Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


two nockpoints make a difference?

Messages posted to thread:
charley 14-Jan-10
K Cummings 14-Jan-10
Viper 14-Jan-10
Okiak 14-Jan-10
Okiak 14-Jan-10
limbwalker 14-Jan-10
Al 14-Jan-10
Coop 14-Jan-10
2fletch 14-Jan-10
Bender 14-Jan-10
rpk@work 15-Jan-10
Viper 15-Jan-10
cecil 15-Jan-10
K Cummings 15-Jan-10
Craig Loberger 15-Jan-10
John-Doc 15-Jan-10
AndyB 15-Jan-10
Doug SC 15-Jan-10
JRW 15-Jan-10
Outbackbob48 15-Jan-10
Okiak 15-Jan-10
grey wolf 15-Jan-10
charley 16-Jan-10
GLF 16-Jan-10
Sparta-T on laptop 16-Jan-10
Ravenbows 16-Jan-10
Rod Jenkins 16-Jan-10
Bender 16-Jan-10
From: charley
Date: 14-Jan-10




i shoot three under, and use a second nockpoint under the arrow like a spacer. something i brought with me from the wheel bows. i kinda think flights a little better. anybody else do it? whatcha think?

From: K Cummings
Date: 14-Jan-10




Lancaster Archery did a "bow test" weekend last year where you could come in and test your setup and have a high speed video done. I wasn't there but I remember Lee telling me that one of the very surprising things they noticed on the high speed videos was that for the 3 under shooters, upon release, if there wasn't a nockset below the nock, the nock tended to slip down the string substantially and even caused some shelf contact. If my memorey serves me correctly, with the lower nock set, the slipping didn't occur, nor did the shelf contact.

After that, I started using a second nock set just in case.

Maybe someone that was there could elaborate a little.

KPC

From: Viper
Date: 14-Jan-10




charley -

If you're string walking, you'll need two.

If you're using speed or self nocks that are way too loose on the string (IMHO) maybe.

If your nocks have a decent purchase on the string, one is enough.

If you plan on shooting in some "trad" classes, check the rules first.

Despite certain reports to the contrary, the majority of archers shoot with a single nocking point and have zero problems.

A second nocking point is pretty easy to set up (I use masking tape) and see if it makes any difference. If it does, either use it, or figure out the real problem.

BTW - I've used two in the passed and noticed zero difference.

Viper out.

From: Okiak
Date: 14-Jan-10




There is an interesting article in the latest TBH magazine by Jason Wesbrock. The article relates advice as given by Ken Beck. According to Ken 1 out of 6 people have a release that causes the the arrow to slide down the string. The arrow strikes the shelf and bounces up. No matter how much the nock point on the string is adjusted the shaft shoots nock high. The rest of the article shows how to place a double nock set on the string that is conducive to those that nock their arrows by touch. Essentially a brass nock point above a serving. You could tie a simple lower nock point with dental floss to give it a try. Make sure you leave a little extra space between the nock points to avoid pinch at full draw. A double nock set solved this very problem one of our club members was experiencing last week.

From: Okiak
Date: 14-Jan-10




Should have added that he is a 3 under shooter.

From: limbwalker
Date: 14-Jan-10




Yes, it makes a difference. I don't set up a bow without two anymore...

John.

From: Al
Date: 14-Jan-10




If you have a perfect nock fit and a perfect release you don't need one. Being human I just put on a second nock point.

From: Coop
Date: 14-Jan-10




Personally I shoot split fingers with a Neet tab with a comfortable felt finger spacer. Can't see how and haven't seen how a second nock point can help but everyone is a little different. Maybe with 3 under but for the life of me I can't see any advantages to using a BRASS nocking point anywhere.

From: 2fletch
Date: 14-Jan-10




I was going to put another nock point on for a second arrow. Guess that means I need three.

