I had access to a chrograph over the weekend. My 53 lb osage longbow shot a 461 gn arrow 165,166,165. My draw is right at 28 inches. Is this good, bad or typical?

seems pretty good,, indicates little string follow and good design,,,,, also the tips are probably narrow....

ide say thats great,...spot-on...snake

My fastest straight profile was 179 at 10 grains shot out of a machine. That bow only lasted a few hundred shots before developing a crack in the lower limb. That bow was hot rodded just to see how fast of one I could build. I would say your speed is typical for a slightly overbuilt hunting bow.

I would say the bow weight plus 100 for a good average. In other words a 50# selfbow drawn to 28 will probably hit 150 fps. Of course design means everything.

That bow shooting at that speed should give you good self bow killing power it's all how you use it though no long shots good shot placement take out BOTH lungs or get the heart also if you can. My buddies say a self bow kills slow and I tell them how do you kill fast with any bow. I don't have to blow threw the deer and wound the one standing behind it to kill. Before they say any thing I tell my wheel buds my bow will shoot like a 22 rifle there compounds like a 22mag but my bow will kill just as fast even though I would not dare use a expanding broad head because it might not get both lungs and I wouldn't want that. The big 160grain snuffers give me 500+Gr.on tappered full shaft arrows that I can push to about 165fps with my 62#@28" osage, they look almost to big and might be, but they are razor sharp and will really get some blood flowing when you get a good hit.

was at the first MOJAM with jack Hamm and Tim Baxter and we shot like 75 bows thru a chrono (was more to seee yellow verses white wood) but what we found is that the formular that stout quoted is correct bow wieght plus 100 for a good bow design might get you a little more. I had two shot that weekend and Tim thought I would kill the white wood forst was a hackberry with about two inches of string follow 45@28 and di 147 and a hickory bow made from a pair of axehandles 55@28 and did 160.

Tnx for the comments. I've only built 3 selfbows total and that was my first osage attempt. Ifigured it would get around 150. My hunting arrows are in the low 500 range. Guess the extra 50 gns would slow it down to the range George mentioned.

Bow weight plus 100 only works as a coincidence. The MoJam thing stipulated 50# bows and 500 grain arrows. At 10 grains per pound 160 is probably average. Experienced bowyers, perfect materials, ideal conditions (moisture content) might expect 170. Marc is the exception, perhaps one of a handful of (known) top selfbowyers in the country at 179 for his lifetime best. I would guesstimate your bow at about 158 at 10 gpp, allowing about 1 fps per 10 grains give or take a couple. Not bad at all, particularly if not purposefully optimized for speed.

An arrow traveling 150 fps is going 102 mph. Makes me want to duck. LOL. Jawge

Badger once told me that a strait limbed bow had the potential to shoot 190 at 10 grains per pound. Speeds go up from there with recurves and R&D. You can also figure on gaining about 5 fps on a machine over fingers. If you really want to try to see what you can do, build a hot rod and send it in to Walk the Talk this spring. All bows are tested at 9 and 10 grains per pound at 28" out of a machine.

Dang Marc, 190 at 10 gpp is well into most of the glass bow territory. Sorry if I mischaracterized your results. I'd remembered, incorrectly, Steve's view that 170 was good for straight limbed selfbows.

ok,, on a bow that is shooting 190 fps and drawing 50# with a 5oo grain arrow. would you say ,, most bows shooting like that won't last too long.. if that is the case. how fast should a 50#@28inch wood bow . shoot..straight profile.. and be made to last as well.. hope that makes since.. where is the point of diminishing return .... or the sweet spot

I had never heard that rule of thumb before, but it seems right on! Most of my self bows do shoot their weight + 100 when shooting 10gr/lbs.

190 in his opinion is the absolute max that a strait design can shoot, it has never been done though. Just like a recurve has the potential to shoot faster than a hyrid but noone has been able to do it YET. 170 is good, like I said my bow that shot 179 only lasted a few hundred shots. My shooters are all well below that.

