Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Howatt Serial # Guide

Messages posted to thread:
Pdiddly 16-Mar-17
crookedstix 16-Mar-17
Chas 16-Mar-17
Blackhawk 16-Mar-17
Firewater 16-Mar-17
Buzz 16-Mar-17
Knifeguy 16-Mar-17
Pdiddly 16-Mar-17
Archergreg 16-Mar-17
Pdiddly 18-Mar-17
Pdiddly 18-Mar-17
Pdiddly 18-Mar-17
Pdiddly 18-Mar-17
Pdiddly 18-Mar-17
Pdiddly 18-Mar-17
Pdiddly 18-Mar-17
grizzly 19-Mar-17
Pdiddly 19-Mar-17
Pdiddly 19-Mar-17
crookedstix 19-Mar-17
Pdiddly 19-Mar-17
grizzly 19-Mar-17
grizzly 19-Mar-17
Pdiddly 20-Mar-17
grizzly 20-Mar-17
Pdiddly 20-Mar-17
grizzly 20-Mar-17
Pdiddly 20-Mar-17
Pdiddly 20-Mar-17
Pdiddly 20-Mar-17
Pdiddly 20-Mar-17
Pdiddly 20-Mar-17
grizzly 20-Mar-17
Pdiddly 20-Mar-17
Pdiddly 20-Mar-17
grizzly 21-Mar-17
Pdiddly 22-Mar-17
grizzly 22-Mar-17
kodiaklectomy 23-Mar-17
Pdiddly 23-Mar-17
WillMac 23-Mar-17
From: Pdiddly
Date: 16-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here is a more easy to read graphic designed by crookedstix. Thanks for your technical assistance Kerry!

This lists the initial serial letters for the four models that cueman and I used in the sample.

However, the 7, V, X, S, T, A suffixes are applicable to all Howatt models in the period from 1961-1966.

Now to turn our minds to the subsequent years and nail down the year when the first number became the year the bow was built.

I have noticed that the suffix P was used in 1972 so that is intriguing...more to come!

From: crookedstix
Date: 16-Mar-17




I will add that this doesn't capture all of the smallest details--for instance, the Ne Plus Ultra decal was used on bows before 1961; not sure just when that started.

However, the intention was to make something that folks could take a screen shot of, or refer back to from time to time, that will give you a pretty close idea of when your early 60's Howatt was made. Big thanks to Pete and Kenny for getting the ball rolling on this project.

From: Chas
Date: 16-Mar-17




Thanks Peter and all who had a hand in this. Great resource info!!!

From: Blackhawk
Date: 16-Mar-17




A great big ATTABOY to all of you for your efforts!

(BTW, my crystal ball sees a book in the works with charts and color pics.)

From: Firewater
Date: 16-Mar-17




Peter & Kerry - thank you for your efforts, this will be useful.

From: Buzz
Date: 16-Mar-17




Thanks guys.

From: Knifeguy
Date: 16-Mar-17




Thank you gentlemen! It will be very useful. Lance

From: Pdiddly
Date: 16-Mar-17




Don't forget cueman! Kenny Murrell did a bunch of legwork and found tons more pictures and examples of the four Howatt models than were posted by the good folks on the LW. That filled out the sample size so I had a significant number of examples to see trends. He's still digging for later years. Larry Hatfield helped immensely with his observations on building tehniques and wood types and the history and the bowyers. Can't wait to hear his observations. Peter

From: Archergreg
Date: 16-Mar-17




Well done,gathering the info and presenting it in a brilliant format, well done.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 18-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Found some Hi-Speeds with HSA in the specs. They are a 1966 bow. Here are some pics.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 18-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here are the specs...

From: Pdiddly
Date: 18-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here is the Hunter from the same year...1966, with the HHA letters.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 18-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here are the Hunter's specs

From: Pdiddly
Date: 18-Mar-17




So we can see that as of 1966 the first number in the four digit sequence is not yet the year the bow was built.

We hope to find some examples with either B, C, D after the HH or a five digit serial number like is seen from 1972 on, where the first number is the build year.

We have seen Howatts that were built in what seems to be 1970 and 1971 with the suffixes O and P after the first two letters.

We need more examples of very late 60's or very early 70's bows.

Thanks

Peter and Ken

From: Pdiddly
Date: 18-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here is what I believe is a 1971 Hunter with the HHP lettering and four digits.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 18-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here are the specs...

From: grizzly
Date: 19-Mar-17




Thanks for what you have done so far. Are you wanting the next batch of numbers? I'm in particular interest of those Super d's.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 19-Mar-17




Hi Anthony:

Yes, we would like Hunters and Hi- Speeds with suffixes that have not been listed in the chart above between 1967 and 1971.

We're sure O is 1970 and P is 1971 but need the pieces in between.

And we also would like early Super Diablos for sure.

Thanks

From: Pdiddly
Date: 19-Mar-17




We have found several more examples to fill out the present database. The serial numbers were tracked by each model and did not reset every year but continued to increase.

Shakepeare tracked total bows built per month with their system. Howatt did not.

From: crookedstix
Date: 19-Mar-17

crookedstix's embedded Photo



Here's the Hi-Speed little brother to that 1971 Hunter you posted, Peter...

From: Pdiddly
Date: 19-Mar-17




Thanks Kerry...that recurve illustrates a common problem that arose from using the "first number is the build year" rule when it did not apply.

Up until I began to decipher the numbers I had thought that Howatt built both straight stripe and curved stripe bows in 1972.

It seems they did not...

