I just got this osage stave and was wondering what folks thought about a self bow? Or even cutting it for a backed board stave?

looks pretty clean to me , from what I can see.

I'd say SELFBOW all the way :)

Looked like it comes pre recurved. Go for it. You could always heat the other tip to match that ends curve.

I'd trim the ends with a slice cut to see the rings. That would determine if it needs backing or not.

i think there is a bow in there, I would try it for sure,, take the bark and sapwood off to tell more. if it is green be sure and coat it with something

Russel.... What exactly would I look for after slicing the ends???

This wood is well seasoned already.

Thanks for the input so far...

If I go the self bow route, this would be my first. I usually back with boo.

Looking for spring & summer growth ratio with regards to thickness/thinness.

Post a picture of each end and get some advice.

looks like there could be to me.

Take off the bark and sap wood you can sand the ends smooth and apply a clear finish so you can get a look at the rings then remove rings till you have the one you want as the back. It don't have to be the biggest ring the flat ring is what I go for just as long as it's a cleanly chased ring matters the most always watch when you come up to a knot big or little, the ring will ride up on the knot like say a nipple leave the nipple proud if you knock them down you will have what looks like a bulls eye, ever ring in the bullseye is a violated growth ring, and will be where you will pull up a splinter. from your end picture your going to be chasing some small rings that pretty much all look the same so If I were you I would stick with the first one that you work down intact after the sap wood.

I'm new to this selfbow journey but I'ld likely go for it with that stave. There are plenty of build alongs on this site that will help. There's also lots of knowlegeable folks who are willing to help.

Two things I notice about that stave is that the rings are tight and "skinny". I'm not sure that's a bad thing but it will certainly make chasing a ring more of a challenge. Just take it real slow. The second observation is that on the top pic there are at least two knots that run deep. The other pic shows a close up of one of them. The location of those knots in relation to the long axis of the limbs, as well as center or close to the side, will be a large factor in whether or not backing would be needed. Can you post a pic or two that shows the location a bit better? Then the "smart guys" could guide you on the right track.

Just my humble two cents.

Chris

Heck yea!!!!

id leave the curved end and make the other match, its a recurve with half the work. there is definately a bow in there, one with lots of character too. irondawg(kevin)

You'll need to take your time chasing a ring, mossanimal. They seem pretty small. But I'd make a selfbow from it.

Okie dokie boys.... I will shave those ends and post some pictures. I'm getting excited. Power tools to a minimum on this one! I just got a Gransfors woodsman axe I'll use to get that bark and sapwood off. How many rings down from the sapwood do you reckon? I guess it will be easier to tell once I get a good picture of the ends....

you might consider taking the sap wood off with a draw knife.. the rings are a little tight. but seem doable.. self bows are really nice, once made hardly ever give any problem.. just lots of good shooting. nothing to come apart etc.. sometimes not as fast as some bows. but make up for that with accuracy ,, durability,, and dependability in the most harsh conditions.. ..

thanks for that Brad.... although I do not have a draw knife. I was thinking if I took it to just above the sapwood boundary, I could start rasping from there. Bad idea?

Carefully remove sapwood and go with top ring will remove any guess work on whether you violated any rings or not. Rings on this stave look tight but will make just as good a bow as the thick rings just have to be carefull. Get Comstocks book the Bent Stick best book for a beginer and it is cheap.

Thanks... I just noticed some pin knots that concern me. I will post later....

well if you are going to make a self bow. the draw knife can work down to a ring better than a rasp.. you want the ring you go down to.. to be smooth as possible.. and the rasp might be difficult on such a thin ring.. even a cheap one(draw knife) from a yard sale will do.. maybe if you use the axe like a draw knife when you get the sapwood off.... it might work ok.. just be very gentle and slow.. trun the axe blade toward you and pull and scrape gentle like you would a draw knife.. it really helps to see someone do it one time,, maybe someone can post a video.. I don't know how...

Like Brad said, a draw knife is the first choice of tool to use to get to that first good ring. I did use a hatchet to make a bow for the hatchet bow contest at Mobojam in Mo. It will work if do it as Brad descibed above, but it is alot more work.with less control. There are three pages of draw knives on Ebay, you could get one for around 20 bucks. I've bought for as little as 8 dollars at flea markets. A good cabinet scraper is nice for problem areas around knots and works good for tilering later. I don't think the pin knots will be a problem as long as you keep them away from the edge of the limbs. Good luck, Dan

i

I forgot to put text with that image.... So that is a knot on one side of the stave. On the other side of the wedge its clear. So, I'm assuming that it might get cut out once I get going???

Considering it is a sawn stave. You need to get the bark and sapwood off so you can see the longitudal grain of the stave. If the tree was twisted very badly, it may not be bow wood. The bark will give some indication, but you'll need to see that longitudal grain to establish the centerline of the bow. The rings are fine...as long as the one for the back of the bow is not violated. Don't worry about that knot either. Once you get the back ring chased you can likely avoid it.

doesn't look like a problem

well I just used my axe to peel the bark down to the sap wood. At least in the sap wood there are nice straight lines. Doesn't look like twist to me.

Looks like I need a draw knife! I'll hold off on further work until I get one. I've always been looking for an excuse to have one anyway.....

any thoughts on the 3Rivers Short draw knife for $26????

can you post a pic,, ??

I couldn't resist working on that first ring with me axe.... slow, but satisfying.

Also... It's hard to tell from the picture but I'm starting to wonder about twist... what do y'all think about this???

Here is a better picture of one of the ends....

looks like you got some nice ring a few down, and the twist look minimal.. nice piece of wood.. I don't know bout the draw knife, hard to tell from pic,,, ask jawge what he thinks bout the draw knife ,,,he has been using them forever..

so you think I should go down a couple?

Yep, 4th or 5th down from the sap wood. That will give you a thicker ring to follow.

Chase the ring as described. Don't worry about a little twist, it won't amke that much difference. The twists and curves are what make selfbows unique.

There is no question that there is a bow in there.

Need dimensions. Remove the sapwood. What's the length, width, and depth?

Depending on the numbers, a particular ring to chase would be easier to decide.

If it was mine, I'd go for 1 7/8 wide, 1 1/2 thick, and one inch extra for length. That's after establishing the back ring.