Most of mine average around 160-165 at 10gpp. That's with a 27" draw. I have one that hit 180 and one that was 178 at 10 gpp. Those two are coincidenty the slimmest and hold the most reflex. Both of them are 1-1/4" wide and hold around 2-1/2" of reflex. They both also have VERY slim outer limbs and tips.

I will just give my two cents worth here.

I consider 170 fps with 10 grains to be very good, I like to see my straight limbed self bows finish up fresh at about 172 fps and settle in about 168 fps. Anything over 175 fps with a straight limbed self bow is rare but I have seen some freaks. A simple reflexed straight limbed self bow will sometimes hit the 180 mark but I have not see very many. Perry reflexed backed r/d bows are hitting in the mid 180's now almost routinely and some have hit 190. The fastest self bow I have tested was several years ago, I hit 184 with a slightly reflexed osage bow, it held this speed for a couple of years and finaly broke. Steve

Marc, maybe I missed it but what was poundage on your bow that shot 179? Like I said this is my first attempt with osage. I was primarily concerned with design that wouldn't break and shoot where I wanted it to go.

Within reason, poundage is not relevant. Rather the weight of the arrow, relative to the poundage, factors all bows back to one constant, comparable fps.

Also bear in mind the shooter can add or subtract up to 5 fps or more. So a machine shot bow might run 160, and hand shot the same bow would range from 155 to 165.

I personally find I've done slightly better with lower than average weight bows. I don't have a machine, and a poor loose, but my best r/d backed bow was 170 at 10 gpp hand shot. It was built for mid 30s at 28" from the back of the bow. AMO would have added a fair bit of draw as it was only perhaps 1" deep at the arrow pass and AMO allows 1 3/4".

Speed for speeds sake is a different game. I had trouble with lateral stability on this fast r/d bow, fixing outer limb twist two or three times before it stabilized. It was an extreme case, lots of r/d, dense tropical core and high boo to core ratio and consequently super narrow. I'd rather use a little more width and give up the few fps, within reason.

If you jiggle the draw lenght, arrow weight, selfbows or all natural can shoot up to the 180s without any real fear of premature fatique, or spontaneous dissassembly. So it's all about what you want, slower heavier arrows or faster lighter arrows... just like the glass bow game, or compounders for that matter. I'm not sure I'd advocate running a selfbow at say 7 gpp, or higher with a longer draw, and consequently into the 190s for everyday use and hunting though. But then I don't use glass bows that way either.

i made an osage bow that was identical in shape and dimensions to a bow that brad smith made out of osage and he had it chronoed at 190 fps with a 10gpi arrow around 500 grain at 72 pounds. he shot through a buffalo at the shoulders and only the fletchings caught on the other side.irondawg(kevin)

Pretty good, Ol Dog, pretty good. I have made probably 60 bows and I just finally topped 175 at 10 gpp recently. And that was a hybrid Holmegaard R/D crowned sapling bow with a heat treated belly, basically all my best thinking on that stave. 165 on a "plain" self bow isn't shabby.

In 2011 i built a 50 inch 5 curve hide glue sinew backed with arrow rest cut out 45lb at 25 inch draw black locust bow with 5 inch brace height. Before that i had built more than 50 short selfbows from about every kind of wood that i could get my hands on.I own a chrony, and test all my bows for speed.All the selfbows shot in the low to high 130,s fps at 45 lbs.with a 450 gr. arrow.With the same design on all bows as close as i could get them.The sinew backed locust bow shot the same arrow at 145fps average.The bow still shoots the same as the day that i started shooting it.Whats my point, i have none. I am just sharing some of my lifes experience with bow making.

I dont have a chrono so i would shoot them for distance. 195 yards was the best i pulled out of one which probably around 170 fps or less. It was a sinew backed hickory flat bow.

elderly ocr, your right he is the best,and a guess you are too.

Elderly Ocr,do all of your selfbows shoot above the 10 gr per pound mark with a 500 hundred grain arrow.Say 160 fps 50lb. bow.170 with 60 pound bow.And what has been your best,and Jeff,s best.Just curious,and do you put yourself, and Jeff on the same plane as bowyers like say Tim Baker,Jim Hamm,Paul Comstock,Ed Scott,and others that wrote the books on the subject.If so write the book i will buy it, and read it,and learn all that i can from it.I am very old, but not to old to learn, still trying to make myself a better bassist after 48 yrs. of playing. I know we all reach certain levels of success in life, and i know what your reply meant.Now i will take the high road even though i think you have taken the low road, pardon me if i am wrong.