From: Bender
Date: 14-Jan-10




The "real problem" is that is has been shown that even when using a release attached directly to the string the nock slides down into the space formerly occupied by the release jaws. The thicker the jaws, the further the nock slides. Not much of a problem when using an elevated magnetic rest on a metal riser recurve, or a fall away rest on a compound. Introduce the vagaries of the human hand coupled with shooting directly off the shelf, and yes there is a significant chance of there being "real problems". Second nock set? Nothing to lose and potentially lots to gain.

From: rpk@work
Date: 15-Jan-10




I never did any experiments, but I tie on two nock points figuring it won't hurt anything and it may help.

From: Viper
Date: 15-Jan-10




Gents -

Lets understand a few things.

First, unless you tune your equipment AND keep score you don't get a vote. Huh?

Double nocking points are an option, always have been.

IF you know how to tune your equipment (including nock tightness on the string) and determine that using a double nocking point results in consistently higher scores, above statistical error, then it would be silly not to use two.

IF you do the same tests and see NO difference in scores, then if falls into the "preference" category.

This is something that's so easy to test, there's no reason not to. Take a piece of masking tape and make a temporary nocking point about 2x the width of your nocks below your normal one. Shoot a few rounds each way over a few days and see for yourself. Certainly doesn't cost anything. That way you don't have to take anyone's word for it.

For a lot of us who've been doing this for a while, we've done exactly that. Just "stuff" we've tried throughout the years.

High speed photograpghy is a great tool for learning/understanding what happens at speeds we normally can't see. The only thing to remember, is that the conclusions drawn MUST correspond to reality. The first time most of us saw the amplitude of paradox a properly tuned arrow, it made us think "how the hell could that thing ever hit the target?". Yet, it does.

So I'd like to invite you to try it. I use one a single nocking point, because these days, if I can't see a bone fide benefit to something, I don't bother, and yes, YMMV.

BTW - I don't know about you guys, but with a double nocking point, sooner or latter, I WILL nock under the wrong one.

Viper out.

From: cecil
Date: 15-Jan-10




I shoot three under I have only used one for a few years. never had any problem. I do have my serving to where it fits the nocks that if you give it a good tap it will fall off. one works good for me.

From: K Cummings
Date: 15-Jan-10




"BTW - I don't know about you guys, but with a double nocking point, sooner or latter, I WILL nock under the wrong one."

Just a hint. When you have two nock points, the nock goes between them.

:>)

KPC

From: Craig Loberger
Date: 15-Jan-10




I like having 2 nocks when I'm hunting. It keeps the arrow from sliding down from the weight of my fingers resting on the arrow when the bottom limb is on the ground or in the pocket I have sewn above my knee for use when I'm standing.

From: John-Doc
Date: 15-Jan-10




Also, 2 nocking points simplifies teaching and prevents problems when working with kids.

From: AndyB
Date: 15-Jan-10




I shoot 3-under and have only had problems requiring a second nock set when the nocks fit far too loosely, due to the specific nock and the specific string and serving thickness. I used serving string to create a suitable second nockset under the nock, just thick enough to stop the nock from sliding down. Looking back I really believe that having the right fit between the string and the nocks you are using is the correct solution, and the second nock set will not then be needed.

From: Doug SC
Date: 15-Jan-10




I have heard that carbon arrows often need the two nocks to get the tail high out.

I make my own strings, and arrows just so I can get things how I want them. I always fit the arrows nock to the string with extra serving or dental tape if needed. I like a dimple to form in the serving where the arrow's nock will fit nicely with a serving or dental tape wrap as a nock point above the arrow. Metal nocks are fine if you prefer them. The bottom of the dimple sort of acts as a second nock below the arrow, and will keep and arrow’s nock in place on the string. This is just another potential option that I didn’t see on this thread.

If you are having problems with a tail high bare shaft that you just can't get rid of the tail high it is certainly worth a try to put a nock below the arrow as you tune. Masking tape works very well as a nock point when tuning.

As an aside some folks like Daddy Bear nock their arrow over the nock point on the string. They do so because they can be quicker nocking a second arrow, and I am willing to bet the arrow doesn't slip down the string when they shoot. Now if it slips up on the string I just don't know.

