and a so so round. Not much really.

From: limbwalker
Date: 26-Feb-18




Rick, not insulting anyone - rather holding them accountable.

And I won't even bother to do that anymore.

John, you're spot-on of course regarding the difference in barebow and other disciplines. The same guy who shoots a 540 one day can just as easily shoot a 505 the next. The nature of the beast.

One reason barebow is so demanding is the relative lack of consistency compared to recurve or especially compound.

I find recurve the easiest mentally but the hardest physically. I put barebow and compound right there together mentally, but for very different and almost opposite reasons.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Feb-18




John D., ya' I meant elite, where it seems many of the same names are consistently at the finals vs. a turn over. I could be wrong and I wanted to know. At the second tier level I'd be curious as to how many nationwide and world wide. For elite what is your guess worldwide?

John M., I offered to teach you all for free, end of story. Saying you're holding me accountable is twilight zone, makes no sense in lieu of my sincere offer.

From: Demmer
Date: 26-Feb-18




David, 550+ that put it into leagues in the states, probably single digits. My best guess around the world 30-40. Those that do it at their respective championship, probably 5-8 every year. We had two that did it so far at USA indoor Nationals this year. We do have one more weekend, so it could go up.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Feb-18




Thanks and hope you have a blast this year.

From: limbwalker
Date: 26-Feb-18




David, you're offering to teach me. LOL What an offer. For free even. Wow.

I'm holding you accountable for - as the saying goes - putting up or shutting up. This is not a public forum for you to advertise for yourself. I certainly hope you are a sponsor here. If not, they should ban you.

You may not realize the coaching experience I have, but yet I don't come here and advertise my expertise and make outrageous claims that I cannot prove.

Good grief man. Listen to your friends. I know one of whom has already told you to mute it.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Feb-18




Good job on creating negativity when I extended my hand in friendship and a willingness to share.

From: limbwalker
Date: 26-Feb-18




When guys like John Demmer are selfishly sharing their expertise - true, demonstrable expertise - that should tell you all you need to know.

You can act like the victim now and accuse me of "creating negativity" all you want, but enough is enough.

Put up or shut up, simple as that.

The fine folks of the Leatherwall are no huckleberries. They have had enough.

From: David A.
Date: 27-Feb-18




Well, have a talk with Charlie Rehor Bowsite/Leatherwall...it might be enlightening...

From: David A.
Date: 27-Feb-18




Beside LW/Bowsiters who help run these sites, I have LWers in New Zealand (coming soon to Nelson and Wanaka!), Canada, Mexico, Australia, and yes even your home state of Texas. Have several testimonials from the Lone Star State, including UT archery team...!

I'm a native Texan...the STAR releases are manufactured in Texas, btw...got people all over the world using them, never charged a dime. Wanna see a Texas testimonial? I've got so many testimonials I hope I can find it, lemme know and I'll put it if I can...

From: David A.
Date: 27-Feb-18




Now imagine this for outrageousness, several of the supposedly nonexistent STAR releases will undergo a little migration from Gun Barrel City, Texas all the way to the Southern Alps of New Zealand on precisely March 12 with a little trip to the final destination in a Gabri G2 helicopter shortly thereafter to the new proud owner, and all free of charge!

Now you might say b.s.! The Kiwis are more optimistic and prefer "sweet as!"

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 27-Feb-18




Sounds interesting. Do tell?

From: limbwalker
Date: 27-Feb-18




Oh lawd HedgeHunter, please don't encourage him.

This thread was about top level shooters. Maybe we should get back on topic.

From: unhinged
Date: 27-Feb-18




"I have developed a system for shooting trad. bows almost as accurately as a compound up to 30 or 35 yds. It will be published in 2009. It solves EVERY problem that has stumped trad. bowhunters for the last 20,000 yrs. There really is no reason to shoot a compound anymore unless you want to shoot past 35 yds.

And no, it's not a rehash of instinctive, gap, split vision, apache style, etc. etc. methods we all know and have read about/used. It's new & the biggest advance in shooting traditional in the last 20,000 yrs. It is not covered in any book or video I know of.

OK, I guess I'm a little impartial....lol. Try and try, it was really very hard to do invent this...

My question is...what are the odds you would give for this to be real?

This was Dave first post in Jan 08, if its taken this long I'll stay with my tusted KISS method."

