ok, I wanted to share some old timer advise,, for anyone that will listen,, I have been accused of not knowing anything,,,but I think this will help new guys wanting to make wood bows,,,this post has been inspired by months of reading other post,,,, like my handle popped off,,,, or my bow broke at the handle ,, etc,,, in this day,, it is hard to get anyone to slow down enough,,, to really study a peace of wood,,,,,band saw,, power sanders etc,,,, you missed your weight,, or your bow is so out of tiller that it turns to a childs bow in a few seconds,,,,,,, this is my suggestion,,, to any new bow maker,,,,, 1,, go to home depot,,,, get a straight grain red oak board 2 inches wide and 6 feet long,,,, get the biggest rasp they have,,,,,, and make a bow just using that,,,,yes even the string nocks,,,, it will teach you patience,,, there is no easy way to make a great bow,,,now make the bow using one of the best designs to date,,,,,a d bow ,,, Cherokee war bow style,,, dont worry about a target weight,, just make it bend even ,,,,ok now learn how to shoot it,,, no dont cut a shelf ,, ,please,,,,just shoot off your hand,,, now give that bow away,,,,, now make two more just the same,,give those away,,,and then write down everything you learned,,,, you will be a better bowyer for it,,, and three more friends,,,

ok to clarify,, i mean just rasp,, ,dont use scraper ,,, just use a lighter touch to fine tune your tiller with the wrasp,,, if you think you need to make it pretty,, then do that after you finish making 3 bows,,,,

Brad, boards are a great way to hone your skills, even when you have a lot of experience. They are economical for starters and will shoot just as well as a stave bow when you are finished. I started off with just hand tools then started using a lot of power tools, gradually I worked back to mostly hand tools depending on what I am doing. I see guys now looking for exact demensions on how thick to make a bow things like that. I don't believe I have ever measured thickness on a bow, you just remove wood where you need to remove it and learn to tiller. It really is not rocket science and is very enjoyable and relaxing to work on a bow.

thanks Badger, nice points,,,

Brad, something else to mention on boards. I often go to the lumber yard and look through the 2X4 and 2X6 hardwoods mostly white oak or hard maple for boards that are flat sawn with straight grain that I can chase a ring on and still build a stave bow from a board so it's really not a board bow any more and good practice chasing rings.

After reading this, im ready to start a new project.

Great advice from 2 of the all time greats. Thanks!

yes you can get a great bow,, on a pretty tight budget,,

excellent thread Brad, I couldn't agree more

that's how i started only i had a hickory board instead of red oak it takes a LOOOOOOONG time when the only tools are a worn out rasp and a dull pocket knife BUT i think i learned more making that first bow than any bow since

Great advice, Brad. Just to add...take time in choosing a board that has straight grain tip to tip if possible. I look at the edge grain. Jawge

Sounds like as good as challenge as any:-) Have to put that on my list.

Brad...you are talented, but not an old timer. You are a getting older-timer. 8^).

ok maybe I got a little head of myself,, but it has been feeling like I am old timer,,,,

Brad, thank you for the advice. I added this to my favorite threads the first time I read it and just reviewed it again. Time for a HD pit stop. Fred

Gentlemen- my thanks to all contributors on this thread, i did just that with my 1st red oak bows and broke them all. Then I used pignut hickory, and my wifes bow came out, well like a youth horsebow, it like 50 lbs @ 24", now my next bow, same wood for me, is underway and I am in the tillering stage, it's going to be 71" ntn, and whatever weight this wood will accept for my 31.5-32" draw. That has been my major problem, my long draw. Thanks for your time and the great advice, Bill

Practice with the tools is always laudible. Only 'board bows' I have ever made were using MOSO edge glued up bamboo flooring backed with tapered bamboo nodes on with a riser added and overlays applied. They came out great, tho for a bow that is drawn 30" and is zippy and over 70#s that still was a tall order..

I admire ANYONE who works on a Home Depot or other kiln dried board of oak and turns out a serviceable bow over 40#@28'..that stays together. THAT shows dedication.AND skill.

From an older bow maker, I'd advise to get the best straightest and cleanest osage or yew ( or pignut hickory, ironwood, Tennessee Red Cedar, elm, locust, mulberry)you can find and put your eye, heart and hand to work on a great piece of wood. Wood properly selected, seasoned and assessed and crafted.

You will spend many more hours wrestling with inferior wood and end up with a lesser bow than IF you take the time to start with the very best wood you can cut, find or swap-trade for..

