I am looking to anyone who may have some credible info on the performance of the asian/steppe bows and there performance vs the western style longbow,recurve and the modern rd longbow.

I am seriously considering making the switch but want to make sure that I am being as ethical as possible in the woods.

The comparisons must be lb for lb or close for obvious reason. Recurve and longbows tend to be heavier in modern times anyway to that of the horsebow.

I currently have a Leon Stewart Slammer, with is appropriately named cuz it hits like a hammer.

Any constructive comments would be great.

Or you can be ethical and shoot slow arrows from a Home Depot board bow as well.It ain't the bow that screws things up.;)

I here all kinds of claims of performance ect about the asian bows.It never comes to light when a crony is around and weight and draw lengths are kept the same.Sure some bows are faster than others of any kind but when it is all put to apples/apples comparisions it is not enough to worry about.jmo

There'e no "magic" to the horsebow design.

I love thm, and I enjoy shooting them,but, they are just bows. A well made on will shoot well, a poorly made one won't. They won't blow the doors off other designs,

They do 'in somecases' tend to be much lighter physically, and therefore a pleasure to shoot and carry.

They also have very sexy lines and beautiful cosmetics, again in some cases.

However, they are not mystical and have no inborn ability to shoot faster, or further than other bows.

As stated above, shoot what you want and have fun. It doesn't matter what others think.

Well that is good to hear. I know that the majority of the performance with be up to me mastering the thumbring, but we were brought up to be as ethical as possible in regards to the prey that we chase and before I dive head first wanted to make sure that Im not taking an unnecessary risk.

Horsebows here I come!!!

gorillabows-a well made Asian style bow will generally out perform a well made Westen bow it is called physics. Now I am not saying that is true of all the Grozer/Kassai/Seven Meadows etc... but a Spitfire, Hwarang (Blue Lake's bows), and Saluki will without a doubt perform better than most western style longbows and recurves. The static tips (siyahs) are like levers and don't come into play until the last part of the draw esentially providing the same thing as the compound bow provides. On a well made bow it almost feels like the bow has a let off. That being said these bows are SENSITIVE if you string them improperly you WILL twist a limb. If you do not have the proper form it will be like you are aiming at the sun. To be good with the thumb draw you must practice and be committed to it everyday. It will be like relearning archery all over again.

Speed is not everything ACCURACY is I have taken more game with with the thumb draw and Asian style bows then any other type of bow but that is because I am accurate with the thumb draw not because their is any type of magic with these bows. As the saying goes it's not the bow it is the monkey who flings the arrows. gorilla if you have any questions about the thumb draw or worries just pm me.

jbl, I hate to disagree,but, Asia style bows don't necceddarily out perform western style bows. They cannot be compared to longbows because they are not longbows.

The same physics of the siyahs is used in modern recurves. They are simply static tips.

The twisting of the limbs i not a physical chararcterisitic of a well made Asian bow. If the limbs are properly made, you are no more likely to twist the limbs on an Asian bow then any other.

There have never been any tests conducted that compare apples to apples showing that an Asian style bow outperforms other recurve designs of equal quality.

The rason that SOME Asian bows feel as if they have a let off on them is the way the limbs bend. Harold Groves was building his Spitfire recurve that way in the late '40's.

Really, it isn't like re-learning archery because proper form is proper form period. Chris Constantine at Spitfire Horsebows and I have discussed this at length on more than one occassion. You are only changing your draw style and possibly your anchor.

As I stated above, I love these bows. I love building them and I love shooting them, however, they are just bows. Either well made or not.

I agree with JBL - I am not sure about speed but the siyahs acts like levers and the bows feel like they almost have a let-off making them the smoothest drawing type of bows. The Saluki I shot yesterday was sooo smooth and it felt lighter than 41#. Plus, they are short which makes them ideal in the brush.

Jhoneil,

Which Saluki model did you test shoot? And how long was it (amo length)?

By the way, are you planning any new awesome bow projects? :)

What is apples to apples? You are comparing a style of bow vs another style of bow just like if you compared a compound to a regular stickbow. If the Asian bow is well made it WILL outperform a Western style recurve of the same weight if it is shoot in the style it was DESIGNED to shoot. Like I said physics dictates how these bows react. Now I believe with the static recurved tips (siyahs) you do get more mechanical advantage then you would with a working recurve you can actually feel the difference. Again that is on a well made bow many of the all glass covered with leather do not have this smoothness or the illusion of a let off.

The Saluki guys can chime in because many shoot their bows against the so called other "top of the line" recurves and get better performance pound for pound from their Salukis. Again that is a high end bow. I have a Kassai Panther (46# @ 30")which is the top of the line non-laminate bow for him and I have shoot against some "custom" made recurves and she does more than hold her own.

The one advantage of an Asian style bow is if you pause or hold at your anchor is that it "feels" lighter than a regular stick bow. The sight picture is different because you have no arrow in the way when you are looking at your target. Another good thing is a bow without a shelf can be shot either right or left handed.