From: David A.
Date: 27-Feb-18




Unhinged, here's a testimonial from a Leatherwaller shortly after that post. I've been helping people on the LW w/o fanfare for free for many years:

hootowl - Thanks David!! This stuff is great,Just came up from the basement from shooting a few with these techniques although a little awkward at first but started settling in and was shooting good tight groups( smacking arrows!!) going to go slow with it until it feels natural no futher than 10 yards and get good control before moving back. I really like your system and I think it will pull me out of the taget panic! switching to three under took a little time but it natural now and that itself improved my shooting some what and now adding these others to it should get me back in the game!! David, Thank you for all the time you have spent with me doing this I'm very greatful and i'll keep you posted with my progress and let me know when your done with your book I would like a copy and will recomend it to everyone who would like to improve there shooting!! Thanks and GOD BLESS, Hoot

Yes, I'm was overly optimistic about when my book would be ready, but I kept inventing things and the project kept going and going. Today, the STAR Method consists of more methods than in all of the books and dvs on trad. archery shooting technique and John M. and my other critics here thinks I have nothing! This is what sets me off, this certainty when in fact I have been quietly helping people not just here on the LW but from many countries and never charged a dime. I don't have a problem in ponying up and being a sponsor on the LW, but so far I've been helping people for years and years and it's all been free. Heck even Charlie who does the advertising for the LW is using the method and has offered to do a video testimonial. Hope it's ok to say that, Charlie.

The conversion rate of those who learn the method and switch to one or more of the techniques is seemingly nearly 100%. The only people who don't switch so far are already expert shots and are happy with their shooting as it is. But that level of conversion is absolutely unheard of.

I'm wasting my time here revealing some of these facts just to prove a handful of people who think it's still nothing. Yes, I might be a procrastinator, but it took extreme patience and work to invent new things in this old sport, and I'm sure that's a big reason why teachers such as John M and other "experts" here are so sure it just can't be possible. Impossible? - just a word.

From: David A.
Date: 27-Feb-18




And John M., no fakir goes into a world renown Olympic coach with a 54" hunting bow and walks out with a video recommendation and testimony...kindness or not.

From: unhinged
Date: 27-Feb-18




Whatever. Sounds like you have been milking it for almost 10yrs.

From: limbwalker
Date: 27-Feb-18




Yup.

And David, you underestimate what a kind man Alexander is. I know him. You have met him. There is a difference but it won't change the way you use it to promote yourself.

Shameless self-promoters have never impressed me. Quite the contrary in fact.

I suppose now that David has latched on to this thread in his next effort to self promote, it's as good as dead.

I'm out on this one. It was a good discussion.

From: SteveBNY
Date: 27-Feb-18




If the time devoted to telling us for 9 years something great was coming had been spent instead on working to publish it, we would be in the 3rd edition/revision at least.

From: David A.
Date: 27-Feb-18




John M., It seems you want to pit him vs. me for some reason. Good grief. Or my knowledge vs. yours. C'mon man, I had a happy testimonial and you're dragging this down...

I'm sure you do know a LOT as a coach. However, consider this advice. I interviewed on of the best technical guitarists to ever live, Paco de Lucia, and when I asked him about new knowledge and learning he looked me right in the eye and said emphatically he would go the width of Spain to learn a single new chord from an unknown guitarist.

Steve, I surely am one of the worst writers ever. Really, I'm just a part time teacher and experimenter, it seems by my Resume. lol.

Then again Homer Kelly took 25 yrs. to write a book that changed golf instruction forever (but try to read it - gawd!)...

From: David A.
Date: 27-Feb-18




Hedge, just have a fellow friend archer on the S. Island and I fly copters.

From: The Whittler
Date: 27-Feb-18




I will say David you do like to fish. It's all about the attention.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 27-Feb-18




Nice, You put me up high with a Warf in S Island Elk country!

From: David A.
Date: 27-Feb-18




Ever see the old TV show, The Fugitive? Very popular and there were several movie spinoffs. Dr. Richard Kimble (David Jansen) was unjustly convicted of a crime he was innocent of...Convict Kimble escaped and went around doing good here and there while THE LAW kept trying to catch him...until the very end THE LAW was so cocksure he was guilty...

From: David A.
Date: 27-Feb-18




Do you mean Paul Brunner? Last time I met Paul down there was about 7 yrs. ago. He rarely comes on the LW, tired of all the negativity and fighting, I think.

Anyway, I fly, but it's not my bird. Glad to meet any LWers on the S. Island March 15 -25.

From: David A.
Date: 27-Feb-18




Alan, my point is, unfairness of any type esp. social, peer, etc. conviction is a strong emotion and motivator. We have all experienced this.