Russell

That's a great piece of wood! The first thick ring of heartwood would give you a good sound back ring. IMO, osage need not be over 1-1/2" wide unless you plan on a fairly short bow (60" or less)

Forgot to add, those were rough dimensions.

Russel.... The length is 71.5", Width varies from 2-2 1/4" and the thickness 1 3/4" from the back to the peak of the wedge. So...... I might not have a lot to work with in terms of working down to some of the thicker rings????

That looks like a nice piece of osage, all great advice above. But since it looks like a sawn stave be sure, as saw filer mentioned, to follow the grain. Good luck.

Do you guys mean that it was sawn versus split? I guess when a stave is split then it naturally follows the grain right??? And a sawn stave could violate.

I learn.

Waiting for my copy of Bent Stick to learn mo.

Yes, sawn wood would violate the grain much easier than splits.

Suggest buying also, Hunting the Osage Bow, by Dean Torges. Read the book and make the bow as you read the book a second time.

Thickest part of the bow is the handle, obviously. With that said, the typical handle is 1 1/4" final diam, round.

I'd remove the sap wood down to this ring. Looks good to me for the back ring. If you are inexperienced chasing a ring, practice on the first couple. Sort of like pealing an onion.

There’s a few build-alongs that walk you through most of the major steps in making an Osage selfbow.

Dean’s book details making this style of bow also.

Good luck and have fun.

Russell

Thanks for the help Russel. I'm basically approaching the first ring after the sap wood as a practice ring. My main issue is telling whether or not I have violated AND seeing the longitudinal grains. Do folks do some sanding once they've gotten to their target ring to help visualize everything????

No sanding until the bow is nearly finished.

Suggest a sharp drawknife and cabnet scraper.

Sunlight helps to see the grain.

Very important to establish the back ring clean without violations.

Read my buildalong. It explains lots.

Russell has done at least two great build alongs that I know of. I've done one that's "ok". Read through those, start making your bow, look back through the threads again before each new step. You'll find a ton of good advice from some really good bowyers on those build alongs.

Chris

Btw, the ring that Russell outlined is the one I was talking about too. If you violate it the next one down is also a real good one.

based on my dimensions.... I'm wondering how much wood I have to work with if I work too many down? The thickness is only 1 3/4" and it is in a wedge shape. I guess I have enough for the limbs... but I was hoping to not have to build up a handle. I was feeling pretty good about the first ring under the sapwood... but then I pulled a splinter just below a big knot. Should have read Russel's build along more closely!!!! Work around those knots Moss.

okay... here is a picture showing where I've taken it down just past the sap wood. I thought this was the first ring... but now I realize the two shades are the first ring below the sap wood and then the one just below it.

Here is a big knot that I'm dealing with. I'm leaving some sapwood around it for right now, but I wonder if I already shaved off to much at the top???

And is this knot 'character' or a problem? I sure wish it was more centrally located....

The knot bears some consideration.

What draw lenght and weight do you want?

Where is the knot, relative to the short end?

You need about 62" to 64" minimum overall lenght, with the knot ideally at the center of that. I'd make the short end the uppper limb and let the knot shape work for you in the handle. You got a good start here.

Spend a little coin and get a drawknife with turned back handles. I think I paid $40.

I was just out measuring the stave to see where I can get that knot. The total length is about 72" so I was looking at where things would be if I lopped off 9 or 10" from the end opposite of that knot. (There would go my natural recurve.) Based on those measurements I could get that knot just above a handle.

In a perfect world I would love 65-70# @ 26"

DCM... why would you want the short end to be the upper? I'm not questioning your judgment... I'm just curious. I usually think of upper limbs as the longer of the two.

btw... i have a draw knife on the way....

Well the shape of it would better fit one's hand, being pistol grip-like in that orientation. Going the other way looks kinda backwards to me. If you could get the arrow pass right about where that 2x4 stud crosses, you'd be golden I think.

For 26" draw you could go as short as 60" overall lenght. Any more is just gravy, but very desirable if availalbe. Seasoned hands could go as short as 56", imho but we'll leave a little on the table for a first time project.

Generally the arrow pass is somewhere between center and 2" above. That makes the upper limb shorter, when you consider the handle as being part of the lower limb. Which, from the pov of the arrow and geometry it is. I try not to complicate the issue with where and how much of the bow actually bends. Ideally it will be full compass shaped when yer done regardless. Having the arrow pass closer to center makes a whole lot more sense to me, than purposely shortening the upper by arbitrary placement of arrow pass. But I confess there is some... contention on this question. LOL

well if I lop it to 62" then center would, as you say, be about 2" below that knot.

Thanks for the observations! Very helpful....

another question...

I noticed that Russell pretty much established his back before drawing the outline and cutting the basic shape. I was wondering if folks ever cut down to within a few rings of their actual back and drew and cut the outline of the bow. I suppose you wait in case you find (or make) problems following your target ring???

Sorry if this is a basic question...but I'm waiting for my books to come in the mail!

yes its better to wait until you see what the wood is like,, then work around any areas you need to when you draw the bow on the wood.

pin knot aren't that hard to work around just leave the ring intact around them and come back after you get the stave chased and work the ring up to the knot. looks like you have a couple knot cluster you can leave a thin island on the cluster or brake out the fine scrapper and scratch them clean or not just don't smooth them down like my fist time.

Study the grain and note where the grain runs out (back layer). Also note the pins and knots. ID the best limb and use this for your lower limb. Try to layout the bow to remove the knots. If unable to do so, try to place the knot in the handle area.

Use a magnifying glass and take outdoors in the sun. Look at the bow at different angle to get a good view of the grain.

Take your time and study the wood. I've taken a few days to give the layout some thought.

Sometimes the wood dictates the style/layout of the bow and not the bowyer.

Good luck,

Russell

Thanks... I just found another fairly big knot (not a pin knot) smack in the middle of what will probably be the lower limb. If you don't have the room to swing ALL the way around it during the layout... is it better to have it right in the middle rather than on just one side? Or do you end up being better off just backing if you can't avoid a big knot in a limb?

Knots are not that big a deal, even on a limb edge. Try to avoid them, and ones you can't leave a little extra width until you get to tillering. They will tend to hinge, and the extra width will help avoid this. But don't be tempted to leave them stiff either. Just wait and reduce near the end of the tillering so the area won't set and get ahead of the rest of the limb. Never leave a knot proud a ring on the back, it will raise a splinter. Equally important to not scalp a knot but leaving an extra ring is still a bad idea. I don't have any really good pics up right now but this will give you some idea. Not necessary to void a knot unless it is punky and loose.

