Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Border vs Morrison

Messages posted to thread:
coachA 06-Mar-16
George D. Stout 06-Mar-16
DanaC 06-Mar-16
Orion 06-Mar-16
4blade 07-Mar-16
Bill C 07-Mar-16
wmb238 07-Mar-16
Mike Etzler 07-Mar-16
Cameron Root 07-Mar-16
coachA 07-Mar-16
Sixby 08-Mar-16
Bowmania 08-Mar-16
Bowbldr 08-Mar-16
non-typical 08-Mar-16
Jason D 08-Mar-16
Wojo14 08-Jan-18
Bowmania 08-Jan-18
Wojo14 08-Jan-18
TradFan 08-Jan-18
TradFan 08-Jan-18
TradFan 08-Jan-18
zetabow 09-Jan-18
Jim Casto Jr 09-Jan-18
cch 09-Jan-18
Redbow 09-Jan-18
Wojo14 09-Jan-18
andytradbowhunter 09-Jan-18
Oak 09-Jan-18
Wojo14 09-Jan-18
Oak 10-Jan-18
Bowmania 10-Jan-18
Bowmania 10-Jan-18
Bowmania 10-Jan-18
Wojo14 10-Jan-18
cch 10-Jan-18
Bowmania 10-Jan-18
cch 10-Jan-18
Jim Casto Jr 12-Jan-18
Cowboy 13-Jan-18
Beendare 13-Jan-18
zetabow 13-Jan-18
cch 13-Jan-18
Jinkster 13-Jan-18
Jim Casto Jr 13-Jan-18
K Cummings 13-Jan-18
Wojo14 13-Jan-18
zetabow 13-Jan-18
swampwalker 15-Jan-18
jjs 15-Jan-18
swampwalker 15-Jan-18
savage1 15-Jan-18
HedgeHunter 16-Jan-18
Jinkster 16-Jan-18
cch 16-Jan-18
Rick Barbee 16-Jan-18
Jim Casto Jr 16-Jan-18
cch 16-Jan-18
cch 16-Jan-18
Jim Casto Jr 16-Jan-18
Styksnstryngs 16-Jan-18
zetabow 16-Jan-18
zetabow 17-Jan-18
edcor 17-Jan-18
edcor 17-Jan-18
edcor 17-Jan-18
zetabow 17-Jan-18
K Cummings 17-Jan-18
cch 17-Jan-18
K Cummings 17-Jan-18
zetabow 17-Jan-18
HedgeHunter 17-Jan-18
cch 17-Jan-18
K Cummings 17-Jan-18
Wojo14 17-Jan-18
Deadringer 17-Jan-18
cch 17-Jan-18
4nolz@work 17-Jan-18
Jim Casto Jr 17-Jan-18
zetabow 17-Jan-18
4nolz@work 17-Jan-18
HedgeHunter 17-Jan-18
zetabow 17-Jan-18
HedgeHunter 17-Jan-18
Wojo14 17-Jan-18
Penny Banks 17-Jan-18
K Cummings 17-Jan-18
cch 17-Jan-18
4nolz@work 17-Jan-18
Bowmania 17-Jan-18
HedgeHunter 17-Jan-18
K Cummings 17-Jan-18
cch 17-Jan-18
Bowmania 17-Jan-18
Wojo14 17-Jan-18
HedgeHunter 18-Jan-18
4nolz@work 18-Jan-18
Anthrope 18-Jan-18
Bowmania 18-Jan-18
kenn1320 18-Jan-18
Rick Barbee 18-Jan-18
swampwalker 18-Jan-18
4nolz@work 18-Jan-18
Demmer 18-Jan-18
Demmer 18-Jan-18
Backcountry 18-Jan-18
Backcountry 18-Jan-18
Backcountry 18-Jan-18
K Cummings 18-Jan-18
zetabow 18-Jan-18
Penny Banks 18-Jan-18
swampwalker 18-Jan-18
swampwalker 18-Jan-18
zetabow 19-Jan-18
edcor 19-Jan-18
edcor 19-Jan-18
Sixby 19-Jan-18
edcor 19-Jan-18
zetabow 19-Jan-18
K Cummings 19-Jan-18
swampwalker 19-Jan-18
HedgeHunter 19-Jan-18
From: coachA
Date: 06-Mar-16




I have been looking at the different ILF set ups and Border Archery is always in the mix. Is there anyone out there that has set a test and compared them. They both look sort of similar but I was hoping someone might have some some actual statistics to compare. I also know that the Dryad bow are awesome as well. I actually owned one a few years back and hate that I got rid of it.

From: George D. Stout Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Mar-16




What are you looking for exactly? There are lots of high performance ILF limbs available. And actually cost is not an indicator of quality.

From: DanaC
Date: 06-Mar-16




I'd own a couple of each if my budget allowed. Border has made limbs for Morrison, and both are dedicated to producing top quality bows.

If you want a recommendation, it's just this - shoot both, and buy the one that 'feels' best.

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 06-Mar-16




Last I checked Morrison's website, he was offering two styles of Border limbs and two of his own in ILF. I expect they share technology. Not much difference between them as far as I can see. If it were me, I'd go with a somewhat less radical Morrison style.

