Dry Fired, Nope!

I think he means shot with an arrow but not through the chrono; I hope anyways. I'd say nope too if not. -Ron

is this what shooting traditional bows is coming to?i am more interested in how the bow feels in your hand.how smooth it draws finish work etc... if all i wanted was speed i would shoot a wheel bow.

This sounds GREAT.... for the "administrator". He gets a free bow every six months, and the fastest, too. I'll pass.

Sorry. I might enter just for fun, but what is the point of keeping a bunch of bows you didn't make, while losing your best bow? huh?

I'd rather pay a 10.00 entry fee, but I might go see it since I only live an hour away.

i am a bowbuilder and i still dont understand why all your worried about is just speed? PS i dont see many bowbuilders jumping on this ready to (give) their bows away.cant understand that.

Why not just send in a slow bow, that way You can get it back...L.O.L....Ibex, whats up with the Dry-Fire??...I agree that a good bow should be able to handle it, at least a few times, but why do it on purpose?..The whole thing sounds pretty cool to Me, though...Harpman

Sounds like fun, but like others would like to know why would you dry fire a bow first? What does that prove? Are you testing to see if it is not like a ULTRA high performance, one shot only/disposable flight bow? Why the dry fire?

Cool idea! Might be interested!

CR

I would pay my own shipping both ways. I would also pay a small amount to whoever does the testing.

But I'm not going to give away my best bow.

BBP

Steve- i think this is a good idea and could be a lot of fun for us hobby guys! i am with BBP though, i want to keep the bow...... and i know for a fact that my carbon recurve limb is redlined.....somebody might get hurt if they dryfire it LMAO! if you do dryfire them, we should have a category for the loudest bang!!!

Steve and myself have been talking about this for awhile. The point behind this is who can build the most efficient bow. This isn't about beauty it's about function. You don't need to send in a work of art. Just throw a basic bow together and lets see what you've got. It seems like every week there is a new guy sending in a picture of there latest bow with some claim about it shooting 200+ fps. Let's start a biannual competition to prove it. Me and Steve are open to ideas here. The reason behind the dry fire idea is the bow needs to be durable not some "balls to the wall, won't make it 1 year without falling apart bow". I personally dry fired my t/d hybrid bow multiple times before I offered to make them for friends. The Hoyt factory in SLC Utah dry fires there recurves thousands of times to show the limbs are going to be durable. This is all for fun and we really want to see this happen, so lets all figure something out. I have a few local guys that are in and so does Steve, so come on guys. Mike

Ibex, I'm a redneck and I'll come watch and sign one of them papers!! I'm just up in Ogden.

What sort of bowyer would take pleasure in seeing his creation dryfired?

Mad-dog,

You might take a little pleasure in seeing one of your creations being fired on the Howling Coyote thread! A write-up with quality pics is still pending.

Mike

i stand by the dry fire i know my bows will take it, just did it the other day by mistake of course, BBP backed up a little could not understand why. lol im in keep us posted

mike

There's a lot more to a bow's function than speed... regardless of whether it's a hunting bow, target bow, or other. Such judging would be akin to NOT tasting the pies in a pie making contest.

When it comes to a bow's funtionality, quality, or 'ranking' for any purpose, speed is just one ingredient, and precisely 'how much you put in' isn't as important as what it creates when blended with all the other ingredients.

I allready tested my adcock

Well it seems not getting the bows back and the dryfire thing is the hold up.Since all you are really going for in the test is numbers just forget the dryfire and send everyone's bow back when done.Just post the results with accurate numbers and the winner can take pride in that instead of getting bows that are playing second fiddle to the ones he built and losing his own better bow. :)The tester get's nothing but if you switch the testing around between the guys that have something to enter so no one person has to do all the work no one should mind.Sounds fun and most people will enjoy reading about the test. jmo

I disagree Kurve.Anything like you say would be subjective and would not mean anything to anyone but the guy shooting.Just a slightly different grip on a bow makes all the differance in the world to a person so no of that stuff should be relative.I think raw numbers is what this is all about so shooting with the machine should be the extent of it. jmo

Speed alone doesn't constitute efficiency. If something is to get the job done, it needs to have a lot more qualities. Must have been a long winter.

I Already tested mine too, no blind, no silencers, B-50 string, 28 yrd shot, 60 yard recovery. To me that speaks louder than any results a machine could give me, I consider it a success.

Ibex,

I think your main point is to get some unbiased speed testing. I also would like that.