Again no really good examples, but you can get away with a lot, particularly with osage. Save all the width you can, within reason, until you get to long string tillering. Care in crafting can compensate for a lot of flaw in the material.

Fine example DCM, great pics.

Final tiller on that first bow, wasn't nearly done yet in the first pic. Again, knots is made outa wood too, no need to leave an area stiff. Just tread lightly in the crafting and stay after it until it bends perty. The knarly stuff is where you earn yer stripes on selfbowyerin. Hell, you can might near build a bow with only a bandsaw on the right and regular stuff. In fact there is some antecdtoe that Tim Baker built a well tillered bow in something like 10 minutes, board bow but still it makes my point.

More pics if you just want to browse selfbowyering stuff.

http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/site/?/photos/

DCM.... Nice work. I checked out your website too. Nice. I like the look of your voided knots!

I have another question.... I see on Russel's build along that he does quite a bit of drying in the hot box even though his wood was seasoned. Is this always recommended? My stave is nicely seasoned... but should I be trying to dry this thing further throughout the process? I don't have a hot box (or a moisture meter)... I've been using Urac for my lam bows. I'm planning on putting one together soon.... especially for drying out boo. But should I get on one for this stave? FYI.... it stays in the garage and I live in Northern Wisconsin which is pretty humid this time o'year.

Here I am following the ring. I'm still waiting for my draw knife, but since my rings are so thin I'm having good luck with my Bowyer's Edge (works awesome on Osage!) and my axe. The axe, with it's amazing Swedish steel, razor sharp edge, works well for smoothing out rough spots the BE has a hard time with. I'm finding you can actually do very fine work with that thing by handling just the head of the axe and feathering it.

Notice the head lamp in the picture. That helps quite a bit at looking at the rings from the side when the sun is in my face.

Towards the top you can see the knot that is placed dead in the center and, I believe, will unavoidably be placed mid-limb (due to placing the other, much larger knot, closer to center).

Here is a side view showing the ring I'm following. I'm hovering just above it, as, at this point, I'm not sure If I want to stay on top of the dark (winter growth????) or shave that and stay right on top of the light (summer growth???).

I've gotta say... I love the performance of my boo backed r/d bows, but this is WAY more fun.

That knot doesnt look like a problem. When I get lost on a ring, a wet finger run over the wood makes them easier to see.

Thanks for that... I just started doing something like that. What do you think about the last picture I posted? Should I scrape a little further down to the summer wood??

Dont know about the last pic. I look at the end grain, select the desired ring and establish the back with this ring. Being super careful along the way not to violate it.

Suggest you get a pocket digital scale. Will tell you the moisture content of the wood. Normally take one year per inch of wood to dry naturally.

Think you need a hotbox for bamboo. Need to dry it a few days before glueing.

lookin good.. B

My boo has been heat tempered before I buy it... and I flatten and glue almost immediately. but it will be more affordable to start buying stuff less pre-processed and a hot box will be needed.

My last pic was a side profile showing the ring that I'm chasing... the same ring that you pointed out in a pic of my end grain. Do most folks not keep track of their ring by looking from the side? In that pic it shows that I'm just down to the top edge of a thin dark band (spring growth right?) with lighter wood just beneath. Mostly I need to know if it is better to continue down through that dark wood.

Again... I apologize for what are probably elementary questions... but I'm still waiting for my lit! I can't keep myself from working on that stave out there...

I dont look at the sides, might be a good idea, but I dont.

I don’t look at the sides, might be a good idea, but I don’t.

Do however inspect both ends to see if the rings are uniformed.

not so sure bout your question.. the whitish wood should be scraped off to the dark ring... a little of the white wood won't hurt,, just get most of it off. is that what you mean,, the dark wood will be the back of your bow. so it is important to not scrape it too much.

I use that Swedish push knife all the time. It's good for getting close to the ring you want. I push away and take off the sapwood easily. I use it a bit for scraping too particularly while tillering. I also use shavehooks for chasing rings. I particularly like the curved ones. A curved scraper will work also. Jawge

yeah Brad... Thanks. That is what I needed to know. I might go down one more ring then. It was so much fun getting down to this one ya know

I have what looks to be that same draw knife (with the red handles) on order Jawge. Is that what you are calling the swedish push knife?

wait.... Brad... when you say 'white wood' were you referring to the sap wood? Because I'm already two rings below the sapwood. My question was referring to the alternating light and dark colored rings you see in my picture of the side. I'm guessing these are 'spring' and 'summer' rings. The sapwood was long gone when that pic was taken. Maybe that's what you were referring to as well, but I just wanted to make sure.

So.... just to make sure... Do I want my back to be the dark ring or the lighter colored 'yellow' ring? Sorry if I'm being confusing.... I'm learning as I go here and I really appreciate your help. Hopefully this thread will help some other nube out.

Dark wood (Summer growth)...this is the hard part of Osage. The light wood is Spring and full of open cells.

dark wood for the back. OK to leave traces of spring growth.

it's all comin' together. I may have my ring. Tomorrow I start contemplating a layout then. But I still question my fidelity to the ring. I have a hard time picking it up after tracing it past a knot (looking at it from the side)... but visually, from the top, it seems good. I feel good about this boyz.

I also now need to think about a hotbox. I have enough plywood laying about... I guess I should go ahead and do it. I have a heat lamp in my chicken coop. Can I just lay the stave up in there and let em roost on it as it dries?

A thermometer on a stick is what I use.

Build the box IAW Dean's book, Hunting the Osage Bow.

Something like 2' x 2' x 6'. Insulate the outside with whatever you want. Just trying to keep the temp stable.

Build a shelf mid height. Place wood on top. Place one or two reg 40-60 watt bulbs. Use the end baffles to regulate temp.

I have one 60 watt in mine.

A thermometer on a stick is what I use.

Build the box IAW Dean's book, Hunting the Osage Bow.

Something like 2' x 2' x 6'. Insulate the outside with whatever you want. Just trying to keep the temp stable.

Build a shelf mid height. Place wood on top. Place one or two reg 40-60 watt bulbs under the shelf on the floor of the box.

Use the end baffles to regulate temp.