From: 4blade
Date: 07-Mar-16




I've owned Bob's Max 1's and have a set of Hex6 BB2. For me, the max 1 is more stable and more accurate. But the hex 6 are a little faster. I'd sell you the Borders if you are interested.

From: Bill C
Date: 07-Mar-16




Have owned the Border kimbs (6,5) and Morison Max2. Love the Morrisons. Quieter, easier to tune and seem more stable. Am waiting on a second set for myself. My wife shoots Morrison super shorts on her DAS riser and won't let me touch them..

From: wmb238
Date: 07-Mar-16




I really like my Morrison riser with Hoyt carbon/foam limbs.

From: Mike Etzler
Date: 07-Mar-16




The only "test" there is is "how it shoots for me". Other than that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

From: Cameron Root
Date: 07-Mar-16




No comparison. But I do have some Morrison carbon foam longbow limbs that are outstanding not forsale. I also have Dryad top of the line recurve and longbow limbs that are forsale lol.

From: coachA
Date: 07-Mar-16




I started the same topic on other forums as well and I seem to be getting the same answers. I do truly appreciate it.

From: Sixby
Date: 08-Mar-16




When both limbs are super fast I will definitely take the most stable limb. Morrison would be my choice. I know Bob would not compromise good limb design for speed and his limb will be both stable and fast. God bless, Steve

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Mar-16




Have not played with the Morrisons, but I will say that the let off on Hex 7.5's makes back tension a breeze. Something I always struggle with. I never heard of a limb gaining 2.4 pound between 24 and 28 inches. That's usually a gain for one inch between 27 and 28.

Would I advise you to get Borders because they're smooth, no. They're 'letoff smooth'. In a ballpark by them selves.

BTW, those stats are from Sid on TT.

Bowmania

From: Bowbldr
Date: 08-Mar-16




Bill C. they are in the works so it won't be long and you are on top of the list. Biggest thing for us right is hitting correct pounds, once we have more data on file we will hit pounds easier.

Bob

From: non-typical
Date: 08-Mar-16




I own Bob's 19" wood ILF with med max 1 and at my 29" draw they are smooth and quiet. I have shot a few of Sid's bows and did not like the noise and shock. Bob definitely as always does his homework.

From: Jason D
Date: 08-Mar-16




Have you considered the Zipper 'Z4' limbs...?

J.

From: Wojo14
Date: 08-Jan-18




I am bringing this thread back up. I found it while doing a search on Morrison. I am looking to try out a new bow this year. Something way different than I am used to. I have been getting into recurves a bit and would like to get my hands on an ILF rig that is smooth, relatively fast, but QUIET!. Speed is important, but I am a hunter first. I am looking into Border, Morison and Zipper. Also a riser. I am not against metal risers. However, I like a good med grip and a radiused shelf. I also want to mention I want a 58” overall. I draw 27.75” on recurves....I should mention, I have tried a Tradtech black onyx with trad tech black max limbs. I was not all that impressed. Was a nice bow, but not enough for me to buy... Thanks in advanced. ~Wojo

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Jan-18




I have now played with the Max 4's, don't know about the Max 5's.

7.5's and 4's were both meds. and I have a 29 inch draw. When it comes to the feeling at 29 inches Border wins. The 4's were a little stacky right at the end. Compared to a conventional limb you wouldn't notice it. They'd be the smoothest limb you ever shot.

My buddy who owns them also has 29 inch draw and he went with longs. Probably lost that stacky bump in the end. You could hardly call it stack.

I don't have the FPS in front of me, but it was probably a draw. I think the Border was 2 fps faster on ave.

One thing I will say is that I had trouble tuning the 7.5's with a strike plate and rest. Part of the problem is me - I can only shoot about 10 shots at a session. Season was drawing near, so I put on a button and ZT flipper rest and tuned it up with 6 shots.

My buddy's 4's had a solid rest and button. Probably what I'll use next year.

I've hunted with a longbow for the last 20 years. The problem I had with the Hexes you'd also have with the Morrisons. If you have to walk through think brush, those big hooks will snag more brush than a brush hog can cut.

I really think the limbs are probably a horse apiece. I would not say that about the risers.

Bowmania

From: Wojo14
Date: 08-Jan-18




Bowmania, When you say 4’s you are referring to the Morrison limbs? Fortunately, most of my hunting is tree stand or blind. However, I plan on some back country stuff this year and might get into some spot and stock. ~Wojo

From: TradFan
Date: 08-Jan-18

TradFan's embedded Photo



My Morrison. 19"

From: TradFan
Date: 08-Jan-18

TradFan's embedded Photo



My Borders. 19" and 21"

From: TradFan
Date: 08-Jan-18




I had CV-H, Hex 6.7, Hex 6.5. I like CV-H better.

From: zetabow
Date: 09-Jan-18




I had reliability issues with hex/cv limbs (3 sets failed), none lasted more than 12 months. Been shooting a set of K7's last 2 years, not as fast as Borders but reliable and accurate.

High performance, you're pushing boundaries, so something to consider, Border is faster than anything out there but speed is one of several qualities needed for a limb. I'm not saying don't buy Border, just consider all the pro's and cons.

