I switched to 3 fingers under and really like that(no arrow pinching, short recurve). However Im now getting sign the arrows are hitting the outside edge of the shelf VERY hard. To the point its wearing the shelf material right off. The arrows are flying awesome, cant understand why Im seeing this issue pop up. No I havent shot a bare shaft with 3 fingers. Also I read on this site about using a loose grip. I do that on my compound, so I tried it with the recurve. WOW, talk about noisy. The bow vibrates like crazy. I just installed the beaver balls, think it slowed my bow down a lot. Hard to tell though. Any ideas? thanks, Ken

Hard to tell without seeing it, but wear on the outside edge usually means that the spine is too stiff. Try a bare shaft and see. Good luck.

ranger got it again .

I still have 1 bare shaft, I will give it a try. Im currently shooting 2018 shafts out of my Kodiak Magnum(40# @ 28", but I draw a bit longer and the bow really stacks. If I recall correctly it was 46# @ my draw length). What is the best distance to try the bare shaft? thanks, Ken

Can you raise your nocking point up quite a bit?

2018's seem stiff based on your info.

JMHO, but bareshaft testing should be done at more than one distance. 15 - 20 - 25 yards gives you a more complete picture. Your form will have to be spot-on.

Unless you're shooting very heavy point weight, 2018's are too stiff for 46#.

Bummer to hear that. Im fairly new to recurves, whats the preffered arrow? My arrows are 30.5" long, with a 125 tip. I bought them from a shop that might not have known better. I just went onto Eastons website and your right, they recomend a lot less spine. They are suggesting 2216. thanks, Ken

A picture of the area would help. If the arrows are flying fine, perhaps it is the fletching striking the edge of the shelf.? Try rotating your nocks and see if that changes.

I will post a picture tonight/weekend. I have 5" feathers, and they are not showing wear. The white arrow wraps are showing wear in that area. The shelf is covered in velcro(loop side)and its cleanly gone on the outside 3/16" edge. Theres even a couple white scuff marks on the side of the shelf/handle where they have hit. Nothing has hit my hand, and if not for the obvious ware, you wouldnt know there was a problem watching the arrows fly. Ken

Ken - I have exactly the same wear pattern - I am interested to hear what the problem might be - I suppose it could be too much spine, although I am shooting a very heavy head (250 gr, 30 inch carbon Venture 400s - 55 lb longbow 28 inch draw). Arrow flight SEEMS ok... but maybe it could be better. Paul

I also think the 2018's are too stiff. The wear could also be from a nocking point being too low.

Mark

2018's are too stiff, I shoot a 45# Howatt Hunter and use 29" 1916's with 125gr tips, i also shoot 29.5" 2016's with 145gr tips. Both fly great from this set up.

Check the arrow chart on this site:

http://www.bowmaker.net/tuning.htm

As I stated above, Easton recommends the 2216 for my application. I cant see how thats less spine then a 2018, but the should know more then me. I understand the 22 is the diameter, the 16 is the wall thickness. I would think diameter would have a greater impact on spine, then wall thickness? I saw a guy post earlier about a place to buy 1 arrow, will have to see if he found a source. I sure hate to buy 6 like I recently did, only to find they are the wrong spine again. Thanks for all the replys by the way, very helpful. Ken

A 2216 is going to be worse. You can't go by the Easton site. Their charts are way off for trad gear. This link may help ...

http://www.arrowsbykelly.com/Spine_Charts.html

Ken, to understand eastons spines for aluminum you need to know what the numbers mean. The first two numbers are the outside diameter of the shaft in 64th's of an inch, hence 2018 has a 20/64 diameter which when reduced = 5/16". The second two numbers refer to the wall thickness in thousandths of an inch. Therefore a 2018 shaft is 5/16 outside diameter with a wall thickness of 18 thousandths. The actual spine deflection is a result of the relationship between the diameter and wall thickness, so sometimes the numbers seem odd for the spines they correlate to. When dealing with shafts of the same diameter, the thicker the wall, obviously the higher the spine. When you make the jump to another diameter things start to change. For instance, a 2018 has a spine of .464 and a 2115 has a spine of .461. They are almost exactly the same spine but the 2018 weighs like 12 grains per pound and the 2115 weighs 10.8. Eastons charts are not so good at determining spine for traditional bows, they always tend on the stiff side. You can view better charts at arrowsbykelly.com. For your particular application, I would shoot 2016's with 125 points.

