Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


IBO Legal shelf?

Messages posted to thread:
JustSomeDude 20-Mar-17
Jim Casto Jr 20-Mar-17
Jim Casto Jr 20-Mar-17
JustSomeDude 20-Mar-17
Jim Casto Jr 20-Mar-17
JustSomeDude 20-Mar-17
K Cummings 21-Mar-17
K Cummings 21-Mar-17
Babbling Bob 21-Mar-17
JusPassin 21-Mar-17
Babbling Bob 21-Mar-17
K Cummings 21-Mar-17
JustSomeDude 22-Mar-17
Jim Casto Jr 22-Mar-17
Bowlim 22-Mar-17
voodoo 22-Mar-17
K Cummings 22-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 22-Mar-17
JustSomeDude 22-Mar-17
K Cummings 22-Mar-17
Jim Casto Jr 22-Mar-17
K Cummings 22-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 22-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 22-Mar-17
Don 22-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 22-Mar-17
K Cummings 23-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 23-Mar-17
voodoo 23-Mar-17
danceswithleaves 23-Mar-17
George D. Stout 04-Apr-17
Jon Stewart 04-Apr-17
K Cummings 04-Apr-17
George D. Stout 04-Apr-17
danceswithleaves 04-Apr-17
K Cummings 04-Apr-17
Stickshooter 07-Apr-17
kenn1320 07-Apr-17
George D. Stout 07-Apr-17
Bowlim 07-Apr-17
Bowlim 07-Apr-17
K Cummings 07-Apr-17
S.M.Robertson 07-Apr-17
From: JustSomeDude
Date: 20-Mar-17

JustSomeDude's embedded Photo



Is my Herters IBO legal? Sounds like it isn't.

"The shelf may not be built up in a manner that will give the archer an advantage in terms of feather or vane clearance. The intent is that the shelf meets the side of the riser (strike plate) so the built-up shelf may not be a pyramid that provides clearance and separation from the bow riser."

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 20-Mar-17




I don't know where your copy of the "rules" came from. Here's what the IBO says for the Traditional (TRD) class regarding the shelf.

"The shelf may be built up and the side plate may be built out with a hard material that has a minimal consistency of wood. The shelf and side plate may be covered with a softer material that is no thicker than 1/8 inch. TRD archers will shoot from the orange stake."

IMO, if that raised rest on the CD risers is legal, your's is.

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 20-Mar-17




Here's the entire guidelines for the TRD class. Copy and pasted from their website:

"Traditional (TRD) A recurve or longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers. Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check or clicker may be used. All arrows must be the same length and weight. Aluminum or carbon arrows must have screw-in field points; wood arrows may have glueon points. All arrows must have at least three (3) feathers or vanes no less than four (4) inches long. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only. An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1) inch above the arrow. The shelf may be built up and the side plate may be built out with a hard material that has a minimal consistency of wood. The shelf and side plate may be covered with a softer material that is no thicker than 1/8 inch. TRD archers will shoot from the orange stake."

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 20-Mar-17




It was here: http://www.ibo.net/traditionalrules

I enjoy shooting this bow so it would be fun

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 20-Mar-17




What you pasted is from the longbow classes, not recurve.

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 20-Mar-17




Ah! Good

From: K Cummings
Date: 21-Mar-17




IBO rules can get rather confusing but it should be remembered that the rules for the IBO Trad Worlds are different than the Rules for normal IBO combined events.

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the IBO combined even rules that says anything about the shelf "pyramid" that you speak of in either the "Traditional" or "Longbow" class.

*****************************************************************

From the 2017 IBO rules (combined events):

19. Longbow (LB)

A one (1) or two (2) piece longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers, Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check or clicker may be used. Arrows shall be made of wood and shall be identical in length, weight, and color (allowances shall be made for normal wear). Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser. LB archers will shoot from the white stake.

A longbow shot in LB shall conform to the following specifications:

1. The bowstring, when the bow is strung, may only contact the nocks of the bow. 2. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow; except a bow quiver clearly designed to hold arrows.

20. Traditional (TRD)

A recurve or longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers. Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check or clicker may be used. All arrows must be the same length and weight. Aluminum or carbon arrows must have screw-in field points; wood arrows may have glue-on points. All arrows must have at least three (3) feathers or vanes no less than four (4) inches long. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only. An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1) inch above the arrow. The shelf may be built up and the side plate may be built out with a hard material that has a minimal consistency of wood. The shelf and side plate may be covered with a softer material that is no thicker than 1/8 inch. TRD archers will shoot from the orange stake.

*****************************************************************

For the IBO TRAD WORLDS competition, the rules are as follows:

2. Longbow (LB)

a. Bow – one-piece, or two-piece take-down at all IBO events.

b. Arrow – must be wood, bamboo or cane.

A longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers, archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check or clicker may be used. Arrows shall be made of wood and shall be identical in length, weight, and color (allowances shall be made for normal wear). Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser. No soft materials that will assist or affect the paradox of the arrow may be used to build up the shelf or strike plate of the riser. Archers may use a hard material on the shelf or on the side of the riser under a hair or leather strip that does not exceed 1/8” thickness. The shelf may not be built up in a manner that will give the archer an advantage in terms of feather or vane clearance. The intent is that the shelf meets the side of the riser (strike plate) so the built-up shelf may not be a pyramid that provides clearance and separation from the bow riser. Archers will shoot from the White stake. A longbow shot in LB shall conform to the following specifications:

1. The bowstring, when the bow is strung, may only contact the nocks of the bow.

2. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow; except a bow quiver clearly designed to hold arrows

4. Modern Longbow (MLB)

a. Bow–any design as long as string only touches string grove or bow tip.

b. Arrow – an arrow of any material may be used. Aluminum or carbon arrows must have screw-in field points; wood arrows may have glue on points. All arrows must have at least three (3) feathers or vanes no less than four (4) inches long.

A longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers. Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check will be allowed. All arrows must be the same length and weight. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only. An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1) inch above the arrow. No soft materials that will assist or affect the paradox of the arrow may be used to build up the shelf or strike plate of the riser. Archers may use a hard material on the shelf or on the side of the riser under a hair or leather strip that does not exceed 1/8” thickness. The shelf may not be built up in a manner that will give the archer an advantage in terms of feather or vane clearance. The intent is that the shelf meets the side of the riser (strike plate) so the built-up shelf may not be a pyramid that provides clearance and separation from the bow riser. Archers will shoot from the Orange stake.

5. Recurve (REC)

a. Bow – a recurve or longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers. Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check will be allowed.

b. Arrows - arrows may be made of any material. All arrows must be the same length and weight. Aluminum or carbon arrows must have screw-in field points; wood arrows may have glue on points. All arrows must have at least three (3) feathers or vanes no less than four (4) inches long.

c. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only. An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1) inch above the arrow. No soft materials that will assist or affect the paradox of the arrow may be used to build up the shelf or strike plate of the riser. Archers may use a hard material on the shelf or on the side of the riser under a hair or leather strip that does not exceed 1/8” thickness. The shelf may not be built up in a manner that will give the archer an advantage in terms of feather or vane clearance. The intent is that the shelf meets the side of the riser (strike plate) so the built-up shelf may not be a pyramid that provides clearance and separation from the bow riser. Recurve archers will shoot from the orange stake.

*****************************************************************

Sorry for the long post, but this stuff gets kind of confusing.

Now, in terms of your specific shelf. I see no problem with it in either the IBO TRAD WORLD or the IBO COMBINED events. As long as there is no space between the tip of the "pyramid" and the side plate, that would help with fletching clearance, the shelf would be legal. They are referring to a pyramid that runs front to back, not side to side like yours.

Hope that makes sense.

KPC

From: K Cummings
Date: 21-Mar-17

K Cummings's embedded Photo



Here is a crude illustration of what I am talking about.

The illustration on the left shows a "pyramid" where the apex runs front to back creating a space between it and the riser, allowing for better fletching clearance.

In the illustration on the right, the apex runs side to side and meets the riser creating no space for better fletching clearance.

It's a shame that all these organizations can be more consistent with their rules. They would be a lot easier to interpret/enforce, and in my opinion it would encourage a lot more participation.

KPC

KPC

From: Babbling Bob Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 21-Mar-17




So based on the 1/8 inch material, a feather rest would not be legal, but a rug rest would?

From: JusPassin Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 21-Mar-17




Sounds like it would have to be a mighty short feather rest.

From: Babbling Bob Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 21-Mar-17




Yup

From: K Cummings
Date: 21-Mar-17

K Cummings's embedded Photo



"So based on the 1/8 inch material, a feather rest would not be legal, but a rug rest would?"

Correct.

Ironically, you can build the shelf up as far as you want with a "hard" material, as long as the soft part is 1/8" or less.

KPC

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 22-Mar-17

JustSomeDude's embedded Photo



So you can do this?

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 22-Mar-17

Jim Casto Jr's embedded Photo



As long as the side plate doesn't have a spring (plunger-type) or cushion built in, yes.

I settled for the "old" Martin adjustable side plate for my 23" Hoyt Nexus riser.

From: Bowlim
Date: 22-Mar-17




The main detail with JSD's bow seems to be constructed from material left over from forming the riser. That material, or the WF riser are not "built up". The process was reductive.