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 09-Jan-18




Can't help much...never shot either, but there's some recent anecdotal accounts and a Youtube video that indicate the new Max 5 limbs exhibit much less limb flutter, post-shot than the Borders.

From: cch
Date: 09-Jan-18




I have shot Border Hex 6,7 and 7.5s and a set of Max 4s.

The Borders are smoother and faster. They have all been between 47 and 48# @29". I shoot 30" .400 Axis with 200 gr tips out of the 6s. The 7's were right on the edge of .400 and .340 Axis with same 200 gr tip. I could get decent accuracy with a little tweak in tuning. The 7.5s I have to shoot .340 with 200 gr tips and are about perfect. I have had no issues with any of them since I started shooting them in 2012. Once you figure out how to tune them they are great. Border is a great company to deal with also. No issues with overseas shipping.

The Max 4s I set up for a friend of mine this last weekend same weight as above and had to shoot a .500 gr Axis with 200 gr tip to get close to tune. They are a very quiet limb with the mountain muffle string and no noticeable vibration on release. They do feel more like a conventional limb on the draw but that could be that I am use to the 7.5s. No stacking but just a steady weight gain. I like that they allow a shorter limb to be used if you want. They said I could draw the medium limbs to 29" on a 15" riser.

Can't go wrong with either in my opinion. Both great companies to deal with.

From: Redbow
Date: 09-Jan-18




Lol Border and Morrison "SHARE" technology lol lol lol someone here had better tell Border that they are in the sharing bussiness.....................because i will bet anyone $100 dollars that Border has never said to any archery company "sure go ahead and ride on the back of all the development work we do.

Wake the heck up!!!!!

From: Wojo14
Date: 09-Jan-18




AS far as quiet, is the Morrison 4 and 5’s quiet? I come from a longbow background, and my bows a whisper quiet. I emailed brandon this morning. I might try and go out and try out his stuff latter this week. He is not too far from me.

From: andytradbowhunter
Date: 09-Jan-18




Timber Ghost makes Carbon supper hooks also.

From: Oak
Date: 09-Jan-18




I have never been more pleasantly surprised by a setup than my Morrison 19" Phoenix riser (bought it a year ago), and then for Christmas I got a set of Max5 shorts. It was a BIG purchase for me, I buy a new bow every 10 years whether I need it or not. When that moment of truth came, you know the one where you talked your wife into spending a lot of $ on your hobby and you hope you didn't mess up, I pulled the limbs the first time and they DID feel different - in a good way. I struggle with TP, so any relief at the end of the draw is just one more reason not to let go. Anyway, I shot indoors for several hours and was VERY relieved, they are what they say they are. I'll post a picture of my set-up if I can figure out how.

From: Wojo14
Date: 09-Jan-18




Lance. I’d love to see the bow. Is it pretty quiet?

From: Oak
Date: 10-Jan-18




That was another big surprise. I had watched video's that looked like there was a lot of vibration, so I figured noise. It was quiet @ 7" brace height, and it felt no different that any other limbs as far as vibration. I suspect that ANY recurve bow has a lot of vibration at the limb tips when you shoot them, you just don't see it without the ultra slow motion camera stuff that people have used to film the extreme curve bows.

For that matter, I didn't know a bow string went completely limp during the shot until I saw a slow motion of that. Vibration of coarse, but a string does some crazy stuff I didn't know they did!

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Jan-18




This bow is as quiet as ...

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Jan-18

Bowmania's embedded Photo



From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Jan-18

Bowmania's embedded Photo



... as this bow. It's the silencers. IT gets rid of the oscillations faster and makes them smaller.

You can't quite see them in the Border without looking close.

Bowmania

From: Wojo14
Date: 10-Jan-18




Todd, That ILF rig looks awsome! What is the specs? Riser? Limbs?~Wojo

From: cch
Date: 10-Jan-18




Wojo, that is a Border Tempest riser and I think Hex 7.5 limbs in the 40# range. The risers come in 17,19,21,25,27". I have a 19" and really like it.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Jan-18




cch is a pound off - 39.

Bowmania

From: cch
Date: 10-Jan-18




It's a super recurve so I thought it must feel heavier...oh wait???

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 12-Jan-18




You may want to read this before deciding:

http://tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116658

From: Cowboy Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-Jan-18




What fletching are u using Todd? I have been considering going to a short fletching

From: Beendare
Date: 13-Jan-18




I've heard little bits and pieces of complaints about Border customer service....and I'm usually skeptical.

When it happens to a guy like Steve that has been a trusted source and all around good dude....no Border stuff for me. Whew, I almost went there.

From: zetabow
Date: 13-Jan-18




My advice to people, if possible support your local bowyer, do your research first and ask people how customer service is, know how you intent to shoot stays within warranty. The closer access you have with a bowyer the better relationship/service your likely to have.

When things go wrong both Archer and Bowyer it can be tense and doesn't take much to fall out.

From: cch
Date: 13-Jan-18




I have had nothing but exceptional customer service from Border.

Just remember there is two sides to a story. I was going to write more but I will just leave it there.

