A lot of interest in Fixed crawl lately and I wanted to float a concept that took me a while to figure out.
The end of your arrow trajectory just before your point on has a quick descent. Your goal is to get the flattest part of your trajectory in the ranges you need the most.
The closer your point on (without a crawl) is, the smaller your crawl will be. I got my point on down to 25 yards at one point. This is actually BAD for fixed crawl unless you are never going to shoot past 18-20 yards due to the arrow trajectory. On the other hand, GAPPING with that point on range is very easy but you have to hold over for 30-35 yards...I don't like it.
If I get my point on in the 30-35 yard range, I will have the flattest part of my trajectory in the most useful hunting ranges while still only needing a manageable crawl (less than the width of my index finger). And I really like having an easy 30- 35 yard shot.
"Your goal is to get the flattest part of your trajectory in the ranges you need the most."
Actually, my goal with fixed crawl is to get my point-on distance where I expect most of my hunting shots.
The flattest part of your trajectory is always going to be a hair short of halfway to your point-on. Unfortunately, that's also where your largest gaps will end up. You get the flat trajectory (with respect to gap at the target), but the gap is large. There's a trade off.
This is the trajectory of my NFAA field setup (don't have one handy for my hunting bows right now). My point-on is 48 yards. The gaps at 20, 25, and 30 yards are 19", 20", and 19" at the target. If what I want to hit is between 20 and 30 yards all I have to do is hold 19" low and I'll be good to go. The bad part is finding that 19" in a hunting situation. That's why I don't use this aiming system for hunting; I use fixed crawl (or gap at the bow, which is another subject entirely).
Ok i dont really get everything you said but i agree a point on strategy is critical. I think knock height and tiller are the big factors for target shooting. That and speed obviously. A flat trajectory that falls off at the end of max distance is easier to gap than a hilly trajectory if you see my point.
JRW, "The flattest part of your trajectory is always going to be a hair short of halfway to your point-on. "
Not when your point on is less than 30 yards and is achieved by a high anchor. That's the whole point of the high anchor. It aims the arrow down instead of lobbing it up.
And arch is still an arch, no matter where you anchor. The arrow will still rise above your line of sight.
Last year I shot the unmarked bunny targets in FITA field (5-10m unmarked) with a 15m point on. Reason being it put the flat part of my trajectory at 7.5m, which was the middle of the range of that target. My gap for entire 5-10m range was the same, which eliminated having to estimate the distance.
It works with a 15m (about 16.5 yard) point-on just fine.
It does aim the arrow down which makes your highest point just a little under half way to your target. If you change the point on distance it will change the highest point.
I think the main reason you guys are talking past each other is the difference between setting your PO at 35 or 48 yards. And that talk about face walking out to 60 lost me also, if this is a hunting thread.
You can't lay down a law for this if you don't have the same objectives. But lot of guys might be happy enough with sets that got easier out to about 35 yards. That way your easiest aiming concept happens on your longest shots, and that would balance nicely with your decreasing accuracy. Certainly recent issues have convinced me that most people have no business shooting much beyond 20 yards anyway, if the best of the best are goofing shots into a 6 inch group at that range. As the kid said about the 4" spot at 20 yds side shoot when nobody could hit it at a major tourney "move it up".
Omg. Too complicated for me. I guess that's why I'm not a great shot. I don't understand all that stuff. Most of my deer are less than 20 yards . And I can just look at the spot I want to hit and am good. But I do realize to be a great shot with a trad bow you need to have some sort of aiming system
Take a good look at JRW's chart. With those gaps, he can hold on the same spot from 13 yards to about 38 yards and stay within a 6" target. He could pick a spot on a Deer leg for instance and get a good hit.
But then he quickly falls off between 40 and 48 yards.
But if his point on was 25 yards, he would have the drastic fall off happening just before 25 yards. That would be less advantageous for hunting.
"But if his point on was 25 yards, he would have the drastic fall off happening just before 25 yards. That would be less advantageous for hunting."
But the "drastic fall-off" wouldn't be very "drastic".
I hunt with about a 20 yard point on. When shooting at deer I can use the same sight picture to a bit beyond 20 yards. The gaps at shorter ranges are small so the "drastic fall-off" before point on isn't very drastic at all.
The reason that I don't use a 25 yard point on is that my gaps at closer distances would be larger and the deer are usually closer.
How high is your anchor and how fast are your arrows? What pattern do you see if you aim at a 1" dot and do a walk back? I can imagine if you have a very fast rig and a high anchor, you could get a flat enough trajectory.
And what if you shoot the same sight picture at 25 yard? It sounds to me like your point on is actually 25+ yards and you are holding under out to 20 which is good strategy. But if you are able to use the same sight picture out to a bit past 20, then 20 wouldn't be your point on.
When I say 'drastic falloff' I mean missing the kill zone. When I am dialed in with a short point on and then move back just a few yards, I can see the arrow fall right before the target. I've never set up closer than a 25 point on though.
And when I say point on, I mean setting the arrow tip right at the bottom of a small dot and being within a few inches.
I use what I would call a 6 Oclock hold. I don't have exact measurements but at 10 yards there's a little bit of a gap (a few inches). At about 20 I'm dead on. By 22 or so yards or so I'll hit a little low.