Oops. Didnt read Mr. Magoos post. Follow the link he provided for the spine charts.

Ok, I went back and read every post, it seems you know about the numbering system. Well then, I still recommend a 2016 with 125 at your draw unless the bow is not cut to center or close to it.(Not sure where the Kodiak mags are cut to, never shot one) If it is not, then I recommend a 1916 with 125 up front.

OK guys, heres two pictures. The one pic shows black scuffs on the arrow wraps, where the arrows are hitting the shelf. Hard to believe this amount of contact does not show any porposing. I didnt get a chance to shoot the bare shaft tonight, but will tomorrow. From the replys, its looking like I will be off to a different bow shop tomorrow for different arrows. I will have him confirm the poundage at my draw length, and will have the arrow selection from the site above printed off for reference. Heres a couple pictures, hope you can see what Im talking about.

Ken

Heres a better pic of the shelf, hopefully.\

Ken

I think the nock point is too low???

I used to shoot 2016s from my 40# Bear recurve. I would also think the 2018s are too stiff.

Spine,nocking point, release.

I concur with several above. 2018s are WAY TOO STIFF! I shoot 2018s and 2117s from a 60# Howatt Hunter( which is actually 65#)at my 29.5" draw. You need 1916s or even 1816s from a 40 lb KMag. Most here know current easton charts are useless for recurve bows that arn't cut well past center. Someone did post an old chart here from early 70s that is more in line with recurve and longbows. I will see if I can find it in the old threads.

Just confirmed knock height, between 3/8 and 7/16 above shelf. Just grabbed one of my wifes arrows and its an 1816, to bad its about6" to short. lol Well its raining here today, so guess I cant cut the grass. 8^) Might as well head up to the bow shop and see if they have any 1916. Id really like to stick with 125gr tips, and seeing how far out this 2018 is, I dont think 2016 is enough change.

Do you recommend I leave them full length, or cut them to my current length of 30.5"? Thanks again for all your help. Ken

Ken - you have a side plate mounted in your sight window and I don't recall how much less-than-centre a Kmag is cut; the more the arrow is to the left, the weaker static spine you'll need.

Spine charts are only a starting point.

Anybody know how deep the shelf/sight window is cut on a Kmag??

If your arrows are flying great with broadheads the wear on the shelf doesnt mean much more than a turd in a catbox. Any spine chart is just a starting point not an unbendable law of physics,if you find what works, use it.

Broad heads are in the mail, should be here Monday. The force these arrows are contacting the shelf is severe. Even though they appear to be flying great, this is unacceptable contact to me. As I posted above, this wear started when I switched to 3 under. However I really like 3 under shooting, so I want to correct this arrow contact issue. I will likely have to replace the velcro on the shelf, should I put a hump in it like shown at the link http://www.bowmaker.net/tuning.htm or is that just exagerated for talking purposes. Currently I have it smooth across the entire shelf. Ken

I normally have my string nock set from 5/8" to 3/4" on most of my recurve bows. However I shoot split fingers. You still need to try lighter spine such as 1816 and 1916. Start full lenght and keep shortening 1/2" at a time until. Have you checked your actual draw lenght with this bow. depending on how deep the grip is cut they all varry as much as an inch or more. I use 30.5" arrows on several bows and 29.5 on others. ie.the K mag allows for a shorter arrow than a Howatt hunter. your 125 grain heads should work fine. Most compound shooters switching to recurve bows worry too much about little things that might make a big difference on a compound rig but a recurve off the shelf should be a very simple affair as long as you get the main things right such as arrow spine and nock point and good fletching, this is why I like it so much it keeps it real simple and fool proof.

Might just be pardox from shooting three under. I've been shooting 3 under for 15 yrs and all my recurves have similar wear, both of these bows shoot arrows with 160 snuffers like darts.Just sold a palmer with similar shelf wear but with wider shelf and was more pronounced. One of Murpheys laws..."If it aint broke, -leave it the f--- alone!"

other bow......