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 28-Feb-18




Im not interested in D Alford or the STAR system I usually just ignore it

BUT

this thread was from 3/17' he didnt TTT it someone else did a year later.I dont blame him for standing up for himself.

Seems to be alot of old posts being TTT'd lately to renew old arguments I guess someone is bored.

From: limbwalker
Date: 28-Feb-18




If he started the thread to once again promote his teaching, then IMO he gets what he deserves. If he started it to discuss top level archers and then led it into an advertisement for his teaching, then he also gets what he deserves IMO.

If the discussion had remained on course, I doubt anyone would have an issue.

Does anyone know if David is a sponsor here? I've known quite a few folks over the past 18 years who have been kicked off or shouted down for promoting their products here without becoming a sponsor.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 28-Feb-18




He did not.

From: JRW
Date: 28-Feb-18




This thread was brought to the top on January 19th with the below post that had to do with nothing but the original topic. Unfortunately as far too many such topics here do, it was derailed by one man's incessant need for attention.

. . .

"I saw the list posted by jimmy of people who can shoot over 275. Looks pretty small. Do you really think that's all that can shoot 275? What do you other target shooters think? Jrw demmer do you think there are more shooters out there that shoot 275? Looking at the previous years nationals for USA archery and nfaa I think so.""

From: David A.
Date: 28-Feb-18




John M., I'm not a sponsor here as I'm not selling anything and frankly I may never sell anything being the procrastinator I am, the financial risks, and tiny marketplace. Anyone that has some spare money to invest, take Warren Buffets advice and invest in quality stocks and be patient.

If i was really interested in making $$$ I wouldn't be standing up for myself and engaging in debates. I happen to like debates on line when I'm bored (aren't we all now that hunting season is over?) but it is not a wise business strategy.

Right now, today, I can put up quite a few video testimonials from Leatherwallers I've helped or email testimonials. How many could you put up today from people on this site?

If I was on the other side of this, I wouldn't be attacking a guy because he claims to have some cool archery methods. I would either be curious or ignore it. How can something that doesn't exist as far as you are concerned impinge upon your life in any way? It can't.

At any rate, all this yap yap taping is virtually about nothing. NOTHING. The average person outside of the sport would think we are all nuts for attacking OURSELVES, our co-enthusiats...!

From: David A.
Date: 28-Feb-18




"yap yap YAPING" - really.

From: David A.
Date: 28-Feb-18




You can have the last words...will they be positive or negative? Or explain your angst as you wish. Also, I want to say this, I'm sure you have been a good coach over the years. Good luck going forward.

I also wish to say an apology in a way to other LWers who see any argument as making both sides guilty. I think most of us will counterpunch when attacked, however.

I guess turkey season can't start soon enough...

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 14-Mar-18




Bobby W drops a bomb at Tenn State a few weeks ago. That was not good enough for some (shoot line was not big enough I guess is how I read it).

So, I look at Trad scores at Cinci. Bobby follows it up with Nation top NFAA tournament high scores. Is this accurate?

Congrats BW. That's some gud shooting

MAPA KAG!

From: Demmer
Date: 14-Mar-18




Smag, I told you exactly what was going to happen. Not exactly why you expected much different. Score dropped some, competition was there, and competitors aren't on the same level as him. It went like I thought it would go down.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 14-Mar-18




Not what i tead above. Everyone who tows the line has opportunity. Shooting high scores season wide is Super Elite top level. 280 something, Come on.

He had 295 with two 4 glance outs at State.

I knew after that he would shoot well on the big line no matter who stood nearby. 18 is 18 and tournament highs. I do realize theres lollypop, licky and chewies for all them classes. That said, scores carried the tourny.

From: Demmer
Date: 14-Mar-18




Smag, I give up brother. Half the time I can't follow along with anything you say.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 14-Mar-18




You been to the CZ with parkerized steel too. Ah, I think prolly not. My brothers go heavy on the left shoulder. No disrespect intended.

Just reading above comments /excuses on Bobby's previous big scores. Fat fingers on this fone. Sorry.

MAPA KAG!

From: JRW
Date: 14-Mar-18




"Smag, I give up brother. Half the time I can't follow along with anything you say."

At least you're batting 500. :)

From: limbwalker
Date: 14-Mar-18




I've always said trad attracts the weird ones. LOL

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 14-Mar-18




So, you say LW?

JW gets it. Not sure about The League of Justice?

From: Demmer
Date: 15-Mar-18




Lol ok

From: Scott Alaniz
Date: 15-Mar-18




requesting an interpreter

too bad, there was some good info on this thread...





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