| From: Clint in MO
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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Maurice Thompson wrote in his book "Witchery of Archery" that it was not uncommon for a 50# snakewood bow to cast an arrow as well as a 70# bow made of a lesser wood. Do any of you self-bowyers know the scoop on snakewood? Clint B.
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| From: DRT
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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A heavy tropical wood from South America.
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| From: pablo /MA
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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Really dense tropical wood. Several "custom" (whattever that means :o) bow makers offer it as riser or lam material.
-pbh
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| From: Clint in MO
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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It must be good stuff. Apparently Mr. Thompson considered all native bow woods, including Osage, to be in the "lesser bow wood" category. However, I believe he just shot those English-style longbows. Clint B.
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| From: Whitey
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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They sell it by the pound. Looks like petrified wood. They have some atr a local hardwoods store. enough for a TD riser would be $600. I would bet it is a different wood as I can see no way to make bow out of it. A riser yes.
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| From: Ted Fry
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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The Snake wood that Thompson wrote about was a rare type of mohogany that looks like Osage, Howard Hill worked alot with it back in the 20s as well.Nothing like the Snake wood most of us are familiar with now. Ted
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| From: Liquid Amber
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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The wood Thompson referred to as snakewood is Piratinera guianensis. It is a tropical wood that was used frequently for bows during the late 1800's by English bowyers.
The Thompsons weren't bowyers, only dabbling with that aspect of archery during their childhood and immediately after the Civil War. The snakewood bows mentioned were all imported.
The wood Hill used and referred to as "snakewood" or "Florida Snakewood" is, I believe, the genus Swietenia, one of the American mahoganys, Hill's source being an extremely isolated population in Florida. Bruce Hamlin and Murray Gaskins have researched it and one or both have a pretty good knowledge of the wood in question.
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| From: AkBillyBow
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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AkBillyBow's Supporting Link
Here is a small pic of Snakewood. It is very heavy and dense...it usually sells for around $15/ lb.
>>>=====> AkBillyBow <=====<<<
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| From: Ted Fry
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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That's not the kinda Snakewood Thompson spoke of billbow, but yes that is the wood that most of us know as snakewood.Liquid Amber hit the nail on the head, I have a bow made by Howard Hill that is the Snakewood that grew in the Florida swamps and is as Liquid said a mohogany, however with its years of patina looks like old Osage.
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| From: Liquid Amber
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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Ok, what kind of snakewood did Thompson speak of, if it isn't what billybow showed? It sure looks like it could be Piratinera guianensis. The common name comes from the snakelike appearance of the wood. And, snakewood bows were quite common and easily obtained, along with other types of hardwoods, yew and lemonwood from England. The following passage is from a lengthy article which mentions both self and backed snakewood bows. The backed were a little more costly.
"The best snakewood bow for gentlemen is six feet six inches long, capacity from 40 to 60 pounds; the strings are Flemish; the price is $8.00. These are self bows, made of one piece of wood." From "The Sport of Archery", an August 1867 article in which the author is mentioning a lot of imported English longbows and arrows he had just seen in New York.
There is nothing in Thompson's writings that implies he made bows of anything other than domestic woods during his youth and immediately after the Civil War. If anyone has something that suggest differently, I'd sure like to be afforded the reference, title, edition and page number.
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| From: Liquid Amber
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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"Mulberry, sassafras, bois d’arc, southern cedar, black locust, black walnut and slippery elm, are valuable woods, in the order named, for making bows; but the foreign weapons manufactured of lemonwood, lancewood, yew, and snakewood are far superior to any we can make in the United States of any of our native trees."
"The Witchery of Archery", 1st Edition, 1878, page 231.