Went up to the local bow shop, old man owns it. He admired my bow for several minutes, talking about how he used to shoot one like it when hunting from a canoe. I showed him the shelf and told him I was there for new arrows. He laughed without even looking at my arrows. He said your plucking the string and pulling your hand away from your face. I was shocked, as I have just recently been trying to no pluck the string. I also read on here its important to keep my hand close to my face, which Im guilty of not doing that either. So in short, he told me everything is fine, you just need to shoot the hell out of it. He did say my arrows were heavy, not what he would be shooting. I asked if I could stop in one day and shoot in front of him. He said we could do that. Like I mentioned in another post, Im new to this stuff, only been shooting a recurve for a few years. Ive never been taught, or showed whats right/wrong. Im not saying my arrows arent too stiff, but until I get my form down, no arrow is going to be the right one for me. My wife was happy I didnt spend any money. 8^) Oh we didnt put the bow on the scale, but he said at my draw it would be about 48lbs. He said this bow is a 40X which means 43lbs @ 28". Anybody agree/disagree with the old guy? Ken

Unless your form is really poor and release is not smooth your arrows should not be making such bad contact with shelf unless they are of improper spine.You can shoot a bow from the hip and still get perfect flight with right arrow and nock point. Have the bow weight checked ar 28", 29" and 30" different bows increase differently incramently. Then after shooting for several shots have someone watch and mark arrow at full draw several times (stastically).This should paint a better picture of what is really going on. Don't go by what is written on bow . From my experience most are usually not accurate! I have had several bows that were anywhere from 1 to 8 pounds different than what was written on them. One Grizzly was marked one thing on the grip and a completely different number on the sight window under the strike plate(the latter was correct). Most Howats are actually 5 pounds heavier than marked. Shooting the hell out of it won't make a poorly matched arrow fly any better. Yours (spine) are too heavy.

Kenn1320, It IS broke and it needs fixing. I don't care if they do fly like darts. You ARE correct, it IS unacceptable.

If you're willing to talk, I'll try and help you. Send me a pm with a phone number and I will call you. That way you're out nothing. We can make better progress that way.

Long explanation made simple. If you're getting contact like that it's WRONG. The only part of that arrow that should touch is the front of it before you release and just maybe some feathers after the release. Don't let anyone tell you different.

As for the "old man", he may deserve some credit but without seeing you shoot I cannot say.

One other thing.

According to Eastons 2008 hunting catalog the above recommended 1816 arrows will not work IF you continue shooting a 30 1/2" inch arrow. According to what I am now looking at in that catalog 1816's only come "factory" 30" inches long. That takes them out of the running, unless you come across older arrows, which is unlikely. FACT!

Send a PM with your number and we can talk.

Bareshafting is a big help in situations like this. It is hard to get perfect but pretty easy to get close.

Quite frankly I do not trust anyones statements on how fletched shafts fly. These big 5" feathers will stabilize an arrow quickly, and will cover up a lot of flight problems.

Mark

Hi Mark.

Would you also agree that with a compound that being able to shoot a bullet hole thru paper would tell you if your bow set-up was tuned? Just wonderin'.

B.S.

My longbow has the same wear pattern, or it did anyway. Put more weight up front. I bet your arrows are to stiff. I added 40 grains up front and they clear nicely now. No wear anymore.

Rob

Bill -

Honestly I don't have a lot of experience with paper tuning but I think that it will probably tell you if you have good flight.

What I really meant is that people really should try to do something to quantify their arrow flight, and not just rely on "it looks pretty good to me".

Mark

Arrows are too stiff, but having had the same wear pattern when I switched to 3 under, I would say the 1st & easiest thing to try is raising your nock point - in fact, just try nocking above your present nock & see if that makes a difference. Not saying other problems don't exist, but 3 under requires a much higher nock point.

Also, you state your draw @ 29.5 but that you are new to trad - is this your draw length on a compound bow? If so, you probably drawing at least a full 2" less on the K-Mag. And - with all due respect to the old man of the archery shop - the 40X denotes 41# & X40 = 39#. But even so, the # marked under the side plate should be the correct one (though maybe not). Also, 2018's aren't too "heavy" (old Bear's like heavy arrows) the spine is too stiff, the 1916 or even the 2016's should be a lot better. And if you elevate the shelf your nock point needs to be higher yet.

