Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


The Archer's Paradox in Slow Motion

Messages posted to thread:
hud 19-Mar-17
George D. Stout 19-Mar-17
GLF 19-Mar-17
2 bears 19-Mar-17
Wild Bill 20-Mar-17
George Tsoukalas 20-Mar-17
Runner 20-Mar-17
aromakr 20-Mar-17
Bowmania 20-Mar-17
Runner 20-Mar-17
Woods Walker 20-Mar-17
George Tsoukalas 20-Mar-17
limbwalker 20-Mar-17
Glunt@work 20-Mar-17
jaz5833 20-Mar-17
Runner 20-Mar-17
jaz5833 20-Mar-17
Wild Bill 20-Mar-17
GLF 20-Mar-17
GLF 20-Mar-17
Runner 20-Mar-17
GLF 20-Mar-17
Runner 20-Mar-17
2 bears 20-Mar-17
Wild Bill 21-Mar-17
2 bears 21-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
2 bears 22-Mar-17
GLF 22-Mar-17
Bob Rowlands 23-Mar-17
Kodiak 23-Mar-17
dean 23-Mar-17
From: hud
Date: 19-Mar-17




Smarter Everyday video with Byron Ferguson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zewtuUM_0

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 19-Mar-17




There have been dozens of videos over the years showing the same thing and they are enlightening. I'm just happy I don't shoot in slow motion or I would likely never get tuned.

From: GLF
Date: 19-Mar-17




ut oh

From: 2 bears
Date: 19-Mar-17




Very good visual aid. Watch Byron,s arrow at regular speed and slow motion. Yet folks continue to say they can see that oscillation well enough to tune their arrows. I only wish I could. I don't dispute that they can but most of the rest of us can't. That is why a far better method is to read the arrows in the target. Keep um flying. >>>-----> Ken

From: Wild Bill
Date: 20-Mar-17




"That is why a far better method "

2bears, Let's qualify that opinion. FOR YOU, that is a far better method.

Some others prefer to shoot through paper.

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 20-Mar-17




Well, if you can see the oscillation your arrow is not tuned. Jawge

From: Runner
Date: 20-Mar-17




If you can't see it it doesn't mean it is tuned either. ;)

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 20-Mar-17




There are several aspects of that video that are incorrect!! One is with a finger release the string does not go straight forward it is pushed to the side as it rolls off the fingers. In the example of the compound bow using a release aid the string does go straight forward. The reason that Folberth had difficulty with his shoot through bow design, was caused by the string rolling off the fingers. If he had used a release aid it would have worked.

Bob

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 20-Mar-17




I agree with 2 Bears. If you're one of the guys who can, you will pull your hair out when you run into your first false positive.

And when it comes to paper and your having a certain kind of trouble and then you take a couple of step back and it's gone. I've got too frustrated to find out what the trouble was for sure.

Bowmania

From: Runner
Date: 20-Mar-17




So now we agree that a deep hook doesn't "flip the fingers out of the way"? ;)

From: Woods Walker
Date: 20-Mar-17




I used to have a bow that actually shot that slow!

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 20-Mar-17




True, Runner and Bob. Jawge

From: limbwalker
Date: 20-Mar-17




"Yet folks continue to say they can see that oscillation well enough to tune their arrows. I only wish I could. I don't dispute that they can but most of the rest of us can't. That is why a far better method is to read the arrows in the target..."

"Well, if you can see the oscillation your arrow is not tuned..."

It all depends on what level of "tuning" we are trying to achieve.

The arrow in the bale can be very misleading. It's not necessarily how or where it is in the bale, it's how it gets there that matters, and you have to be able to see the arrow in flight to tune to that level, which is why I often tune my student's bows in the afternoon, facing West, so I can see the reflection of the sunlight off the shaft as it flies to the bale.

I think some folks are confusing oscillation with planing also.

From: Glunt@work
Date: 20-Mar-17




Seeing paradox in slow mo for the first time is an eye opener for most folks.

I struggled with tuning for years until I developed the Paradoscillation (copyright 2017) system.

From: jaz5833
Date: 20-Mar-17




Paradox IS NOT an arrow in flight

Paradox is something that doesn't make logical sense.

For example: An arrow is pointing to the left of the target when aimed, yet it hits that target regardless. It does not make logical sense, so it is a Paradox.

The bending of an arrow in flight, is nothing more than an arrow in flight.

Case in point. A center shot bow, traditional or otherwise, does not display paradox. WHY? Because the arrow is pointing at the target it intends to hit, yet it too, bends and flexes in flight.

From: Runner
Date: 20-Mar-17




Oh no. Here goes the paradox definition train again.

From: jaz5833
Date: 20-Mar-17




Until proper terminology is used, tickets will always be on sale too.

