Bare shaft tuning w/ 65lbs bear takedown using widow maker 300 w/ 225 grains up front. Been slowly shortening shaft length and now have good left right. But this high nock thing is driving me crazy. Been shooting from 5 to 30 yrds and have moved the nock set from 1/8 to 3/4. Could it be limb tiller it is close to even? The shooter? What do you think?

Try adjusting your grip. I had same issue on one of my takedowns. I simply raised my grip up much closer to the shelf and that was all it took. Actually this new grip is more comfortable and seems a lot more repeatable. Worth a try anyway.

My guess is tiller. Are you shooting it 3 under? Try split and see

Don't worry about nock position,only where the bare shaft hits compared to identical fletched arrows. When you can work out to 20 yards and have the bare and fletched shaft hit in the same group your are near perfect. >>>-----> Ken

I prefer to see nock high.

DDave

5 degrees of nock high is good. If you are getting more than that you should use a double nock set if not all ready doing so. The double nock set will make sure your arrow isn't sliding down the string on relase and bouncing off the shelf/rest.

Camodave--Okiak I didn't think to add those two points. Don't know why and I have always used two tied in nock points. That don't sound clear either. Nock between the two points.>>>-----> Ken

225 grains up front and you're bare shaft is showing nock high? It's called gravity. :^)

I'm never concerned about nock high, right, low or left. As long as bare shafts impact with arrows at 20 to 25 yards all is good for me.

It probably your release or a form issue. I bet you feel like a dog chasing his tail.

It is not tiller,form,or release. As Jim said it is gravity and we both stated the same fix. It is called tuning.>>>----> Ken

I've tried "bare shafting" in the dim reaches of my personal history about archery and found it to be a waste of time and energy. Do you hunt with bare shafts? Do you compete with bare shafts? If so then fine bare shaft practice all you want. However if you use what is commonly known as an arrow then practice and use the arrow not the bare shaft when hunting or competing. Just my take on this subject. I was once asked by a bowyer/ arrow maker if I practiced "bare shafting" I answered in the affirmitive, he told me that in his view that bare shafting was useless and explained why he beleived that to be so. In a nutshell it comes down to this:

"Do you compete with bare shafts? If so then fine bare shaft practice all you want. However if you use what is commonly known as an arrow then practice and use the arrow not the bare shaft when hunting or competing."

So cyrille, I'm curious.... how do you tune your bows?

Even very quick ballpark bareshaft checks make arrow and point selection much faster. I got a new bow yesterday and had two arrows and two points and was up and shooting in a few minutes

Jim Casto and some others have it right IMO. Some nock high is normal during bare shaft tuning....I would be more concerned if it was nock low or level with that much weight up front. Sounds like you found the right shaft, with the correct point and length. Time to shoot some fletched arrows, and then some BH's

Easykeeper, where are you??? www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on "download printable version". This will help you out.

You didn't mention what your draw length is and I'm betting you might be too stiff, but that's another issue.

I used to bare shaft tune, but it caused me to doubt my sanity. It's a simple thing really and can be looked at by the 5 degrees that was mentioned. You can't judge 5 degrees when the arrow is in the target, because of holes in the target. You can have one arrow at 5 degrees and the next at 15 because it hit a hole on impact. That means you have to judge 5 degrees in .25 of a second - bow shooting at 200 FPS, target at 50 yards, OK less than .25 of a second shooting at 20. I'm not saying it can't work.

Isn't it easier to shoot a bare shaft and a fletched, slowly walk up to the target and measure the difference - it's called bare shaft planing. (change the auto correct for ing of plane).

And when it comes to nocking point it gives you a true reading IF your in the ball park. By the IF I mean if your NP is close, but high the point of the arrow is pointed too low. It will impact below the fletched shaft. You'll never figure that from bare shaft tuning. IF the NP is too low, the point of the arrow is still pointing HIGH, it will impact above the fletched shaft.

Keep in mind that the OP running into the problem of when the NP is too low it hits the shelf making it kick up and look too high.