Just try shooting your present arrows with the higher nock point & see if things improve. You can try the bareshaft too. It might just be me, but I've never had very good results bareshafting over 20yds.

When I got into trad shooting, I was outfitted by the owner of a compound shop (everything other than my bow) other than a set of cat whiskers, he got everything wrong! Had a very frustrating month or so before I got the correct knowledge & mentoring.

Mark, I agree with all you've stated so far.

The reason I asked about shooting thru paper with a compound...

...sometime ago I was getting perfect bullet holes thru paper at a distance of approx 4-8 feet with a compound shooting 2512's and a release. I thought this was good enough however, I did notice inconsistent fliers at ranges over 50 yards. I just left it that way.

After awhile (several weeks of shooting) with those 2512 arrows I started noticing 2 silver lines on each side of my arrows...all of them...from the tip to the nock. The orange anodizing was being worn off of my arrows. Upon inspection the only conclusion I came to was that spring tension on the rest was set much too tight. (NOTE: I had pro shooters tell me to leave it be...I couldn't do it though.)I could see that the prongs were getting extreme wear. The arrow was riding the prongs of the rest from the moment of the shot until the arrow left the string, lines all the way to the nock keep in mind. If I would have kept shooting the rest would eventually wear holes or grooves in those arrows. Keep in mind the bullet holes thru paper and the fact that most release shooters only tune thru paper anyway, and most of the "techxsperts" don't feel it's necessary to tune the bareshaft way...or bareshaft tune...which is exactly what I immediately did with those arrows. They flew like crap. Luckily the only thing I had to do was loosen the spring tension and the bareshafts flew perfect and impacted in the "X". I got lucky and picked the correct shaft to start with. Bare in mind most compound and release shooters/coaches don't feel bareshaft tuning is necessary because of the mechanical release being more forgiving or less "touchy". My stance is different...I feel that if a person is looking for as close to "PERFECT ARROW FLIGHT" as possible, it is necessary to bareshaft tune ANY BOW SET-UP with any style or choice of bow or method of release.

NOTE: As regards shooting compounds paper tuning is regarded as the standard to tune a compound set-up. Meaning it should tell you if your set-up is right. Most think it's an end all to tuning. I say...only a starting point.

My point is:

With any tuning method, just as with spine charts, they are all starting points for "fine tuning". The end results should only be dictated by the groups themselves AND sometimes we must settle for SOME MINOR contact. Bareshaft Tuning WILL determine the correct spine arrow for your "set-up". Notice; I didn't say "bow" and/or "poundage" as how you grip the bow and how you release affects this. Thus, very few people shooting exactly the same bow/arrow combinations get "EXACTLY" the same bareshaft impacts. Bareshafting tunes the bow/arrow combination to "YOU", which makes in an individual process. Understand?

This fella's problem is in fact NOT a minor problem.

Many suggestions are close and many are, I feel, way off.

I don't think we have enough information for closely accurate suggestions just yet.

To start with he needs to determine the following;

1. How long he wants his arrows to be. Cut close to front of bow or longer. It's up to him, but a decision needs to made on this first, or after determining correct poundage for his draw lenght.

2. These arrows will then need to have a mark put on each arrow (preferably all of them to get an accurate average)with a black or white marker. This "mark" should be placed on the arrow at full draw and should be at the front of the bow. In other words, the line represents the front of the bow and allows an accurate way to determine poundage at that draw. A sharpy marker works good. Remember a thin line is more accurate than a thick one. How can a shooter expect his shooting to be more accurate than he is when paying attention to details? So pay attension to these details. Yes...I am picky...you don't have to be and I won't chastise you for it. Just don't complain about problems then. This mark is your AMO/ATA draw length.

3. You will then need to put the arrow on that bow, place bow on bow scale and draw the bow so the line on the arrow meets the front of the bow and THEN check the POUNDAGE. Your arrows don't have to be cut at this line. You "can" SHOOT "and" TUNE longer arrows if you wish. The line represents your AMO/ATA draw length and NOT your arrow length and allows you an accurate way to determine the bow poundage at that length.