From: Wild Bill
Date: 20-Mar-17




Maybe eight years ago I heard, here on leatherwall, that oscillations in the arrow, begin in the string, and, while not completely removable, they can be reduced. The procedure at that time required a television screen, of the tube type. With nothing but a snowy screen, viewing the string, from the side, with the TV screen as background, from a slight dry fire, extreme string oscillations could be observed. Reducing the oscillations was done by altering the brace to achieve a minimum level. It was marvelous, and I still own a tube type TV.

I never, never, never believed a deep hook was a cleaner release.:)

From: GLF
Date: 20-Mar-17




Lmao, runner now you know why my first post was what it was,lol.

From: GLF
Date: 20-Mar-17




A deep hook ,if that's what you wanna call it, is a cleaner release only because a relaxed forearm and hand gives a cleaner release, something impossible to do with the string on your fingertips. Some can shoot well that way but not many.

From: Runner
Date: 20-Mar-17




Except of course when you watch with a slo motion video as noted.

From: GLF
Date: 20-Mar-17




lol, nope. Its about forearm and fingers being relaxed to avoid plucking the string. As for the string going around your fingers nothing will change that but being relaxed will minimize it.

From: Runner
Date: 20-Mar-17




As long as you ignore the video, sure. ;)

From: 2 bears
Date: 20-Mar-17




May I clear up a couple of points. Wild Bill I didn't say best method. I said better than visual. There are several methods and paper tuning is another,but for most folks shooting fingers it is very difficult not to get the left and right tears because as some one else said, the string rolls off the fingers and you get the oscillation from side to side. George T.- if oscillation is so bad you can see it of course you are not tuned. My point exactly I can not see the flexing unless it is very bad or in slow motion. Jaz5883 You are absolutely right about Paradox. Limbwalker I know you have a bundle of knowledge/experience. I apologize for forgetting your name in my "Star the rest of the story thread". I try to read all of your posts. I don't interpret the angle of the arrows in the bale for the exact reason you stated. The location of matching bare shafts as opposed to fletched shafts in the target will not lie. I hope that clears it up I should have made it planner the first time. >>>-----> Ken

From: Wild Bill
Date: 21-Mar-17




2bears,

"May I clear up a couple of points. Wild Bill I didn't say best method. I said better than visual."

I didn't say "best" either. I simply cut and pasted what you said.

"the string rolls off the fingers and you get the oscillation from side to side"

Now just maybe, that is a feature caused by deep hook draws, which I don't use.

From: 2 bears
Date: 21-Mar-17




Not to argue Wild Bill I guess I am missing your point. I am positive you are in the minority over the deep hook. Not only with the pros but folks on this thread. See relaxed hand, wrist, and fore arm. Now if you will click on the "nock left" thread on the first page, the chart will explain it far better than I can. I have seen the arrows walked together by making the adjustments,untold numbers of times. I have never see it fail. If you don't believe the results or refuse to try it---Well to each his own. It don't matter. Not ever one even cares if their rig is well tuned but there is no down side. Just Have fun.>>>------> Ken

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




I'm interested in opinions about paper tuning validity given the side to side movement of the arrow shaft in flight. I also wonder how much vertical up and down movement there is. Perhaps paper tuning for spine is not that accurate, but for nock point adjustment it is...what say ye?

From: 2 bears
Date: 22-Mar-17




David, I had good results paper tuning with a compound and release. I couldn't get rid of the left right tears with fingers. I was attempting to paper tune a compound with fingers. An Olympic archer looked at the paper and said that is about as good as it gets with fingers. At that time I used paper and bare shaft tuning. I stick to bare shaft/fletched comparison tuning now. If I remember right,I had about a 1/4 inch left tear. I was used to getting bullet holes and was not satisfied,so bare shaft only now. It could have been the fingers were already starting to stiffen with the onset of arthritis. As always, I am open to suggestions.>>>------> Ken

From: GLF
Date: 22-Mar-17




Paper tuning works if you're the right distance from it. I couldn't tell you what that is tho, unless you got far enough back that the arrows is no longer gyrating. A guy told me once 6ft was the distance to use but I never tried it to see.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 23-Mar-17




I've done that and came away with it being a waste of my time. I'd need a teacher right there demonstrating and instructing me on what to do, to figure that out. I really doubt my form is good enough to read an unfletched arrow.

From: Kodiak
Date: 23-Mar-17




Paper tuning? No thanks.

I don't bare shaft either.

From: dean
Date: 23-Mar-17




Guys here tested longbows, recurves and compounds and videoed with a really fancy camera from the college. They showed that with none center shot bows the arrows first bend is into the bowstring path shot with a release, just about the same as when finger released. With a pure center shot compound, my center jawed trigger release and my tapered carbons, there was virtually no oscillation at all. It was not my compound and I didn't shoot it, but that combination gave the steadiest launch.





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