About limb twist if you don't string a true Asian bow (horn composite) properly you WILL twist the limb and it will have to be balanced. That is just a fact and why many bows are heated or strung with special blocks of wood. As Chris says "these bows do not suffer fools easily". That is one reson why he and other bowyers have you call them before you string the bow for the first time.

Bottom line THEY ARE JUST PLAIN FUN. I really don't care if they are any "better" or "worse" than a Western bow I just enjoy shooting them. I always get a "kick" out of people's faces when you show up with what looks like a "kids" bow and it spits an arrow like a dart.

I was in a traditional tournament yesterday - I came in first place in the recurve class btw;) - And there was a guy there with a Saluki bow. He was very proud of it and let us shoot it. It's a Damascus model. It seems like it's about 48" from tip to tip. Nice bow - a little too wide on the limbs but I guess that is perfect for a glass bow.

I was working on a new bow and it twisted on me while I was pulling it so now I am going back to a re-design. Doh!

Jhoneil what bow did you shoot in the tournament and was it with a thumb draw?

Why do you use a thumb ring shooting Asian bows? Is it because they are so short a regular 3 finger release doesn't work as well?

Jhoneil,

I'm guessing that you meant that the string length plus the tips was about 48"? The Damascus model doesn't come in 48 inch AMO length but in 52, 54 and 56.

Subtract about 4 inches from each model length and that will approximately be the string length.

The bow length did play a part to why the thumb draw developed. I think and this is just a theory is the way the thumb draw "locks" the arrow against the arrow pass on the bow allowed for an easier way of holding the arrow while on horse back. Another thing is the thumb ring serves as somewhat of a "caliper"/release aid so the release is very smooth compared to conventional finger release.

I feel that the one of the biggest assets, based on my minimal understanding, is that the thumbring is such a crisp clean release everytime, and the fact that in war, or hunting, the arrow really is not seen due to being on the opposite side of the bow, which helps facilitate the instincts to act alone.

You guys tell me if Im wrong or not but I think these are the great advantages of the thumb draw and asian bow.

By the way I got off the phone with James Parker and he is holding my new bow for me till next week. I cant wait.

I really think that we need to do some comparisons. This needs to be documented one way or another.

Jhoneil....do you have any asian style bows that you could reasonably compare to that titan you won that tournament with?

I have a 72# stewart slammer ( for sale by the way) and it is lighting fast, for a long bow?

I would be more than happy to chrono it if someone has a asian bow that is the weight to compare with.

We should have this documented somehow.

James is a GREAT guy and his bows are also really nice. You are lucky.

ONe more thing, but I believe that the all time flight record was with a turkish bow, if that is truly the case then that has to say something to the performance, right?

JBL, Yeah, I feel like Im very fortunate and I think that you are the one that refered me to him a little while ago when I was first looking at them. What a standup guy he was to deal with. Cant wait to get proficient with it. I have done some practicing with other bows.

The Turkish flight bow is an extreme version of the Asian bow. They use very light weight "sewing needle" arrows and an overdraw device. They are very short, sensitive weapons. Overall pretty cool stuff.

I have a Grozer that is 60# - I can't pull that much weight with my thumb. Darn thing is fast tho. it's a glass laminated bow. I don't have a cronograph so I can't measure the speeds.

Slowbow - you might be right on the length. I was not carrying a tape measure at the time ;)

JBL - there was no Asian/thumbring class in the shoot. If there was, I would definitely competed with one of my bows. I actually used a Titan recurve from TradTech archery. Really fun shoot and I was surprised to find out that I won. Lots of really good shooters there. A woman actually outscored me but fortunately, she was in the women/recurve class. hehehe

Congrats GorillaB. James seems to be a great guy to deal with and the bow should be awesome.

Jhoneil, How much weight do you pull typically with you thumb?

jbl, we essentailly agree as far as the performance of the bows is concerned.

By shooting the bows the "way they were designed" I assume you mean shooting with a thumb draw. If that's the case, then no I don't know that they will out perform other bows. As I said before, I've seen no documentation to that affect.

When I say "apples to apples' I mean same draw length, draw weight, and arrow weight per pound of draw. That is the only way to tell. Asian bows are not that radically different from glass recurves that have been made for eons.

As for release, the thumb draw is like any other method. A static release will net lower speeds than a dynamic release where the draw hand never stops pulling. That is physics also.

Do I believe the thumb draw can be smoother ? Absolutely. One reason being you have fewer body parts to get off the string smoothly. However, these bows were not universally used with a thumb draw.

I feel that they do have some advantages. As I sad before, I thoroughly enjoy them.

However, until I, or someone else, does some nose to nose comparisons, I'm not going to be on the "out performs all others bandwagon"

Gorillabows, you are gonna love that bot I'm bettin'. Enjoy it.