One last problem to look at - string torque. If you torque the string and you do, the split second of release your NP is traveling forward AND down to get the torque out. That down ward travel makes the rear of the shaft hit the shelf and look like the NP is too high. One of the reasons to use 2 NP's.

Too find out if you torque the string make a string bow. PM me if you don't know how.

Bowmania

Thanks everyone for all the help.

Tradmt slightly low at 30yrds and it seems kinda look loopy as it goes down range.

Bowmania im a honest 29.5" puts me at around 68lbs. w/ the blackwidows outsert I have 250 up front. SBD string with cat whiskers.

I do shoot a fletched arrow of same length along with bare shaft to compare.

I have seen in the past with a fletched arrow that are underspined a nock high that can not be tuned out.

Bowmania would love to learn more about string torque. Never to old to learn will PM you.

I sometimes shoot a bare shaft with my buddies at 3D shoots. Boy is pi$$es em off.

your claiming nock high, but not saying if its the shaft sticking in the target or when in flight,. There is a huge difference. In flight is nock point, in the target might just be the material the target is made of. I totally disregard the angle of the arrow in the target. You should only be concerned with the arrows flight,.

Bob

Just a POV from an amateur, but in my limited experience, if you DON'T know how your bare shafts fly, you can end up off by a good #15-#20 (or more - even MUCH more) and have No Freakin' Clue. Especially if you like a lot of feather.

I started off with 2018s (per the recommendation of the bow shop) kept looking for better flight and worked up as high as 2113, 2215, maybe even 2216.. I recall finding an old 2016 around and being astonished that it flew pretty well, even with only about 1/2 of 1 feather on it.

But of course the lightbulb never went on. Now I'm wondering if I should shoot 2016 or 2013 from that bow, though Stu's calculator says I might be able to go as low as a 1916.

Now, in my defense, the first time I shot the 2113s with broadheads, I made one perfect shot at 20 yards with a field point and took 2 of the fletchings right down to the quills with a 3-blade broadhead on the next, so I pretty much called it good right there.

Of course, those arrows were fletched with 5.5" high-profile bananas...

If I had a straight shaft in any of those old sizes, I would strip the fletchings off and shoot them just to see, but I'm pretty sure that every one of them would be sideways at 15 yards. Just sayin'.

But I'll go out on a limb a little by disagreeing with 2bears and Jim Casto, and I will opine that gravity has nothing to do with the nock-high readings here. We're talking about ranges where the forward velocity is many times greater than the vertical, and with the long lever afforded by the high FOC, I don't think the arrow will remain nock-high for very long unless something other than point weight is keeping it there. (And FWIW a 500-grain point won't accelerate towards the ground any/appreciably faster than a 100, because the difference in air resistance is trivial... OTOH, on a bare shaft, the nock end should accelerate downward at virtually the same rate as the point)

aromake it both in flight and in the target.

Its a new block layered target.

With feathered shaft of same length along side it.

What do you think. Thanks.

Awfully stiff shaft for that bow. If you draw 28"s you could easily get away with a 29.5" .400 spine and 225 grains up front. I shot a 67# one and that is actually what I shot. I would think a 29.5-30" 340 would be ok with 300 upfront. .300 are crazy stiff. I mean they are made to be shot out of compounds up to 95#s. I just saw you draw 29.5. That means you are shooting 70#s for sure. Even so, go to a 340 at 30.5"s with 275 grains and I bet dollar to donuts that gets you about perfect. Shawn

Scooby thanks for your input.

I also have some Widowmaker 350 I bought for my Nortern Mist classic 65 @ 28 also. they are to stiff for it even at full length.

But they fly way weak on the recurve, way nock left. I am right handed.

Cut to center recurve longbow not.

What do you think.

"...I don't think the arrow will remain nock-high for very long unless..."

That's right. An arrow won't remain nock high, but we're talking about bare shafts. You can't expect a front loaded bare shaft to impact the target level at 20 to 30 yards. But if it impacts with arrows at that distance it just doesn't matter.