We are going to have a broadhead shoot at mojam this year. Everyone will be shooting 28" draw and 10 grains per pound. I suspect some names will emerge that we haven't heard much about. Hard to say what the best distance will be but I am looking for several guys to hit over 200 yards.

I agree, Steve. There are a lot of great bowyers around right now and Im sure there are some possible record breakers coming up.

seems average speeds there...seen some that shoot faster but for a well built straight limbed selfbow those are good numbers in my limited opinion and on par with what I have found with mine made by john strunk and joe mattingly (RIP)

keep em sharp,

ron herman

Larry Hatfeild once stated that the arrow is on the string for 19". With certain bows I have seen the evidence that could very well be true. I wonder if there are variables with slefbows that the 19" rule does not apply, as in some more or some less..

Bassman, I think the statement of comparing bowyers is slightly unfair. The Bowyers of 20 and 30 years ago were in the process of rediscovering an art that had been temporarily lost for the most part. The new bowyers coming along have read all those books and come up with a lot of good stuff on their own. The bowyers today are faster and better than the bowyers from then. Not because they are better bowyers though but more because we have continued to stand on each others shoulders and improve in increasingly smaller increments. I have had guys I have worked with for a few months who could compete with me straight up just because they learned the basics and applied them. I am looking forward to these new guys getting the credit due them.

I still dont see your numbers on fps on your bows,and when it comes to speed i know i could use some tutoring on making selfbows for speed.I think you ,and your friend could to from maybe Marc St.Louis.AS far as no name selfbow makers,there are alot of us,but we love what we do,and i will take you ,and your friends remarks with a grain of salt.To much self pride stinks.

Robert if it makes you feel any better, I get a crap load more credit than I will ever deserve. I've never once shot a bow through a machine and I can count on two hands how many times I've shot arrows for distance. I make solid, hunting bows. How fast are they? Beats me.

Bassman, reported speeds don't really mean much bad or good because we all have a different way of releasing the arrow. Really low speeds I see I suspect a short draw or bad release. Very high speeds can be manipulated somewhat by an archer with an active bow hand and quick release. I think if a guy has a clean release the same way he might use for hunting mid 160's is a very decent bow.

Badger , i agree with you.My bows are set up for hunting. I use puffs on the strings, and the right brace height,tight nocks, all the things that subtract speed.Those are the numbers a gave above.As far as form, and release i have no problems,but i do have a short draw.Still i make my bows 45 lb. at my draw.I like reading and learning.Jim Hamm made a sinew backed osage bow that shot faster than glass bows at the same poundage,great bowyer,and even a greater teacher.That was back in the 1980,s, and was great then, and would be great now.Thanks for your friendly reply.Pearl Drums you ,and i could talk all day about music. Wrong forum.I feel good ,and i do not look for credit.I have given many of my bows to friends ,neighbors, relatives,and children.The look on there faces when they receive the bow is enough for me,and then i teach them how to shoot more or less.When they show me the game that they harvest with my bows, or how they can hit what they are aiming at targeting shooting makes it all worth while. Thanks for your reply.

Do not cut them in half. Give them to some one who will put them to good use.Is that a 50 lb. bow at 500 grs. 28 inch draw.Be more specific, as that number means nothing by itself. Do you set them up for hunting, or use ff strings,brace low, quick release,you know, all the tricks that we all have learned over the years to add speed, when we chrony.Be honest now. Cutting your bows in half is telling me that something is off. Send them to me ,i will pay shipping, and give them to some one who needs or wants them.I would like to see some of your so called rejects any way. Bet they are nice bows, as selfbows go.Thanks for your reply.Oh, i have built quiet a few recurve bows from different modern materials as well. Carbon,boo, elm,you know the fancy kind of modern bows.Big bucks.Some of them shoot really fast,but if you set them up for hunting not as fast.

