I started a thread a couple weeks ago titled 33# and 330gr. I made up some arrows today that weighed 470gr. The 330gr arrows are GT Warriors.700 with 125gr up front. They fly great and are going 165fps. I considered hunting with these and might still do it. But, I have also been thinking that maybe 325gr is too light for hunting from a 33# bow. I’m sure they will kill a deer but maybe heavier is better in this case for hunting. The 470gr arrows drop hard after about 18 yards but 15 yards and in, the trajectory is acceptable. I can still shoot 3D with these lighter arrows and possibly hunt with these heavy arrows. They do hit harder but they are only going about 142fps. Has anyone else out there shot arrows that were 15grpp or more? It seems that I’m always messing around with my arrow and trying different things.

560gr arrow #40 bow 14gpp is what i use.

Kanati, do you shoot those arrows all the time, for 3D and hunting? Do you have an issue with trajectory? Thanks

I think 142 fps seems fast with 470 gr. arrow. I think if that is accurate you would be fine.

Ray all the time. Dont do 3D. My hunting distance is 15 yds. and thats what i practice at. At times i shoot 20 then i see a very slight drop.

I think you should play with some ballistics calculators and see what the performance differences are in kinetic energy and momentum generated then pick the one you like best. That is the actual performance potential.

What anybody else thinks really doesn't matter.

But most importantly you need to come up with a combination YOU have confidence in.

After trying different bows, different arrows I am finding just about anything works out to 20 yards. A heavy arrow is only going where it was pointed upon release anyway.

Ray -

Except for some change in trajectory, do you really think it's going to make one bit of difference???

Viper out.

Viper, probably not. I had decided to hunt with my lighter arrow and at a 3D shoot last week, my buddy said that my arrows weren’t going in but a couple inches in the target. The lighter arrows are tuned and fly great. I shot pretty good at the shoot. I have some heavy arrows made up if I want to use them. They drop hard after about 15-17 yards. I adjusted to the drop in a few arrows at 15 yards. I doubt I would shoot 3D with them.

fdp, I did run the numbers through a calculator last night. KE doesn’t change much but momentum does. I’ve never been on to like heavy arrows but since I dropped to such a low bow weight, i’ve been concerned about arrow choice for hunting. Actually, both arrows are probably adequate but I’ve never hunted with a bow this light weight so I have no real life personal experience to go byo

Yep--- I've used some very heavy arrows out of 40 ish pound set ups and one time a bow that was pulling around 33# on Whitetail. I've gotten great results with arrows that were @400gr and great results with arrows that were 530gr. Most of my shots are 15 yds and in with an occasional shot just past 20 yds. The only reason I would use the heavier arrows was when I found I hit more precisely with them at hunting ranges (this was just a me thing as both lighter and heavier arrows can and were tuned and accurate, but for whatever reason/ tighter gaps the heavier arrows hit the mark better for me and I was more confident with them and in hunting confidence plays a huge part). I've not shot a deer w a 330gr arrow so I can't offer much there, but a heavier arrow out of your bow at your distances won't hurt a thing if you can put it where you need to. Haven't spent any time looking at charts, just basing the above on putting a lot of arrows through a lot of deer w lighter bows.

My setups are from 38-46#, my arrows always weigh from 520-555 (give or take) so I’m not quite as high GPP as you (12-14 GPP) but I shoot 3d and hunt with the same arrow. 3D shoots are awesome, there will definitely be some longer shots that make my arrows seem like lead balloons but I’m not a score chaser, I go for fellowship and fun and use the shots within my comfort zone for hunting 15ish yards to really practice for bowhunting.

I wouldn’t trouble myself over the penetration in foam. I was out shooting the other day (#52 and about 480Grains) and I don’t have any reservations about hunting with that, but depending on the target, I might get only 2 1/2 or 3 inches of penetration. That tends to happen with field points…

#33 isn’t even legal where I am, but just for my own peace of mind, I think I would be closer to 12 GPP at less than #40. 14 GPP seems like it’s beyond the point of diminishing returns, but then again, I tend to take much longer shots than most.

Remember Foam Targets are designed to stop arrows. Live deer are not! So the amount of penetration on a foam targets is irrelevant. With a Cut on Contact Broadhead that 470gr arrow at 142fps will put a hole in one side of the deer's rib cage and out the other. As long as you have good arrow flight, well tuned. Once that broadhead exits the skin on the off side, no matter how fast or slow it is going, it has done as much damage as it is going to do, inside the deer. One of the guys I know used a 40-42 pound hinged ax handle bow (yeah, a bow made from 2 ax handles and held together with a hinge) years ago that only shot about 140fps at its best. It was the only bow he had at the time. He put the broadhead all the way through the deer's chest (out of a treestand) he shot with it. The amount of penetration he got surprised many of us, Even Him. This was during the time when, if you shot anything "Less Than" 55-60lbs of draw weight (more than that was better), shooting a heavy arrow, many thought you were taking a chance of not getting enough penetration with the arrow (hey, I WAS one of those guys years ago, Howard Hill Syndrome) and that was what WE were lead to believe. Shooting less than that 55-60 pounds, many thought you were a Whimp :') and needed to work on shooting more weight. We kept hearing "You need to shoot the most weight you can." I still fight that Syndrome within myself, even though I now know better. I still haven't found anybody who can "actually answer" the question: How much energy (speed and momentum) does it actually take, for an arrow rotating on its axis, pushing a sharp Cut on Contact broadhead, to completely push that broadhead through a deer? I believe it is a lot less than we think. These lighter and lighter draw weight bow kills we see show up, from people here, proves it. Just put the sharp BROADHEAD through the chest cavity, the deer dies. DANNY

Nothing wrong with “as much as you can handle” — just we have an awful tendency to overestimate what we can handle well….. ;)

Another thing we probably overestimate is how much is necessary….