From: Jinkster
Date: 13-Jan-18




I've owned 4 different sets of Borders Hex7/7.5 series limbs over the past 2 years where this last set is coming up on somewhere between 15-20,000 shots across it's shelf and a year old and have had zero issues with any of them except?...

My first set were low poundage 35# Short ILF Hex7.5's I purchased used and sold them within a few days because they just didn't feel right on the 5+lb Stolid Bull Black Thunder BB riser I had them mounted too...then again?...that riser was so heavy that it could easily cause my 42# ILF Robertfishes custom Amberboo/Glass ILF limbs to torque the string completely out of the string groove on let-down.

My personal journey in archery has led me to become intrigued with the Barebow Class which is arguably home to many of the worlds finest single string archers but in doing so?...this experience has taught me that the extreme mass that Barebow risers are endowed with along with the added mass of "Barebow Weights"?...causes these massive tank like risers to induce stress levels upon limbs that otherwise would never never be subjected too such.

Limb Failures in the Barebow class are nothing new and are not limited too any one particular brand where limb failures are more like "All Inclusive" as in...name a brand?...and some Barebow archer somewhere has managed to blow a set or three up.

I seriously doubt any Big Hook SR type limbs would work well on any heavy mass BB style riser and even limbs of conventional profiles?...better be of extremely sound build quality with very low inherent stress.

6 of the 16 "Instinctive Class Finalists" at the 2017 WA 3D World Championship in Robion, France were shooting Borders Hex7/7.5 Covert Hunters.

I heard no mention of any Morrison products being there.

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 13-Jan-18




"I heard no mention of any Morrison products being there."

Went out on a limb with that one, huh Bill?

Morrison has been primarily an American "hunting" bow company that's been into ILF products a relatively short time. Border has been into the Euopean market and competitive archery forever compared to them. No doubt the amount of limbs and bows sold by Morrison is a pimple on Border's butt.

From: K Cummings
Date: 13-Jan-18




I don't have much experience with either the Morrison or Border limbs but I will say this about any manufacturer in general.

I don't care how good you are, you are never going to make everyone happy. It's just not possible. Some people simply cannot be pleased...ever.

Having said that, I've been around these "traditional archery" forums for close to two decades, and there are a couple things I've noticed. You start to see patterns. Isolated stories of bad customer service aren't uncommon. They can be brushed off as well...isolated cases. However, sometimes you hear the same stories over and over and over again, even from folks that aren't knows to be complainers. When something starts to look like a pattern, it usually is.

Whichever limbs you're thinking about, I would suggest you listen to people that have had experience with the manufacturer, both good and bad, and when the experience has been bad, find out how the situation was handled.

Don't let "visions of sugar-plums dancing in your head" cloud your vision.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

KPC

From: Wojo14
Date: 13-Jan-18




“My advice to people, if possible support your local bowyer, do your research first and ask people how customer service is, know how you intent to shoot stays within warranty. The closer access you have with a bowyer the better relationship/service your likely to have.” ....Good point! ~Wojo

From: zetabow
Date: 13-Jan-18




Martin Ottotsson has shot most WA Field/3D tourneys over the last 10 years, he said he's not seen one limb failure in Barebow div. In WA3D worlds I didn't see anyone shooting Border limbs in Barebow div.

The Hex7.5 is a new product so logical that you might see a few around, let's see if it grows or Archers change back over the next year or two.

I think Barebow look more for a balance of stability and accuracy rather than flat out speed, it's aiming method allows some margin for error on distance estimation.

From: swampwalker
Date: 15-Jan-18




Ah Steven. From TT to here. Just can't help yourself. Myself, never had a problem with my Border limbs. Top notch. Will you be posting an apology thread here too, Steve?

From: jjs
Date: 15-Jan-18




I have a Border 6 BB 44# limbs on a Morrison wood riser and it is very good hunting bow and Morrison 4 med 40# limbs on Pheonix riser and is very smooth for my damage shoulders. If no one has ever shot them then they have no reason to commit on them, they have definitely advance the performance for hunting with low # bows which keeps me in the field and that is all that matters.

From: swampwalker
Date: 15-Jan-18




Agreed. And my lo siento to the OP for wandering.

From: savage1
Date: 15-Jan-18




I have border and Morrison. Border has a bit more feel of let off in my opinion. Morrison is quieter nearly as fast, looks good, cheaper and have been on time. I cancelled an order for a Tempest riser because of the inability to deliver.

Stick to the truth and you don't have to about your words. If you say your behind It's a truth I have to except but when you don't even address my questions I'm unhappy. Another thing it seems to me is repeat spenders get preference and post like fan boys but the one timer gets to hear about the moon, the stars, the internet, the anodizer (a big one there not our fault)the flu and the weather just to name a few and these are mostly on public forums. Emails get. "We are trying to catch up as best we can". Not a bad answer in and of itself and a great answer if it was the first but not after several general put offs. I thank them for the refund and do like the hex6 limbs But that's the extent of the love affair. You know about the boasting and the posting so enough said there.