If you can get arrows and bare shafts to impact together at that distance, they're flying good and you have a really good tune, at least for 99.9% of us.

I'm in the camp that says don't pay attention to how the bare shafts are flying, pay attention to where they land relative to fletched shafts. I'm not saying it's impossible to see poor bare shaft flight in the air, I'm saying it's much, much easier to just up to a group of bare shafts in the target and compare their location to a group of fletched.

Bowmania pointed out the time issue with bare shafts in flight, you end up peeking to get a look in little time the arrow is in flight and peeking can mess up your form. It also gets harder to see what the bare shaft is doing as your tune gets better.

Besides, once you get three bare shafts and three fletched shafts grouping together at 25-30 yards the bare shafts will be flying pretty darn straight, if they weren't they would be grouping with the fletched.

I always recommend shooting three bare shafts since it is very easy to have a bare shaft that doesn't fly true. It's often a nock issue and a 90 degree turn or complete replacement of the nock usually takes care of it, but not always. The thing is, if you are only shooting one bare shaft how do you know you aren't trying to tune with an aberrant bare shaft. If you shoot three you will quickly notice if one is acting wonky because it won't group with the other bare shafts. A wonky flying bare shaft is often fine when fletched though, showing the effect of fletching and why we tune with bare shafts.

Judging the angle of the bare shafts in the target is also problematic since any target will exaggerate the angle and some targets will actually cause the angle.

Easykeeper:

"I'm in the camp that says don't pay attention to how the bare shafts are flying, pay attention to where they land relative to fletched shafts. I'm not saying it's impossible to see poor bare shaft flight in the air, I'm saying it's much, much easier to just up to a group of bare shafts in the target and compare their location to a group of fletched."

I would suggest you change camps. Arrow flight is of the utmost importance.

Daniel: If your shooting at a block target sitting on the ground, you WILL have arrows nock high, because your aiming down.,

Bob

Some excellent advice by a number of folks here. We are all learning.

GF You have really analyzed flight and gravity. One simple question. If the nock end falls as fast as the point why do arrows always come down point first? Huummm The heavier the point the faster they drop.The less distance they travel. Sometimes we get so analytical we over look the obvious. A bare shaft is the quickest way to see what your arrows are doing so you can make corrections. It is actually a big time saver and keeps you from stocking up on the wrong spine shafts. If you don't believe in it don't try it. Some of the best bowyers,tuners,and archers in the world highly recommend it. Just because you can't do it or refuse to try it,certainly don't mean it is a waste of time for ever one else. To each his own.>>>------> Ken

Aromakr, I totally agree with you, I found out that my hay bails were making the arrows show perfectly straight in, no matter what my arrow was doing in flight.

Quote:(So cyrille, I'm curious.... how do you tune your bows?)

Jim, I'm kind of interested to know that one also.

Bare shaft tuning,fixes it so a broad head starts off straight and don,t need near the feather to correct it. When you are driving down the road at 50 miles an arrow. Imagine your hand is a big broad head. Stick it out the window pointed into the wind. It is easy to keep it that way. Now angle it down a little. What happens? Angle it up. What happens. Turn it edge ways/vertical and angle it left and right. Does an arrow go 50 miles an hour? That is what a broad head tries to do. It takes big feathers working hard like a parachute to keep the nock to the rear. More drag slowing the arrow. That is why a well tuned rig can get by with smaller fletches. If you like the looks of big feathers fine they will fly more point on and still have less drag. Hope that might help some one.Guys it really is that simple.>>>-----> Ken

If you can't get the nock high out, chances are you're still weak. Weak is not only left or right, it's also nock high, just as stiff is nock low. ;)

Aromaker you just proved Easykeepers point, most targets even if brand new can and do give a false idea of what a shaft is doing. Even if you shoot one perfectly level with your bow arm they can still stick in at odd angles out of a perfectly tuned arrow. Shawn

aromaker wrote: "I would suggest you change camps. Arrow flight is of the utmost importance...."