Too many inflated speed numbers being posted here.

You other guys who consider our R&D as unimportant, PLEASE IGNORE US.

BBP

>>--Mad-dog--> and bohuna, Great pics! Good job. No further testing neccessary... 8^)

This particualar test is just about speed, truth is that a fast bow will almost always be a smooth bow, and have low handshock. The other factors can easily be built in once the performance recipe is established. I have never heard a good arguement against making a bow faster. Since bow building began over 10,000 years ago it has been most bowyers goal. I say work out the details and go for it, Great way to raise the bar, it also puts some pressure on the big manufacturers to stop making pretty bows that just "work" Steve

keep the dryfire. if one dryfire hurts the bow, it's a piece of s*!t anyway.

I like your line of thinking predator. To all those thinking a slow arrow hitting the mark is better than a fast miss just ignore this thread please. This thread pertains to bow makers who want to see what their creations are capable of. I have arranged to use the shooting lanes of the local pro shop which is equipped with a top of the line "hooter shooter" shooting machine and I'll set up tandem chronos. This will take all the human error factor out. All bows will be drawn to exactly 28" and shot 6 times. The fastest average time wins, simple as that. Mike

Steve, I am going to go ahead and send away for a hooter shooter for myself. I have been wanting to set up a test lab here for a long time. We should establish a standardized criteria for testing. I think amo is pretty well established allready but string weight and things like that would be nice to compare apples to apples to as well. I would also be interested in doing tests for guys who custom build for shorter or longer draw lengths, in my view thsi is where the real bowyers standout. I am working on something now that can show how much mass is being moved over time and distance. This might project out some helpful performance based ratios. Steve

Kurve, I don't think this about building dragsters, that was the whole point to dry firing the bow which I agree with, If I had it my way I would dry fire it at least a dozen times. This is about designing and building hunting and target bows that are durable and dependable. Steve

Durable and dependable? Well, which is it? Is it 'just about speed', or isn't it?

LOL

This sounds like a nigerian bank scam! "

Dearest Sir, I moodala golaskawichenhimer. I call you to offer special for bow c ontest". "I test bows of tradition for speed. The champion winner get four of compediters bows to keep for exclusive GRAND prize of champions." The winning bow will be offerd to nigearian king for honor of contest to gloryfie the man who make bows of excelence." "Send me you bow to participate intest of bow maker supreme champion speed test" Sincearly thanks of a thousnd lamas.

MG, Nigearian government bow test of champions speed..

The Bear bow company had a machine that repeatedly dry fired bows in a test. It was in a test enclosure. If forget how long the test would go on for, but it was dozens or hundreds of shots. Those were not high performance bows at the time, and they were marketed on their ability to be used as wadding staffs. Nonetheless dryfiring does happen a nock blows etc...

I think you could keep the dryfire thing, but you should move it to the end of the test not the beginning. If something breaks the bow is disqualified or maybe, though this would be time consuming, you could dry fire it then chrono it one last shot to see if it was affected.

Another advantage of the dry firing and non-returning part would be that it would allow people to send experimental bows and not feel the need to spend a lot of time on finishing.

Also if you keep the dryfiring and then return the bow, what about your liability if it then hurts someone. It would be better to keep and destroy.

Shipping is going to be a big cost, so the bigger guys probably don't mind you keeping and the little guy will probably prefer to save the postage.

You may have to change the rules as time goes by, if it works, because if it became prestigious, then it would be possible that people would build expensive bows for it. Or maybe it will become popular but remain low key and folks won't mind raw ugly bows they don't need to have returned. Though If I had produced the world record bow, and by some fluke the record stood for a long time then I guess I would want that bow.

If the event were adjusted to be more in line with what James Wrenn suggested above, I would reconsider and probably send a bow for fun. Otherwise, I'm still out.

CA

Ibex,

I'm begining to like it! As a hobbiest I'm just about to build my first laminated recurve and once I get the process down, would love to send you a low effort/cheapy bow that you can keep (I'll make the riser out of a hunk of oak or something, with a quick coat of drippy finish) and see how she compares. Probably not for the first round, but for next time.

I get the dry fire test. Makes sense. Fastest bow we can build that could actually be used regularly. I get it!

I applaud your motivation and to organize such an event!

Thanks!