All my life all limbs are very similar in design and appearance according to type of bow. Now, now one should make big hooks but border? Did they file a patent? Why are they laminating limbs? That process belongs to another. Did they invent the three pc? Another blatant rip off. Be original and not hypocritical, quit using other people hard earned inovations. One pc, spoken for. Two pc, taken. Three pc damn. How about a four of? There is a vacancy!

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 16-Jan-18




Truth

Never been a Border in near memory on an ASA or IBO podium, prolly not a NFAA one either and not in Yankton for sure 3d. That is, as top dog or 1st or 2nd loser.

Was in not you Bill who just said "you needed to put your border down for a spell and rethink using it after the blow up on TT"?

ZETA and KPC have it about correct.

From: Jinkster
Date: 16-Jan-18




HedgeHunter:

"Was in not you Bill who just said "you need to put your border down for a spell and rethink using it after the blow up on TT"?"

Well?...you're close but what I really said was...

*************************************

"I was so upset about what went down that I actually felt guilty about even owning a Border bow let alone two of'em and had some wild thoughts going on where for a moment there?...I actually thought about selling them both just to wash my hands of the whole mess here and then after wondering what I'd replace them with?...started looking at J.D. Berry's site again and window shopping HH style bows where I even found myself starring at a Toelke Super D and then found a real sweet 66"/42# Big River longbow for sale.

But ya know what?...if I get another Kraken?...I'll get to hear how it's not a real longbow cause it has a recurve riser and if I bought the Big River?...I'd get to hear how it has too much R/D to be a real longbow and if I did buy a true HH style bow?...I'd get called out by the traditionalists because it "has a shelf"...and might even run into some hardcore types that just hate seeing glass used in their split bamboo beauties that are the one and only true longbow until they run into the guy smiling holding a strung stick of yew. LOL!

So I'll be sticking with what I have for the moment but my focus will be on my 650 Club BB rig as my other two only seem to serve to offend folks...I even took them out of my signature line out of respect for others."

*******************************

and I've since STRONGLY reconsidered as PM's started flying immediately and?...turns out it was proven to me that there's enough dirt behind the scenes on the other side of that fence that it was sickening for me to hear and Borders has proven themselves very honorable too me and that is why?....

I'm stepping back from all this crap as hoodlums and scoundrels abound and each with their own privatized agenda's where the only agenda I have is to enjoy my archery and that said?...

My Covert Hunter and I will be headed south this weekend to attend "The Stickbow 100" in Ft. Lauderdale where hopefully I can get away from all this mess and relocate my peace, joy and happiness again.

Be Blessed and L8R, Bill.

From: cch
Date: 16-Jan-18




Savage, they never said no one should build super recurve limbs. They are just upset when they get a set of limbs from someone and it fits in their forms perfectly.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 16-Jan-18




Could be wrong, but I was under the impression, that at least for a while Border built the MAX series limbs for Morrison, and they were based on the Border HEX design.

Rick

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 16-Jan-18




I wonder if Hoyt got upset when folks were putting Border limbs on their Formula risers? I wonder if Bear Archery got upset that folks were sticking Border limbs in their risers. I wonder.... I wonder.....

Seems some folks can justify anything--as long as it suits bias.

From: cch
Date: 16-Jan-18




Wow Jim you forgot ILF.

From: cch
Date: 16-Jan-18




Rick, yes they made the Max 2 which was similar to Hex 6.

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 16-Jan-18




Yeah, I forgot ILF. I did remember that Morrsion wood risers have the same limb pad angle as Sky wood risers and they're the same length too. Those darn scoundrels and hoodlums--thieves thay are.

:^)

From: Styksnstryngs
Date: 16-Jan-18




Not here, too... For the OP, I have had some friends and aquaintances shoot border hex limbs, and a lot have switched to uukha. Nobody in target archery uses border limbs for Olympic style archery, and I asked my coach why, and apparently the "letoff" effect actually drops scores on really high level shooters, because to them, repeatability is more important than speed and the mushy feeling at the end of he draw cycle does make it a tad harder to get a clean release. If you do go that route, be careful stringing and I recommend not string walking or using a crawl, my friend has a scar on his face from the latter and he was not covered by warranty for it.

From: zetabow
Date: 16-Jan-18




Swamp walker the issues on TT are between myself and Sid the apoligy was to members and Sid.

Are you trying to say my 3 failures are a lie and I cannot post my opinion. If you check back over the last few years I said some positive and critical things about the limbs.

From: zetabow
Date: 17-Jan-18




Sorry for double post.

There is no perfect riser or limb, even reviews on the Vanquish I've posted the good and bad points.

Jinks keeps posting this stuff about String walking causing more limb failures, this info is pulled straight out of his head and not based on any data, he thinks if he repeats this misinformation enough times it will become truth.

I'll repeat what I've said many times Border make a great limb, I think their CV is the best in stability and consistency and best suited for tourney, I won European 3Ds with the CV before they failed. Some people have had no issues and some have had problems. All manufacturers have failures it's a fact of life but on these Forums it's Taboo to talk about Borders!

From: edcor
Date: 17-Jan-18




Somewhere between 15-20,000 shots across it's shelf and a year old and have had zero issues with any of them except? So you have shot 54 arrows every day out of the Border Limbs over the past year? AND all the other bows as well? Somehow doubt this!!