ocr,First you tell me you cut them in half,and then you tell me you have not had to cut any of them.Explain shooting normal.Your comments are vague.Still have not told me length of bows,what design, how many lbs.of pull what grain arrows you are using.you know all the information we need to know for that 175fps number.What do you mean by a slug bow,and yes game has been taken for many thousands of yrs, and the majority of the game was taken with what you refer to as slug bows.Thats a fact.So,you have never broken a selfbow,you have some magic way of making your strings for hunting much more quite than using string silencers,impediments as you call them,and you have never made a slug bow.I will bet your buddy has the same history,Mr rogers that is.You guys are awesome. Now if you still want to make a really fast selfbow bow you still should be tutored by you know who MARK ST LOUIS,OR MAYBE JOHN STRUNK.They are the renowned bowyers of today.

oh,see,are,Why do you keep evading the question.Above Irondawg posted these stats.190fps 10gpi 500 gr.arrow, bow draw weight 72 lbs at 28 inch draw.That is the stats i would like to see when you say 175fps or you cut them in half.Are you saying that you are doing this with a 50 lb bow 55lbbow 60 lb bow with a 500 gr arrow at 28 inches of draw? Just curious. I am a hunter that happens to make bows.You sound like a bowyer that may hunt or not.So i know there is a difference.I have been very successful over the years hunting with not selfbows, but sinew backed bows that shoot 100 plus poundage or a little better.That puts my arrow speed at 150fps give or take.Call it a slug if you want ,but it works great for me.I am 70 years old ,and shoot these bows with deadly accuracy at my max range which is 15 yds.With this set i have killed alot of animals over the years with 90 percent humane kills.No brag,just fact.

To all you bowyers above,have any of you ever built a selfbow at say 40 lbs. at 26inch draw, 500 gr arrow , and shot in the 160,s fps.,or a 45pounder same draw ,same arrow,that shot in the 170,s,or a 50 pounder,same draw,same arrow that shot the 180,s.just curious.

Robert dont let Pat get under your skin, he is good at that. He might be full of sh*t this time or he may be speaking truths. Im like you, I build hunting bows. Some seem faster than others and some seem like complete dogs. If I ever shot through a chrony I would probably find similar numbers to yours, except a fuzz faster because I draw 28". I build 99% self bows. Rarely back anything anymore. Be it rawhide, sinew or hard backing.

Bassman, I have a 26" draw when hunting. I will normally tiller a 50 bow out to 28" and all my hunting arrows are right at 500 grains. At my hunting draw length I am real happy with any bow hitting over 160 with a 500 grain arrow. So I would say I am hunting with 500 grain arrows from 45# bows shooting about 160 @ 26".

I seldom tweak anything for maximum speed on a hunting bow which might give me another 5 fps.

I am no slouch when it comes to making fast bows as I currently hold 2 broadhead flight records, one regular flight record and bows I have built for other hold many more records. I think my proudest accomplishment was last year where a 90# english longbow I built broke the world record by over 50 yards in a class shooting bows over 150# draw weight. Josephs son used one of my Elbs in the junior 50# class and broke the mens record for 50# with it and his wife took the womens ELb record with another 50# I supplied.

My personal choice in hunting bows are conservative simple designs that I feel confident will not take set over the years and loose weight. I usually like the tips about 1" behind the back of the bow.

Pearl Drums,refreshing to talk to you.Played on an old fender p bass for about 20 years,beside my younger brother who has a set of pearl pro drums,good sound.At the end of the gigs it fealt like i had a oak tree strapped on my back.So i set out to make my own basses, of which i made five pretty much from scratch.Cut the body wood,seasoned it.made the necks, fretted them ,and all that goes into making a light great sounding bass.Still playing on them,look great, and sound even better.I have to play at church tomorrow,and then go straight to a gig.Long day ,but i love music,and also love making, and hunting with my bows.Thanks for the reply.Badger that is great info.Your last sentence says it all for me to.I commend you on your accomplishments,you are a true craftsman, and thank you for the info on your personal hunting bows.Have you taken game beyond the 15 yard mark which i set for myself,and what was the penetration results,and did you get a humane kill?I ask alot of questions, so that i can learn. from someone elses personal experiences.Thanks for your reply.