For those of you not interested in speed, WE ALL KNOW THAT SPEED IS NOT THE END ALL OF BOW PERFORMANCE! This is JUST FOR FUN! :)

half,

I didn't know that Nigerian govn. also does bow speed testing! Why I just sent them my credit card number to free up some money in a 'special account' that can only be withdrawn by $1,500 of an American's money...

I'll watch this post.

CR

ttt

Steve, I have a good put up or shut up idea, if your bow doesnt shoot with in 10fps of what the builder claims his bow goes to a charity auction and we pot it here on leatherwall. Steve

Bill Matlock(high performance rd longbows) had a bow with several hundred registered dry fires. I agree with the dry fire theory, a good bow should handle them w/out comming apart.

Yes, but that next dry fire may be it's last.

I will be there and will have a few more "witnesses" in tow. I will enjoy seeing Cody wip all you metal handle lovin', bow buildin' wannabes, from the wrong side of the mountain. I thought you guys were banned from here anyway!

John

For those of you who just don't get it...this is not a bikini contest it's more like the standardized tests you didn't do so well on back in high school.

DoubleBB (Mike) dry fires his bow by accident fairly often. hehe

Usually nothing obvious happens, but after X number, several of his risers have cracked.

I have stated my position above.

BBP

I have an idea, how about if a bowyer chooses not to have his bow dryfired it just isnt dry fired and that is noted, might not mean anything but it will be noted cause it might mean something LOL. Steve

Ibex,

Who knows? Maybe some competion will motivate some to try new ideas and even develop faster bows. Push that envelope!!!

CR

I think Susquehanna is making fun of me and my DAS bow I was shooting at our 3d leagues last week. I love this new metal risered beauty but I still love to make and shoot my own bows too. Cody and me on on for sure for bows and we're ok with the winner gets the bows but if thats going to limit some bows coming in I'm open to suggestions. It's funny how some of the guys that always post pictures of their latest bow that shoots 200+ fps are staying away from this thread. Mike

mikecc- don't think i am one of the ones trying to stay away on purpose..... i have been doing bids all weekend for my landscape company and have not been able to get on this site since friday night(i'm writing this from my shop computer..... work sucks! LOL). i sent you a PM.

well if your just going to test for speed i quess that im out, i thought you were going to do a overall bow test as stated in some of the treads above, i know my bows are not the fastest out there and donnt really care, but to take in all the accounts of a good preforming bow is what i thought that this bow test started out as. There is nothing wrong with getting a half dozen people or so and rate all the quaities of a bow not just the speed. If you cannt trust them to be honest than the speed thing is doomed before its started. Besides that everyone is worried about lossing there best bow. Every bow i build is the best bow i can so what is the problem with losing on,donate them to a charity when your done, take it off you taxes.

Mike, double bb bows

I kind of agree with Doublebb, be nice to see who is making good performers, if someone is 2 or 3 fps out front thats really no big deal, it would be nice to be a winner, but also nice just to see some good performing bows show up where the guy could get his bow back. I am curious how many bows are shooting over 190 fps. Steve

steve if you guys are judging anything other than just speed, that means i will have to build a fully finished "purdy" bow. i certainly want it back and don't want it dryfired considering the amount of time i will have into it.

I think for this first test let's focus on performance. Next time around we'll have a little more time and can do a more complete test: fastest, quietest, least handshock etc... Doublebb would'nt you be interested just to see how your handmade bow shoots compared to everyone else? I know mine isn't going to be the fastest first time around but I'll know where I stand and what to work on for the next go round. Mike

mike- i think it would be fun if any of you guys had an ACS CX to throw in the test just for fun, since it is the bow by which all other performance bows are measured.

Steve, I ditto that sentiment, seems like the faster they shoot the better manners they have, and vice versa. They put the energy where it otta be in the arrow. Steve

Steve (Badger) I agree.

My next performance bow will have carbon on it. At 28" AMO & 9gpp & machine shot, it should shoot about 200fps. or it may just break.

I have something in the works that might not be accepted as a trad. bow, but should blow your socks off. (5 oz. 60# limbs).

BBP

BBP- sounds like we may have something similar in the works. i have a machine shop working on making the tool i need to build a new limb. if they can build what i want, i may really need ibex's expertise in carbon to build the prototype limb. the material i will be using in the core is lighter than anything currently being used that i know of.