I have one 60 watt in mine.

no go on the coop?? :-) yeah I've got stuff laying about to make something like that.

I'd keep the chickens and bow making seperate. Just me, tho.

You can push a scrape against the grain to raise the early/late wood boundry and make it more visible. You can also "feel" this transition, going from smooth to rough to smooth. Leave yourself enough depth, or thickness by stopping at the first appropriate ring. Then once you have your bow laid out and handle sized, you can decide if you have enough thickness to take another ring or two. It's the thickness at the peak of the handle that will be the issue. I generally want for no less than 1 1/4" there, tending toward at least 1 1/2" for the initial layout.

Chicken crap may discolor the wood, but only on the surface.

Get yourself a cheap humidity gauge from the home center. You want for your bow to be stored at about 40% Rh, ideally. Once it's mass weight stabilizes at that Rh, you are good to go. Need to be able to measure weight to within about 1/2 oz. Maybe a weight watchers scale. I use an old postal scale. Generally a warm place in an otherwise cool environment is the driest, like a hot water closet or attic in your house (where air conditioning drops humidity). Look around, test lots of places. Garage is not the best place, in the house at a minimum, today. Probably won't be an issue in the Winter.

Two schools of thought on dry wood. First, wood will acclimate to current conditions, regardless of any finish, treatment, etc. or how long it has "seasoned." So, even if you artificially dry to build it, chances are it will be higher moisture content when you actually use it. Unless you keep it in a dry place all the time. Second, no question drier wood is more efficient, makes more cast for less set than more wet wood. I compromise, building at about 40% to avoid set from the crafting. Then keep my finished bows at around 50% (in winter). It may cost you a pound or so of draw weight using osage going from 40% to 50% Rh.

After many projects I tend to err on the side of using a little more wood, width on the inner 1/2 of the limb generally for a flatbow, giving up a little cast perhaps but ensuring longevity and avoiding excessive fatigue, or set.

the dark wood for the back. Like DCM said,, when you get the bow roughed out to floor tiller it will dry out pretty quick.. I like to have the bow a little wider too.. if you just dont' have the wood ok.. but a wider bow will bend further without set....or breaking. let us argue bout the bow when you draw it on the back before you take off wood,,,

it looked like you were doing good on the ring thing.. try not to skip around on it.. just go even from one end to the next...

Just built my hotbox out of OSB with aluminum foil lined on the inside. Pics later.

Thanks for the input fellas. Will go wide and long to compensate for any f'ups.

Here is my quikie hot box. I scrounged for materials around my shop and this what I came up with. I like my aluminum arrow shelfs. I guess I should get more insulation. The foil can't do much I suppose. The thermometer tells me I have 100F continuously with my one 60W bulb. Anyway... for right now, it's gotta be better than nothing right?

Suggest blocking the ends and adjust the temp as needed with opening them. Also believe you need a shelf above the light to deflect the heat. Add a cheap sleeping bag or quilt for insulation.

Mine should allow air to move, but doesnt. Seems to work fine.

The pic doesn't show the baffle/end that I have. I can move it from side to side to allow for air flow. I also have a sleeping bag. It's just pushed back for the picture. So... direct heat from the bulb on the stave is bad??? Anyway... I got the idea for using the arrows from Brad's hotbox thread.

The two staves are for projects in a few months. If I roughed the bow out to remove excess wood, they would dry much faster. Just dont feel like carving now.

Thermometer on a stick of bamboo on the right.

my you have thick rings. I can see now why I was confused about some things chasing my ring.

so I'm starting to play with the layout. I'm gonna go with 2" wide across the handle and at least up to mid-limb as I read repeatedly that wider has some advantages. And I can always slim down while tillering. The stave is only a little over 2" in some spots... especially towards the middle so I don't have a lot to work with there. There is a big knot mid-limb (towards the top of the picture) and I decided to have the center line run right through that since I don't have enough room to work around it.

I also still have to make a decision about where to put the big knot in the center relative to the handle. Due to the length of the stave, I really don't have the option of putting it right in the handle or else that limb will be way to short. So... what do folks think about putting it right over the fades???

also... I keep reading about following the grain on the layout... but I look and look and all I see are nice parallel lines. The stave itself is fairly straight... so do I just lay it out straight up and down the stave and avoiding knots if possible???

Grains are much easier to see with a magnifying glass and sunlight. If you only see lines and they dont runout, then sounds like you are good.

One thing I would do is use a scraper and clean those knots before plotting and cutting the outline.

If you feel confident with the outline, guess I would employ the bandsaw and remove excess wood, then clean the back.

Looking good so far.

With regards to the knot locations, guess they are safe in non-bending wood. But the limbs, suggest you dont slit them or have them on the edge.

Russell

One thing I'm trying to understand is how you have run-out grain on a single growth ring. I'm having a hard time visualizing it. If you are chasing one growth ring, isn't it like a continuous sheath surrounding the ring below it? How does it run out? I'm not questioning this... I'm just curious.

Lines rep runout.

Looks like some in red.

Sent PM with my cell #

how do you check pms??????

see rt side of screen

moss, time to just use a scraper like tool now. You can see what I use in the photo I posted above. If you have a curved scraper the use it. The rings on osage are dippy and a straight scraper won't do it. You'll just end up with violations. You have NOT chased to one ring on that stave you have several violations. Here's what I do. I go right to the ring I want and right up along the right side for a foot. Come back down towards me along the center and then up the left. If I have to go around a knot I do it by always keeping the ring I want in sight, around the back and down the center and continue as described above. BTW the reason I look for the ring on the edge is if I miss it there it won't matter because width trimming will get rid of that spot. I recommend you go no more than 1.5 in wide and better to go 1 3/8 for osage. I recommend you successfully chase a ring before you do any layout. I can tell you how to do the layout (follow the lateral grain) once you get one ring on the back. I think backing it with rawhide would give you piece of mind. 3 Rivers has it ready to go. I would NOT back it as is because you have too many violations. My view on backing is it should provide insurance against tillering errors but not a crutch to cover correctable mistakes. There is more on my site. Jawge http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/

Thanks a lot Jawge. I did realize that I was going to have to re-do the layout. I was just playing around waiting until I decided what to do about the current ring I'm on. But now I'm realizing that I definitely do NOT have the eye for this yet! Especially if you can see violations from the pics, and I can't see em in the bright sunlight!