Piratinea guianasis, if I've spelled it correctly this time, is the "snakewood" that Thompson mentions in his writings and his early snakewood bows were imported, but by 1879, American bowyers have begun manufacturing bows comparable to the best English and Thompson raved over the snakewood bows of Horseman:
"The best bows I have ever seen are now being made by Mr. E. I. Horseman, of New York. A month ago I would not have believed it possible for us to get an American bow which would at all compare with the better class of English work, but having given Horsman’s make a thorough test, I am free to say, his lemon and lance wood bows are the finest specimens of such bows I have yet seen. His rose-wood bows are simply splendid; but the snakewood! Now here comes the rub! How shall I tell just what I think of them? I don’t want to say one word which I shall ever have cause to modify; and I shall only say in the simplest and most direct language, that they are the finest specimens of woodwork I have ever seen. I have searched closely for a defect, but none is to be found. "The bows are perfect. They are utterly without a blemish from tip to tip. I have owned several fine snakewoods, but never so perfect a bow before. Need I say they shoot as well as they look?
"My 48 pound snakewood of Horseman’s make is the quickest bow I have ever seen. It sends an arrow with a flatter trajectory than my old 70 pound lance and hickory. I could not have believed it if I had not seen it."
"How to Train in Archery", 1st Edition, 1879, Maurice and Will H. Thompson, page 50.
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| From: Ted Fry
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| Date: 04-Apr-01 |
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Maybe the stuff I have seen is just darker than the snakewood I have seen recently , it doesnt have the scale pattern , I dont know if its a different wood however I have some literature in which Howard Hill spoke of Snakewood back when he was in Florida that I was told was a different type of wood than the Snakewood we use today . As I said I have a bow that was made in the 20s with Howard and Don Carson ( who worked with Howard 1925-1935) and one of the bows in the book Don wrote,(never published)is said to be the bow , and its supposed to be snakewood , it doesnt look much different than osage , just a bit of a different grain.I figure since Thompsons spent a bit of time in Fl. they must of snagged a bit of this stuff. Liquid Amber obviously knows his stuff when it comes to this wood. I would take a picture and post of this bow to help solve the question however I feel it would not show up well as the wood is very dark now , its a beautiful english style with horn tips and has the usuall tinch of string follow . I have a few pictures of Howard using just such a bow in the 20s that I will see if Pat would like to use for a little bit of history on the early years of Howard Hill as most of the book I have and photos are of The shop he had in Fl. and the story is like Howard and Don tradding places with the Thompsons.I am working on editing the manuscript and plan to release the book sometime this next year. Wait till you see some of the photos.
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| From: Liquid Amber
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| Date: 05-Apr-01 |
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I'm not sure why we get confused with this snakewood identity. I guess it's the common denominator of "snakewood" and "Florida", but we need to understand that there is 'no' connection between Thompson/snakewood and Hill/snakewood.
Ted, you might want to contact Bruce Hamlin down Florida way, he has done a great deal of work on this subject. You are correct, the wood Hill used doesn't resemble the exotic variety most associate with old English longbows. I believe that Gene Wensel might have one of Hill's snakewood bows as well.
I look forward to your book, new stuff is always exciting.
The only references to "Florida snakwood" that I have, all are from Howard Hill material. The following might be of interest:
"I reached for my 110-pound hunting bow. It was 5 feet 10 inches long, English style, and made of Florida Snakewood. I knew it was a good one because I had made it myself and had hunted with it plenty of times. It had a wonderful cast." From the Dec 1934 issue of Field and Stream, "A Bear Charges" by Howard Hill.
"A few hours earlier I had thought I could easily kill any animal on the North American continent with my 110-pound split-bamboo bow and my 700 graing broadhead arrows;" From the chapter "Big Game in Wyoming" from "Hunting the Hard Way."
This is the same hunt, compiled from Hill's earlier article...note the different bows. Interesting.
Most of Hill's material in "Hunting the Hard Way" was published in periodicals previously.
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| From: Cooter
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| Date: 05-Apr-01 |
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And I thought Snakewood were the python like staves that Rusty likes to wrestle with. I guess you learn some thing new every day.