I feel working out the details of pulling a contest or workshop like this off are small compared to the huge benefits and valuable research that takes place when a bunch of likeminded guys get togther to solve a problem. Just from the discussion that has taken place in recent threads it is obvious there will be several styles and tecniques being submitted that are worth of taking some good notes on. I see comparisons with my wood bows all the way through this, S-glass might compare to sinew, e glass might compare to a self bow and carbon backs would be our version of bamboo backed osage or ipe. The more elastic the backs the more reflex is used, the more tension strong leans toward lowering mass and less reflex. How much is the magic number is yet to be seen. Steve

I'm in but only without the DRYFIRE test.

I'd send one, but I will want it back...and, I am not EVEN claiming speed. Heck, you guys have heard my speed claims..I"m still brainstorming.

However, now BBP and Gino really got my mind spinning!! Money...Money...I need more money!

Here's an idea..you guys all send me money, I"ll build prototype bows out of crazy space age materials, and I'll post the speed results?? Who's in?

Ernie

I want to be Ernie's partner! :-)

I'll allow that Bowchef...we'll split it..

I'll go for it,but maybe I miss something.Are there going to be categories,recurve,R/D, straight limb? Frank

Thanks Ibex,sounds good to go,lets do it.

Here's what Steve and myself have come up with: No dry fire unless requested. All bows will be returned unless you specify you want the bow auctioned off for a good cause. An entry fee of $30 to cover shipping and insurance, this will cost about $15-20 per bow and the rest will go to the winner and possibly a bit to Jake for letting me use the equipment and range. The event will still be held on the above date and all bows need to be here a week before so I have time to get them all measured, weighed and an arrow set up for each bow. Please try to keep them between 45-55# if possible. I won't throw one out if it's a little heavier or lighter. Just send me an email if you are really interested and I'll get you my current address and information. Thanks for everyones input on this and it looks like we have close to 10 bows lined up already. [email protected] or give me a call anytime 801-602-3164 (I love to talk bows)

Are some of the bows "not" from their manufacturer? Just curious.

You are going to post all results to public?

Coooooool.

Ernie

We were planning on just testing bows that an individual made and sent in. Don't send in your Black Widow or some production bow please. The whole competition will be on video and made public. Mike

mikecc, I'm in. This is a great! Thanks to you & Ibex.

Give anything left over to Jake. The winner gets our congratulations & constant fawning praise. (until the next testing).

I sure hope I can get some carbon working before then. So how many weeks do we have until we must ship to you?

I'm also working on a space age bow that I don't know if it would qualify.

BBP

Mike, I am fairly local, would you mind if I came and helped out with some of the testing or writing things down whatever, be a lot of fun to see this first hand. I hope to have a bow ready by then. Steve

I'll take all the help I can get Steve. It's a pretty busy pro shop we'll be using so I want to go in organized and get it done right but not be there all day. Bill, we wanted to hold the thing on the 26th of May. Mike

Well, I just checked the calender and the 26th falls on saturday a workday for me, I would be available till 1pm, if you could use some help. Steve

Where in Utah is this??

8-mile south of Provo, Utah Lake region

Utah! I thought you were in Los Angeles, leaves me out. Steve

Bowhunting World magazine published a test of recurve bows in the August 2006 issue. Although they did not test every bowyers creation they did complete a pretty good cross section of the top recurves. The comparison included Hoyt, Martin, Mathews, Bob Lee, Predator, Black Widow, and Bear to name a few. The testing was done with a set and equal criteria by a group of archery industry professionals, not the local cigar club.

The bottom line is that the Predator was by far the fastest tested. I will admit that I am a Predator fan, but only after shooting many to find the best. The test only comfirmed my opinion. The Predator shot a 520 grain arrow a blistering 205 fps from 70 lbs and 28" with fingers. And I will add that the Predator is not only the fastest but one of the smoothest drawing, hit were your looking bows on the planet.

Probably the most important point to make about the test by Bowhunting world is the fact that they tested bows that you can actually find and buy.

........... or you can learn to build your own, walk into the field with the pride of knowing that the tool you are using came from your own two hands, have a greater appreciation of what it takes to build a performance bow (or any bow), and then compare it and learn from what other like minded fellas are doing.....jmo

205fps 7.42gr/lb @28" (probably from a shooting machine)= good/very good speed......but blistering???? guess that all depends on what you are used to.

Mike and Ibex!

You guys rock! This is gonna be a bit of work and I appreciate it! I won't be quite ready this spring, but will 'shoot' for the next round!

I'll be watching those results!

THANKS!