From: voodoo
Date: 22-Mar-17

voodoo's embedded Photo



How about a string suppressor?..... not talking the launcher rest or the stab/stand.... just the string suppressor itself, I didn't see anything not allowing one....

From: K Cummings
Date: 22-Mar-17

K Cummings's embedded Photo



Jim:

I've been told that the setup you have on your Nexus would not be legal at "IBO Trad Worlds" but it would be legal at an IBO combined event. Same with the felt pad setup I used to use on my Titan (shown here.)

If there is a space or channel between the side plate and the shelf, that could aid in fletching clearance, it would be illegal.

"The intent is that the shelf meets the side of the riser (strike plate) so the built-up shelf may not be a pyramid that provides clearance and separation from the bow riser."

Ridiculous? I think so.

Maybe it all depends on who is judging and who is complaining.

:)

KPC

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 22-Mar-17




That picture is not Ok in Trad but is Ok in the RU class , if they were only an 1/8 thick they would be Ok in Trad LOL

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 22-Mar-17




My furniture pads are right at 1/8" thick. But you could also get into a 'what is soft material' discussion too...the pads I have are really stiff. But you can fluff it up on the surface a little.

From: K Cummings
Date: 22-Mar-17




"That picture is not Ok in Trad but is Ok in the RU class , if they were only an 1/8 thick they would be Ok in Trad LOL"

Even if they were only 1/8 thick, it is my understanding that they still wouldn't be legal in the Recurve (REC), Longbow (LB) or Modern Longbow (MLB) classes at Trad Worlds.

Clear as mud, right?

KPC

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 22-Mar-17




JSD,

As I understand the rule, it doesn't matter if the material is "soft" as long as it's no more than 1/8" thick and is on a rigid platform.

Kevin, you rascal. You do have a way of throwing a wrench in the cog sometimes. :^)

Calvin,

If you're still watching this thread, is the old Martin side plate I posted on my Nexus okay?

From: K Cummings
Date: 22-Mar-17




"Kevin, you rascal. You do have a way of throwing a wrench in the cog sometimes. :^)

It's not me with the wrench Jim, talk to IBO about that one.

:)

Now, IBO says that whatever you build the shelf up with has to have the "minimum consistency of wood."

How long do you think it will be before someone tells them that cork is wood?

Or maybe I just did...

:)

KPC

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 22-Mar-17




K, only the build up has to touch not the 1/8 pads ! Jim if the side plate came all the way down to the shelf it would be. adjustable side plate is ok it just needs to touch the shelf and be solid. they are not overly picky as long as there is no big gap on the hard part, the 1/8 in pads do not need to touch. I hope I said this so everyone understands . LOL

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 22-Mar-17




John that Herter's is OK !! It's fine

From: Don
Date: 22-Mar-17




Any restrictions on a wrist strap? No stabilizer

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 22-Mar-17




Don , No you can use just about anything as long as it doesn't look like your trying to add weight to the front of the bow. VooDoo while it doesn't say anything about that, someone would call that a back bar . That would be a ask when your there and see what they say. I personally would not see it that way but I'm not in charge of anything they do . LOL

From: K Cummings
Date: 23-Mar-17




"K, only the build up has to touch not the 1/8 pads!"

That makes total sense Calvin, I appreciate the clarification.

Back when I was using that setup, I was told by an "expert" on another site that even if the pads were 1/8", they would be illegal because of the "channel."

KPC

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 23-Mar-17




Well the guy that made the rule, clarified it to me cause his bow was set up that way, cause I called him on it ! LOL

From: voodoo
Date: 23-Mar-17




Thanks Calvin, the "bar" that mounts the supressor is a hollow fiberglass tent pole, it was an experiment to decrease the vibrations only as my neck has been broken 3 times and it does calm those vibrations down to a tolerable level for me.... I will ask as the TAS worlds will be here next week and I'd sure like to use it there....

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 23-Mar-17




Voodoo I'm not sure that TAS cares and as long as it's not a piece of steel, not sure why they would. But you never know, show, ask, and explain why. see what they say. Cal

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 04-Apr-17




A feather rest can be put right against the side plate. So why would that not be okay?

From: Jon Stewart
Date: 04-Apr-17




It was just so much easier in the 60's. And then Bill Pierce (former owner of Proline) showed up at a tournament wearing golf shoes. lol

X2 George St wrote.

From: K Cummings
Date: 04-Apr-17




"A feather rest can be put right against the side plate. So why would that not be okay?"

Depends on the ruling body George.

IBO says the you can build the shelf up as far as you want with a "hard material that has a minimal consistency of wood" however, if it is a "softer material" like a feather rest, it can be no more than 1/8" thick.