4. Take the poundage reading you get, then decide what arrow length to cut your arrows. This is when you determine which arrows to pick from spine charts.

5. Though not necessary but recommended, remove strike plate and rest and then place something...a toothpick or anything...behind the strike plate AND underneath the shelf rest even with the pivot point of the grip. Replace strike plate and rest making sure whatever you use remains directly above the pivot pont of the grip. This creates a channel for fletch clearance. I haven't found this necessary with all bow/arrow combinations but just in case...

6. Set your nocking point high and leave it there until correct arrow spine is determined, which may take several sizes of bare shafts and/or point weight combinations. As you can see, it may get pretty involved but it's worth it.

Now we're ready to start shooting. Remember this:

Right handed- bareshaft impacts right with nock being left, so called "nock left"=weak shaft. If bareshaft impacts left with nock being right, so called "nock right"=stiff shaft.

Left handed-bareshaft impacts right with nock being left, so called "nock left"=stiff shaft. If bareshaft impacts left with nock being right, so called "nock right"=weak shaft. 7. Start with drawing the bow completely vertical. If you cant the bow when you shoot, draw with bow vertical then bend at the waiste to cant the bow. This will allow you to maintain good form and alignment and should allow hand torque on the string to maintain constant.

At this point you can start bareshaft tuning from around 15 yards to as far out as you wish, providing you're getting good results. I prefer to eventually move out to the longer ranges as fine tuning then becomes micro tuning.

8. Adjust nocking point when correct spine, shaft/point weight combinations, is determined. Again, longer ranges allow for more micro tuning here.

9. Fletch some arrows, then cut flteching off only leaving the hard quill and start the process again. If you get contact you may have to turn the nocks slightly until no contact with the quills are made. Once contact with quills is resolved, if it's a problem at all, now refletch the arrows. At this time minor fletching contact is acceptable. Your set-up is now ready for long range micro tuning, "if you want". This can be accomplished by tuning weights on the tip end and at the nock (may require additional nock adapters and weights).

10. Most important...have fun.

Canting the bow can present problems when reading your arrows. Some find it confusing while others do not. For an example shoot a few arrows with bow in vertical position and then shoot a few more bending at the waise to cant the bow. Compare group locations. I won't attempt to explain this here as I'm left handed and at times I type something the opposite of what is needed.

A bareshaft 2018 will determine if in fact the shaft is too stiff. If it is try adding weight first. Always make sure you get, not clean necessarily, but consistant releases too. A bad release that is consistent is predictable and tunable.

I will make a guestimate based on a solid weight measurement, a solid draw length measurement(line on arrow marked at front of bow), a solid arrow length measuremnt, and a solid number on what point weight you wish to shoot. Without these "solid" numbers I can't help you. Some may give you a lucky guess, yet others may have enough experience and knowledge to know offhand.

Best regards.

B.S.

OK, went to a bow shop by work on my lunch break. Using a marked arrow, my draw length to the front of the riser is 29". Using that 29" the bow is holding 45-46lbs. I have 1 bare 2018 shaft, 3 fletched. To test that shaft, I should stand at 15yds and shoot all 4 arrows and determine if the bare one hits left or right of the 3 that are fletched? Repeat as needed to determine a trend, not just a flyer correct? This bow shop has both 1916 and 2016 XX75 camo hunters in stock, and said he "might" sell me 3 arrows at a time. Weather permitting, I will shoot the bow tonight. Ken

I shot tonight, but it was already dark out when I got home. Must be an off day, cause I wasnt really "grouping" very well. The bare shaft was always in the group, but was hitting with the knock to the right. According to your advice above, thats a stiff shaft. One thing to note, first shot with the bare shaft didnt even hit the target. I ended up shooting "all" my arrows on top of the knock. Im shooting into a layered target, similar to the block(gander mounting special). Layers were horizontal. I was doing well at keeping my hand against my face, but having trouble just dropping the string like the old guy said. I find Im plucking, trying to flick my fingers off the string. I know thats wrong, but Im working on it. I was also drawing outside, then bringing my hand into my anchor point(also wrong). I should be drawing straight back and brushing my face correct? thanks, Ken

layerd targets are no good good for bare shaft testing; get a block of foam or some non grained material .The layered material has a straightening effect on the arrow so you will get false readings.