It’s just April so I have plenty of time to play around with different arrows. I like full length shafts. If I wanted an arrow in the 400gr range then I would need a .700 that was about 7gr per inch. My GT Warriors .700’s are 5.4grper inch and with 125gr up front, they tune almost perfect. The GT .600’s needed 175 gr up front.

33# aint enough man...

Jarhead, I don't know if you're just yanking chain, but.... a few States have a 35lb minimum. Do you really think 2 lb less draw weight is going to make any real difference? Can You actually answer my question? How much energy (speed/momentum) does it actually take, for an arrow spinning on its axis, pushing a sharp Cut on Contact broadhead, to completely push that broadhead through a deer? Just curious? DANNY

That’s actually perfectly good question, Danny… I remember some years ago, I asked for people to provide data on their bow, poundage, arrow, mass, and arrow velocity, if they had it, along with penetration data (and BH design) so that I could compile a database and see how many slugs/FPE were required to provide adequate penetration on animals of the various species… Jim Fetrow was the only one who seemed to think it was an interesting idea, and one or more of our resident Geniuses took me to task for wanting to get scientific, and said that I should go and shoot some animals for myself (as if one person could ever begin to amass the experience of everyone here….).

So… Yeah, that never happened.

Strictly speaking, if you can get penetration to the midline of the animal, plus the length of your broadhead, there should be absolutely nothing that can survive that, provided the shot enters the thoracic cavity. On something like a 100 pound deer, it really shouldn’t take very much at all. So I’m not going to argue that there’s really no meaningful difference between 33 and 35. States going to impose a minimum, it has to be SOMETHING. I suppose one line in the sand is just as good as the next.

The reason I’m shooting 33# is because I have two bad shoulders. I’ve already had 3 surgeries and need two more. I’m hoping that the drop in weight will keep me shooting and hunting for a few more years. I started this thread and another a while back because I have no experience with hunting with a bow this light. I guess that I just want to be sure my setup is adequate for whitetail.

RayJ, I guess you have to ask yourself this question (I am doing this kinda tongue in cheek, sort of) and it is something to think about. So let's say your imposed shooting distance is 15yds. At what point/poundage of draw weight would you be willing to let someone shoot you with a bow, using a tuned arrow with a sharp Cut on Contact broadhead attached, while wearing a mid-weight winter coat and feel safe knowing that arrow won't kill you at 15yds? "OR" you could set up a Meat Target at 15yds. Kinda like what Paul Harrell uses on his YouTube channel. He uses it to shows how well different bullets work shooting into HIS Meat Target. It is a good representation. Pork steaks over pork ribs, oranges for lung tissue (for this test though I think Jello would be a better lung tissue representation. Lung tissue doesn't offer a lot of resistance), followed by another layer of pork ribs then pork steak over that. You can figure out what you want to use over all of that as deer hide. You won't have to use his "New and Improved Fleece Bullet Stop" though :'). That would give you an idea as to how well your arrow with that sharp broadhead will penetrate. A deer's chest cavity left to right at ground level is "Roughly" 12-16 inches across broadside, depending on the deer's size, outside edge to outside edge. So 12-16 inches is all the further your arrow will really need to travel through a deer's chest once it impacts. Roughly half an arrows length or a little more, not counting the broadhead. Again just a way of knowing what to test your setup for, using a sharp broadhead for penetration. Let me know when you do it, I'll come over cook up the ribs and pork steaks and help you eat them when your done testing. If you use Sugar Free Jello I'll help you eat that also :'). DANNY

Symptoms of shoulder impingement, slight but there, occurring with me, so I appreciate these lighter draw weight threads.

I can not find images of my simulated deer target, It is a box of grapefruits, leather on both outsides. I shoot every summer or so, and all I know is the times I resharpened the broadheads, I got a different sound, and much more penetration. As well, past 12 yards, the heavier shafts, more than 430 grains, had more penetration. Up close, 12 yds, 430 out of bow drawn 24 inches to @39, 40 pounds had more penetration. FWIW

I killed this buck w Toelke Pika 33/34# 400gr 5/16" cedar arrow and Grizzly single bevel. Your bow should do the job.

Therifleman, nice deer. Looks like a big bodied deer too. Thanks for sharing that.

I recently read that a 28 lb bow would kill a deer so you will be ok.