The old saying: "you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.." has some verity.. Unless you have more energy and time than you can possibly use..MAKE YOUR TIME AND SKILLS COUNT AND USE THE VERY BEST WOOD YOU CAN FIND..Jim

Good advice Jim but some of us are lacking in the fund department and ruining a $60 osage stave on my first attempt tempts me to try my next practice session on a slighly inferior and cheaper board.

Bowferd, I suppose I understand that..:)

IF you are contemplating your 'first attempt' at selfbow making..HAVE you handled shot seen and measured any decent self bows? THAT always helps..No need to reinvent the wheel on bow designs for a particular draw length, draw weight or wood type.

Let me ask you this:

IF you REALLY want to grow( and eat) the finest tomatoes in your garden.............................Do you start learning by buying and planting radishes?..I doubt it..:0Jim

I'm with Jim. Use the best bow wood you can get your hands on. Of all the bow wood I've acquired, I've bought very little of it. Most of it I've found and cut, but much of it was given to me, some in trade for other wood, services, etc.

For those without the funds to buy top shelf, first rate bow wood outright, there are other means. One way I've found good bow wood is by contacting my local forestry service. They put me in touch with folks who used them to manage their property and I was able to call them, visit with them, and some of them let me cut Osage on their property.

You can also contact local tree removal services or loggers and tell them what you're up to, what you need, and ask if they can help you out. I've gotten wood that way too for very little money and for free.

I'd have nothing against using red oak boards from Lowes if I had to, I've just never had to :)

...sounds interesting though, I might do it just for something different one of these days.

Jim, You should make a simple pyramid lumber-yard-red-oak bow. You will be pleasantly surprised and better understand what Brad is suggesting.

I have seen and made many many red oak board bows that will hold their own with osage and yew bows. You ave to design the bow around the wood you are using. A few years ago I had a particularly dense piece of red oak, a straight grained 1x2(3/4X1 1/2) I was able to get a 100# bow from it. bend through the handle 72" long. You can use red oak for any design bow you want to build as long as you leave it sufficiently wide enough. 3/4" thick lumber is best suited for bows under 60# gebraly though because any heavier that and it will flex through the handle and pop off your glued on handle.

badger, with all respect due. you wrote;

"I have seen and made many many red oak board bows that will hold their own with osage and yew bows."

Well I'm not sure what bows of osage or yew you have seen made or shot..or exactly what you mean by "hold their own..."

If you mean they will get braced and look decent?Perhaps.

If you mean they will show 45#( 0R 100#s) on a bow scale at 28"? Perhaps...if the 100# bow is close to 4" wide..:)

IF you are saying they will cast an arrow for an archer that compares with a well made bow of osage or yew?... Charitably speaking: Very questionable.

Don't mean to dissuade anyone from useing a pocketknife sharp rock or any tool on a lath slat to make a bow of sorts..ESP for the kids.

But for men who work, have families and limited time,imagine paying yourself .50 cents an hour to do the same work ( or more) wrestling with a poor piece of wood..and probably breaking a dozen before you get one that gets to full draw..and then it's A SLUG..

Now take that hypothetical .50 cents an hour and save it up and look for a proven wood used by real archers and bowyers since antiquity and buy it.

A friend of mine sold a truckload of 48" 2100' elevation cut yew logs 10" in diameter that will make four great spliced stave bows at the last Trad Rendezvous down in California for 30.00 or so each.They needed to be cut-split and seasoned a bit..

The wood is out there..but you have to have a vision for finding, cutting or securing good bow wood or you'll end up settling for any wood.You'll do the same or more work trying to make a good finished bow from questionable wood that you will from excellent wood.

Funny that with all the red oak trees and lumber used for flooring in the past 200 years in America NOT ONE major selfbow or laminated bow maker in Ben Pearson's era used the wood for bows... Not Stemmler, not Prouty, not Jim Duff..Not Earl Grubbs..Not Horwath..nor Stevenson, nor Ullrich nor Pope or Young ..or Fred Bear for that matter.. In Ye Sylvan Archer not a single ad for bows made from red oak..or any oak for that matter.

But carry on gents..:) I still admire you for your perseverence in the face of adversity..Jim

This wood or that wood it doesnt matter...what matters is the BOWYER who makes it. Osage is my number one preference and im not a big fan of red oak boards,but ive seen plenty of red oak board bows out perform osage bows. Ive seen my fair share of overbuilt dog osage bows. Those old boys didnt use anything else because they were told by the previous generation of what you can use. And they didnt understand how to design to the properties of any other wood...they only knew osage flatbow and yew longbow....its not the wood,its the bowyer

i love hickory!