I can go as high as 45# and shoot comfortably. I can pull higher but accuracy starts to suffer. For practice, I like bows that are around mid 30s to low 40s. The Saluki I shot yesterday was 41#@28" and I might have been pulling it to 31". It felt really comfortable and I think I can shoot that bow all day.

I think most people who shoot with the thumb draw shoot at around the 35-50lb range. I like Jhoneil like a bow in the 40lb range.

Another thing that can not be overlooked or overstated is the ring is EVERYTHING. It must fit properly and comfortably otherwise shooting will be really uncomfortable and you risk damaging your thumb. Plus it just won't be any fun, unless you are into pain:) I just made a new ring and didn't file a spot down and boy did it hurt when i drew back for the first time with the thing. I just was in too much of a rush a skimped on quality control.

All very good info. Thanks to everyone who had some input. Cant wait to get started.

I am with you on the importance of the fit and finish of the ring, becomes even more important as the poundage increases. Have a Saluki horn bow on the way and it is 80# @ 29-30" sure hope that my ring works well with it. I have shot with a well fitting ring up to the 60# range with no problems, you know that there used to be guys shooting horn bows well above 100# range using thumb rings. So it can be done and they were shooting a load of arrows to stay in shape to pull those 100# plus draw weights. Oberon

P.S. It is my firm belief that a good well made Asian style horn bow pound for pound will outperform a traditional recurve or long bow , may not be by much but enough. I will test my 80# Saluki Mughal crab horn bow against my 80# Frank SanMarco long bow when I have them both in hand and let you know what I come up with. From what I understand from well acknowledged sources that the horn bows do not come into their best performance range till they are around 60# and above and even better when they start approaching the 80-100# draw weight

Oberon it would be great if you would let us know what you find out when you test those bows. And it would be great if you would post some pics too:-)

It is of great interest to be how the ancients were able to develop such a great performing bow, and such a great release technique, it really speaks to there ingenuity.

How do you view the performance of the asian hornbows to the modern day/modern material replicas?

The reason some horn bows shoot better in heavier poundage is because some designs have those gigantic siyahs that the limbs have to move. Imagine a 20# ILF limb and then adding weight on the tips. This will slow the limbs down significantly. Of course if you have a 60# limb and add the same weight on the tips, the effect is not going to be as noticeable. So the solution for making an efficient low poundage bows is to make siyahs light and thin.

Here is a comparison done for the history channel comparing a horn composite by Lucas against a long bow. Maybe apples and oranges but interesting to me. I love the sound the horn bow makes on release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGcYGwqb3So

Somehow all the people who shoot asiatic composites and claim super performance will never put their bows against western style bows in a performance test with scientific equipment on an "apples to apples" footing. I only saw numbers from a composite horsebow published once, and they were shockingly slow (definitely not faster), if I remember correctly. If they really performed better, it would be common knowledge and we would all shoot them. It's simply not the case.

Well, I think that it is easy to ascertain that a recurve bow performs better than a longbow. Why?

Because of the recurve limb, and the stored energy that it posseses. Now if you recurve those limbs some more, and add some levers to it, and then use a very quick and clean release i.e. the thumbring..........you have a better performing draw, but the point is that I have not seen the numbers or any video.

But, if the numbers did nothing but come out the same, I believe the thumbdraw and asian technique could be superior in the hunting field. It was definatly superior in battle.

That was great vid that was referenced by Gaur.

I do think that it is hard to compare Asiatic bows to a modern recurve for several reasons. The release itself when properly done is so dynamic to say that if this bow was shoot the same as that bow it would be faster/slower is just not an argument because the Asian bow is just shot differently. A "shooting machine" could not duplicate the release. Another thing is a true horn, wood, sinew bow in my experience does outperform our modern materials so the fiberglass composites we call Asian are not the true representation of what an Asian bow of ancient times. The static recurve tip has proved to provide a faster more efficient bow than a normal working recurve, they fell out of vague when fiberglass took over because they are more difficult to build. Look at the "speed demons" in the modern recuve world the majority of them are either static or semi working. These bows were also made for a special purpose and when you think about were quite ingenious. The siyahs also allowed for a shorter bow to have a very smooth pull by changing the string angle.

Within this so called Asian bow area you are grouping in a vaired style of bow. Kind of like what the "modern" longbow grouping has become. From Oberon's Indian Crab bow to the Chinese bows which were longer bows. Some have string bridges which allow the string to react quicker upon recovery others do not have that innovation. The size of the siyahs also play a large part in how fast the bow is, some of the massive siyahs as jhoniel mentioned require larger draw weights to relize their efficiency. All that mass on some of the "Magyar" bows actually slows them down and the bows also have hand shock.

I don't know why people are always so senstive about this issue; like I said before it doesn't matter to me if they are better or not I just like shooting them; kind of like people who like shooting Hill style bows.

Well...the original question in this thread was how does the performance of Asian bows compare to that of "western" bows.