Cooter
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From: Murray
Date: 05-Apr-01
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
Bruce Hamlin and I have worked on resolving this over the period of a couple of years now. I have seen up close pictures of a bow made from what is called Snakewood and feel that it is Swietinia macrophylla. Bruce has had problems getting a bow to hold together from the samples he has obtained but I think it's because what he has used is sawn lumber, not optimal in growth ring orientation. The wood can be sort of yellowish to brownish in color. I grew up surrounded by it, both sided of the road bordering the tract where I lived on was lined with it in fact. I do not know if it is all still standing, 35 years ago when my friends were learning to drive several of them managed to kill themselves on some of these trees lining Old Cutler Road. I never saw where the cars did more than knock a little bark off them, do not remember ever seeing one of the trees die as a result of impact or ever being turned over or much damaged by Hurricanes. There are very, very tough environmental regulations now in that area regarding native tree cutting and getting split material will be difficult. Obtaining sawn lumber is not such a task. The historical aspect of this is interesting to me, I know where the material is but dealing with folks who can obtain sssuitable material has been the weak link in the project. Take care, Murray
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From: Larry Burford
Date: 05-Apr-01
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
Very interesting thread!
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| From: Liquid Amber
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| Date: 21-May-01 |
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"The arrows with which Hill fishes are made of Florida snakewood, a tough and heavy hardwood of much greater penetration power than arrows made of birch, yellow pine, cedar or similar materials. The arrows are thirty inches long, weigh 600 grains apiece and are provided with special points made of turned-down brass with a two-inch point of drill rod, one-sixteeth of an inch in diameter."
"Hill has an unofficial record of 409 yards for long- flight shooting, which is much fartehr than the best of the ancient archers ever shot. His official record, made in a meet sanctioned by the National Archery association, is 391 2/3 yards. In setting these records, Mr. Hill used a Florida snakewood bow with a pull of 175 pounds, the mightiest bow ever used by either white man or savage. Florida snakewood trees grow along the coral-rock keys bordering the Atlantic. This wood is even tougher than yew, just as fast, elastic and resilient, is not as susceptible to heat and cold an has less vibration, or harshness, on the recoil."
The mystery goes on. Passages from a 1930 article I just picked up, author unknown. One thing we do know is that he didn't set his flight record with a Florida snakewood bow; that bow was osage and the stave was acquired from E.F. Pope and is well documented by Elmer and Pope.
Interesting, is that twice I've found a reference to Florida snakewood bows and both times, there have been contridiction.
This article shows other inaccuracies as well, noting, "Hill has made all his archery tackle during the last 25 years." According to that, he would have started about five years of age. The article did include photos of a young Hill that I'd not seen before.
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| From: Liquid Amber
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| Date: 11-Oct-02 |
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I've located another reference to "Florida snakewood" from the July 1937 "American Bowman Review" I just received. Says it is Florida red stopper or Eugenia rhombrea. Supposedly endangered at the moment and restricted to the Florida Keys. What do ya' think Murray?
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| From: 2dogs
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| Date: 12-Oct-02 |
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I saw a bow last weekend at a 3D made of snakewood.Looked like the picture AKBillyBow posted. The bow was made recently by Mike Fedora Sr. It's his reflex/deflex longbow known as the Excellerator.