My garden has radishes and tomatoes. The radishes grow nice and fast while the tomato plants sit there getting taller and taller. The radish plants have yielded their fruit and anything left becomes bitter in the heat of summer. The tomato plants thrive in the heat. Long about August they start to ripen yielding their delicious bounty. My drawknife has touched boards, whitewoods, black locust (learned on it; that edgerkated me), osage and yew (thanks, Jim) over the course of 23 years of this love affair with selfbows. It's all good. Don't limit yourself. Like the tomatoes and radishes each wood has its advantages and disadvantages. Jawge

Dire wolf, I am no new kid on the block. Since January of this year I have probably built 30 osage bows, 6 yew bows, maybe 1/2 dozen assorted white wood bows, a few black locust bows. matbe 1/2 dozen assorted boo or hickory backed bows and this has been a very slow bow building year for me. When I use the term hold your own I am reffering to what I figure is a par number for a self bow, I figure 170 fps with 10 grains per pound drawing 28" is par. I like to do better than that with osage but not by a lot. I can do that number with poplar, soft maple, red oak, not my favorite woods but great woods to learn on and yes they will build a durable bow that will last for years and thousands of shots. Poplar tends to blow up before the thousand mark very often. Their are first string bow woods, second string bow woods and 3rd string but they will all make an effective hunting weapon. By the way the 100# red aok bow was 1 1/2" wide and 72" long bend through the handle. Took a bit more set than I like but I was still impressed with it.

Brad excellent advice! You sir took part to inspire me into the selfbow world some 10 - 12 years ago. I certainly would love to see you post some pics of your work.

I appreciate the encouragement to try cheap board bows. This is all I work with. I am the husband/father with 4 young kids. I am not an excellent bowyer or even a mediocre one. But I can build a board bow in a couple hours. One that will shoot today or tomorrow. I don't have the time to seek out, cut, split, season, work down a stave, only to possibly have IT fail. I understand the recommendation to only use a rasp, ut I prefer boards because they lend themselves very well to some power tools. You can rough a profile out in a matter of minutes, then on to the hand tools. If the board breaks, we'll do another. Cheap, easily accessible, easy to work with, and they shoot. Works for me.

About 5 years ago or so a bowyer from euraope challenegd Tim Baker to build a red oakow that could beat his composite horn sinew bow that tooks several months to build. We held the contest st the Pasadena archery range. I believe both bows weighed in at 52#, Tims bow was made that morning in about 1 1/2 hours. The arrow was 520 grains and both bows were drawn to 28". Red oak bow 172 fps, Horn composite bow 172 fps. I have seen more yew bows blow up than Ihave red oak bows. Tim would show up on sundays and pass out for free boards he selected at home depot. In the 6 or so years Tim atteneded the meets and helped other build bows I can only recall a very small number that didn't become good shooters. Knowing how to select a good specimen of red aok is a big part ofd the battle. Besides needing straight grain on a 1/4 sawn board it also helps to select denser, heavier samples often showing themselves as glossier and waxier in appearance.

The glossier and waxier appearance is an excellent point, Badger, and seems to apply to most whitewoods. They do generally result in better bows. You have been busy building bows since retirement. That's good. Tim's not going to the bow meets?

BTW, for those contemplating starting, I've found that all 3 board cuts will do for bows-1/4 sawn, plain sawn and rift sawn. For plain sawn and rift sawn, I look at the face . I also look at the edge. LOL. Tim said I don't have to look at the edge. A couple of run outs per limb are ok. For 1/4 sawn straight tip tip on the edge is needed. No knots or imperfections.

No one is saying use boards exclusively. You can see the variety of bows Badger has made and I haven't done a board bow in a few years. They are a viable alternative.

Info on my site. It's all there including a good board to look at.

http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html

Jawge

Badger, a wood that's going to fail as a bow in less than 1000 shots(or 10,000 for that matter) is not adequate bow wood in my opinion. If I needed to use it in a survival situation, I would, but that's not the case here, so I'm going to apply the time I have to only the best osage, yew, and a select few others I can find. I used to experiment with all kinds of woods, some that I still have never heard of anyone else trying. Those days are over... for the most part.