Well, of course it is. No one even comes close to disputing that. There's a lot of ways to tune. Heck, some guys can even paper tune. I never could pull that off shooting with fingers.

I'm not changing camps any time soon. Been doing it this way for 45 years; it works quickly and efficiently for me. The only thing "this camp" is saying is, when we do it our way, we get very good arrow flight. We just go about with a different method than some others.

It works for us and it's so simple we share with others. Personally, I don't care how you get there, but everyone should at least try to have their bows tuned the best they can.

Quote from aromakr:

"I would suggest you change camps. Arrow flight is of the utmost importance."

No argument from me.

I just think it's an easier path to good arrow flight to compare bare shaft impact relative to fletched at 25-30 yards than it is to try and analyze it during the fraction of a second the arrow is in the air.

If you don't have good arrow flight there's no way bare shafts will be grouping with fletched at that distance.

So I shot my feathered and bare shafts today. My feathered shafts hit in the bullseye but my bare shafts were to the right. So do I just put feathers on them and have them go in the bull or do I cut them down? If I cut them down they will be shorter than my feathered shafts that are already flying good and in the bull.

Dr. J.R.,

You didn't say how far right the bare shafts are hitting. Generally,a bare shaft hitting to the right of arrows for a RH shooter indicates a weak shaft.

The first thing I'd do is use a lighter point. That will make the bare shafts act stiffer...

...or, you can move your side plate out a bit to make your bare shaft act stiffer.

All I'm trying to say in short is if you are going to go through the super tune stage of a trad bow you better have your form anchor and follow thru in check before you ever start bare shaft tuneing.

" If the nock end falls as fast as the point why do arrows always come down point first? Huummm The heavier the point the faster they drop.The less distance they travel. "

I'll play... LOL.

Let me at least explain the way I'm looking at it....

The nock end will accelerate downward at the same rate as the point IN A VACUUM - just as a ping-pong ball will accelerate downwards at the same rate as a bowling ball or a shot-put will... IN A VACUUM.

If you suspend an arrow at its balance point and then drop it IN A VACCUUM, it will remain horizontal all the way to the ground. If you do it outside of a vacuum, the nose will dive almost immediately because of air resistance essentially pushing "up" on the fletching. A bare shaft has much less of that going on.

If you launch an arrow perfectly straight up into the air, it will stay nose-up until it stops climbing - like a stalling airplane - then it will hang there for an instant, and begin falling nock-end first until the air resistance on the fletching destabilizes the spinning shaft - at which point the arrow will quickly switch to point down as the arrow re-establishes what my bro-in-law the pilot calls Nose Authority.

But both/all three of those arrows are falling straight down.

But an arrow cast from a bow.. let's say 1/4 of a second down-range.. That arrow is moving forward at a couple dozen times the rate at which it is falling, so the air resistance is off-set by the fletching pushing straight to the rear of the arrow. Nock high or nock low, there will still be all of that drag correcting the attitude of the arrow to line up with the line of flight. Like a weathervane.

And this is the part where I get to change my mind ;)

I set up this arrow with a goodly helping of extra point weight, so it's high FOC; the nock end has about 2.4X the length of lever vs. that of the point end.

And let's say that at 1/10th of a second down-range, the forward velocity is nearly 60X the vertical.

So if the amount of drag presented to in both directions were equal, there would be about a 140:1 advantage in the forces keeping the tail straight out back... Absolutely overwhelming, right??

But (and this is WHY I think I've changed my mind!) then you have to get real and estimate the amount of drag created by air passing front to back vs moving sideways through the air column.

Just thinkin' out loud, I guess... But at least I've convinced myself that I understand WHY you guys were right.

I SAID I was getting out on a limb, didn't I?

LOL

Somebody missed a cardinal rule of tuning with bare shafts. The bare shaft and the fletched shaft need to be the same length and have the same tip weight.

If you have a fletched in the bull and a bare right of it and YOUR RIGHT HANDED you need lighter point weight ON THE BARE AND FLETCHED.

