Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Stack

Messages posted to thread:
camodave 20-Mar-17
Jeff Durnell 20-Mar-17
RymanCat 20-Mar-17
PECO 20-Mar-17
GLF 20-Mar-17
Brad Lehmann 20-Mar-17
camodave 20-Mar-17
Scooby-doo 20-Mar-17
Dkincaid 20-Mar-17
Linecutter 20-Mar-17
George D. Stout 20-Mar-17
Babbling Bob 20-Mar-17
Brad Lehmann 20-Mar-17
Glunt@work 20-Mar-17
camodave 20-Mar-17
camodave 20-Mar-17
Bowlim 20-Mar-17
Bowlim 20-Mar-17
Bowlim 20-Mar-17
Archer 20-Mar-17
cut it out 20-Mar-17
camodave 20-Mar-17
camodave 20-Mar-17
Longcruise 20-Mar-17
camodave 20-Mar-17
Osr144 21-Mar-17
Bowlim 21-Mar-17
PEARL DRUMS 21-Mar-17
camodave 21-Mar-17
2 bears 21-Mar-17
Longcruise 22-Mar-17
Longcruise 22-Mar-17
Longcruise 22-Mar-17
camodave 22-Mar-17
Longcruise 22-Mar-17
Longcruise 22-Mar-17
Longcruise 22-Mar-17
Longcruise 22-Mar-17
George D. Stout 23-Mar-17
camodave 23-Mar-17
Longcruise 23-Mar-17
RymanCat 23-Mar-17
camodave 23-Mar-17
Silverhawk 23-Mar-17
Longcruise 23-Mar-17
From: camodave
Date: 20-Mar-17




I will argue that stacking is irrelevant until you reach the limit of the draw weight you are able to manage at the moment.

DDave

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 20-Mar-17




I'd say it's not irrelevant, but am not in the mood to argue with you, so believe what you like ;^)

From: RymanCat
Date: 20-Mar-17




BLACKTAILS STACK! I'VE ONLY HAD 10 OF THEM AND STILL HAVE ONE AND DON'T CARE IF IT'S LIGHT OR HEAVY WEIGHT THEY ALL HAVE STACKED.

NO ARGUMENT TO IT DAVE ITS FACT ON ALL OF THEM I HAD OR STILL HAVE. HOWEVER I LOVE MY BLACKTAILS JUST PULL IT AND THEN LET HER GO AND KEEP OTHERS AWAY FROM THEM BECAUSE THEIR DROOL COULD GET ON THE BOW.LOL

From: PECO
Date: 20-Mar-17




I say it is irrelevant if it happens after your draw length, or if you are over bowed.

From: GLF
Date: 20-Mar-17




A bow that's smooth to your draw length is more comfortable to shoot. But according to your strength you may not feel the added weight per inch as much as someone else.

From: Brad Lehmann Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 20-Mar-17




All bows stack. I just want them to stack in somewhat equal increments.

From: camodave
Date: 20-Mar-17




I find when I shoot a comfortable bow I am not as engaged. I want the bow to push my limits a little.

DDave

From: Scooby-doo
Date: 20-Mar-17




Stack normally does not matter until you are the guy with a draw of 28"s then it can get bad in a hurry. K-Mags actually start stacking pretty early and a lot of times go from 3#s and inch at 27#s to 5-6#s and inch past that. It does matter. Rymancat is right on the blacktails that is why you have them made to your specs. If you have a 28" draw and buy one made for 29-30" draw it will not stack. Shawn

From: Dkincaid
Date: 20-Mar-17




Depends on how you define stack

From: Linecutter
Date: 20-Mar-17




The problem is in how some define stack. For some it is where they can't draw any farther. Which really doesn't define stack if as mention previously, more often means they are over bowed. Most don't even know what stacking means. DANNY

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 20-Mar-17




Stacking is normally defined as an unusual build up of weight after a certain draw is reached. In other words, it may be 3# per inch until 29", and they jump 5# the next inch. It is very easy to measure with a decent scale and a piece of paper to mark the readings.

From: Babbling Bob Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 20-Mar-17




Think George has a good common sense answer.

Some bows stack like crazy so it's a design situation. Gorly bows, which were inexpensive recurves made in Tulsa long ago, stacked so much it was noticed by many and they were popular only among a few folks who were local friends or followers of Gorly. They even stacked at my 26-inch draw. Some Peasons stacked for me and many factory bows from many manufacturers varied in the amount they might stack, often based on a particular model. Also, I'm convinced the the actual feel of staking varies from one person to another.

From: Brad Lehmann Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 20-Mar-17




Bob is right about perception. My 50# Whippenstick Phoenix had a perceived feel of a whole lot of preload. But when I scaled it on the drawboard and compared it to several other similar weight bows, the numbers are almost identical.

From: Glunt@work
Date: 20-Mar-17




Holding 50# is holding 50# whether that last inch was 2# or 6#. That doesn't make it irrelevant. "Smooth" bows are generally more popular. Most guys want a bow that stacks, they just want one that does it early in the process.