Using same sight picture from really close out to a little over 20 yards will keep me well within the kill zone on a deer. To hit a walnut, I have to manage a small gap.
The disadvantage is that by the time I get to 30 yards I have to significantly hold over. The setup is for hunting though and I've never taken a 30 yard shot at a deer.
I think 17 yards has been the magic number for me. This year's buck was standing at about 15 yards...It was about 16 yards to where the arrow was stuck in the ground.
Before going to a fixed crawl I was shooting over the backs of deer on a regular basis...almost always at 17 yards. LOL
I could hit target on the range (or even the occasional squirrel) but when a deer would show, I just couldn't get myself to put the tip of the arrow in the dirt.
A fixed crawl was the answer for me. At 17 yards (give or take a few yards), I just point at what I want to hit.
For my hunting I don't care much about what happens at 30 or 40 yards. If I were setting up to hunt more open country I might have to do things differently but, for here and now, this is working for me.
The above group was a crawl 1/2 the width of my index finger (I use my fingers as a walking guide).
So this is a 30 yard group no crawl. NO I can't do it every time, but I just did. 30 yards is an easy shot if you do everything right and you are set up for it. This is the reason I decided to learn how to aim.
Now for some perspective on the 'drastic fall off''....this 30 yards WITH my fixed crawl. About a foot low. That's why I say it is hazardous to use it near the end of your trajectory.
NOW..... this a lower anchor with a longer crawl (the width of my index finger). Same basic results as the higher anchor smaller crawl from 15, 20 and 25
Ok... NOW I anchoring even lower for a 40 yard point on. Bigger crawl...1 1/2 'fingers'. Now my 20 yard and 30 yard are close together (I broke my 3rd arrow but 15 works too).
The top of my bottom tied on nock point (where the arrow sits) is 1/2".
Crawls are 3/8" with a 30 yard point on anchor middle finger to corner of mouth, 3/4" crawl with 35-ish yard point on anchor with index finger to corner of mouth, 1 1/4" crawl with 40 yard point on anchor with thumb under jaw/middle finger under chin
...some kind of foam in a box? How tall is it? would have been useful if your target was marked off in inches from dot... btw.
Good intellectual exercise...
My impression is that your THREE anchor points are an attempt to eliminate "instinctive" (i.e. visually learned) from your method. By contrast, I use only one anchor point (53# & 60# fast longbows) but I don't know who's more accurate at, say, 15 yards ir 23 yards or 37 yards (at my club range I mostly shoot a random walk-up)
I'm 30yd point on but for indoor (target bow) I'm point on @ 20 since trajectory is irrelevant there.
I want to see perfect broadhead holes in paper at 12 feet and 12 yards. I think that's probably possible. Not as simple as split or 3 under touching the nock.
AND here's the kicker, I want to see chrono speeds with the crawl vs speeds touching the nock. There has to be some loss of energy, maybe small (?) but it has to loose some.
Do you mean shooting through paper as in paper tuning but fletched with broad heads? I'll try it. Should be interesting. I check Bareshaft with crawls. The cheat is to tune slightly weak on the nock as it stiffens a little as you crawl.
If you keep your crawls small, flight and noise aren't usually a big deal. But I would be interested in the broadness test myself.
As for losing energy, it shortens your draw a little
JK, That's a BLOB target. Very nice. I like to practice on a blank target as it's too easy to start referencing marks other than your intended point of aim. Even with that one I will end up using the bottom of the target sometimes for larger gaps.
First one the matter of speed: I haven’t shot my hunting bows through a chronograph in several years. But I tested the speed loss with various crawls on my target bows a few years ago and saw less than 5 fps (maybe only 2 or 3) going from no crawl to my maximum crawl at the time of 1.08” below the nock. My 20- yard fixed crawl on my hunting setups is about 3/8” (I don’t have my notes handy to know the exact measurement on a set of calipers). Speed loss is really not an issue. I can’t fathom a situation where 2-3 fps would make any difference in the humane killing of an animal. If it did, I probably wouldn’t shoot a recurve in the first place.
With respect to tuning: why would this even be a question? If someone can tune with their fingers touching the nock they can tune with their fingers a little below the nock. You’re still tuning for perfect arrow flight with your fingers in a single position on the bowstring. Tuning is tuning. Remember, this is a fixed crawl, not full string walking with various crawls.
Jason, if I look at those two paragraphs with my questions in mind. First of all, I don't think tuning is tuning - If your fingers are right behind the nock you have (if you don't torque the string) a nock that travels in a straight line after the release.
You nock 1.08 inches below the regular nock. You can't tell me that nock is moving as straight as the nock with all the force right behind it. Without tiller adjustment your nock has to travel up as it goes forward. That may account for the loss in speed. I agree that 3 or 4 feet per second isn't much - I cost myself that much with silencers.
I hope you kick some butt in your new endeavor, but unfortunately I know you'll be too polite.
I'm a pragmatist. To me, tuning is basically two things: spine and nock height (left/right and up/down). If you tune for perfect flight with no crawl, your flight will be less than perfect at, say 1.08" below the nock. But that's not what we're talking about. With a fixed crawl you simply tune for perfect arrow flight at that one, fixed crawl. Believe me, it's the same as any other tuning.