The feathers corrected the weak spine and made it hit the bull.

" If the nock end falls as fast as the point why do arrows always come down point first? Huummm The heavier the point the faster they drop.The less distance they travel. "

If you have two arrows weighing the same one with 12% FOC and one with 20% FOC, they'll fly the same distance. The arrow doesn't know where the weight is for reason stated by GF

Actually Adcock convinced me of that before he went crooked.

I'd like to know what advocates of bare shaft TUNING do with false positive or negatives? When I say TUNING I mean judging what a bare shaft does in less than .25 seconds. AND since it's pretty common as far as I can tell is + weak and - stiff or vice versa?

Bowmania

Wow this got real technical in a hurry. I guess everybody has their own way of accomplishing what they perceive to be a successful tune. I never found a need to shoot fletched shafts during the process of bare shaft tuning until the bare shaft tuning was complete. If it was done correctly, the bare shaft should be in the bullseye and flying slightly nock left, the added fletch will then stiffen the shaft enough to correct the slightly weak arrow. I can't ever remember having to start the process over because my fletched shafts didn't hit the same as the straight flying bare shaft hitting the bull. All above assuming we are still talking about the right handed op. shooting off the shelf. Also I might add that even if you cant your bow hard during normal shooting I would suggest staying close to vertical during the bare shaft process, but that is just my personal thing. And the final test is of course the BH I choose to shoot.

now the part about tracking the nock end of the arrow in flight. This should be done in ample lighting. Your nock color should be dark if you are shooting into a white or light colored target or vice versa. If your head stays where it is supposed to during the shot then you shouldn't have a problem seeing the flight of the shaft. Sometimes it is best to have a buddy track the flight.

Anyway, works for me, might not work for you and as already mentioned above if your release or form needs work then bare shaft tuning will be an uphill battle all the way.

O.K. You guys are analyzing it way past the point of common sense. A bare shaft with a point the same diameter of the shaft,has no more wind resistance that the nock. It will still come down point first. Don't believe it, weight the inside of the shaft on the point end and even put a nock on that end too,and try it again. The arrows will then be identical on both ends. I don't shoot in a vacuum and you guys are much more analytical/smarter than I. Several other guys on this thread and I can tune a rig where bare,fletched,and broad head will be in the same group. In fact they will wreck each other. I will most likely git-er-done while you are still analyzing. False readings-don't know as I have ever had one. That is why you consult the CALCULATOR. or chart and start out fairly close. I will be happy to answer any questions,just not all at once. Happy Shooting.>>>---> Ken

Last night I was looking for some info on setting up an ILF bow. Ran into a video by Jake Kaminski. He's sponsored and shot in the Olympics. Very interesting from beginning to end. But he did tune arrows by impact or bare shaft planing. Like he had read ACS.com

Bowmania

Can't help myself, Ken! Being hyperanalytical is kind of the default setting on my brain...

Well I only use 125 grain points because all my broadheads are 125. I use a Bear elevated rest. The raw shafts shoot 4-5 inches to the right. My point is that the feathered shafts are hitting in the bull so why can't I just fletch the shafts and have them fly in the bull? I guess I wonder about the value of bareshafting

"...why can't I just fletch the shafts and have them fly in the bull? I guess I wonder about the value of bareshafting"

That's what you've been doing all along, isn't it? No reason you can't continue doing it.

The value is, you just found out your arrows are too weak. You should have a stiffer shaft. Whether you do anything about it, or not, is entirely up to you.