"The shelf may be built up and the side plate may be built out with a hard material that has a minimal consistency of wood. The shelf and side plate may be covered with a softer material that is no thicker than 1/8 inch.

That would disqualify most any feather rest I've ever seen.

KPC

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 04-Apr-17




Yeah Kevin. Some rules are silly when looked at from vintage eyes, but they are rules no matter what the purpose was. Feather rests were used in the 50's on bows, and those setups would not be considered traditional in IBO's words, but ILF bows with adjustable side plates are. Okay then. 8^)

The PSAA isn't much different when it comes to a "traditional class." Someones idea of what it's supposed to be isn't what it used to be. We just have to adapt if we want to compete. As an old fart plus class, I just have to choose my poison accordingly, but I can compete in several classes with just the change of material pretty much. Maybe we could make it interesting and have a Vintage class, where bows prior to say 1975 would qualify, and period arrows, etc.

From: danceswithleaves
Date: 04-Apr-17




George, as long as it was only 1/8 high I would think that you could. But that's only my take on it. LOL and one of them don't think much of my opinion ! LOL

From: K Cummings
Date: 04-Apr-17




"Yeah Kevin. Some rules are silly when looked at from vintage eyes, but they are rules no matter what the purpose was. Feather rests were used in the 50's on bows, and those setups would not be considered traditional in IBO's words, but ILF bows with adjustable side plates are. Okay then. 8^)"

Exactly.

:)

KPC

From: Stickshooter
Date: 07-Apr-17




I just picked up a 1961 herters with same shelf.

From: kenn1320
Date: 07-Apr-17




Its not whats considered Trad George, plenty of guys have opinions on that. Its rules that can easily be controlled. Im sure there were rest and sights back then as well, yet they arent allowed in the trad class.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 07-Apr-17




Kinda what I'm talking about Kenn1320. Max Hamilton won the 1952 Nationals with an elevated rest and plastic vanes. History is meaningless to some folks. It is what it is though.

From: Bowlim
Date: 07-Apr-17




Seems to be based on an old idea, as widely promoted by the likes of Ken at Black widow, that you can get better performance out of a shoot through system. But current thinking seems to prefer the idea the arrow or fletching isn't anywhere near the rest as it goes through. And that one can even shoot arrows with the fletches in pretty much any orientation.

So basically if the current thinking is that the slot doesn't help, why worry if you can't have it?

From: Bowlim
Date: 07-Apr-17




"Its not whats considered Trad George, plenty of guys have opinions on that. Its rules that can easily be controlled. Im sure there were rest and sights back then as well, yet they arent allowed in the trad class."

For two reasons:

1) despite the "If I keep repeating it, it will become true" folks here. Trad was never about old, or preexisting.

2a) Rules in sports don't determine reality. So they have rules on things like longbows that have nothing to do with longbows. They were just there to plug holes in the wall that appear from time to time.

2b) Unless you have an organization like they have in golf that is devoted to preserving the traditional character of the sport across the board. But if anything we have the exact opposite as the entities in archery are run by the clowns with the manufacturers. Profit is their only concern. And that isn't bad, but don't expect it to conform to anyone's cherished ideas if it gets in the way of money.

From: K Cummings
Date: 07-Apr-17




"Seems to be based on an old idea, as widely promoted by the likes of Ken at Black widow, that you can get better performance out of a shoot through system. But current thinking seems to prefer the idea the arrow or fletching isn't anywhere near the rest as it goes through. And that one can even shoot arrows with the fletches in pretty much any orientation.

So basically if the current thinking is that the slot doesn't help, why worry if you can't have it?

In my opinion, that's what makes some of the rules so ridiculous.

Unfortunately, high speed video wasn't readily available back in the day. If it was, some of the old wives tales that are still being held on to today would have fallen by the wayside.

KPC

From: S.M.Robertson
Date: 07-Apr-17

S.M.Robertson's embedded Photo



This thread got me to thinking. I shoot a 600 tournament at my local archery club that was a qualifer for the PSAA shoot in Harrisburg, last weekend. Im not a member of the PSAA so my score did not count. One of the officers in the club wanted me to join and go to Harrisburg representing our club, as im the only recurve shooting member. So, i read uP PSAA's rules. Recurve max. length 64"amo. My two target bows are 68", vintage target bows from 60's and 70's. Good ones too! Solid color string. Mine are two color. The rest is moot. I can fix the string thing but not length. I enjoy shooting these older target bows! Like George Stout said...a vintage bow class for us old farts.





If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here




Visit Bowsite.com A Traditional Archery Community Become a Sponsor
Stickbow.com © 2003. By using this site you agree to our Terms and Conditions and our Privacy Policy