The answer is still,there's no difference to speak of.

There is no credible evidence that Asian bows outpeform western bows. Ther is no credible eveidence that westen bows out perform Asian bows.

None of the arguments provided are valid for not comparing the 2 types on an "apples to apples" basis.

There are no more different styles and designs of Asian bows than there are styles of western bows.

Any bow that is faster with a dynamic release is still going to be faster with a static release. Any bow that is faster with a light arrow is going to be faster with a heavy arrow. That's how it is and it can't be changed.

It doesn't matter to me what any one shoots either but, it gets confusing when people sight performance advantages that are undocumented and unproven.

Like WI-chemist noted, he only documented testing I've seen done was by Pete Ward with one of Chris Constantines bows and the results were not good at all.

James, for the record Home Depot board bows can be faster than selfbows made from osage and whitewoods. I know because I've made selfbows from boards and about every other typical selfbow wood and some not so typical woods. The magic is not in the wood but is cradled in the arms of the bowyer. I would think that saying of mine applies to Turkish bows as well. :) Jawge

My point about comparing apples to apples these bows right wrong or indifferent were designed to perform better with a longer more dynamic release. There was a reason the Poles, Russians, and Turks used these bows into the 18th century. There is also a reason these bows ran over Europe from the East. At hunting weight with modern materials are they better? Who knows, but at warbow weight these bows literally conquered the world. The longbow stopped in France. The Asian Horsebow ruled from the Pacific to the border of Poland/Germany and would have ruled to the Atlantic if they did not voluntarily withdraw.

What design is better more efficient who cares it is a hobby have fun.

I was not in any way trying to start a heated conversation, especially between thumbring shooters. Simply asking the question due to me being new and wanting to learn and get to know a few here on the website who maybe able to give some insight.

Killing is killing.....either it be man or animal, and I just feel that the ancients must have known something, and like was just stated.......if the mongols had not willingly quit there invasion of europe, due to the death of the great khan..........................we would all look very different.

Please google "Adam Karpowicz". He is a bowyer specialized on composite bows, mainly on Turkish bows. He is also the author of a book titled "Turkish Ottoman Bows-Manufacture and Design". Detailed info, especially comparison with the western bows can be found in his articles as well as in his book.

The Asian bows have a development-line and it would be wiser to compare the "best" representatives of two schools. Turkish bows -not only the flight bows- are the peak of Asian school of bowyery. Turkish flight bows were like the Formula 1 cars and used under extreme strain, but the more "overbuilt" war bows -"tirkesh bows" as we call them- are also amazing in performance. In his articles Karpowicz usually compare them with the best English longbows made of yew.

The outperformance of composite bows starts at a draw weight of 65-70 pound (for Turkish bows). For higher draw weights wooden bows should be made higher in mass but if it comes to high-weight composites the increase of mass/achieved draw weight is negligable. That makes bows with low-mass limbs and therefore such a bow would be more efficient. So, in today's "low-weight bow conjuncture" (bows used for recreational purposes including hunting)bows of both schools are easily comparable and probably there is not too much difference between the western and eastern representatives. However, if you'd compare a wooden bow with a Turkish composite in 130# of draw weight, there is remarkable difference (as showed by Karpowicz).

Please let me remind that Middle Eastern armies consisted of professional soldiers who were well-trained for years. A research of Karpowicz (2005 and published a few years later) showed that some of the bows in Topkapi Palace Museum's collection would draw well 240#. Besides, the author believes that bows between 90-180# were used for military purposes and heavier ones were for buildig and/or demonstrating stength and skill.

In today's popular draw weights and modern materials, design and material properties make the difference. I have synthetic material Turkish bow replicas that don't shoot as fast as the modern hunting recurves. However, well-made composites are easily comparable even with their modern counterparts.

Interesting stuff.When i make a selfbow, and it ends up with to much set i sometimes add short siyahs,or static tips, or what ever you want to call them.I did this a while back with an american elm bow,and it turned out really nice.Pretty fast, and smooth to draw,and over all length is still only 54 inches with a brace height of only 4.5 inches.I do not know if any of you guys have tried this, but makes a bow like a different bow, or should i say it saves alot of my poorly made selfbows from going into the garbage can.This is a 2009 thread,but i am writing this in May 2018. If you have tried the above please reply as i would like to know your results.If you have not tried this give it a shot ,and you may, or may not like the end result.In any case i would like to know your findings.When i shoot 3d or winter league,and guys see the bow it becomes a conversation piece, because it looks good ,and shoots pretty good.I got the idea from looking at Marc St Louis static tip bows. Reply and we can start a new thread started. Thanks.