I am not a very successful hunter so I will refer you to others on those questions. I mainly just go out because I enjoy the outdoors.

badger, to make the great bows that you make do you buy the wood or do you cut all of it yourself,like i do?.HERE COMES THE QUESTIONS.Do you favor a certain wood like yew for your world record breaking flight bows? Do you use osage when you sale a bow to some one for hunting? Have you made selfbows from all of the white woods.Is there one white wood you favor over another,given that you have a certain design for each wood?Do you have a sleeper wood? I favor walnut,but i do not see many bows made from it,or much written on it.One guy on the net referred to it as a wonderful overlooked bow wood.It heat treats very well,and if i put it on a form i can get about two inches of back set on the finished product.When i am done shooting it becomes like a double curve bow.I make them 58 to 62 inches long. and 2 inches at the fades to one half inch at the tips.It dings easy, but makes a nice shooting, solid feeling bow that is not to heavy.Thanks for your reply.

Bassman, I buy the majority of my staves. I get a few now and then from local tree guys and once in a while I stuble across something I can cut.

I favor osage at the flats but in my own local area I like yew just as well. Several of the woods I like suck up a little too much moisture over time. Elm is one of my favorites, purple plum I put right up there with yew and osage. If I lived in a drier climate I imagine I would use a lot more hickory as well. I like a lot of the whitewoods actually just most of them seem a bit sensitive to moisture.

I don't sell bows but when I gift one it will often have a lot to do with where they live, if I know they live in a dry climate I will very often give away a white wood bow.

My sleeper wood would probably be plum, a good piece of chinese elm is another one I can take all I can get.

Walnut has a lot of good qualities I really like, because of it's low density it is wise to make them wider as you have discovered. Walnut will chrysal if pushed but not bad about it. Very fast wood, I think some of it's qualities stem from its ability to dry out quickly due to its low density.

As far as design goes I have basicaly a few designs I use regularly and I play with a lot free hand. My favorite is a gentle reflex deflex with the curve in the later 1/2 of the limb starting off gentle and progressing as it nears the tips. Ideally between 1 1/2 to 2" reflex when finished.

If I had one tip to give out it would be control set, if you don't know how learn how. If a bow is perfect but starting to take set lower the draw weight you are after, even if you miss draw weight give no set priority

badger,thanks for your info.I have read plum is a very good bow wood,but never had the chance to try it.I have made some american elm bows that have turned out quite well,but i sinew backed them.reflex deflex most of them turned out with a little back set,but humidity in western pa can get high,and the bows take some set when you shoot them at certain times,but go back to original shape after you unstring them.For hunting they work fine.I like the pyramid design for white woods.Do you live on the west coast,and have you ever tried eastern cedar for a bow, which is really juniper.Dave mead makes some fast bows with that ,and also bamboo on his short horse bows.Just this morning i sinew backed a heart wood hickory bow that is around 45 lbs 90 percent tillered, no set.I will hang it horizontal,hang weight off of it to get as much back set as i can, and let it dry for a month and tiller and shoot it in.It is nice to converse with you, and your tips are appreciated.Thanks again.

Thanks for the great information. I've only built a few selfbows out of osage and have a long way to go to produce highly efficient selfbows. For that reason I love to hear what skilled craftsmen such as Pearly and Badger have to say. I'll be hunting with my 45# selfbow this year. Slug or not.... I have confidence in my equipment. Thanks again guys...always enjoy learning.

Pa Steve,do not let the term slug bother you.If you are a true dedicated hunter take that bow ,get your form down,shoot everyday if you can,get to were you have snuff box accuracy at 15 yds.or close to it,and keep your broadheads sharp as razors,hit the deer in the vitals,and he is yours at 15 yds and in.I tell you this because i have done it many times.I do not just hunt in Penna.,I have hunted 6 other states over the years,and have harvested alot of white tail, with sinew backed bows that shoot 100 plus there draw weight.which equates for me at about 145 fps give or take.That is inferior to what badger can make his bows for sure, but mine still work fine for hunting. good hunting.