How stacking effects performance after the release is the other 1/2 of the equation.

From: camodave
Date: 20-Mar-17




I am now on my fourth KMag. I know to buy them 10 pounds lighter than what I want to shoot at 30 inches. Otherwise I buy bows that are 5 pounds lighter. Both of my current KMags are 50@28. And somewhere around 60@30.

DDave

From: camodave
Date: 20-Mar-17




One of the worst bows for stack is my 69 inch Tamerlane. Long riser with short working limbs.

DDave

From: Bowlim
Date: 20-Mar-17




"I will argue that stacking is irrelevant until you reach the limit of the draw weight you are able to manage at the moment.

DDave"

That isn't an argument, that is a statement.

Given that almost all bow designs for target shooting seem to avoid stack, including compound designs (though the wall is an interesting phenom), seems like an uphill contest of ideas.

On performance, bows with stack, that have simple F/D curves (as most sticks do), have less energy under the curve than bows that have inverse stack. So if you believe there is an relationship between what is under the F/D curve and performance (which there is in normal designs) then that might be of interest.

So conventional wisdom is that bows that don't stack are more comfortable to shoot, and have more stored energy relative to their peak draw weight. Sounds like a good deal to me.

From: Bowlim
Date: 20-Mar-17

Bowlim's embedded Photo



Here is an F/D curve. The blue line is a non-stacking bow with highly favorable F/D for a stick. It's exaggerated for clarity. The red line is a bow that stacks, and a configuration like that is not out of the question. You can see how there is more area under the Blue line, than the red line. That is the potential for a performance difference.

From: Bowlim
Date: 20-Mar-17

Bowlim's embedded Photo



I would also say that if you look at the comparison of those two curves the case is there that the blue line would be cleaner off the fingers. Faster lock time, but in archery terms, less time on the fingers.

From: Archer
Date: 20-Mar-17




From: cut it out
Date: 20-Mar-17




Sounds like someone needs a new Black Widow :)

From: camodave
Date: 20-Mar-17




I only shoot real bows with real force draw curves. I gave up shooting theoretical bows when I ran out of theoretical arrows.

DDave

From: camodave
Date: 20-Mar-17




I am a Math teacher. I know all about trying to distort a picture using a graph. A graph without numbers is totally meaningless. One of the worst stacking bows I have ever experienced is my 52 inch Chek-Mate Cascade. And 250 spine arrows are a bit on the weak side with it. Not bad for an inefficient bow eh.

And just to make Codjigger's day I am going to declare that bow to be the elusive Canuck Holy Grail. I would post a pic but the glow off that bow makes it impossible. Takes it a few days to cool off after I shoot it.

DDave

From: Longcruise
Date: 20-Mar-17




There is no attempt at distortion in bowlims graphs the top DC is somewhat unlikely, but it does illustrate the point being discussed. The lower curve is shows a typical stacking draw.

From: camodave
Date: 20-Mar-17




So without numbers? how much variation are we talking. A lot or a little. Because that graphic implies a lot and my experience indicates a little.

DDave

From: Osr144
Date: 21-Mar-17

Osr144's embedded Photo



I personally feel that bows stack when the drawing reaches a point where it is at 90 degrees to the limb.I don't think it's real good so a longer bow usually fixes the problem.Properly designed recurves adress this problem .They remind me of a coiled snake ready to strike.This Turkish flight bow apears to be near maximum. OSR

From: Bowlim
Date: 21-Mar-17




Double D, you can actually google, force draw curve images, and while you have to wade through a lot of compound stuff you will find real bow examples based on actual numbers.

That drawing I did, I had to draw it using some set of curves in my cad program, and I wanted the same starting point, and finish point for simplicity sake. In reality a lot of stacking bows are actually significantly worse.

As a math genius you should be able to visualize this. Most bows look more like the straight line in the middle, and then at the last moment they tweak up a pound an inch to full draw, if they have say, 2 inches of stack, which is far from an impossible situation. That puts the vast majority of the slope on a different parallel than the peak draw weight. They don't rejoin the line as in my graph, they miss the start point on the left hand point entirely. It's worse than I illustrated, in the average example. As far as lost energy under the force draw curve is concerned.

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 21-Mar-17




Man alive! The garbage never stops flowing around here, I love it like a brother. makes it easy to separate those from them. Its obvious who studied and who just babbles to fit in the crowd. Once a fella actually takes 15 minutes to understand limb movement and its effect on energy storage and delivery, its really quite simple to define stacking.

From: camodave
Date: 21-Mar-17




Not a math genius. Just a guy on a friendly traditional bowhunting website trying to encourage people to give some thought to terms like stack that mean different things to different folks.