I don't have a curved scraper yet. My best scraper is the Bowyers Edge.

So what do you see that suggests violations?

I basically started at one end with my Bowyers Edge and scraped down the ring I wanted on the end and made sure I could see it on both sides. I then proceeded from edge to edge on up. I've left some of the previous ring intact along some of the edges that I knew would get trimmed away. I can trace the edges on the sides pretty well... but my fear is that I could be violating somewhere in the middle where I don't have the advantage of looking at an edge.

Anyway... maybe I will start again on the next ring down and do it as you suggest.

But... what are you seeing in my pictures that shows a violation... just to help improve my eye???

Also... would you recommend rawhide over sinew????

From what I see it looks like you have followed one ring well, just need to clean up around some knots. I would not let those knots deferr me from making a self bow. Once you get the knots cleaned up you will be able to follow the vertical grain better up your limb. From the pics it looks like you are close.

A boyers edge is OK for hogging off wood but lacks the ability to do fine work in peaks and valleys on you stave. You need a set of cabinet scrapers for fine work in valleys and around pins.

Hold you stave in front of a long window with the sunlight coming in. Put on end on the sill and look down the stave with your head about a foot above the stave. When you rotate the stave just right every grain violation and swirl will really pop out at you.

I use this method to draw in the snaky grain undulations down the length of the bow to avoid violations on the sides.

Cabinet scrapers are fairly cheap and last forever. Her is one common set. I only use the straight and the straight one with the convex end.

Scott,

Just what George says about establishing the back ring.

I think you are a perfect candidate to use Dean Torges book, Hunting the Osage Bow. He walks you through the entire process in story format as a friend makes a bow.

The bowyers edge I have is only used for tillering (removing thin shavings of belly wood).

To chase the ring and establish the back, I use a very sharp draw knife and cabinet scrapers. Most of the time it's the curved scraper. Just make sure you keep them sharp.

Treat the back of the bow like pealing an onion. You have most of the thing pealed, just left a few pieces here and there. Remove the pieces without digging into the back and you have succeeded at establishing the back of the bow.

When working around pins and knots, the wood gets much harder. Work around them and leave about 1/2" of wood surrounding the knot. Then carefully scrape away the remaining wood. Work from the center of the knot or pin and scrape away from the knot. You have to be careful and full of patience. Don't get in a hurry...OK?

Then work the other side of the knot. Center and away from the knot.

If you try to scrape from one side of the knot and scrape all the way from one side to the other, you may dig into the wood and remove too much and actually lift a splinter if using other tools.

Once you done it a few times and built confidence, you will get the feel and these problems are only challenges and not major issues.

Hope this helps....establishing the back free of violations is the beginning of a fine selfbow. If you do a poor job at it, it's the beginning of the end of a potentially fine selfbow.

I know you can do it...just keep asking questions and taking pictures.

Russell

I seem to be bad to leave letters out when I type. How about"your stave" and "here is a common set".

Here is a tool I call a pin knot scraper. Perfect for working around difficult pins. I made it with a concrete nail, heated to cherry red to anneal, pounded flat and shaped, bent, sharpened, reheated and quenched. A final buffing to a razor edge after being re-hardened made it cut like crazy.

The other tool is one of my earlier tillering gizmos.

Okay... Yup. I need some cab scrapers. Looks like it.

Russel... I'm waiting for my Torges book. I've been looking through the Bent Stick and that's helped put some things into perspective. But leaves out some details for somebody hot into the process.

Thanks Eric. Your scraper looks something I can use. I will see what I have in the shop. I've already built a gizmo and it's been pretty darn useful on my lam bows.

I also just got my 'short draw knife' (Jawge was calling it a swedish push knife) from 3Rivers for $26 bucks. Nice tool! And I'm seeing how you can do some fine scraping with it... BUT... as you're saying... not for the dips and valleys. Y'all should look into one for the price.

moss, you definitely do not have 1 ring on the back. Look at that gigantic knot. You have several ring violations right there. You also have some violations around those smaller knots. Be sure you see them. That's important. Just below that knot is your active ring of heartwood. Right were those lines are that Russell put in. Nice dark heartwood. Now what I do is follow the ring around the right. Use the scraper. Come back down towards you. I'd use the Swedish draw knife. I'd turn my body and get under the tope ring and push it right off and do the same with the others. I'd go down to the active ring and up the left. Use your scrapers until you feel confident. LISTEN to the wood you'll hear a chatter when you get to the ring. Time to slow down. Take your time. You'll get it. Son! Come on up and I'll teach ya. :) Jawge

Jawge... on that knot are you talking about ring violations right at the tops of the knots? I was wondering if I violated at those spots because I started scraping the sapwood right over the knots in the beginning.... but then I stopped when I learned. But that is almost all sapwood around the knots because, after learning what to do, I worked up from the bottom of the stave to and around the knots.... leaving them alone.

On my monitor, the yellow wood below (and some areas above) is the ring I'm working. Anyway... I'm going to start working one ring down. This ring was not my target ring anyway. I just wanted to see if I could successfully follow one.

I would love to come out (nothing but down from where I live!) sometime... I would learn that's for sure. These pictures are pretty tricky to look at I'm realizing....

moss, those lines off to the right are pointing to the active heartwood ring. Look at Russell's last post. Looks to me like the wood on the knot are ring sitting above that. Get just above that and scrape off that funky early wood and you'll see it. Use a jack knife until you get your scrapers. Jawge

I'm making progress. My camera is down so no pics. But, even though I'm confident in my back, I ordered some rawhide for, as Jawge puts it 'Peace of Mind'. Psychologically I can't handle another bow break right now!

Anyway.... what is a good thickness taper (from fades to tips) for a 63" osage longbow at 65#????

I would think that a 1 5/8" wide at flares, to 1/2" at tips, with a 5/8" center ridge on the belly would get you in the area. This all depends on the thickness of the edges.

I like to plot 3/8" along the edges, going heavy at the fades and light at the tips. Create a facet for belly wood and get the floor tillering good.

That's for an oval limb. If you desire a flat belly limb, I dont know.

Russell

Thanks Russel.... I've got to learn this faceting approach. On my lam bows I usually just go, for example... 1/2" at the fades to 3/8" at the tips or something like that.