József Monus Holds more flight records than any man and some will never be broken. I have one of his bows. I suspect most like to write better than read and opinions are already formed. I don't expect much to change. The bow is only 47" long unstrung. I shoot it 3 under. It has no problem reaching a 30" draw. It has the V blocks at the base of th syhas--unneeded weight--??? Perhaps? I thought they would cause loud string slap. It is very quick and extremely quiet with no string silencers.It has no horn or sinew. There is something in the design. No theories, he said she said, but personal experience. I also have many pictures of him competing around the world and at the Salt Flats this year where he set more records.Doubtful many are still reading but happy to answer any questions if you are. Take care, >>>----> Ken

That should have said may never--instead of will never. Sorry. Nevertheless he set the bar high and keeps breaking his own records. Semantics your only comment?? Golly Gee. Points proven. I will never understand what is important to you. I have one of his bows decorated and autographed with the records he set, recorded on it. No big deal--?? Have a nice day.>>>----> Ken

2 bears,there are some really awesome bowyers out there today no doubt.Did not want to start an argument just wanted some answers to my questions.I am no more than a hunter that builds bows,but was curious if anybody ever tried what i said above, and the results.Some of us need all the help we can get as ocr said this of me on another thread.By simply adding short siyahs to some of my bows,it has made them better bows all around.The 80,s and90,s are sometimes referred to as the dead period,but i have been shooting wood longbows and recurves since 1964 and have never stopped.My interest in them is as a hunting tool.When it comes to world records i have no clue.

Bassman you are correct as you have found out there is something in the design. Badger holds several records also. I believe the Monus family has set records with some of his bows. I merely tried to shed a little light on the so called "horse bow" design. Theories and ideas seem to be so set in stone that they can't be swayed by personal experience or facts. The design can be shorter and still be faster and quieter. What is not to like? In my case thumb rings or shooting from the other side don't get it. I also tie on a chunk of leather or floppy rest. I am just not consistent enough shooting off the hand. Besides if I nock the arrow to low in relation to my hand it is painful even through a glove. Add a Nocking point and rest and they make very fine hunting bows. Just my 2¢ worth but I usually get change. >>>----> Ken

I would think that Lucas would be a great source of information in a comparison. He builds or has built both types of bows, My first Saluki was a bamboo backed osage, slight D/R longbow that shot almost as well as my current bamboo back and belly model of the same bow. He is one of the finest bowyers of our time and a rare mix of east and west... has anyone asked him? I have hacked out selfbows and backed bows for years and know his bows are designed to shoot well, as is my JD Jones BBO.

2 bears you are right they do make a nice hunting bow with a nice big cut out arrow rest, and a consistent nock point.I mean i know about badger now because he has answered alot of my questions on other threads.I can tell he is a heck of a good guy willing to help anybody who asks question, and wants to learn.He lives on the west coast, i live in western Penna.He does not know me from Adam,but when i ask a question he gives me an answer.Beating world records by 50 yds he has to fall into the elite of the elite as a bowyer.

Badger made some English longbows for the Monus family last year, and one also for a young protégé. They all set new records with those bows even though they first shot them at the Flats. Steve definitely knows how to build self bows.

Being specific about where in Asia you are talking about when it comes to bows does not take into account the influence of the Qing Dynasty across most of Asia. Also, the Modern Asian bow is mostly a hodgepodge of blended styles and bowyers imaginations and hardly fits any specific criteria except for siyahs, and even those are missing on quite a few efforts. The Manchurian effect took over the true Mongol bow centuries ago, for instance.

larryhatfield, if you are the same guy that ram rodded for damon howatt and martin they made some excellent designed recurve bows.that damon howatt hunter is the bow that i base every other bow on. i have made that design with boo core and carbon limbs.fast fast fast.did not mean to get off subject.

Yup, the same. Designed for 52 years and built bows every day I was there. Office work after the rest went home.

Elderly OCR you have quoted nearly everything I said. You have me wondering did I even state any facts? I thought I tried to shed some light on the so called "horse bow design" and its attributes,some personal experience,and some flight records. Maybe I left those parts out.Oh Well I tried. >>>-----> Ken

Here is an interesting article on the performance of Turkish composite bows. Pretty impressive what they were able to do even 500 years ago.

http://www.atarn.org/islamic/Performance/Performance_of_Turkish_bows.htm

Of course you are right they have weights and classes. The fact that Józef Monus holds so many records and videos of him shooting hundreds of yards from castle walls,the salt flats,and all over the world with "horse bows" are readily available. The fact is he builds "Horsebows",+ the fact that I own 2 of them. My bows are very quick and deadly quiet as well as works of art. All of this seems to be getting lost among the small details.I am out.>>>----> Ken

Jozsef is in Turkey right now competing for the "Challenge Cup". He built bows that conform to rules of the competition. The Turkish officials that monitor this competition changed the rules re: bow construction in an effort to block him this year. We will see if his efforts are up to the challenge with competitors from all over the world.