DDave

From: 2 bears
Date: 21-Mar-17




I often see where a person thinks stacking is just an increase in draw weight. I believe all bows continue to increase in weight right up to the breaking point.Average bows increase 2 to 3 pounds per inch in the usable draw length range. Say about 27"to 29" It is the point where it suddenly increases to 5 or more pounds per inch that it is said to start stacking. As a rule of thumb the shorter the bow the shorter the draw length before this occurs. The longer the bow the later it occurs. Most bowyers offer a suggested length for a given draw length. Shorter draw archers benefit with a bow short enough that they get well in to the best working length of the limbs. Those of us with longer draws need a bow long enough to reach its potential with out getting in to the stack. Of course they all vary some what. Try them or listen to the bowyer. >>>-----> Ken

From: Longcruise
Date: 22-Mar-17

Longcruise's embedded Photo



Here's a couple actual curves with numbers to satisfy all the math teachers in attendance. :>)

Assume a shooter with a 28" draw. Do you see the stacker?

From: Longcruise
Date: 22-Mar-17

Longcruise's embedded Photo



From: Longcruise
Date: 22-Mar-17

Longcruise's embedded Photo



From: camodave
Date: 22-Mar-17




Longcruise I have to admit you win the prize. But since it stacks I guess you will not want it eh. Oh well I will just keep it and hunt with it. Plenty efficient enough to kill any game I hunt.

DDave

From: Longcruise
Date: 22-Mar-17

Longcruise's embedded Photo



Dave, I gotta tell ya, I'm not trying to one up anyone but rather just shed a little light on the stack subject.

As for the stacker known as "little Red", that bow will not leave my possession as long as I'm alive. :-)

My dad acquired that bow in 1953 or 1954 when his lemonwood self bow broke. The season was on and he went to the only sporting goods store in town which was luckily owned and operated by a friend and fellow archer/bow hunter. He had this little bow on the shelf and my dad bought it. The only markings on this bow say 40# @26" and look like they were engraved into the aluminum handle with one of those little home engravers that vibrates. I don't know if it was put there by the maker or by the store owner or by my dad. You can tell by the FD curve that it is not an accurate label but may have been at the time.

It is 56" NTN and solid fiberglass with the cross section of the limbs being the same as an old time ELB. When it's unstrung the limbs are set slightly toward the face. They are solidly seated in the aluminum handle and do not come out. It is also ambidextrous. I put the string wrap on it.

I have never seen another bow like this and neither has anyone who has looked at it. Maybe a member here will know something about it?

At first glance this looks like a kid's bow and believe me my grand kids argue over who gets to shoot it. But it is an adults bow and plenty deadly having accounted for quite a few deer and one absolutely monstrous UP black bear.

My dad never acquired another bow. Didn't think he needed another.

I have carried it on a few hunts over the years but in fact that stacking at the last few inches bothers me a bit and the grip is not at all like my favored ASLs.

From: Longcruise
Date: 22-Mar-17

Longcruise's embedded Photo



THAT IS NOT THE PICTURE I POSTED!!

I'll try again!

From: Longcruise
Date: 22-Mar-17

Longcruise's embedded Photo



From: Longcruise
Date: 22-Mar-17

Longcruise's embedded Photo



From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 23-Mar-17




Little Red is a Grimes by my I.D. It looks like their signature riser. Be aware though that others made bows like that right after WWII when aluminum was once again allowed for commercial use. Par X was one of them, and another in Michigan that I can't recall right now.

From: camodave
Date: 23-Mar-17




Thanks for the explanation. My point all along has been that disliking stack is not the same as not being able to shoot a bow fine.

DDave

From: Longcruise
Date: 23-Mar-17




Thanks, George. You are the first to put a name to this bow even though tentative.

Par X. I had one of those that was passed on by an uncle 55# all aluminum limbs. Long with abruptly reflexed tips. A slow bow.

I now regret trading it off. Would be nice to have it just as an interesting bit of history.

From: RymanCat
Date: 23-Mar-17




I also believe there are varied differences in stacking also if that is possible.

My Big Horns stack differently than my Blacktails that are more stiff than smooth as silk as other bows.

As far as a looker the Blacktails have it but are stiff that's the only think I disliked ever. Wes Wallances any I've had never were like this and they both were taught at the same time I thought by Brackenbury with South Cox? None of Souths bows every were stiff. Someone told me it was in the lames how Norm lays up his bows? I don't know.

Some bows are very smooth where others are not.Don't hinder how they shoot just how they pull I found.

From: camodave
Date: 23-Mar-17




The Blacktail I had was made from Paul Shirek and the two sets of limbs were marked 54@30 and 58@30. Those limbs did not have a hint of stack to 30 inches as I recall. Norm actually recommended his 66 inch curve for 30 inches. Mine was 64.

DDave

From: Silverhawk
Date: 23-Mar-17




George. maybe it was the "Jet". Back in the day my mother shot a jet and it stacked horribly the last inch of her draw. I can't believe none of you wizards have mentioned what stacking does to accuracy.

From: Longcruise
Date: 23-Mar-17




???? What does it do?? :-)





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