Updated: Well a quick recap. My Kmag is 45-46lbs @ 29" shooting 2018 @ 30.5" with 125gr tips. BH is 8.75". Im shooting 3 under and getting horrible shelf wear. Shooting a bare shaft has shown nock right, indicating too stiff of a spine. I picked up some full length/bare shaft(30.75")1918 arrows tonight, as suggested above. I cannot hit the target at 15yds. The arrows are flying nock high, hitting about 10yds in front of me. They appear to be nock straight, but hard to tell. I messed with moving the nock up and down the string, cannot get the nock high to go away. I took 1 of them, and sanded down the nock for proper fitment of the string, that didnt fix the problem. Keep in mind my fletched 2018's are hitting the mark, with the bare 2018 flying a tad low, but nock high. Am I going to find the 1918 shafts are SUPER sensitive to nock alignment, or are they under spined for 3 under shooting on a 52" bow? Ken

Do you mean 1916 easton shafts. I am not aware that they currently make a 1918 which would be stiffer and heavier than 1916s. A little nock high with bare shaft is actually acceptable at testing distance of 12 to 15 yards. Is your nock point 1/2 to 5/8" above square to shelf? What is your tiller measurements. Keep folling around with it you need to do stastical trial and error to start to see what is consistant. One last thing have someone take a picture of your draw hand elbow at full draw. some people have naturally high elbow when at anchor and this puts torque on string and release causing a less than ideal release. good luck and have fun with it.

Here is the best tuning help I am familiar with O L sometimes posts here as Pokandhope or something similar check this site out http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html Good luck!

Get you some 1916's - all of my 40#-50# bows in the past have liked them best. In the meantime, try shooting cock-feather in towards the bow.

O L is known here as pokenhope type in his handle and you will find a wealth of information .

Sorry guys, they are 1916 XX75 shafts. My nock point is currently 3/4" high of shelf, but like I said I put the arrow nock under it, over it, 1 nock gap under, 2 nock gap under, etc. Unless the arrow is slipping up the string to that nock point during the power stroke, its not making a difference where I place it on the shaft. As for tiller, where do you measure it on a 1 piece recurve? Its not adjustable, so does it matter what the tiller is at?

NativeCraft, Im shooting bare shafts at this point.

Magwah, the bare shaft 2018 hits the target a bit lower then the fletched 2018's. However in the same group of arrows, all 3 1916's are going out about 10yds and diving into the ground, about 5yds short of the target.

I shoot a 44# 60" Mahaska recurve that has the same wear on the shelf. I tried 2018's and they wobble/rotate slowly in flight. 50-55 lb laminated birch shafts at 28" fly perfectly. They still wear on the shelf so I glue a 1/8" thick x 1" x 1/2" leather arrow rest plate on the riser and it wears the edge out after about 1000 shots. I don't worry about it since the leather takes the abuse and the arrows fly well.

While we're at it, what wood spine "should" I be using? 3-rivers charts show 55-60 lb. I bought some 55-60 PO cedar and they don't fly well either. 1916's don't fly well either. All the arrows that don't fly well shoot extreme nock high without feathers and it can't be corrected with nock height adjustment. I love the laminated birch shafts but they are about 680 grains and I shoot low over about 15 yards.

ken, The bare shaft test with the 2018 hitting low is usually a indication of the nock point being too high. I still think they are too stiff for 40 to 45#. I would keep trying the 1916 from my and many others here they are the best match for a bow at your draw weight. I'd be curious what happens when you shoot same arrows from a different(longer) bow. this would tell if your K Mag has a problem with tiller etc. If one limb is stronger than another it can cause problems and affect things adversly. I have had a few bows that I just could never get to shoot right. Maybe you are suffering from string pinch on a 52" K Mag at your 30" draw. Also why not try shooting split fingers to see if that makes a difference? Maybe three under is not for you.