I also understand that the bow's design must suit the properties of the wood used, but if in order for a bow to survive, those properties require it to be wider, flatter, and longer than I want it to be... it's not good enough. I'm not judging anyone elses choices or values, just stating my own. If I can't make one of the best hunting bows I've ever made from a piece, in a style of my choosing, I'm probably not going to look twice at it.

There may be a considerable difference in how you and I determine a bow's worth. I judge my bows by many criteria, and they "hold their own", or I burn them... and I've never used a chronograph to aid in that determination.

You made roughly 50 bows in less than a half a year? Average two a week, every week. That's great. But there's NO WAY I could make bows at that pace and maintain the quality I demand. Heck, it would take me the better part of a week to adequately shoot them in and finish them out. Besides that, my bowmaking is more relaxed, tranquil, a form of therapy for me now. More art and personal connection, less science and production than it used to be.... and it never WAS much about that.

I guess I'm different from a lot of folks. Different priorities when it comes to bowmaking. I suppose I COULD make a bow in a couple of hours out of a board, but why would I WANT to? I do this because I enjoy the journey I share with each bow and I wouldn't enjoy it in the express lane. I take my time and strive to make each bow a unique, beautiful, durable, sweet-shooting hunting companion that will last the rest of my days... each one better than the last and the best I'm capable of.

Nothing against those who can, or must, but I simply can't get to where I'm going in less than a day's time by way of Lowes :^)

Lets re-focus. As I see it, Brad Smiths' advice is for those having difficulties building a bow. He outlines an inexpensive, readily available method which can aid learning and success.

Looks like we are still fighting the whitewood vs osage battle. I was around for the first skirmish. Many and, probably everyone else, on this thread wee not around here then. A lot of people left the LW over it. Badger, can speak for himself but that 1000 shot bow was made from poplar. That's an accomplishment because poplar is a terrible bow wood in log or board form. A well made red oak or hickory board bow can last longer than that. Much longer. I've had osage staves that never made it off the rope and pulley in one piece because of knots and other imperfections. Osage can be a very difficult wood to use. The outcome and how long the bow will last is never certain for any bow. To assume that bows of yew and osage will last longer than bows from whitewoods is not based on fact but hearsay. I love osage but it only grows in a very limited part of the US. BTW I've never made a bow of any wood in 1.5 hours. It takes me that long to lay t out. LOL. Jawge

i just want to say thanks for all the great input,,,thanks again,, and best on your bowmawking,,b

Jeff, quality has very little to do with time spent. I seldom do chrono testing anymore but still do on occassion for various reasons. A good example, last night about 2:30 pm I grabbed a stave, like you i do this because it is relaxing and therapuetic, by 3:30 I had chased a ring on the back and roughed out the bow, by 4:30 the bow was tillered to just about brace height and I put the bow in a cawl to reflex it and shape it up. By 5.00 I was done heat treating and left it till right now where I will go outside brace it and final tiller it. Experience allows us to skip a lot of steps and move quickly inbetween steps without rushing. My big rush in bow making comes in the final tillering stages, the goal is always the same no set. Never accomplish this 100% but I find it very intense working toward this. I also enjoy the shooting in with a new bow. One of the biggest bow killers I know of is the slow tedious process of excersizing a bow thats not tillered properly, I take a few scrapes, give the bow a few tugs, few more scrapes and continue this till I feel I am just about at full draw then put in on a tiller tree. I will usually spend about an hour sipping on coffee and sitting in my yard chair doing 90% of the tiller. I don't rush any stage, it just doesn't take that long. When I get done I want to have a bow that didn't loose any weight due to bending the wood, all the weight loss should have come only from removing wood. I can do this by feel now, 5 years ago I would have to measuree mu progress. I gave a bow to Ibex last week, sapwood backed osage, stave was too thin to remove sapwood. I handed him a 500 grain arrow to test it with and it was hitting 214 fps and Steve does not have a fast release. I am certainly not going to apologise for my quality, experience just makes things go faster. As far as 3rd string bow woods, poplar, soft maple, red cedar, and many others I would put in this class. They will make a serviceable bow but you can't expect them to last, thats why they are 3rd string. They will shoot just as fast as osage while they do last. Often bow makers just enjoy building bows, if a wood is inexpensive and easily accessable why should he not use it? I get sick and tired of everyone telling everyone else what they should be doing. Do what ever the hell makes you happy as long as it isn't hurting anyone else.

hear hear, badger! (What makes you happy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else)

a slight correction for Dire Wolf; it is possible to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. An example sat in consulting company Arthur D Little's lobby for decades, as an example of their chemical genius. Management genius not so much, went belly up with much of my pension :-( rest would fit in that silk purse..wonder where it went?

