Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Slaughter at the bridge: Tollense River

Messages posted to thread:
Buzz 26-Mar-16
Steve Milbocker 26-Mar-16
Steve Milbocker 26-Mar-16
Pdiddly 26-Mar-16
George D. Stout 26-Mar-16
Puckaway 26-Mar-16
Bowmania 26-Mar-16
Bob Rowlands 26-Mar-16
bomack 26-Mar-16
robert carter 26-Mar-16
bwd 26-Mar-16
Arcus Pater 26-Mar-16
grizzly 26-Mar-16
Bob Rowlands 26-Mar-16
Phil 26-Mar-16
larryhatfield 26-Mar-16
bradsmith2010santafe 26-Mar-16
Phil 26-Mar-16
Steve Milbocker 26-Mar-16
Bob Rowlands 26-Mar-16
grizzly 26-Mar-16
Wudstix 26-Mar-16
Zman 27-Mar-16
Trillium 27-Mar-16
Bob Rowlands 27-Mar-16
RonL 27-Mar-16
bodymanbowyer 27-Mar-16
Trillium 28-Mar-16
crookedstix 28-Mar-16
Phil 28-Mar-16
Lowcountry 28-Mar-16
Bob Rowlands 28-Mar-16
Bob W. 28-Mar-16
From: Buzz
Date: 26-Mar-16

Buzz's embedded Photo



Interesting article.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle

From: Steve Milbocker
Date: 26-Mar-16

Steve Milbocker's embedded Photo



Looks like a Hi-Lo point. 8-10000 years old according to a friend of mine that is an expert on the subject of points. What a spectacular find! Here's one I found last summer.

From: Steve Milbocker
Date: 26-Mar-16




Maybe I'm wrong on the identity of the point. Their time line wouldn't fit that point. Cool article.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 26-Mar-16




That's gotta hurt!

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 26-Mar-16




Even in the best case scenario, and with all the modern technology, we still aren't sure how old man is or how long he has roamed the earth with a projectile weapon. Scientists continue to have questions about our predecessors. They are making headway, but I suspect some mysteries will remain mysteries. Part of me wants to know, and another part likes the mysterious part. ))

From: Puckaway
Date: 26-Mar-16




Very cool article. I'm going to follow this one in the future.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 26-Mar-16




Non-vented, COC, two blade. There's nothing new in archery.

Bowmania

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 26-Mar-16




Thanks for the link Buzz. Hopefully there will be more learned from this combat site.

From: bomack Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 26-Mar-16




Great subject. Had to be strong, resourceful people. Amazing, really.

From: robert carter
Date: 26-Mar-16




This was a good read. History is very interesting to me. I have a bunch of artifacts I have found through the years. Its always great when you pick one up to look around and wonder if the arrowhead ended a life,fed a family or like me...just missed.lol.RC

From: bwd
Date: 26-Mar-16




I would venture to say not many 'just missed' broadheads are going to be found behind you RC. Foam maybe, but put a little hair around it, it's gonna get poked.

From: Arcus Pater
Date: 26-Mar-16




Had that been a single bevel head...........

Could not resist. Interesting article, thanks for sharing

From: grizzly
Date: 26-Mar-16




Not surprising that people been killing each other forever and will continue to do so. Long as there are two left, one will need an army. Nature will cleanse the earth some day and maybe some advanced civilization will find some of our old bows.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 26-Mar-16




Good point grizz. Hard enough for man and wife to get along over a lifetime.

From: Phil
Date: 26-Mar-16




Absolutely fantastic link Buzz ... thanks for bringing it to our attention.

OK ....lets do a bit of educated guessing and informed speculation. For you guys that have hunted with "primitive" stone arrow points, what sort of bow draw weights and arrows speeds would you reasonably expect to have been used that would result in the penetration seen in the excavations?

I don't know anything about hunting, but I do know about Osteological strength and the mechanical characteristics of human bone. To get that quality of penetration through Cortical bone without peripheral damage around the impact site demonstrates (In my opinion) a very efficient, sharp arrow head traveling very very fast, What say you????

From: larryhatfield
Date: 26-Mar-16




The bronze points were impressive, both in shape and sharpness. I would imagine that with a force of that size and the mix of weapons involved, that the ranges for the bow were probably almost at arms length. To shoot at longer ranges with people on your side involved with clubs and spears would have caused losses to your side. That makes the speed thing sort of moot, I would think.