By the way, Jozsef's son, Laszlo, set a new target bow world record with a stretched out Magyar bow, 35#, 455.13 meters. Tony Osborn, shooting a new Border CH at 50# set a new record for the 50# target bow class at 552.66 meters. You do the math on the possibilities of 15# more in Laszlo's hands. The Border CH produced 11.053 M/#, and the Monus bow, 13.003M/#.

Jozsef strikes again! In his own words--

So we fought together today! You and me, us!

We fought together with your faith. Your desires, your hungarian pride! And.. And we're going to give it to you! And the great opponents have stood against me as I would have loved. So I can tell the big ones I beat everyone in the world! And... You know, we won again!

We've defeated everyone in the world who wants to fight our flag! Simple, steadfast, together, without fatigue, uncompromising! For a flag! For a nation! For our fate!

6 in Istanbul. You are the winner of the 50-Pound, most populous competition in the world cup contest.

You!!! My friends without interest!

I am so happy that there were more than people who stood by me before the race!

I would like to ask you!!!!

Details coming soon! But now I'm physically and psychologically exhausted and I want to sleep till morning!

I'll be back soon.

Friendship with the wolf!

I recently ordered a Grozer biocomposite Hungarian bow, 35#, 62". I'll get it soon. First time for this style of bow. I don't really care if it shoots faster or slower than my recurves. I just wanted to see what it is like to shoot one of these bows. I'm half Hungarian but I chose the Hungarian model b/c it is like many others, but longer.

I also was considering a Border bow and actually got an older model called a Khan, which I suppose was their version of an Asian horse bow. I was not impressed with how it shot but it does look cool. Seems to me that Border design is heavily influenced by Asian and other horn bows so I thought I should see what the original is like... although what I ordered is not EXACTLY original.

These bows are an important part of archery history so I'm keeping an open mind and interest in shooting one. In the same sense I've tried longbows, even though I usually shoot recurves. I'd also like to try a Penobscot bow, a baleen backed bow, a yew self bow, maybe a primitive bow from Africa or South America... they are all bows! However, now I'm on a kick of getting vintage Howatt bows after having mostly vintage Bear bows. Larry, your old bows are fantastic!

Thanks for chiming in larry. Is that enough facts and comparisons for you? I love discussing bows and comparisons but semantics is boring.>>>---> Ken

it is my understanding that hitting 200 fps with any traditional bow,, 10 gpp,,, is a feat, and that the best bows of different designs are close or can do this,, but that most great shooting bows have a limit,,and it is about 200 fps,, let me know if that is still about right,, I have read the thread and didnt see any chrono comparisons,, of course someone with a gifted release can outshoot most,, so it is not always the bow ,, but alot has to do with the shooter,,

Check Out Joel Turner, he uses a Thumb ring with modern bows (he hunts all the time with them). If all you want is a performance advantage that you think the thumbring provides then that is a easy way to achieve it.

As far as the debate on which has more performance, since I normally shoot 30 yards and under, it makes no difference. This whole argument is like that with pistols, yep there are a ton that outperform the 1911, but that is what I will take any day. Something to be said about slow and fat :)

Jozsef just beat everybody in the world that competed in that class so give credit were credit is do.You can not do any better than that.His mastery at building bows, and shooting them puts him at the apex of the game.The way hatfield talked about Jozsef in his mind he knew he would win that tournament,and the turks tried to block him.Outstanding as 2 bears has said of his mastery as a bowyer,and he was shooting a horse bow,horsebow,horse bow,horsebow,HORSEBOW,They were ,and still are amazing weapons even by todays standards.Some people in this world like to argue just for the sake of arguing,or are just plain block headed.hatfield and 2 bears thanks for introducing me to another elite of the elite bowyersof the world.

You are right about terrible reading comprehension. You mentioned a bigger sample. I have plenty of examples and bows but apparently they are wasted on deaf ears. MANY records all over the world in weight classes from 3o pounds to over a hundred. Long distance records set by wife,son,and himself. József has no equal in modern times,nor in history as far as we can tell. It is quite obvious to you that it is all done with an inferior design HORSE BOW,inferior materials,inferior bow making skills. They haven't even been able to regulate him out of contention. Perhaps if you would sacrifice a few minutes of your argumentative,semantic teaching time to just Google his name or watch a few youtube videos. Then you could point out his errors. I am sure József would appreciate any help you have to offer. You have a good day now. >>>----> Ken

Bassman you are quite welcome. I hope to always be as quick to defend and befriend anyone in the archery world as I am to criticize the detractors. It does seem to have paid off handsomely with some very good and well accomplished archery friends. Thank You for backing me up.>>>----> Ken

ok wouldnt chrono comparisons tell alot,, when flight shooting so much depends on the arrow,,and release, but if shooting though a chrono with shooting machine,, a comparison of performance could be seen,, just asking,, I understand just enough to confuse myself,:)

I had my chrony out last week. My Samick Mind 50 carbon 55lbs @ 30" was shooting a 442 grain arrow at 162 fps.