Another thing... I have to start thinking about getting the twist out of one of the limbs. I've heat bent wood at the tips before... but I've never tried to get the twist out. Any tips on that? I wanna get these limbs straight because I'm gonna flip em back a bit.

Yes, review my buildalongs.

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=178130&category=

moss, approximately how many degrees of twist? Just a reminder to follow the lateral grain when laying out the bow. Also remember to leave some wood around the width of that big knot. jawge

Thanks Jawge... Yeah... I left plenty of wood around that sucker. I guess that will be 'character'.

So the twist looks to be 10-15 degrees from what would be the horizontal plane of the bow. Too much I believe for a (albeit slight) recurved limb tip.

Russel... I saw your wrench work on the twist in your build along. So... did you keep the limb under tension while you were applying the heat? Or would you progressively put more tension on each time you gave it a new wave of heat? I'm assuming that would be the case.

If you are just going to add a little reflex (semi recurve) to the last 6 inches I wouldn't even worry about it. Jawge

so I wouldn't have to worry about the string slipping off? What if I start liking the look of that bent wood and an urge kicks in and I start putting just a little bit more in? That happens to me Jawge. Spontaneous urges overide common sense. In other words... if I decide to put radical recurve in that last 6 inches? Should I worry about the twist then? I'm tempted to try to fix that twist no matter what to just get the practice.

I heat the wood until it moves. Then secure with rope to maintain the correction desired.

If I were curving the tips, I'd straighten the limbs, then curve the tips. Just me, George likes the character. Me too sometimes.

Remember, the wood often dictates the style of bow and not always the bowyer get their way. Don't fight it too much.

Another approach to heat straightening using a caul or form. Works particularly well for twist too. Rarely do I need to take out twist that I don't want to fix whoop-dee-do as well. Having the stave start out right and regular will help a great deal for a less experienced craftsman.

thanks for that DCM.... I was going to start working on a caul today anyway. I will try it that way...

Yes, that would be different, Moss. Jawge

Howdy folks... Still working on this project. I've got a bow shape roughed out. Still need to take more of the width down. How much of the width should I leave intact around the knots?? I've got some bend into the tips and most of the twist taken out. And I'm starting to get some bending in the limbs on the floor. I'm just about to put the rawhide backing on then I will start tillering in earnest.

I've glued some tip overlays on... seems early to most folks, but I like to go ahead get those done for when I put the bow on the tree. I haven't fashioned a proper tillering string yet.

Anyway.... progress.

just me, but ide get groves cut, long string her, then reg string low brace height, and get a shooter before i would leather-back it?...and once i had a shooter, ide heat treat the belly a little and reset too get rid of as much string follow as possible , then rawhide back her...

....heres one more tip, ill leave riser square[in other-words dont shape] so its easy too put in and out of tiller tree; and i dont do tip or riser overlays untill i get a shooter;... i do this too save time just in case there are unforseen problems or a blowup?....that way you havent wasted materials/time on a bad stave....have a safe season!!..snake

Thanks for the input. But as since this is my first self bow, I sure would feel better having a backing before I start bending her too much. And... yes...I should've waited on the handle. But overlays are easy to do and I won't do much to em other than cut grooves. I know I do things backwards.... but what does it really matter in the end?

Do you mean put reflex in the belly of the limbs??? There is some natural reflex there... but do you think more???

why is everything harder than how it reads? I just put the backing on and this was NOT a smooth process. This is where I wish I had somebody who lives around here to walk ya through the process. I soaked some rawhide, spread TBIII and layed out the two pieces overlapping at the middle. And wrapped as tight as I could with string. Very hard to get all the air pockets out... I tried pushing glue into some of the 'puffy' areas so I hope that glue hardens in there. But, right now, I worry about starved areas with bubbles. I guess we shall see tomorrow.

just read Dean Torge's method for putting rawhide on. Wish I would've seen that before. Most of it is looking good but there will be a few air pockets. So.... have folks made tiny holes and injected glue???

your not doing things backwards, everybody does things different for different reasons...i find osage very forgiving and in my mind the best selfbow-wood,..that and hickory..

...as far as air pockets, ive heard of guys putting a small hole and forceing air out, also with snakeskins...dean torges knows his stuff etc..

the leather backing should go fairly smooth, rough up back of bow a little with 80 grit, then clean, put tite-bond glue on both thin even coats with finger , and spread out evenly working from middle too tips...i dont even think you need too wrap or clamp?...

some guys here do leather backing all the time so im sure someone will post,..i find on selfbows if i have a question ill also try primitive archer site,..and use the search engine both here and on PA.,,,...have a safe season...snake

ps...pretty much all my selfbows get backed with just air...in other words no backing....

thanks man for the words. My next one will be unbacked if I find the right stave... but I just had two boo backed bows break during tillering and I'm a bit gun shy right now.

Anyway... I like the rawhide backing because it allowed me to maintain the character of this wood. Coming from all board bows, this piece of wood has a lot of character.

Gluing things to the back of a bumpy piece of wood has never went easy for me either, but I think you are on your way to a shooter, keep us posted.

yeah.... it went fine. I just looked at it and everything shrunk up nicely. all the air pockets are gone.

Nice to hear, moss. Keep up the good work. Jawge

well boys.... This has been a weird tillering for me. I have a much longer (what is now) upper limb which held more of the flip back at the tip, a much shorter (what is now) lower limb with two big knots and lost most of the flip back. If you remember from my earlier posts, I decided on the unequal limb length due to a huge knot that I tried to center the best that I could. Anyway.... It is still heavy... around 70# draw right now.

So... should I loosen up that lower limb or keep it stiff as is? Anything else I'm missing on this tiller?

Here it is at low brace.

By the way... Rattlesnake had a good point. Do not shape your handle before tillering. What a pain. I don't know why I did that.... I've never done it before.

its fine haveing the upper limb a bit longer , in fact i design some of my selfbows that way; also ok too have lower limb a tad stronger, but not too much;

......is it posible too move your hand down on the riser a bit in next pic and or a pic of bow in tiller tree would really help?

....i think we need too see that puppy drawn in tiller tree before you go further?

you could be close?... ide take a little off on the bottom limb all the way evenly and recheck?.. you could also introduce a little flip-back on the bottom limb with some heat too match top, but totally not nessasary and i think it looks cool as is?

...this is a neat build along....snake

Nice looking bow you have there. Wow 140 posts now. You have gotten some good help here from many folks.

why not take off an inch off the upper limb to get the tiller more even with the bottom.