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From: Bruce Hamlin
Date: 12-Oct-02
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
Liquid Amber, Ted & Murray,
As it has been written, I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to find the elusive snakewood that Hill used. The bow that Gene Wensel had, was sold to a person who actually sent it to me for review. As Ted stated, time has changed the color, but it did have some characteristics that led me to believe it was Florida Mahagony. As Murray stated, the Florida Mahagony that I have attempted to use, has resulted in every bow blowing up during this first part of the tillering stage. Ted, I also have some unpublished Hill field notes that were given to me by Jerry Hill. They hail the snakewood as a superior bow, and it even states the hammock where the trees were found. That hammock is gone, but I have early research that tells me what trees were in that particular hammock. Concerning the flight record, the document you have may in fact be the truth. I have information that indicates Howard did shoot a snakewood bow the day before he set what we know as the official record. According to my source, the snakewood bow did out shoot the osage bow, but it was not officially recorded. Concerning the Red Stopper, it could be. I have not tried it or even looked at a piece. Jerry Hill had heard from a fiend of Howards that the wood was stopper, another variety. I tried it and confirmed it was not. Different pattern etc.. The Hill snakewood bow that I observed did have a slight touch of a few light yellowish growth rings in it. You had to have it in the right lighting to see it. Otherwise, it was dark with age. It also was of the English pattern with horn nocks. It originally came from a gentlemen in Miami, who got it from Howard when he lived in the area. If anyone can please quote any specifics conerning where, when are whatever about the tree or hammock, it would help me in locating the true tree. Liquid Amber, the ABR review you note may be the strongest clue I have heard of. I can get Red Stopper, it is legally available. Any help is appreciated. By the way, Red Stopper was in the now gone hammock that Hill wrote about. He actually found the tree right after the real bad 1928 hurricane that killed so many down here. Maybe Jerry Hill will publish these notes of Howard's one day, I cannot as I do not have the rights to them. Howard does rate the Florida Snakewood as far superior to any other bow wood. A lab test on a known specimen may be the only way to solve the mystery. But, the only two speicmens that exist, to my knowledge, is the one that Ted has and the one that Gene did have. Again, any documentation regarding the specifics of the tree would be appreciated. I would like to find it before I move away from South Florida.
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| From: Liquid Amber
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| Date: 12-Oct-02 |
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Hey Bruce - Good to hear from you.
History is many times a connecting bits and pieces of related information instead of clear and concise information. Sometimes a seemingly unrelated piece sends you in a direction or ties it all together. After the comment by W.O. Robinson tying "red stopper wood" to "Florida snakewood", I changed direction and pulled my file on "Florida red stopper". W.O. Robinson was considered an authority on bow woods and much quoted by Elmer. A good bit of information on this wood is found in the old stuff. Elmer devotes nearly a page to it in "Target Archer" and it apparently was well known and used extensively by the Indians in the southern Florida region for many years.
A Mr. Richard Ashby from Miami used it for years prior to Hill and is given credit for discovering its use as bow wood in ELBs and passing it onto Powell and Elmer.
E.B. Powell, born right up the road in Marion, LA was a well known bowyer and hunting archer in the Miami area before Hill and well versed in "red stopper" and the "snakewood" from South America. Powell was considered an authority on bow woods, in particular "snakewood" and Elmer uses his article from the 1931 "Bowman Review" in "Target Archery". Powell was a frequent contributor to "Outdoor Life" and "Hunter-Trapper-Trader" in the 1920's on archery and was written up in an article titled "America's Most Able Archer". I'm not sure why Powell is so little known these days, but he was a considerable influence during the time of Pope and Young; a stout hunting archery, bowyer who easily handled 150# bows for amusement.
My suspicion is that "Forida red stopper" is the wood Hill referred to as "Florida snakewood" and he learned of its use from Ashby or Powell, both being in the Miami area prior to and during Hill's tenure in the area.
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From: Stagmitis
Date: 12-Oct-02
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
I had an Exotic wood merchant tell me that the reason Snakewood is so expensive is that out of thousands of board feet of harvest a miniscule ammount has the highly prized figured pattern we are accustomed to seeing. The rest of the wood is very bland and non descript. I have some Myrtle wood that is so highly figured that every bowyer that I have ever shown it to could not identify it as Myrtle. It looks "nothing" like the Myrtle on my John Schulz Longbow.
Stagmitis
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From: Screech
Date: 12-Oct-02
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
For info on what is commonly called Stopper check out the link below
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/trees/eugsppa.pdf
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From: Bruce Hamlin
Date: 13-Oct-02
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
Liquid Amber,
Thanks so very much. It sounds like you have some very good documentation. There are many varities of Stopper trees down here. You may have just solved a long time mystery. I will get a piece of the Red Stopper and report back on the comparision. Where are you finding all of this wonderful information? Can copies or originals be obtained? Again, thanks for the information.