My ILF recurve 47 lbs @ 28" was shooting a 425 grain arrow at 175 fps.

I know its hard to draw any conclusions from this data but I hope you find it helpful.

You have the reading impairment,you are still on the 2009 thread.I started the 2018 thread to see if anyone had tried playing with siyahs with selfbows,and the results.Thats it.You are in the right church ,but the wrong wrong pew.I never did get an answer to my questions.

Patrick, I think someone fell off their horse.

I haven't seen the original question answered or even discussed.

Does anyone have any comparison's

Can you draw a 60lb bow using a thumb ring without hurting yourself, it seems using three fingers is difficult enough, I would imagine pulling that with one digit would hurt.

Well as long as we've all fallen off the original horse horse as well as the new one on this 2nd generation of the thread I will answer a little bit on the last worry bothering some of you:

"Can you draw a 60lb bow using a thumb ring without hurting yourself, it seems using three fingers is difficult enough..."

Oh yes you can. No problem at all. Murat Ozveri ("ela gözlü avci" is his LW handle) has been shooting thumbring into the 90's lb. range. Historically, the Manchu trained up to 200#@whatever and even higher. Typically, the Turkish flight shooters would go up into the 150 lb. range. All with thumb rings, I don't know how heavy the bare naked thumb shooters could go.

I shoot easily into the 60's as far as my thumb is concerned, shoulders, general strength, fine control of the shot itself limit me to 55#@30", preferred "sweet spot" for my thumb release shooting is 42# to about 53# for most of my shooting.

Elderly---is that a clue? In every video I have seen József shooting---wait for it ---he was shooting a so called "HORSE BOW". He was also decked out in leather and furs. The real deal. The bow he sent me is a "HORSE BOW" He sent a picture of it with a dozen other "HORSE BOWS" just completed. I have Black Widow,Bob Lee,Damon Howatt,Martin,Chek-Mate,Howard Hill and even a couple of Bears and Wings. I have your "samples" I have a Turkish bow and 2 Hungarian bows by József, that are less than 4 feet long. Trot out your best to compare. You didn't bother to Google that is plain to see. Pound for pound--inch for inch-the 4 foot bows drawn 30 inches hold their on with all of them any time any place.Can you still not see "(your comparison)"? I am so sorry I am not capable of making it any plainer. Take care,>>>----> Ken

Oh Yeah I forgot. Thanks for the records but I am familiar with them. Notice the field and Asiatic bows smash both the English and American Longbow records by hundreds of yards. I thought we were comparing conventional hand held bows. Now all out flight bows,foot bows,and compounds are another discussion. I don't have any of those for comparison only bows that I hunt with. It has been fun. >>>----> Ken

Ken, in modern flight shooting the longbows are shooting wood arrows while the recurves are shooing carbon fiber. There is a huge difference in sectional density between the two. Longbows are also better equipped to handle the heavier arrows anyway obviously.

I built a bow a few years ago that I think could give Don Browns record a challenge if Josef shoots it this year. A 60 nock to nock osage self bow about 110# @28". I would like to see the bow shot at 26" but Josef prefers the longer draws. I am hoping for at least 500 yards from it.

Hi Badger, I would in no way attempt to take away from your knowledge and abilities with bows. I am well aware of both and we have had wonderful conversations before. I am just put off by Elderly's constant play on semantics and one track mind. I listed my bows I love them all. Now I seem to be obsessed by József whom I merely defended against unfounded statements. I will do the same for you. You and József are in a league of your own and have a mutual respect. I hope he will shoot your bow and set another record for you. I wish you were still feeling like competing as well as Larry. Now he claims to build mostly "Horse Bows" You would think he would want to learn from the best instead of belittling. I have no idea why he would want to mess around with inferior bows. Then again maybe he knows better and just likes to argue or it is personal. In either case I am done with him and so sorry I drug you into this. I surely welcome private communication with you as always. Take care, >>>-----> Ken

I apologize to all. I wasn't aware this was Elderly's thread. I thought it was gorrilabows who also stated " The all time flight record was set with a turkish bow " Notice Elderly didn't join in until after I did. Many here are saying the same thing as I have but he only calls me out for all the exceptions.It seems to be understood who has the comprehension problem. That also was stated by someone else. How ever that may not be the problem either as he only calls me out. Some personal vendetta?? I don't know. I merely stated some personal experiences as did Badger and Larry Hatfield. It was Larry that posted the József pictures and info,yet I have the "obsession" There is no one I have higher regards for than József and Larry. They have both done a lot for me. I believe Badger would say the same.I have read and reread every post here. Very interesting thread sorry if I caused the attempt to spoil it.Take care all.>>>----> Ken

A simple chrono test will be the only way to answer the question, Flight classes all have different rules, arrows, arrow rests, release styles etc.

Pat- Could you please define "Field" bow?

-Thanks!