Other option is to weaken the lower limb to match the upper limb. That might be better if you target weight is lower. Normally you don't want to pull 70# if you target weight is say 55#. You should never go over your target weight or you end up taking some spring out of the wood. So I have heard other say anyway.

Thanks for the comments. Yeah, I usually design one limb longer than the other...but this one is over 2" longer. I will try to get a pic on the tree. But its tough... that handle slides all over the place. I try to wedge it in the best I can. I did this one mostly by floor tillering and comparing with other bows that I have.

My target weight was 65# so I'm close. I will lose some through finishing. So I'm hesitant to loosen that lower limb more unless folks think it's really necessary.

i was just looking at that picture again... my hand IS pretty high there. What was I up to?

how does the bow shoot.?

Yeah lets see a pic of you hand a little lower. That should change the tiller and put more bend on the bottom. Maybe try wrapping twine around the handle to form a better grip when you find the best location.

tomorrow I start to shoot it in Brad. I will let you know!

Looks to me there's a serious issue with the upper limb's hinge. See the area bending more a few inches above your hand?

Suggest you work the hinge worked out while watching what the weight does. The 6" tillering gizmo would have assisted with the tillering.

As Gaur mentioned, your handle looks a few inches high on the bow.

Do you have Dean's book? The lower limb is supposed to be a bit shorter.

Russell

hinge???? man I'm not seeing that one. I thought I finally had a pretty clean tiller.

I usually design a shorter lower limb but I've never had such a big difference.

And yes... I don't know why I was holding so high??? Just a glitch.

Please make a 6" tillering stick (tillering gizmo). I demo'ed one on a couple of my buildalongs. It would tell the story of where to scrape and where not.

Basically take a 6' 1x1" and run along the limb at braced height. The space between the stick and bow belly should be the same. Once that is done, start bending the bow and checking for equal spacing.

Get the spacing near perfect at a 6" brace height, the rest should fall inline with little correction.

I'm comming to this post late moss, but you are sooo close!!! Russell is right. I really think, that all you need to do is remove a small amt of wood between handle and midlimb on that lower limb. Again- Keep it stiffer than the top, but just a bit more bend than it has now. ps- real great job on the heat bending and shaping so far!!

I have one Russell. I've been using it.. but... I start feeling like I'm chasing a small high spot around... and then I worry about losing too much weight.

So are you saying I shouldn't have any bend at all in that spot you circled??

Woodshavins... thanks for the kind words. And I do agree.... That lower limb needs loosening up and I've done that. I will post more pics soon.

Lets say you have the bow strung at 6", my typical brace. Run the tiller tool and see the highs and lows. Adjust the pencil so it sticks out about 1/8". Run the tool from handle to near tips, marking the high spots. It helps to 45 degree the ends of the tool to get closer to the tips.

Unstring and scrape or rasp the pencil marks off. String the bow again and run the tool again. Continue until all is even.

Then start pulling the string on the tree a couple inches (brace + 2 inches). Run the tool at 8". Unstring and remove slights amount of wood. String and flex the bow to 8" 30-50 times only to 8". Then check to see if the wood has reacted to the change. If not, continue to get it even at 8".

Then move to a couple more inches and check with the tool. Continue until 18" or so.

Once the tiller is very good at low ranges at or below 18", the rest to full draw normally falls inline with little correction needed.

If you flex the bow to full draw with problems, set is normally created that often is permanent.

Hope this clarifies the process. Nothing is written in stone, just guidelines. Experience equates to some shortcuts.

Russell

Thanks for clarifying Russell. That is basically how I've done it on my last few boo backed bows (although with less precision on actual numbers)... although this time I've used the tree less due to the handle. My point was that, on this one, I was starting to move one high spot around from one spot to another. I've heard that can happen when using the gizmo. And once you start chasing that high spot.... well eventually you just have to give up and call it good. Since that picture was taken I've done some more scraping... so hopefully that hinge you saw is gone. I'm not seeing it myself (but I have a less experience eye and past hinges on other bows have been glaringly obvious), but hopefully it is corrected.

another thing.... I really should post a pic of it on the tree. I will I promise. Things can be pretty distorted looking at pictures like that. Especially since this thing has a lot of character and still a bit of twist.

So I've been putting some arrows through this bow. I group arrows well with it. I like that. Not as fast as my previous bows despite the higher draw weight...at least it doesn't SEEM as fast.

And it's got some hand shock. This is the first bow I've made that has even a little bit of hand shock. But I still don't have it to my optimum brace. It is very quiet though. I can see shooting a whitetail with it this season.

Could you post a picture at full draw with your hand at the bottom of the handle?

yeah... I'm waiting for my wife to return from out of town. I guess I could rig a tripod.... but what a pain.

I agree with SJ on the pic request. Can you also post a pic of the tips up close? If you sand down the belly side of the tips past the string grooves you can reduce a bit of the shock.

If this bow is heavier thean your others and you didn't increase total weight of arrow that may account for a bit of the shock too. I like 10 grains per pound.

I think we're getting into some fine tuning issues only. For that...you should feel good.

Chris

Thanks Chris... Yeah... ya know, I've really narrowed down the tips from the sides, but do have quite a bit of thickness to em. Way more than my other bows.

And I'm using my Easton Epic 600s which I use for all my 55# bows. This osage bow is currently drawing about 63#. So that might also be an issue. The arrows are flying pretty straight though... no complaint there.

I do feel good!

If you use the gizmo correctly you won't move stiff spots around. It should take you 5 or 6 check and scrape sessions for an average stiff spot. You may be getting too aggressive with you stiff spot removal. Go slowly, very slowly.

As soon as I get on the long string I find the weakest spot in a limb a swipe the gizmo the entire length of the limb and start working on the areas marked with the pencil.

I swipe the entire limb every time I make a gizmo check, not just the area I think needs work.

One cause of excessive hand shock is a tiller that's off. Jawge

I've been working quite a bit on that tiller since that picture was taken. So I hope that's not it Jawge.