No way to improve on what Jim just said. It works fine your way. It is totally up to you if you want to carry tuning farther for cleaner flight. Then you won't have to make any adjustment for broad heads. If your feathers are finding the bull but your bare shafts are not. Slap a big broad head on there and see if it finds the bull or is worse than the bare shaft. Too each his own, and it is all good. Some of us are just trying to save others a problem but you do not have to travel the same road. A clean flying shaft has less flex in flight and impact. Therefore it is slightly faster and has slightly better penetration when it hits exactly point on. Notice, we seldom start the threads just try to answer folks with problems and help out fellow archers. Just keep the feathers flying.That is all that is important.>>>-----> Ken

I NEVER worry about bareshaft in high or low. (I'm never low) get your lefts and rights fixed and enjoy shooting the bow. I think youre spending entirely too much time tuning when id be shooting my bow. Fletch those arrows and shoot!! LOL

Dewayne Martin

Well your the man. I can't argue with that or the hyper Analytical minds. I am very observant. What I do is enjoy shooting while I am tuning and it only takes one session. I appreciate good clean arrow flight. I have had a successful hunting career on my limited budget. My handle is just a tiny clue. I have never ran across a bow that I could not get- bare,3 fletched,two fletched,and broad heads to land in the same group. You donate as many shafts as you like from 700 to 400 spine. I will pick the closest poundage bow off the rack tune them and then screw on broad heads. I will send you back the sheared feathers,busted nocks,ruined shafts,and all the pieces. Big broad heads will fly,smaller feathers will stabilize them (if they are tuned) The non believers just have not experienced it. >>>------> Ken

Well they are no weaker than the feathered shafts that are hitting in the bull.

I agree DeWayne. That's what I did. I fletched my too weak bare shafts and now they fly in the bull. If it ain't broke I ain't fixing it.

I used to work in quality assurance…

Had hell of a time getting to where I was comfortable with "In Spec" when I thought it could be made better than was strictly necessary.

I think Saph is In Spec, but don't take MY word for it....

Just curious.... how does the difference in POI hold up as you get farther out?

You are right it ain't broke and you don't have to fix it. That sure doesn't mean it can't be improved on a bunch. Please don't try it then we won't have any more problems to discuss and it will get very boring. You won't be able to ask why do my bare shafts hit to the right. Why did my broad head the same weight miss that deer completely or worse hit him in the gut.Why do I have to use 5 1/2" feathers

Please quit shooting bare shafts and join the rest of the non believers and say how it is just a waste of time.

Your feathers never miss the bull. BE HAPPY Keep the arrows flying.>>>------> Ken

"I agree DeWayne. That's what I did. I fletched my too weak bare shafts and now they fly in the bull. If it ain't broke I ain't fixing it."

Apparently, Dr. J.R., you didn't read what Dewayne wrote. He "fixed" his rights and lefts and then, enjoys shooting.

"I NEVER worry about bareshaft in high or low. (I'm never low) get your lefts and rights fixed and enjoy shooting the bow..."

You've found out your shafts are too weak. It's broke. You don't want to fix it? I don't care.

:^)

My feathered shafts may be too weak but they hit in the bull. I can't get any better than that. With feathers they hit in the bull. Without feathers they shoot to the right. I am not real smart but imma just put feathers on em and have them all in the bull. What's not to like?

A number of people have told you a number of times. If you can't grasp it DON'T WORRY BE HAPPY. Just don't shoot any more bare shafts. >-----> Ken

Saph -

I think the point is that if you have the correct shaft, BOTH the bare AND the fletched will land in the bull... at about any distance.

If the shafts are weak, they're weak. That means the feathers are only getting them into the bull by redirecting the shaft, rather than merely stabilizing the flight of an arrow that will fly true to the mark without them.

And that redirecting will scrub off speed and delay the arrow in reaching settled flight, so that will impair your velocity and impede penetration on game. If you are OK with that, then you're done.

Ok so I cut off the bear shaft and it hits in the bull now. Thanks guys.,

shouldn't the bare shaft show slightly weak. so when you fletch them the fletching actually stiffens the arrow putting it in the bulls eye. it is arrow dynamics, add weight to the front weakens the spine add weight to the rear and it stiffens the spine

N=Idaho, In my opinion, you don't know it's weak until you find out if a bare shaft impacts with a fletched shaft.

www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version' AGAIN.

"shouldn't the bare shaft show slightly weak. so when you fletch them the fletching actually stiffens the arrow putting it in the bulls eye..."