From: edcor
Date: 17-Jan-18




Somewhere between 15-20,000 shots across it's shelf and a year old and have had zero issues with any of them except? So you have shot 54 arrows every day out of the Border Limbs over the past year? AND all the other bows as well? Somehow doubt this!!

From: edcor
Date: 17-Jan-18




Who exactly is swampwalker? Does he shoot internationally like Steve does or just a 10 yard back yard shooter of note?

From: zetabow
Date: 17-Jan-18




Edcor it doesn't matter you shooting background, everyone should have an equal opinion, as long as it factual and truthful.

Censorship by intimidating and bullying is not. Those that have lied and discredited me on the closed Border Forum, I hope you are proud of yourself, the internet isn't as private as you imagine it to be.

From: K Cummings
Date: 17-Jan-18

K Cummings's embedded Photo



”Lol Border and Morrison "SHARE" technology lol lol lol someone here had better tell Border that they are in the sharing bussiness.....................because i will bet anyone $100 dollars that Border has never said to any archery company "sure go ahead and ride on the back of all the development work we do.”

Wake the heck up!!!!!”

For what it’s worth, there’s nary a bowyer operating today that doesnt ”ride on the back” of someone else’s developments.

Take these patents for example...

KPC

From: cch
Date: 17-Jan-18




Like has already been said using the technology is one thing making a direct copy is another. I like seeing bowyers push technology and I hope more do. Just don't take one guys limbs and make a form off of them and call them your own. That's kind of cheap. That was an older limb in the video I saw so don't know if things have changed?

From: K Cummings
Date: 17-Jan-18




I'm not sure anyone is making a direct copy cch.

Of the three main "super-recurve" limbs (Border, Morrison and Uukha), all three have different profiles, different shooting characteristics, different construction, and different performance.

KPC

From: zetabow
Date: 17-Jan-18




cch be cautious what you write, I don't know if what you say is fact or just speculation, I wouldn't want to see you in hot water over such claims.

Shoot straight.

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 17-Jan-18




Zeta

Its the same guys here touting the Border stuff. When you pay that kind of coin for a product I guess mis-information must come with the Warantee but, keep that thing because from half of everything I read has the words broken, failure, scars, shipping sucks, customer service, email out of order etc.

From: cch
Date: 17-Jan-18




Zetabow, it was just a video I saw of one bowyers limb matched up with another and it was an exact match. It also fit on the same form. That is all I can say as I don't have them in hand. Like I said it was an older limb and there might have been changes?

From: K Cummings
Date: 17-Jan-18




cch:

Could it be that at one time one of the companies in question was actually making the limbs for the other?

KPC

From: Wojo14
Date: 17-Jan-18




Boy this got heated.....~Wojo

From: Deadringer
Date: 17-Jan-18




You should have read some threads on TradTalk last week, this one is nothing in comparison.

I read way more than post, and it would do a ton for the Border bowyer (Sids?) to just stay out of the discussions. The way he comes across has me wanting nothing to do with his products. Then the customer service thing, I can only think of reading about one or two other customer service issues with bowyers...that means a lot to me.

I have Max1's (have had 2 sets, one set that was skinned that i regret selling) and want to upgrade to Max4's or 5's. Morrison still has to make the limb and make it work. Plus I like what it says on the Morrison website about the Max limbs that priority number one is durability.

Do your research if you're in the market for this type of big hooked limb (Border, Morrison, Uukha, and a few others are popping up) because they ain't cheap!

From: cch
Date: 17-Jan-18




KPC, yes they did but it was a different limb.

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 17-Jan-18




Border needs a friendly knowledgeable USA representative.Scots don't take much crap and what's out there for pro-voices just make it worse.Sometimes it's best to just shut up.

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 17-Jan-18




4 nolz#work wrote: "Border needs a friendly knowledgeable USA representative. Scots don't take much crap and what's out there for pro-voices just make it worse...."

From what I've seen, they may not take much, but they sure can dish it out--arrogant, condescending, name-calling and constant negative comments about their competitors, (which is very unethical).

You question anything about them and you'll be labeled a hater, get nasty PM's, be called a liar and accused of saying and being all kinds of things you never said or did.

So.... you're sure right, what’s out there (the cult-like paranoid protectionist) a just makes things worse.

I’ve never owned a Border product, but every one I’ve seen has been flawless. The fit and finish are absolutely impeccable. It’s obvious they strive for perfection. Having said that…. I’ll never spend a penny on any Border product simply due to their demeaning attitude and the delusional fantasies of their minions.

Personal? You think I’ve taken some of this stuff personal? You’re darn right I have. You cult members want to find haters, hoodlums and scoundrels with private agenda’s you need look no further than your closest bathroom mirror.

From: zetabow
Date: 17-Jan-18




And the same with Englishmen, so sparks were bound to fly. I walked away from TT to get away from Sid and not to damage the Forum, some resentment about how things have been dealt with so good for my own sanity.

I won't be bullied into silence though, I will still post my views on how the limbs shoot, good and bad points, the same as any other equipment I've shot over the years.