Pretty simple. BOW i) The Field Bows represents bows commonly used for hunting, 3D, or field competitions, and consist of a handle, riser, and two flexible limbs attached with a single string. ii) The bow may be constructed of a combination of natural and synthetic materials. iii) The minimum bow length is 52 inches (132.1 cm). iv) The bows are measured around the curves on the belly side of the bow at the tips and straight across from imaginary lines intersecting the nock grooves on the back. v) “Keyhole” Target Bows are not allowed. vi) Multi-piece takedowns with variable tiller adjustment are allowed. vii) The bow may have attached accessories such as stabilizers, draw-check indicators (clicker), and sights. viii) Bow draw weights are as follows: ? 35 lbs. (15.9 kg) – Women, Men, and Youth ? 50 lbs. (22.7 kg) – Women, Men, and Youth ? 70 lbs. (31.8 kg) – Women, Men, and Youth ? Unlimited – Women, Men, and Youth B. BOW STRING i) There are no restrictions on the bow string construction or type of materials used. C. RELEASE i) Release is fingers only. ii) Finger protection such as a tab, stall, or shooting glove is permitted. Release aids of any type are prohibited. D. ARROWS i) Arrows, arrow points, nocks, and fletching may be made from any synthetic or natural material. ii) Fletching must consist of feathers or vanes. iii) Vanes shall be those provided commercially. Vanes cannot be altered. iv) Minimum arrow length measured from the floor of the nock to point is 14 inches (35.6 cm). E. ARROW REST i) An adjustable elevated arrow rest with a moveable pressure button is allowed. ii) An overdraw is not allowed. iii) An adjustable elevated arrow rest with moveable pressure button is allowed providing the pressure point is not more than 1-5/8 inches (4cm) inside the throat of the handle (pivot point) of the bow.

The current record holder for unlimited field bow is held by Jozsef Monus, shooting a Magyar bow of his own making. 645.94 meters. NOT HELD BY A WESTER BOW. He also outshot the famous shot of long ago and caused a new stone stele to be placed, in his name. That shot was further than his field bow record, 653 meters.

"Hungarian long distance arch shooter József Mónus sets new world record of 653 m at an international archery tournament held in Ergun city, Inner Mongolia, China.

With a homemade bow and arrow, Mónus smashed all records by over 145 meters including his own previous personal best he set at the same tournament in 2010.

The result has been validated by Mongolian, Chinese and Turkish judges. Tournament organizers erect a new monument in honor of the new world record similar to Eshunkei's record set in 1226. Eshunkei's stone monument called “Genghis Khan's Stone” is on display in St. Petersburg's Hermitage Museum.

The tournament has been attended by more than one hundred competitors from 11 countries.

The tournament's second best result also went to a Hungarian, the 15 year-old Csongor Posta.

In 2010, Mónus broke Eshunkei's record set in 1226 with a new personal best of 603 meters."

Fact are facts. Speculation is guessing.

Thanks Larry- so "Field" bow is basically just any bow, then, as defined by use- just as a "Horse" bow is any bow that can be shot mounted. My bows must be classified as "Garage" bows because most of my personal training is shooting into the garage from the laundry room. If Monus can lean out the window in back of the dryer he will easily beat my downstairs record. But it must be a legal garage bow!... ;-)

C. RELEASE i) Release is fingers only. ii) Finger protection such as a tab, stall, or shooting glove is permitted

So one last serious question: No thumb release allowed? Or does the thumb qualify as a "finger"? And hard thumb ring, vs. say leather thumb guard or bare naked thumb?

He shoots with a leather glove on mostly. I believe that a thumb ring is not described as a release though.

Don's only record still standing is the unlimited recurve regular flightbow. That was a keyhole bow, built by Rulon Hancock, that weighed 138# and was shot with a moveable grip and a forward overdraw that permitted Don to shoot solid carbon needles 14" long. Hardly anyone shoots those bows now, so Don's record will likely stand up for quite a while or forever. All of his other records, including field bow, were smashed long ago. My last post. Hate trollers.

A problem when the curves of the Great Wheels of the cyclic worlds of the Orient that can track the curves of flying arrows meet the linear, straight arrow of time of the West (the world was created, once) that can measure in distance the projection of the arrow's curving flight upon the flat ground of the Earth. There will always be arguments.

See there 2 bears hatfield confirms,and facts are facts,and he is really up on all of this stuff what with showing pics,and giving stats.You were right , some one was wrong.keep building those short horsebows 2 bears as they are awesome weapons time tested and proven.If you do not build you still have jozsef,s bows to shoot and know that you have a weapon that was built by an archer,and bowyer that is arguably the best in the world.

You are still asking questions but you accept no one's answers. In case you missed it. Larry said that was his last post he hates trollers.I just learned another lesson from him.>>>--->Ken

Pat, you have access to the current records, what ever they say is what it is. Just that simple. You really don't need anyone to validate that, just refer to the records.

NOT YOUR THREAD besides you already know it all and listen to no one.

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