CR

Shapeshifter,I love you man,well said.Ibex I appreciate your hard work to organize this feat.Thanks Frank

Trailboss, One mans junk is another guys gold. Most any well designed bow will shoot a 7 grn per pound arrow at or above 200 fps, so the predator isn't that special. This is my opinion but the 2 Predators I have shot had lousy limb fit to riser and a baseball-ball like feel to the grip. They were also quite noisy. There isn't a bow made that everyone likes. None of the guys that would be interested in this competition care what a bunch of production bows are capable of anyways. It looks like we have close to 10 bows lined up already for this first test, I think it's going to be alot of fun and thats what it's all about. Mike

Amen Mikecc

I am going to go all out and enter an all wood bow, I have never hit over 185 yet but maybe the added pressure will help a bit. Steve

Badger that would speak volumes in my book if you built/entered an all wood bow.

Really says alot to be able to read wood and use it in a way to get that kind of performance. I think it would also be an eye opener to many to see an all wood put out those kind of numbers. Good luck Ill be rutting for ya!

I need to buy a chronograph...

Thanks Apex, I am going to use my custom version of my projected mass theory. Gives me a good excuse to take my time and do it right, Steve

Apex, This is a family oriented site, I don't think a guy should be "rutting" for another guy on here. Mike

Thanks Mike you saved my behind LOL.

I know one thing Steve (Badger) I would be MORE than happy to pay shipping round trip just to get to shoot one of your bows for a couple weeks. I've never had any experience with a high quality all wood bow. My budddy and I make some "dogs"...but haven't gotten into it enough to try and make a performer...

Will be great to see how they do against the big glassys...

Shot a CX last night...good luck to all going against it!!

Ernie

HAHAHA sorry Badger, was late and Im not a good speller, atleast you all got a good laugh ...at my expense.

Apex, I knew what you meant, it was funny!! Hornseeker, I will be happy if I just make a respectable showing. Most of my bow would win an ugly bow contest, never really got into finishes, This should be fun anyway, Steve

BTW Mike I like your bow and don't tell Riley but I like his as well. Looking forward to this. I think we should have Jake put one of his GPs though the paces just to see where it lines up! While we're at it how 'bout your new bow... John

that bowhunting world test was a joke, they shot the same arrow out of bows ranging over #20 in draw weight. they used a big ole' rubber washer and drew the arrows bop, which means the drawlengths varied as much as the thickness of the riser vs. the deepest part of the grip. i'm sure the predator is fast, and it's been the quickest blacky's shot so far if i'm not mistaken but i wouldn't put any stock in those tests.

I too am willing to test as many bows as can be shipped to me. I prefer something in the 60# range . Exotic woods a must.

I'm gonna go make that boo-backed mulberry I've been thinking of and SMOKE you guys off the page!

JK.

Sorry, my misunderstanding of the purpose of the review. I thought it was to be informative for purchaseable bows.

Yep, simple misunderstanding. This is just "some guys" testing their bows to see who has the fastest...and possibly share "why" its the fastest...so we can all build Fast ones!!

There will be purchaseable bows there, but some will be hobby bowyers...the thing is, if it works out like we think, the info will bleed over to other bowyers and then the top performance will be available to "purchase"...as of now, we've got maybe 10 outta hundreds of bowyers that are showing the "top" numbers... Lotsa secrets..

Ernie

Making a shooting machine is a lot easier than making the fastest bow. Any bowyer can make a shooting machine and do the test themself...and post the results on video. Why give the bow up?

"Nigerian bank/bow scam" may just have a ring to hit IMO.

Well, I have my wood bow entry all ready, should give you synthetic boys a good run for your money. Very tempted to just save it for the flight shoots in september instead of risking it. No dry fires on this fragile baby for sure. Steve

i think the first post would be a good test. it shows the fastest bow, with durability. its not a test about smoothness,prettys or whether or not it will kill (thats up to the operator). i say go for it. the guys with quality made bows will not worry about the dry fire, or chronograph, and it will seperate the good from the not as good.

I'd sure like to see it STeve...either of you got pics to put up?

Can we (glass/carbon builders) learn something from Badger that will get us some more speed. It seems very ridiculous that some wood and glue could turn numbers anywhere near what carbon and epoxy and such will....

Ernie

Ernie, not sure a reliable wood bow can, this bow is a tad underbuilt.

Well...some of them can, like yours in the low 180s are as good as MANY of the glass and carbons...mine included if you want to throw out a few fps...