If I have an agenda it's to give people what they need for an informed decision. I will only talk about performance and reliability, I'm not going into the customer service I had, it was likely a clash of characters and not typical customer service.

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 17-Jan-18




Jim maybe The Sids will give you a bow.------> :)

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 17-Jan-18




Sure they will they will give you one. Just have to pay the $1200 for shipping.

From: zetabow
Date: 17-Jan-18




Hedgehunter I spat my Beer out with laughter. You just saved this thread lol

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 17-Jan-18




From the word I'm seeing and hearing on the mainland. Morrison's will soon eclipse Border's here just because they are in USA and they are not putting product out and letting paying customers do their R & D for them.

From: Wojo14
Date: 17-Jan-18




:From the word I'm seeing and hearing on the mainland. Morrison's will soon eclipse Border's here just because they are in USA and they are not putting product out and letting paying customers do their R & D for them”. Sure sounds like it!! ~Wojo

From: Penny Banks
Date: 17-Jan-18




Bob Morrison is and always has been a gentleman. I don't know the Sids but from what i have seen posted by Sid Jr he is not fit to walk in Bob's boots.

Jim Castro Jr said it very well. I could not agree more

From: K Cummings
Date: 17-Jan-18




Dang...

I've known Jim Casto Jr for quite a few years now and he is one of the most helpful, reserved (unlike me), fair minded, slow to annoy individuals that I think I have ever met.

For him to make a post like the one he just made says something.

KPC

From: cch
Date: 17-Jan-18




I wish there a like button, hedge hunters shipping post is very funny.

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 17-Jan-18




I think Bob Morrison learned that arguing on the internet is like running a race in the.....he's pretty thick skinned nowadays.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 17-Jan-18




Does anyone know that Bob is not running Morrison any more. It's Bradon, whom I've had some great transactions with concerning Max 4's and a 25 inch ILF riser.

Bowmania

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 17-Jan-18




Just like Earl Hoyt and Pete Sheply did? Worked for them and I'm sure it'll work for BoB

From: K Cummings
Date: 17-Jan-18




Well, I guess now we know why Fred Bear never spent a whole lot of time posting on internet forums.

KPC

From: cch
Date: 17-Jan-18




Bowmania the Max 4 limbs are very nice. Brandon did a great job on the pair I bought for my buddy.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 17-Jan-18




I've shot 4's. They are nice.

Bowmania

From: Wojo14
Date: 17-Jan-18




I never met or talked to bob. I have emailed Brandon a bunch of times and he is very responsive and helpful. I wanted to go out and see him, but it did not work out. I hope to meet him and shoot his limbs. ~Wojo

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 18-Jan-18




Like to test a set on a 21" riser see if my DL increases a bit with 5's.

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 18-Jan-18




is Bob retired?

From: Anthrope
Date: 18-Jan-18




From what I heard, Bob sold the business to Brandon last year. He is still doing the snake skins on the limbs and pine cones on the risers but everything else is being handled by Brandon.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 18-Jan-18




They are not making limbs for their wood bows, like a Shawnee.

Bowmania

From: kenn1320
Date: 18-Jan-18




"Yeah, I forgot ILF. I did remember that Morrsion wood risers have the same limb pad angle as Sky wood risers and they're the same length too. Those darn scoundrels and hoodlums-- thieves thay are. :^)"

Well seems your starting to connect the dots. Sky makes a lot of products for a lot of companys that brand things as their own. When the cnc went down at sky, seems the wood riser market dried up as well. The Max limbs were being built by an American bowyer for a short period of time, then Morrison threw them under the bus online saying they couldnt build the limb without breakage and Morrison was going to make them in house. ya ok lol

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 18-Jan-18




I've browsed the "new" Morrison Archery website quite a bit over the past few weeks.

Looks like Brandon has things going his way, and working real well.

With Bob hanging around for consulting, and a few other things, I believe they have a very bright future ahead of them.

Rick

From: swampwalker
Date: 18-Jan-18




Now it's easy to see why these forums are near useless. Most of you Border bashers haven't even plucked your money down to make a fair comparison. Steve has. Most of you guys are a joke. I see this thread closing fast. Sooner the better.

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 18-Jan-18




12 days....With high dollar limbs guys ask for opinions.

From: Demmer
Date: 18-Jan-18




Excellent post swampwalker. You have enjected nothing but hatred into a post. I hate to tell you, but borders break at a higher rate and also kick out more negativity on the customer service at a higher rate. So what we normally have here are more people that will naturally speak negative about them in general because of those facts. I hope you don't run into the same problem that many people have had (some are personally friends of mine).

From: Demmer
Date: 18-Jan-18




People insult my conventional limbs all the time, call them old technology, living in the past, stacky, not forward thinking, same old vanilla, spongy in the front, too long etce etc etc. I don't get offended. I wish people wouldn't get so upset when something isn't said unfavorably towards something they bought or use. Oh well.

From: Backcountry
Date: 18-Jan-18




I, for one, wouldn't pay $1200 for shipping even if they threw a border bow in for free...well, maybe for a barrel full--it sounds like you might need that many!

From: Backcountry
Date: 18-Jan-18




I think Sid enjoys barbing us north american yanks.