Pa. Steve, get a copy of the Bowyer's Bible. Study the chapter that badger wrote about tillering a bow to a particular physical weight. And the chapter that Dan Perry wrote about flight bows.

Between those to chapter's your next bow will likely be the best one you ever built.

Pa Steve,I forgot to mention the most important point about hunting with your selfbow.The arrow has to fly as straight, and true as you can possibly get it.As a hunter,nothing saps energy from a bow like bad arrow flight.Paper test,bare shaft,and even group shoot your bow.If you do not know what these termanologies mean,get on the net,there tons articles on the subject.Good hunting.

Jim Hamm has a new book out...Things wished he knew when he started or something similar. Read through it last night. He re-emphasizes that any bow wood can build a very reliable and great shooting bow...and once there all bows have similar overall mass whether it is thin limbed dense gravity bow or wider limbed light gravity bow wood. That the bows that are made correctly according to the bow wood....all end up about the same overall mass. So the key is to make the best bow you can for the specific wood (design, moisture content, etc)...and a well built bow will have some string follow. Too much mass in limb tips, to much moisture in bow, bad arrow tuning....all rob a bow of energy and how it transfers energy to arrow.

Get all volumes of Trad Bowyers Bible...might also want to look for the new book I mentioned from Jim Hamm. He thanks Jay Massey, Paul Comstock, and Tim Baker in the forward.

Keep em sharp,

ron herman

Essentially what you are describing ron is the "mass" principal that badger wrote about in the Traditional Bowyer's Bible.

After I started understanding it, I'm a firm believer in the method.

And it works with backed bows just as well as it does self bows in my experience.

Good

Ok fdp,here goes. I just weighed a 62 inch 48 lb black walnut bow with everything on it.Width is one and three quarters inches wide at the fades, and tapers to one half inch wide at the tips. It comes in at 17 ounces.The next one is heart wood hickory and, is 62 inches long 47 lbs.It is one and nine sixteenths inches wide at the fades,and tapers to one half inch at the tips,and comes in at twenty ounces. The next bow is a sinew backed american elm bow 62 inches long, is 47 lbs, and is one and three eighths wide at the fades, and tapers to five eighths inches wide at the tips,and weighs in at 21 ounces. How would you and badger analyze these bows pertaining to the mass principal. Walnut, and hickory are selfbows.I just built the bows with nothing in mind except building a successfu bow.

Do they bend through the handle or do they have a stiff handle? If a stiff handle, what is the overall length of the handle and fades. And, what draw length are you shooting?

If you are drawing about 26 inches and these bows have no backset with 8" handle and fade area you would be about right at 17 oz, if the handle and fade area are 10" and you have a 28" draw 20 or 21 would be closer.

fdp All three bows have none working handles,all three bows have a deep cut out shelf. All three bows have 3 inch fades.The walnut bow has a 4 inch handle,the elm bow has a 6 inch handle, and the hickory bow has a 5 and one half inch long handle.All three bows are 26 inch draw.Walnut bow is straight no set no back set.hickory bow shows one half inch set right at the tips.The sinew backed elm bow shows the same set as the hickory only because i let a friend shoot quiet a few shots from it , and his draw is 28 inches.If it was badgers bow it would not have taken set as he would tiller the bow 28 inches.So badger your are saying that i am not doing to bad then.Thanks again for the info.badger and fdp.

Bassman, that's a pretty nice tiller. Well done. .

I don't a chrono so I can't offer you any speed data.

Jawge

George , don,t know how this pic got on here. I have lots to learn about posting pics. Sorry for my defensive posture above.Not who I am or want to be.That is sinew backed California style Indian bow that I have posted on another thread George. Sorry for the screw up.

Well I'll say! Mojam 2018 ! There was those that showed up. Those that couldn't show up and those that talked but wouldn't show up. At the end of the day the distance did not lie. In hunting situations speed is not all that important. The hunters ability however is! Enjoy the bows guys. Arvin

130-150 fps

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