Pics Steve...and just a reminder..I want to shoot one!

Ernie

Steve, I have mine ready also, I just need to draw it out to 28", If I have them shoot mine at 26 1/4 from the belly it will be like 27 1/4, I might hit 190 there, I want mine to survive for the flight shoots if possible. Steve

Still hope to get a carbon bow ready. BBP

Steve, no real comparison in reality, my bow is only designed to last a few shots if I am lucky. Steve

I will send in a bow. (no dry fires)

Send me shipping address in a PM.

BBP

Make sure you take a few pics of the whole shabang. Would like to see it.

I dont build bows. But it sounds like a few guys want to get together and have a blast seeing who can build the fastest bow.

Sounds like no one likes the dry fire or not getting there bow back so how about charge a entry fee winner gets half and host gets half for expences with putting on the show.

A differant host each time.

No dry fires and everyone gets there bow back.

Steve, Mikecc, & Badger

Both bows are in the ABS 4" shipping pipe & being sent USPS to Ibex today.

I wouldn't be supprised if my S-Glass bow isn't faster than my carbon bow.

Have Badger show you how to string the needle tipped bow.

BBP

Frank, I think they dropped that now, I think the original intent was that the winner would have a bunch of bows he could sell and the tester would have a nice prize in the fastest bow for all his testing. Now I think all bows are going back home and only bragging rights or a witnessed report are pending, also just some good science for everyone to compare notes on. Steve

I really was going to at least send a bow down, since I have never chrono'ed any of mine, but I haven't even finished a boo backed boofloo on the build-along yet.

I did learn something top secret about bamboo the other day, though, so making an all natural fast bow someday just got easier... (I think.)

SECRET!!! Hey whats this secret stuff?? What will it take to get you to talk?? Steve

I'll have something or two in the mail in a day or two...you ought to get them in plenty time...

Ernie

This sounds great! I'm glad you guys decided to send in some bows. I have 2 ready myself. Here's my little 58" 50# hybrid. Mike [IMG]http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/mikebirdcc/newbow3.jpg[/IMG]

Let me try that again.

Mike, that's a stealthy looking bow. It just looks fast. Jim

Come On Guys! send in those fast bows.

We need some competition.

PM Ibex for the mailing address.

BBP

This is all for fun. If you've made a bow and want to see what it can do, send a bow in. You're only out $30 to cover shipping. Mike

I just like to see how mine will do next to your guys... I've been hearing how blazing the ibex and the BBP models have been now for several years! It'll be fun to see if I"m within 20 fps!!!

Ernie

I'll have to make one for the next test. I don't have a single bow in my shop to even shoot for myself right now. Jim

We're gonna try to do this every 6 months. Ernie maybe you and me can just compete with each other in the under 40 young buck class. Mike

I am gonna be pissed off at myself if I break my this years flight bow LOL. Steve

Steve you can just make another in a few minuites. ;) As many bows as you build a new one is just a few minuites away. lol

When are we going to see some results of this testing? I am interested in what you guys have come up with.

Speed wil just make you miss faster,shot placement,shot placement,shot placement!

Good Luck.

Love this stuff! A little competition can only help us who do this make better bows,be it faster, more quiet, accurate or reliable. Im brand new to this bow building stuff & think I could learn a ton quickly.

Just one thing, those of us who haven't got carbon bows mastered or even built yet are at a bit of a disadvantage. Is it possible to split into two categories? Carbon or Glass. Whether or not, count me in on the next compitition.

Ken

Ken, I believe that glass might be able to compete with carbon. It would really be worthwhile posting results of all glass bows in my opinion. I think glass might be more tolerant of cetain types of abuse than carbon and still be a top of the line bow even if it were a few fps slower.

My bows pretty much a glass bow. I just have one carbon lam under the veneer and glass. I know it will probably be 10 fps slower than the others but I still want to take part and see how something I designed and built will do. I've only been making bows for a little over a year and it takes a while to figure everything out.

Ken, old Badger is going to enter an all wood bow thats going to be right up there with the carbons!! Glass BETTER be able to compete! :0)

I'm sending glass and carbon, just for my own curiousity to see how they compare in "someone elses" hands..

Better get them boxed up,

Ernie

Oh, and if you dont see my results posted, you'll know they ended up dead last..so i guess I'll have to post the results either way :0(

E

Ernie,-All wood competeing with carbon? that would be awesome! Hats off to Badger if that happens. I always root for the underdog.