Nocking over the nock isn't favored so much for target archery, but for several quick shots in a row it is considered better. There is a fairly well know western bowyer that is also known for trick shots and aerial targets. His name slips my mind, but I think his last name begins with a K, and I believe he built Hill sytle longbows. He recommended nocking over, and it severed him well when he put several arrows into a bear that charged him one time while hunting.

From: JRW
Date: 15-Jan-10




Great thread, folks.

Kevin brought up the high speed video evidence from Lancaster Archery. It's pretty hard to argue with that reality.

John says he always uses two because it does make a difference. I tend to take his advice about bow tuning and shooting since he's a former Olympic archer -- that's what we call REAL credentials.

As far as nocking under the wrong nock point; I have it on very good authority from the author of the article Okiak referenced that with the setup mentoned in that piece, nocking incorrectly is pretty much impossible. :)

From: Outbackbob48
Date: 15-Jan-10




"two knock points make a difference" A huge difference when you knock under the wrong one, I know this won't happen to me. Not until the moment of truth comes on the buck of a lifetime, thats how ole murphy works, to me a second knock is just something else to go wrong. Just my .02 worth Bob

From: Okiak
Date: 15-Jan-10




Hope you guys have a copy of the last TBH magazine. The a fore mentioned article (see post above) was written to explain how to set up a foolproof double nock set. As mentioned it used one brass nock set and a long serving for the lower nock set with a small gap between. The intention of which is to allow nocking of an arrow by feel.

From: grey wolf
Date: 15-Jan-10




Viper is bloviating as usual. Not that Tony doesn't have some good info to pass along and a ton of experience, but he is a self admitted split finger (Mediterranean style) shooter.

When it comes to three under shooting technique, which is what the original question was about, two nocking points are preferred, for good reasons and not just to prevent the arrow slipping down the string. The lower nock is a reference and helps to keep pressure off the arrow. I use a brass nock for the upper and an eliminator button for the lower. Those of you that don't know what an eliminator button is, ask one of your compound shooting buddies that hooks his release aid on the string.

Photobucket

Here's a simple tied on set up.

Photobucket

From: charley
Date: 16-Jan-10




never seen anybody use the wrong nock point yet. grey wolfs eliminatar button looks like a good idea it would make tuneing faster if nothing else. i'll probably try it.

From: GLF
Date: 16-Jan-10




I only use 2 nocks if my nocks are too loose. Grey wolf I could never have mine as close as yours are. With my long draw and shooting 3 under the string is at such an acute angle that the nock points that close together would bend the back of my arrow downward and put undue wear on my nocks. "IF" I use 2 nock points I put them double nock width apart. If your servings the right size ya don't need 2 nocks tho.

From: Sparta-T on laptop Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 16-Jan-10




"John says he always uses two because it does make a difference. I tend to take his advice about bow tuning and shooting since he's a former Olympic archer -- that's what we call REAL credentials.

As far as nocking under the wrong nock point; I have it on very good authority from the author of the article Okiak referenced that with the setup mentoned in that piece, nocking incorrectly is pretty much impossible. :)" ~JRW

But Jason, you only write articles for a national magazine.......Don't you know that you have to author a book to be a "real" expert????? Sheesh......... ;^)

TL

From: Ravenbows
Date: 16-Jan-10




Did howard hill use two nocks? Does Byron Ferguson? I dont think so and the gents are or were shooting aspirin out of the air.

No more debate needed............:-)

From: Rod Jenkins Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 16-Jan-10




With longer draw length 3 UNDER SHOOTERS, a second nock is a necessity...shooters with shorter draw lengths, not so much on longer bows, but moves into the necessity area, with shorter bows and the increased string angles that come with short bows.

From: Bender
Date: 16-Jan-10




I turkey hunt, sometimes I get one sometimes I don't. I am also the current CA state longbow champion. I'm going to go shoot the state indoor later today. I have won that event for the last 4 consecutive years. I have won the Field and the 900 for the last 2 years. Do I get a "vote" or am SOL?





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