I got a little aggravated in my last post but the truthy is I really like all you guys and appreciate whatever aspect of bowyering it is that you are contibuting. I believe in our own ways we make bows to satisfy that creative side of us. Wood bows offer several aspects of appeal to creative men. Artists can take joy in their ability toshape the wood and creat something of beauty, while craftsman take pride in learning and practicing use of their tools to create an effective weapon. My personnal appeal is trying to learn the language of the wood, getting every possible ounce of energy out of a pice of wood is challenging and finding creative ways to do this is a large part of the appeal. Before we can decide how much energy we are trying to get out we have to know how to figure out how much potential energy thier is to start with, and then we have to be able to identify all the areas we are loosing it. The design we choose will determine how much energy a bow will store and how well we execute that design will determine how efficiently that stored energy is transferred to the arrow. Unlike fiberglass wood is subject to an energy loss called hysterisis. For many years I have heard from the experts that this is unavoidable. They clain internal friction in wood sucks up about 10% or more of the energy, some claim as high as 20%. My personnal backyard research indicates that most of this is avoidable if we don't stress the wood past it's elastic limits durring the tillering stages. The challenege is to create a set of circumstances that make this possible. The creative part comes in by discovering and developing methods that will allow us to not only monitor the condition of the wood but also give us something concrete to base our design principles on. I try to use a little science to develop methods I can use as a craftsman so I don't have to fool with science once I sit down to make a bow.

I am in the process of making my first selfbow out of ash. I work on it with two other guys on Tuesday nights only as we are all married and have families to tend to. We work on our bows for about three hours and it has been a real work in progress. My bow has been described by the other two guys (who are experienced self bow makers ) as a charactor bow. I ask if the bow has charactor or the bow maker is the charactor and they laughed and said, both.

The bow has some string follow in it. I am at the stage where I have short draw shot it and it throws an arrow pretty good.

She ain't pretty but I think she is going to dance.

It has been a lot of work and I sure sweat a lot working with the hand tools but I have really enjoyed my Tuesday nights learning this "self bow" thing.

Thanks to everyone that has posted here.

Thats pretty much how I made my first selfbow except I also used a scrapper as well as a rasp but I went very slow. I came out with a 50#@28 I somehow miss measured the fades and have them at 9" instead of 6" but it shoots nice but I cannot seem to quiet it down. Beaver balls, yarn several other materials cannot take out the string thump so it has become a fun stump shooter after having several deer jump the string. I also glued on a piece of Poplar for the grip.

I have found better grained Oak at Lowes instead of Home Depot

well a couple of suggestions on the noise,,, I am just guessing,,,maybe the arrow is not tuned right,, maybe you could shave off a bit where the arrow passes,,,,,I dont know what weight arrow you are using,, but maybe a little heavier would help too,,,,deer can jump the string,,, even with the most quite bow,,, so good luck on that,,, just try to get a little closer and hope for the best,,,

Well as a fairly new aspiring bowyer I look at it this way. Every single rasp swinging knuckle dragger on here can go down to the lumber store and try their hand at making a bow right now today or at the least by tommorow. If it is a disaster they will learn alot and make a better one the next day. That makes a lot more bowyers and that is good for trad.

I(knuckle dragging rasp swinging) cannot do that with osage or yew without spending more money to buy a stave off ebay or somesuch. If i am lucky I know a farmer and can harvest my own then i have to cut/split/dry and understand all that entails first.

I have even been offered an osage stave and while grateful, i would do that until I have tried a few boards and learned not do do certain things that kill a bow quickly.

Using osage tomato stakes is just painful.

Besides a lesser wood teaches you quicker, osage can be made real ugly and forgive you. Yes less frusterating, but also less proficient.

I do have an osage plank that I wish badger would come over and show me how to find a bow in it!

BF

Osage all the way for me. I have a 50# pine bow that I built from a 2x6 from home depot. Will it shoot ? yes and kill a whitetail deer at 15yds. But does it compair to osage not hardly.Am I Jim Hamm no but I do have over a hundred under my belt.IMO Tim Baker is a bowyer that can build a bow out of almost anything yet I have never met the man.The american native indian built bows out of what they had avalible for the most part I believe. and so with that been said if all you have is a board from home depot to make a bow and you want make a bow get it and get busy. the challenge is in the wood. Good Luck and may your arrows always hit ther mark.

Arvin

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