Steve,- wont have time to put one together for myself this round.( too busy making them for others)but definately round 2!

Ken

He's playing modest...but I think he wont be far behind the fast guys...and wont be far AHEAD of my glass and carbon bows! :0)

Badger, are you going to be there with Ibex and Mike?

I am gonna be there, I just hope my bow don't break!. I am building another all maple bow right now I want to try something new on, this one has more mass but is depending on a very fresh wood theory I have been working on. I plan to shoot this one to but don't plan on it competing with the carbon bows. Steve

Steve (badger) I'm glad that you will be there.

How many bows do you make in the average week?

I'm counting on you to show the other guys how to string my Back Nocked bow.

As you know, It's important that the belly side V of the loops are centered on the limbs.

They both have new strings & may take some time to stretch down to 6.5" BH

I imagine that Steve (Ibex) recurve tips are about 6X wider than my S-Glass bow with the skinny tips.

BBP

Cool!

As long as it gives a consistant 28" AMO draw.

It looks like the release should be put on the string closer to the arrow.

Badger don't like his bows at full draw for more than about 1/10 of a second.

What do you have to get accurate draw weights?

Thanks again for setting this up.

BBP

1.5" That's puzzling to me. Don't seem like where the pressure of a split finger hold would be centered at?

I wonder why your machine likes that big of a distance?

BBP

Put my bows on there and let me know what they are doing now...I cant wait....

Hello Ibex, George still hasn't come through with the credit. I'm starting to get pissed.

When what part of the string is drawn 26.25" ?

Looks like with that 1.5" gap that the arrow is not drawn as far as the release. This is a bigger problem with shorter bows that have a more severe string angle.

BBP

ttt

Testing is this weekend, I can hardly wait. BBP

Me too... sure wish I had a bow to send. I hope to make one for the next test. I'm building a new form right now. Jim

Bill, I can't wait to try thses bows out either, Steve says your little 45# looks like it will be scary fast! Steve

Thanks for all the work guys.

How's about some names to go with faces, the only guy I recognize is the Badger.

I'm very pleased.

I thought the S-Glass bow, with its skinny more static tips, is a faster design than my carbon bow that has wider tips, but it was slower by 4.6 FPS

The Auto-Claved Uni-Carbon is just faster stuff. Thanks Ibex! for turning me on to it.

Now if I could just get the belly side glue to hold up to the stress that the carbon creates, & make my carbon bow tips as skinny as the S-Glass tips???

Ibex, perhaps I could I could glue-up most of the bow 1st with the longer pot life Smooth-On & then do just the belly side lam to carbon with the short pot life stronger stuff that you use?

I'm looking forward to seeing my carbon bows speed at 9gpp & 30" AMO. It should be close to 210 FPS

BTW, the ACS CX which holds the record, was tested with a lighter string, an unwaxed 10 strand 8125.

BBP

Bill, Did you see the pic of your bow shooting 223 fps at 28" and 10 grains a pound? I had to wind her up pretty good but still the highest I have ever gotten from any bow with 10 grains a pound. Steve

Steve, Howdy. Way to go with a straight limbed all wood bow!

I didn't see that 223. How in the hell can that be done?

Must be a very active push/pull method.

BBP

Bill, I was giving kind of a demonstration on how releases can affect performance so much, I had your bow in my hnad and I commented " now watch this one, I am gonna really wind up on it"' I was shocked myself when I saw it. I could get 208 and 210 out of your bow with out much effort at all. Pushing the bow hand forward like a jab at the moment of release will kick it up pretty good, takes a little practice but not that difficult. The arrow I had was only 29" long and there was still a full 1" sticking out the front when i let go. Steve

So what are the results of the testing?

Scroll up 6 posts.

Thanks Bill.Great numbers on all those bows!You fellows turned out some fast ones.

Next time if time allows I hope we can shoot the bows with a variety of different weight arrows. Mayber from 8 grains to 12 grains. Those are pretty interesting I think. Steve

Steve asked me if he could post my numbers, but I've been gone all weekend laying waste to carp...anyhow, he is welcome to. Being a new bowyer, I was a little nervous..and though I did get last (dagnabit) they shot quick...and, neither were my best performing bows..

I believe they were 180 and 182...

Nice job guys...cool stuff. I'd like to host the event next winter some time...

Ernie

Hey Badger, who is who in the pics???? BBP

I better let steve do the introductions, steve is the tall guy, mike is the youngest guy.