He called me a cowboy once when I inquired about buying a set of limbs they had on clearance--their "old" technology. Wouldn't even tell me draw weights at different riser lengths. Said I was going all wild west on him and he didn't want to be a part of it.

Yup, I said, we don't blame the guy who sold us the horse if it bucks us off.

From: Backcountry
Date: 18-Jan-18




From: K Cummings
Date: 18-Jan-18




"I think Sid enjoys barbing us north american yanks.

For his sake I hope so, as it could prove to be a very expensive hobby.

KPC

From: zetabow
Date: 18-Jan-18




"Apparently the "letoff" effect actually drops scores on really high level shooters, because to them, repeatability is more important than speed and the mushy feeling at the end of he draw cycle"

This is what I felt and my Field scores confirmed it, of course for some it will help them, that's why it's good we have a choice. The score difference wasn't big 10-15 points but over a 5 day world/European championship it adds up. It was implied that it's because I don't know how to tune Hex6 limbs lol

From: Penny Banks
Date: 18-Jan-18




True that

From: swampwalker
Date: 18-Jan-18




Nothing but hatred Mr Demmer? I don't see it rereading my posts. I know Borders creates some of there own problems with his posts. I've had no problems with 5 different sets of limbs going back to my TXBs. Hatred? Just a bit thin skinned. With all due respect. You have mine.

From: swampwalker
Date: 18-Jan-18




Really didn't mean to offend anyone personally. Just hate these keyboard attacks. Life's way to short. Shoot what you like and let others do the same.

From: zetabow
Date: 19-Jan-18




"Just hate these keyboard attacks."

Like you posted about me a couple of days ago, if you want to see Border hater, just look on Borders FB page, absolute poison being spread about me. It's pretty sad and unhealthy to have that kind of hate.

I'm glad you have had nothing but good experiences, I'm glad Border has competition, they will have to work harder at making a better product.

Remember always two sides to a story and nobody makes perfect limbs, people want to know the good and bad characteristics of a limb, I can give that info on all the limbs I've shot which is what I've done for years

From: edcor
Date: 19-Jan-18




Really didn't mean to offend anyone personally. Just hate these keyboard attacks. Life's way to short. Shoot what you like and let others do the same. WOW This is really great considering the pm I received from swampwalker? This is meant as a threat? I take it as that so I replied that I would love to meet him? swampwalker - Would suggest a meeting but you must be other

From: edcor
Date: 19-Jan-18




Puts him in a totally different light now? A keyboard warrior!! I did my research before I spent my hard earned money-spoke with good archers who were in the know about extreme curve limbs and was warned off Border.Will not divulge by whom but bought the Uukha Pro Riser and extreme curve limbs.Have punished them over the past 18 months and no regrets. Let the suckers find out for themselves!!

From: Sixby
Date: 19-Jan-18




Interesting thread. I have experience with both bowyers. Its Bob Morrison all the way in the fine person department and he makes a wonderful bow. I won't run Sid down. He also makes a beautiful bow. God bless, Steve

From: edcor
Date: 19-Jan-18




Guess that we are not running anyone down for making a beautiful bow-just one that works and does not "blow up". I personally want one that does what I want from it-not a blow up doll!

From: zetabow
Date: 19-Jan-18




Let's keep this in perspective, I really don't know if Border has a higher percentage of failures than another manufacturer, it could be because they're talked about on Forums alot, you hear about the bad experiences more than the good, and I happy to hear some have had years of problem free use. It seems a big Taboo to critique Border in any way, I there product is so superior, why are they so defensive all the time?

From: K Cummings
Date: 19-Jan-18




"Now it's easy to see why these forums are near useless."

In my opinion, these forums only become "useless" if and when a free exchange of information, on both sides, is squelched.

As I said before, every bow maker is going to have their fans and every bow maker is going to have it's detractors. This is not unique to the archery industry.

The patterns that emerge over time are what is important. That's how the general public determines whether or not they feel comfortable dealing with X, Y, or Z company. If the complainers are an outlier, that will be exposed in short order. If the complainers are the norm, that will be apparent also.

If a manufacturer enjoys (by his own admission), "barbing" his potential customer base, and publicly demeaning his detractors, it usually doesn't end well...even if he's right. This goes for both the manufacturer and those that think they are helping by attempting to shout down anyone who disagrees.

I've been around these forums for the better part of two decades, and they are replete with examples of those who have tried those tactics and failed miserably. Smart men, who made fine products, but they've fallen by the wayside.

On the flip side, I can think of two companies that have probably taken more abuse on these forums than anyone else I can think of, yet they are two of the most helpful, respected, and successful companies in the traditional archery business.

Why? In my opinion it is in large part because they absolutely refuse to engage in any of the back and forth garbage, now matter how bad it gets.

KPC

From: swampwalker
Date: 19-Jan-18




My last foray. Could it be that Border' s rate of failures is having to do with their going where few have gone before? Of course! They're pushing the envelope. Not hard to see. Or is it???

From: HedgeHunter
Date: 19-Jan-18




Not with my money. My money is not for Border Bow R & D.

Push R & D on their time and dime not customers.





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