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From: Bruce Hamlin
Date: 14-Oct-02
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
TTT
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From: Liquid Amber in Maurice Thompson country
Date: 14-Oct-02
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
Hey Bruce - Years ago, I began compiling files, both electronic and hard by individuals and subjects on archers and archery subjects. I rarely watch TV, so spend time nearly every day researching and compiling information. I began doing this because it was becoming a pain to hunt up information from all my books and magazines each time I wanted to check something out. More importantly, I find the past of great interest. Just kinda' snowballed from there and has become a habit[passion?]. Currently have copied most articles from Ye Slyvan Archer, American Bowman Review and Archery, plus Archery Review, California Bowman Hunter and various other and filed all by author and subject. As well, have hundreds of old archery articles from Forest & Stream, Field & Stream, Outdoor Life, Sports Afield, Hunter Trapper Trader and letters and paper of all sorts, from 1940 back to 1874. Have been through several of Elmer's books and added that information as well. Still have lots to do, but sure makes for easy access on a great deal of archery information. Stuff I've learned from you and Murray and others here on the wall gets saved and filed as well.
Have hundreds of old archers on file and as many topics. Most of the old books, and I have nearly all in my collection, only chronical a portion of the past. The best view of the past is through the old archery periodicals and through articles published in other magazines of that era. I locate these articles from various sources, began with Parker's Compendium and Lake and Wright's bibliography and developed a bibliography of old archery articles from non-archery sources. I've added hundreds not shown it those two bibliographies. Sometimes one article leads to another and I just search various places until I find it or locate someone with a copy and talk them out of a copy. I've met some interesting folks in this endeavor and have been provided material from many here on the wall and all across the country.
One of the advantages of my system is that it places every mention of an archer or subject in one file with the source documented for easy access to the original to check context or whatever. For instance; an old article by Art Young might mention Compton, Pope and others or comments on his equipment or other interesting items. I'll file the comments on Pope and others in their file and the items, such as reference to his broadhead or such under the appropriate item. A huge amount of information is soon generated in easily accessed files. Every bit of information is crossfiled. Sometimes a piece of information doesn't appear to be usefull, but when put with others, a picture begins to appear. And, each bit is documented to source, page #, etc.
It is a relatively easy task to find the answer to most questions on American archery history by just pushing my chair back from one of two computers in my den and pulling down a 4" binder holding the file. I'm not a know-it-all, but one who knows 'where' to go for the answer; and I don't have to go far. :)
Bruce, email me, next week when I get home, your mailing address and I'll send you copies of what I have on this subject. I'm currently out of town for the week wandering around N. Georgia, S. Tenn. and Western N. Carolina visiting many of Maurice Thompson's old haunts with wife and camera. Spent time yesterday with 9 week old young grandson, Donald Patrick Huntington and his two year old sister, Morgan. Life is Good.
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| From: DNM
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| Date: 14-Oct-02 |
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Stagmitis, That is true but there is one more thing to add to that. This wood grows very slow and as a result of it being around a very long time to grow it has seen very harsh and changing weather condition. Because of this cracking and checking is very common. I can get pen blanks very cheap but a figured handle or lamination cost me a fortune. My cost on enough to make a Recurve handle and veneers is about $1000:-)
David Kampka
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| From: Murray
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| Date: 14-Oct-02 |
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Bruce, shoot me an e-mail note if you will. We ran this rabbit very hard a couple of years ago didn't we? I have some info around here that may help put it to bed or at least help you get your hands on it. I had pretty well decided that Florida Snake wood was likely one of the Stoppers, either the White or the Red. The Swietenia may still a sort of viable possibility and occurs in the same area. I got frustrated with old crazy Fred down there and quit the search for a bit.
Thanks, Murray
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From: Stagmitis
Date: 14-Oct-02
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
I hear you David K!
My buddy picked up a georgeous piece Snakewood that is 14x1.5" for $150. Weve been building Hill Style Longbows and after a couple dozen bows he is still reluctant to use this piece until we get our bows "Just Right"!