Sweet...thanks for the pics, Steve! Way to go, Bill. Can't wait to see what one of your double carbons will do.

Did you do anything different than the usual to the 193 fps bow?

The camo bow is carbon backed...my first try at carbon..

The other is clear glass...elm limbs I believe.. I'm happy with that 10 gpp number...I actually get those numbers with 9gpp...

I wanted to compliment Steve on that shooting machine he built on short notice, very stable, simple, and easy to use. I don't think it so much as wobbled one time. His triggering set up was also simple but ingenius. Steve

Swanny, the 193.3 FPS bow is a double carbon.

Auto-Claved Uni-Carbon, .030" on back & belly.

Back side lam is brown actionboo parallel .080" & belly side lam is hickory .100" parallel. 30" fadeout lam of hickory. Total limb thickness of .240" from fadeout lam to tips.

Pretty much my normal bow 42#, but longer 68" ntn & wider tips (.375') than my S-Glass bows, to try & keep the carbon on the belly from busting the Smooth-On.

I guess the tall blond guy is Ibex, & the brown haired guy is MikeCC ?

Trying to figure out what name goes with what face is like pulling teeth.

BBP

I'm the pretty one. hehe

Congrats BBP!

I enjoyed looking at the pics. I recognized a few of the bows on the table, but it would sure be nice to see a pic of each one on this thread. These are some good bows for sure. Too bad I didn't have one to send. I hope to send one next time. Jim

Here's my single carbon...

Here's the glass one...just small detailed website pics...sorry..

http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/spdbows.htm

This link will make it easier to pull up each picture. Saves having to cut and paste each url.

congrats on the results guys! looks like the testing was a lot of fun.

BBP- that is a screamer you have there! glad to see that you got the carbon to work with your design.

Badger- that is truly amazing that your all wood bow will hang with the carbon bows....... i am blown away! i have been wanting to try my hand at building a few selfbows and/or all wood lam bows...... now i know who's brain to pick when i get ready to build one :^)

ibex or badger- was that one of brandon stahls rose oak recurves i saw laying on the table??? the veneers sure looked like his style.

Congrats James and way to represent Steve.

Question for Steve, you are adding speed by pushing the bowe forward at release? Adding as much aas 30fps with this method? How far forward are you pushing the bow do you think? 6" or not that much? And how do you know you aren't overdrawing the bow a bit?

Lennie, When I do that method I always mention it is strictly for fun and not scientific, About 15 fps is most typical. The forward push is easy to time because it takes place at the moment of releasing the string, bending the arm before hand is like pulling against a spring, slight overdrawing with that method is possible but I also do it with broadheads that cannot be drawn into the bow. I would guess about 3" is the most movement I get before arrow leaves bow, really not sure.

Kind of like bumping a pinball machine when the ball hits the paddle... just as long as it doesn't tilt! Jim

Me and the family just got back from California last night. The wife and kids had a great time at Disneyland. The highlight of the trip for me was hanging out with Ibex and badger. It was alot of fun seeing the different bows and getting to shoot some all wood bows. I think everyone did great and I was totally happy with the results, it was a fair test. I figured my bow would be in the mid 180s and that's where it was. I have a few ideas for next time and woud like to get my bow shooting 190. Let's get another shoot planned for October and try to get some more bows from all you Leatherwallers.

Fantastic thread, great project. BBP, will your double carbon bows be part of your commercial line-up, or are they still too potentially explosive? How about an S glass belly & carbon back? (or did I miss that one?) I am actually interested in getting a blank, perhaps later this year.

The bow hand push release was used by the Apaches and other pinch-draw shooters. It is also used by thumb draw shooters; I am learnng this method- takes some sorting out & getting used to.

Thanks guys.

No carbon bows for sale yet, still too explosive.

Badger is talking about wanting to take a 49# double carbon to the flight championships & set a new 550 gn. broadhead record with it.

I haven't tried a carbon back & S-Glass belly. I'm sure the belly would stay glued & bow would be a little (2-5 FPS) slower.

Ibex has turned me onto a new glue that may help me keep the belly carbon on?

BBP

I just wanted to sorta proudly, sorta embarrassingly, say that this weekend I dry fired my bow 4 times while shooting at carp with a wet glove and a loose nock fit!! It was my double carbon, and it seemed to hold up great! ..and that was after using it multiple times as a walking stick and for trying to reach lost arrows 4 or 5 feet under water!

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