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 26-Mar-16




thanks for the info

From: Phil
Date: 26-Mar-16

Phil's embedded Photo



OK ....this is the posterior aspect of the head of the right Humerus. The arrow point has entered the humerus from the rear into the Epiphyseal / Diaphysial junction. In other words ... this man was hit from behind ... or .. he was hit with his right arm fully raised in the air as this is the only movement when the posterior of the bone becomes the anterior and visa versa

From: Steve Milbocker
Date: 26-Mar-16

Steve Milbocker's embedded Photo



This was a bison bone I think was posted not long ago. Amazing what a primitive bow and stone point are capable of.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 26-Mar-16




A spear is extremely lethal. So is a club a sword a knife and dang near anything if swung with sufficient force. Police crime annals are filled with many objects used as weapons.

The bow and arrow is a very lethal weapon. The bow adds range over hand wielded weapons. The nuclear ballistic missle extends range to intercontinental level. I believe a few boops and beeps will have a number of them directed at North Koreas god if he doesn't behave himself.

From: grizzly
Date: 26-Mar-16




I would think the bows would be used first, as soon as the enemy was in the killbox. Then swoop in with the hand tools when they were in disarray. Even selfbows have some range. Runner, you're funny!

From: Wudstix Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 26-Mar-16




Early battles or drive by shootings were pretty brutal.

From: Zman Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 27-Mar-16




Very cool article.

From: Trillium
Date: 27-Mar-16




Mr. Stout: There is pretty good evidence that the bow and arrow have been around for about 10,000 years; in Europe, where this conflict took place, evidence suggests a timetable of around 8,000-10,000 years.

There seem to be two prevailing explanations for the conflict at the Tollense . One is that it was fixed battle between to large groups -- at least several hundred on each side, perhaps for control of a well known choke-point of travel from north to south. Another explanation, the one that seems more convincing, is that it was an ambush for a caravan of metal traders (and their hanger-on folks -- evidence by the older men, women and child remains). At the time, the Bronze age, tin was extremely valuable, even more so than gold. The scenario is that a large group of bronze-poor raiders, possibly from the north, attacked the caravan with flint arrows and hand weapons. The bronze points and weapons suggest a professional class of warriors, possibly the armed guards for the caravan. It is notable that the isotope analysis show that many/most of the victims came from several hundreds of kilometers south of the region, again suggesting that the victims were not local to the area.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 27-Mar-16




Trillium, thanks for that. Battlegrounds always give me pause for reflection. Only men involved in pitched battle can begin to understand what it is like.

As an aside here, it is too bad our earliest ancestors hadn't invented a way to record these events, aside from word of mouth. He have to interpret what we find at the archaeological site. In a way, that is more accurate then ten witnesses describing an accident for police. Word of mouth f many accounts is useful as a generalization of events. People say what they think they saw, and that is easily skewed by their beliefs. Of course this includes myself as I have given account to police myself at more than one accident.

From: RonL
Date: 27-Mar-16




I am a history nut, so thank you very much for the post.

RonL

From: bodymanbowyer
Date: 27-Mar-16




Interesting thread. JF

From: Trillium
Date: 28-Mar-16




These are two excellent articles on the event:

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/07/tollense-battle.html

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal- bronze-age-battle

From: crookedstix
Date: 28-Mar-16




Clearly these forensic anthropologists didn't consult Frisky.

We have it on his authority that 99% of selfbows break on the first shot...so even if these guys were shooting at point-blank range, we know that only one of every hundred archers could have succeeded. Thus, based on the number of arrow fatalities at the site, we can extrapolate that each army consisted of over 100,000 archers, and that to arm them all with crappy bows and crappy non-carbon arrows would have pretty much de-forested most of Europe.

Actually, thanks for the great link, Buzz! My hunch is that the archers stood just out of the range of the guys with spears, and the guys with spears stood just out of the range of those guys with the croquet mallets. The history of warfare is pretty much a constant trend of increasing the range of your weaponry.

From: Phil
Date: 28-Mar-16




Terrific comments Trillium thank you.

Fascinating stuff.

From: Lowcountry
Date: 28-Mar-16




Pretty awesome articles. Thanks for posting.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 28-Mar-16




Thanks Trillium!

From: Bob W.
Date: 28-Mar-16




I think crookedstick nailed it! Excellent thread Buzz!





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