From: grizzly
Date: 19-Mar-17

grizzly's embedded Photo



Don't know that these two will help but its all i've got. HHP and I think that is a three, not an eight. Bubinga. Other one is Shedua and probably later but the tips are smaller. Maybe a 75?

From: grizzly
Date: 19-Mar-17

grizzly's embedded Photo



Here are the risers. Both have overlays and underlays.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 20-Mar-17




Just noticed that Kerry's Hi-Speed has an HH serial number rather than HS.

Also noticed the serial numbers on both both are similar.

The real mystery is the lack of numbers between from 1967 to 1970.

From: grizzly
Date: 20-Mar-17




We all know they did not quit building bows during those years. What should we be looking for? Rosewood laminated? Bubinga? Shedua? Perhaps Larry can help ?

From: Pdiddly
Date: 20-Mar-17




Laminated risers like the HHP bow you just posted...they'll look like that

From: grizzly
Date: 20-Mar-17




What if all of your assumptions are correct but the Prefix designators are not necessarily a yearly thing. Maybe you have the ranges compressed too much? We couldn't lost three-five years worth of bows. Maybe one of the ranges is larger than the others. Sorry, not trying to be a problem child, just asking the questions.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 20-Mar-17




Not a problem...those are the kind of questions that need to be considered in this sort of endeavour because proceeding with a set conclusion and then trying to make the data fit is pure folly.

What we have seen is that in the year ranges to date (61-66) we have not encountered a bow with an AMO marking so all of these suffixes did occur before 1968.

What is also seen is the progressive increase in the numbers and the change in style being related to a change in suffix letter.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 20-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here's the latest Hi-Speed data in two parts. Early bows and 1961-63 Ne Plus Ultra decals on rosewood risers.

The first bow of a given year has the year in bold face above it.

The numbers increase from 6209 to 8541 from 1960 to 1962. Sometime in late 1962 or early 63 they hit 9999 and go back to 0001 as the first 1963 bow listed is 1121 and the numbers increase again.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 20-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here are the bows from 1964-1966- laminated risers with lighter wood and the "drawn bow" decal. The numbers continue in sequence from 1963.

The only change is the last letter.

In spite of all the bow specs people provided you can see there are big gaps in the numbers but the pattern is there. We only found one 1962 Hi-Speed. There are more than that around as we found many more '62 Hunters.

So now we need to figure out the gap in the later 60's...

From: Pdiddly
Date: 20-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here are the Hunters...61-62.

There is a rosewood and walnut model that has a HC7 designator so it was one of the last built before the rosewood models came out that year and was maybe a custom.

The rest follow the same numerical pattern as the Hi-Speeds.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 20-Mar-17

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Here is the 63-66 list.

In the 61-61 list you can see where the numbers go to 0001 in late 1961.

Hopefully we can get more examples of late 60's bows.

From: grizzly
Date: 20-Mar-17




So what is a known thing about a 1967 Hunter that will positively let you identify it? Rosewood or bubinga with black glass and a serial number HH? 1487.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 20-Mar-17




I went online and found some more HHA Hunters.

Here they are with the HHT.

1965

HHT 6788 FE overlays

HHT 7156 FE overlays

1966

HHA 7656 overlays

HHA 7915 overlays

HHA 8832

HHA 9196

So up to 1500 bows under the letter A. I would like to see how many I can get as this might be when the last number becomes the year.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 20-Mar-17




Here are some HHO and HHP numbers...looks like they reset to 0000 as the last HHA is 9196.

Could the later HHA's be 1967?

The AMO designation is now on the bow. with the HHO letters. So 1968 and newer.

HH0 1647 HH0 1526 HHP 2846 HHP 2605

From: grizzly
Date: 21-Mar-17




I don't imagine production records exist anymore. Knowing how many of each type built per year would be very beneficial. I do not know what their production was capable of ? I think I saw some numbers in one of Yorktown's books. You need to have established changes or known events to place dates along the chronological path. If AMO was brought about in 1968 but was not mandatory and slow in implementation, it cant be counted on without supporting information from reliable sources. After all these years, you would think the database of available information would be larger but there is a limit to what you get off ebay completed listings and archery forum search engines.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 22-Mar-17




From looking at my data it seems, from 1961, they built 1000-1300 Hi-Speeds a year and about the same number of Hunters.

Therein lies the challenge fifty years later trying to find info on those that are left.

It may seem to some of us that these bows are common but they really are not. The all rosewood models were only made for three and a half years, so less than 6000 in total of each model.

Production seemed to increase in the 70's.

I have never sold any of my 50's and 60's Howatts and, given this above revelation, I likely will not now!

From: grizzly
Date: 22-Mar-17




and the ones I collect are LH so a little less in number. I was shooting a 1971 hunter and a 1995 purpleheart hunter tonight and it dawned on me that most bows are constructed well enough that they could last 100 years or more. The most likely ways they go bad is mishandling (breaking the tips off in a doorway,etc) or someone not knowing what dad or grandpa had and tossing them. I bet there are still a bunch sitting around in closets or hung in rafters. A lot of us bitch about the big auction site but look what it has done for resales. Many people check to see if an item is worth something now before just chucking it. This enables those of us who cant control ourselves the chance to partake of these gems.

From: kodiaklectomy
Date: 23-Mar-17




good work P-man

From: Pdiddly
Date: 23-Mar-17




Thanks...we did some calculations and believe fewer than 6000 knife edge Hunters were made and less of the Diablo's, Monterey's and Hi-Speeds.

From: WillMac
Date: 23-Mar-17




Thank you all for this work. I am saving it all on a memory stick and two other hard drives, just in case.





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