Ideally, yes, but impacting together is plenty close enough for 99.9% of us. :^)

Let's keep the arrogance at bay. If someone doesn't want to bare shaft, and can get good arrow flight, then that is where the discussion should end...especially if they are adamant in their belief. I can see a little bit of that typical condescension coming with every ensuing post. "You don't do it like me, so you must be wrong and can't have good flight..and I don't care." Very nice.

By the way, I haven't bare shafted to tune in over half a century, and I'll challenge anyone to prove my arrow flight isn't near perfect. And you guys that are bare shafting with canted bows, how do you know what's a vertical and what's not? Seems to me the way you discover a nock high is with a vertical bow. I didn't hear that mentioned, unless I missed it. Or is that something you don't worry about?

I shoot with a slight cant to my bow and don't change anything when I tune. Changing the way I shoot to get the bow perfectly vertical changes my form, increases tension in my bow forearm and might leave me with less than the clean tune I'm looking for.

In my opinion, tune the way you shoot.

You're right though, tuning with a cant means you have to keep it in mind when you are comparing your groups of bare shafts and fletched. The coordinate frame has been rotated from perfectly vertical and horizontal by the degree of the cant. It sounds more complicated than it is and the effects on how the archer appraises what is going on is minimal. I don't really pay attention to it myself since it's such a small deviation.

Lets face, like Jim said, close is close enough for just about anybody.

If I come across as putting down people who don't tune like I do I apologize, that is not my intent. I just find bare shaft tuning to be a very simple and effective way to maximize the performance of an archers gear and enjoy sharing what little knowledge and expertise I have.

Ok you guys were right. My feathered shaft is 1 fps slower than my bare shaft in the chrono.

"Ok so I cut off the bear shaft and it hits in the bull now."

Must be the lock o' the Irish falling on you today!

PS - I didn't make a big fuss over the fact that the improvement/impairment that you gain (or suffer) would be pretty minor.... because I figured you already knew that.

Let us know how the groups and POI hold up when you get to broadhead testing....

Easykeeper answered the cant question. If you cant, say 20° the up and down--left and right readings will be canting basically the same amount on the target.>>>----> Ken

Mr. Stout, With all due respect are you not doing the same thing in your challenge? That kind of says bare shaft is not necessary, I don't do it. Also that it can't be done with a canted bow. That has now been addressed by two of us. Please read all of my posts again. I merely answer Questions and in no way say that is the only way or do it my way. In fact I said, Don't worry be happy. There are many ways to tune but bare shaft does show visible results. I feel it is the easiest to instruct. When they have had your years of experience they can probably select the right components make minor corrections on the fly and be done. Until then I believe it to be helpful for them. It is all good and not the slightest bit of animosity or arrogance intended. Ever one just keep the arrows flying.>>>-----> Ken

Babysaph, I knew you could do it. I had confidence that with enough patience and challenges you would do it. Perhaps we have gained another convert.>>>---->Ken,Just a fellow archer.>>>---->

Hey, don't take all the credit. Sometimes it takes a little prodding from a guy that's know him over 35 years. lol lol

Jim I did mean you to. In fact we sorta ganged up on the poor guy.>>>-----> Ken

I did do it. Thanks guys. I am a convert. And while I like to rib you guys about it I know that having an arrow with no feathers on it hitting the mark means they will be better with feathers. I may just keep a bareshaft in my bow quiver for a while.

I do have a lil knock high though. Is that just my release?

A little nock high is okay. As long as the bare shafts and arrows impact the same place, or if the bare shafts shoot just a "tad" weak, you're okay (for a hunter). Now these really good target guys? They'll make sure they get good flight waaaaaay out there. :^)

Imma shoot a 3d shoot today with my bare shaft.

Every thread on every forum ends up the same....

I'm sure someone has suggested you use a nocking point on top AND below your arrow nick. I had the exact same problem one time. That cured it. I had the right spine, I shoot 3 under, and I finally put on 2 nocking points and Shazam!!! Fixed it

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