Unless I missed it in this long thread, I think the problem is the three under finger setup you prefer. The bow was probably tillered for split finger if it's a Bear bow.

When I shot split finger, I suffered from nock pinch. I have shot a tab, fingers, even those rubber things you can put on the string. Split fingers made it difficult at best, to shoot this bow. Instead of focusing on the target, I would draw and look down to check the arrow was still on the shelf(which it wasnt about 40% of the time). With 3 under, I focus on the target 100% and dont even look at the arrow anymore. Could this bow be tillered for split finger and not 3 under, Im sure thats a possibility. I need to search and find out how to check the tiller(on a recurve). It appears to me that this bow likes the 1916 in terms of left/right spine, but that arrow is too weak for up/down forces of 3 under with such a short bow. I cannot afford a new bow at this time, and really hate to sell this one to trade up. I will likely replace my shelf material again, and just shoot it with a slightly over spined 2018 with 3 under. If the broad heads fly true, I will deal with the shelf wear till I can afford a 64"+ long bow. I may give it one last try with a 2016, as that might be a compromise for the 3 under and the bows draw force. Maybe the 1916 was to much of a spine change, given my style of shooting. Ken

I think your problem is mainly drawing 30 inches on a 52 inch bow. Your gonna be hard pressed to maintain consistency IMO

Its really tough to learn on a short bow.

"My nock point is currently 3/4" high of shelf, but like I said I put the arrow nock under it, over it, 1 nock gap under, 2 nock gap under, etc. Unless the arrow is slipping up the string to that nock point during the power stroke, its not making a difference where I place it on the shaft."

Ken - I'd strongly recommend you loosen up the nock-set and lower it about a 1/16" at a time & RE-CLAMP it on the string, then re-test. You have to sneak up on this adjustment, with the arrow nock being CAPTIVE on the string.

"As for tiller, where do you measure it on a 1 piece recurve?" I will send some photos that show fade-outs on the limbs [where to measure tiller]

"Its not adjustable, so does it matter what the tiller is at?" If it's way off, then we know the bow has problems.

Sounds like there's a lot going on here - nock point, 3 under, stiff arrows, short bow/long draw, etc. I had a similar wear pattern developing with a longbow, and found that by using a real deep hook with my split-finger draw it just went away. In my case it obviously had something to do with finger pluck and the release.

Well guys, after talking with StringDrivenThing on the phone several times, I think its all worked out. He had a theory or two, and I listened. He suggested using a rest, and not shooting off the shelf. I believe his theory was, due to the short bow and my 3 under, it was imperative that I get my draw point back to the center of the bow. If I got that wrong SDT, feel free to correct me. I set my nock set at 1/2" above the rest, and placed the rest pivot at in line with the throat of the grip. The picture is blurry, my appologies. Now for the arrow testing. The bare shafts(2018 & 1916)both hit the target at 20yds. I noticed however the 1916 arrows are kicking big time. I moved in to 12yds and shot all the arrows. You can see the results in the last picture. The camo arrow is the 1916 and its more then obvious its WAY under spine. The 2018 is almost straight, only showing a slight over spine. While a 2016 might be the ticket, I feel the 2018's will work for this year. If I have broad head trouble, I will reconsider that statement. Thanks to all who posted, there was good info in all of them. And special thanks to SDT & Viper. Ken

And here is the target. I know some commented that a layered target can give false readings. Well while that may be true, I could visually see the camo arrow going sideways in the air, so I know this nock left is not false. Also my nock right on the 2018 has improved, so I feel this layered target is showing a trend at lest. Is it perfect, likely not.

Ken, thank you. You just completed TRAD 101. Now welcome to TRAD 202! [grin]

The hell with my stringdriven theories, you just enjoy what works for you and keep flinging arrows.

Ken, glad you got the help you was looking for.

For those who may have followed this thread...

...the reason I didn't get back with Ken is because I lost power for 7 days because of hurricane Ike.

A hurricane in Ohio...go figure. Hope I never live to witness that again.

Best regards.

Bill

ttt

I have had shelf wear on a bow that would bare shaft a carbon perfect. I switched to cock feather in and left wing feathers and it didn't touch outside of shelf again

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