Stagmitis
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From: Larry Burford
Date: 14-Oct-02
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
L.A. is da man! :>)
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From: Bruce Hamlin
Date: 16-Oct-02
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Pre-L2 Unregistered Post |
Liquid Amber & Murray,
Emails will be coming. I have started the search again, and what I'm finding so far, is that Red Stopper will have a hard time being the right wood. It is a small bushy tree that only grows in the lower Keys, not on the mailand or in hammocks. Now Red-Berry Stopper is a slighlty larger tree that grows on the mainland, in hammocks. I also now have another person who has knowledge that the tree in question is the White Stopper, which is getting to the size tree that Hill mentions in his notes. There is also the Spanish Stopper which is a large tree. I am researching all my notes from Hill, from the study of the known hammock where he cut the trees and from other sources. Stopper(s) were in the hammock he found the wood in. There is a Doctor in Miami who has spent his life study the trees and hammocks in that area. I will contact him for clues on the Stoppers. Now that I think about it, I visited his home one time and he is a Stopper growing fool. He will know the qualities of each one. Let's hope that this is the source, some of the Stoppers are available.
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| From: Liquid Amber
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| Date: 26-Nov-02 |
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From what I can gather, "Eugenia confusa" is the species we might be searching for. It is a tree and can reach heights of 60' and 18 inches in diameter and is native to that area in a somewhat greater range then than now, but no time abundant.
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| From: Snag
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| Date: 06-Apr-08 |
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Norm does a great job with snakewood!
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| From: springbuck
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| Date: 06-Apr-08 |
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Just for fun, because I wondered about both, here is an entry for Lancewood from Wikipedia...
Lancewood (wood) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Lancewood is a tough, elastic and heavy wood obtained from the West Indies and Guiana. It was often used especially for carriage shafts.
It is brought into commerce in the form of taper poles of about 6 meters in length and from 15 to 20 centimers in diameter at the thickest end. The wood is obtained from species of the family Annonaceae. The black lancewood or carisiri of Guiana is of remarkably slender form. The Yellow lancewood tree is found in tolerable abundance throughout Guiana, and used by the Indians for arrow-points, as well as for spars, beams, etc.
This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, a publication now in the public domain.
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| From: springbuck
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| Date: 06-Apr-08 |
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And For Snakewood, from the USFS.CWAR website...
Wood Technology Transfer Fact Sheet
Piratinera guianensis
syn. Brosimum guianensis
Letterwood
Snakewood
Family: Moraceae
Other Common Names: Cacique carey (Panama), Palo de oro (Venezuela), Burokoro, Tibicusi (Guyana), Letterhout (Surinam), Bois d'amourette (French Guiana), Gateado, Muirapenima (Brazil).
Distribution: Guianas, Trinidad, and the Amazon region; a rare to occasional tree.
The Tree: Unbuttressed small tree, up to 80 ft in height with trunk diameters of 12 to 20 in.; bole is cylindrical and clear for 40 to 50 ft.
The Wood:
General Characteristics: Heartwood dark red to reddish brown with irregular radial black markings or with black vertical stripes alone or in conjunction with the speckles; sapwood very thick, yellowish white, line of demarcation often irregular and not very sharp. Luster medium to high; texture fine and uniform; grain straight; odorless and tasteless.
Weight: Basic specific gravity (green volume/ovendry weight) 0.82 to 1.10; air- dry density 63 to 84 pcf.
Mechanical Properties: No strength values available but reported to be a strong hardwood that splits rather easily, heartwood is rather brittle.
Drying and Shrinkage: Should be dried carefully and in small pieces; shrinkage is reported to be rather high.
Working Properties: Works with difficulty because of hardness; turns well and takes a beautiful polish.
Durability: Heartwood very resistant to attack by decay fungi and dry-wood termites.
Preservation: No information available.
Uses: Inlay, turnery, fancy handles for cutlery, violin bows, walking sticks, drum sticks, butts of fishing rods.
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| From: hogtamer
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| Date: 07-Apr-08 |
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LA hasn't mentioned it but he has a set of golf clubs made of Snakewood. I heard he was the only man alive who could hit a golf ball and make it curve 3 directions in 100 yds. Also heard he was bringing those tools to Georgia soon and help with mole control. HOGTICKLER
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