Moss, the causes of a hand shock are pretty much bad tiller, heavy limbs the last 8 inches or so, heavy tips, limbs that are too heavy, or a handle that is bending too much in relation to the rest of the limb. Light arrows contribute and I like around 10 grains per lb. I don't know where your bow falls. Also, people that are coming from glass bows to selfbows may feel the shock a bit more. Jawge

Thanks Jawge. I do believe the bow has heavy limbs. Or maybe the tiller IS bad? I dunno. Seems good to me. All I know is that every other longbow I've made has no hand shock. But they are either boo backed ipe or tigerwood which have very slim upper limbs and tips compared to this bow.

I promise pictures soon...

Okie Dokie.... Here is where she lies now. I've got a temporary cane wrap on now to help with hand placement! I might just keep it. I think I'm gonna go with with the rustic, 'just dug up from an archaelogical site' look.

What happened??? Wrong picture... we shall try again:

Full draw:

tip:

It's starting to shoot nice now. It is drawing about 60# now and the hand shock has diminished. Still there.... but not so shocking.

Please don't comment on the state of my block. Shameful.

Tiller looks good to me as nearly as I can tell, Moss. Now, pay particular attention as to how it feels in the hand as draw and let down. Is she rocking on you or is a steady, even pressure. Jawge

will do Jawge. Really glad to hear you like the tiller! I'm looking forward to do the finishing touches but will shoot it for a week or so before she gets a polish, a neater cane wrap, and general cleaning up around tips and handle and such.

I'm pretty excited about this one. Seems more meaningful than my backed board bows for some reason. And this might be this season's stalk-hunting bow.

The full draw looks like you don't have your fingers in the right spot on the string looks like the top of the bow is tilted forward. When I pull the string at center the bow will cradle straight you might be holding it that way but if so it would really get to your wrist after awhile. When you hold your drawn bow it should center up in your hand and look the same as if it was on the tillering tree. Well that my goal when I tiller one anyway, and when I hand someone a bow I made they always like how it shoots most younger guys that shoot will out shoot me with all my bows but thats how old eyes are.three out of five arrows at twenty five yards after about 25 warm up arrows into a playing card but these guy started off compound and now shoot recurves and know the game of targets and deer hunting to a tee.

Man this is a tough audience! Just kidding. This is how I learn. I guess when I draw without an arrow I don't pay as much attention to how I hold the bow. I normally wouldn't have such a firm grip. I also had the timer on the camera and had to hold until the damn thing went off.

And... yeah... I barely group arrows in a playing card at 25 yards even with bows that I'm familiar with (except compounds - but that's cheating :-) ). I just ain't that good! But to my defense... those were my first three arrows out of the bow.

moss, i think its wonderfull,... ide call it just about done;..now go sand the crap out of it and put the finishing touches on!!...ide put some indian art on her?,....the more time sanding the better the finish etc...cool bow you should be proud,and just in time for hunting season!!...snake

Good job Moss, I'm glad you kept at your bow to get a shooter. That was not an easy stave to work to work with. Now put a good finish on her and go hunting. Dan

Thanks for the kind words boys. I am proud. I keep looking at the original pictures of the stave and am amazed a bow was carved from that. Such a far cry from the ipe boards I've been working on! First bow I've used minimal power tools on too.

Ya know though.... I'm looking at the full draw picture and my handle seems so long! I keep wondering if I should have made it shorter to get more limb working. But... I really wanted that big knot on the lower limb to be as much a part of the handle as it could... oh well.

I think you did a fine job carving the bow. Osage selfbows are a challenge, especially with the knots you had to contend with.

You did the best you could do. What more can a bowyer ask; the wood dictated in the end the bow within.

If she shoots an arrow consistently straight, doesn't shock too much after the release (residual energy), and has the weight to kill a deer, then you have a hunting bow. It's a trophy all by it's self. You cut, whittled, and scraped it from a log. What a feeling!

Give her an admirable name, finish and sign the bow, and take her hunting.

I'm privileged to be part of this whittling adventure.

Good luck, Russell

Looks good now, as far as the handle being too long, you did what was needed with the wood you had. Congratulations, I like it.

I couldn't have done it without ya Russel. With your build alongs and your guidance throughout.... invaluable. Now I just need to get some of your discipline with the details! Also... I realize I jumped into this with only bits and pieces of knowledge. Next time, I will do more research before I jump in. But when you have a piece of wood laying around and some tools... well, it's hard to keep your hands off.

Also a BIG thanks to Jawge and also to Bob, DCM, Eric and everybody else that had input on this project. This is a truly great resource to have at your fingertips. Hope to meet you all in person someday.

Well I will post a few pics of the final finish whenever that happens. This bow may ended up dropping a deer before it even has it's final finish!

Well I decided not to hunt this afternoon (I got skunked this morning... bears all over the place). Its just too hot. So I started finishing this bow. Mostly I've just stained it the way I want, put on a new wrap, and sealed for hunting. I've still got lots of sanding to do, but these pictures will show you what this puppy will look like and thereby conclude this epic thread.

I glued a piece of tigerwood on for a shelf.

If mine comes out looking half that cool, I'll be happy. Actually, I'll be strutting around with my chest all puffed out, just not here, online. The wife will have to witness it, although she almost never breaks out laughing , anymore. Almost never.

shredder

looks nice, congrats.B

Good luck with hunting with your new bow around Bayfield. I grew up sailing around the Apostle Islands and camping there. I love it up there. We'd drive up from Minneapolis to sail. My dad has a boat still on Madaline Island but it needs some repairs on the deck as it didn't pass inspection recently. You gotta love Apple Festival. Hopefully you'll have your own "apple festival" in that old orchard your hunting.

Thanks Shredder!

And thanks Brad for all your comments.

Gaur... Great place eh? I know the islands well. I do research on lake trout so I am in and among the islands all the time. One of these years I will apply for a permit to hunt Sand or Oak.

But deer hunting has been real tough up here the last couple of years. I sat for 5 and a half hours in that orchard and saw nothing but bears. That orchard might be more productive later when the green stuff is gone. On the upside, I took my dog grouse hunting and over 10 flushes and two down. So things are looking good for that. Thanks for your help and PM me next time you make it up here.

man this bow shoots straight. For some reason I group arrows better with this bow than any of my others.

Its because part of your soul is in it. I am starting to think selfbows are like dogs, you get one special one a lifetime. Good luck and shoot straight.

well I have a good dog right now too, so the stars are lining up. but you may be right...something is different about this bow. I have other sweeter shooting bows, but for whatever reason I can shoot this sucker. For the first time, I was going out to 50 yards and doing okay.

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