Welcome Ray -- I had no way of weighing him, but he was a tough drag for sure. Best of luck this season.

RayJ, he Photo Shopped that deer. It had spots when he shot it, he carried it out of the woods 1 mile Up Hill, over one shoulder and didn't even break a sweat, BEFORE gutting it, AND he is standing 10ft behind the hanging deer in that picture, ROTFLMAO ;'). Seriously though, John KNOWS what he is talking about and is a NO BS guy when it comes to his Bow Hunting! Plus he DOES have a shorter draw to boot. His picture says all you need to know. DANNY

Thanks Danny. I do have a relatively short draw, but it would be a bit shorter if you hadn't given me some advice during one of our osta shoots. I'm stretching out these days to just shy of 27".

You know... it's one of those things... nobody wants to hurt anybody's feelings... and on top of that - somebody always shows up with a story or a pic of deer killed by a really low poundage bow. Will it? Sure... should you? I don't think so. You have such a small margin of error - I personally think you crossed an ethical line.

You know what we don't get- we don't hear too many stories of low poundage failures that "if I'da been shooting a little more bow - it woulda got him on the ground." Now you gott ask - is that because there isn't sucha scenario or is it because somethings are a little embarrassing and best not shared. IDK... I just never hear about people going to vegas and losing their a$$... but those casinos didn't build themselves for free.

I wouldn't hunt a deer... even our little tiny Texas deer with that set up.

It doesn't matter what I think so who cares... you're gonna hunt with that little set up anyway. Good luck - I hope you come back to the Wall and let us know how it worked out... either way.

I'm no expert but heres a few thoughts. As most of us already know all bows are not equal in performance, speed ,cast , power ,efficiency or whatever you want to call it. I have an older Darton 34# recurve and a 30# Samick Sage that I would never consider hunting deer with . I have also shot a couple of of 35# bows that I would not hesitate to hunt any deer with , those bows were just that much more efficient or shall I dare say powerful . The draw cycle of those bows was so much different that I and another archer had to put them on a drawweight scale to prove it to ourselves they were indeed 35# at 28 inches. Those bows were not super curves . One was a hybrid LB the other was a standard recurve. If you can shoot 33# maybe you can work up to 35-37# . If I was determined to hunt with such low poundage I would shoot a razor sharp narrow two blade like the grizzly or magnus stinger on a skinny small diameter arrow tuned to perfection. I would want the arrow around 400-425 grains total weight.

Really Jarhead? So small women, like my wife, and youngsters, who can only pull 35# should not hunt. BS. RayJ, don't listen to those who don't know what they're talking about. Light poundage and a sharp broadhead will do just fine. As we age we do aquire wisdom that we use in our decisions to function and help others. Also Jarhead show me the data on animals lost to "too light" draw weight, compared to wounding loss with what you consider adequate draw weight!

There are a lot of people shooting 50 lbs that probably shouldn't be hunting. And probably a lot shooting compounds, crossbows, rifles, etc. I would rather see someone shooting 30 lbs, who shoots accurately and takes close shots vs some of these others. I ordered my new bow 35@28 and have not hesitation hunting with it. If I happen to wound one and don't recover it, that is just part of hunting. I wounded a couple 40 years ago shooting a 70 lb compound.

Jarhead you also don't hear people saying they made a bad shot on a deer because "THEY WERE" shooting to much draw weight for them, either. Lets be honest here! Bad shots on animals, can happen to "ANYONE" no matter what poundage that is being shot. Arrow deflects off an unseen limb, the bow and arrow combo is poorly tuned, the infamous Buck Fever happening, deer jumps the string, and the shooter just plain screwed up the shot. No matter what draw weight is being being used, is not going to make up for a gut shot, shot in the hind quarter, hit in the foreleg (hit low going for the heart shot), flat out miss, or the hitting the forward edge of the shoulder bone (where it is the thickest), the shoulder bone hit being shot out of a tree stand, or being hit from a quartering angle. From the ground broadside towards the rear of the shoulder blade where it is thinner, you MAY get away with it. YOU may have insecurity issues with using lower poundage bows to hunt with, don't want to believe the results that are presented to you, and think these are the exception than the norm. It is just your denial. Those shooting lower poundage bows know what they are up against, willing to only take higher percentage shots, at shorter ranges. Their choice not yours. With the comments you have made, with the poundage you shoot. You seem to be willing to take a lesser percentage shot thinking shooting a higher poundage will make up for it. That would be your choice. You have your results and they have theirs. WHY should anyone believe your results more than theirs? The only real difference is they have more of a arc trajectory and it takes a little longer for their arrow to get their. So advantage there for you. With the lighter draw weight bows "I" have been around, their bows are quieter. Since you seem to be all knowing of what will work and what won't. Will you answer my question I have posted above Twice. Please tell where you got the information and what testing was done for the results you give. I care about what you think, but want to know the reason why you have come to the conclusions you have. My way of thinking has changed over the years (on this subject) when having been presented with conflicting information compared to what I had been given previously. But I try and keep an open mind and not close my eyes. Urban Legends have a way historically of muddling the waters of Facts, when repeated long enough. Remember, the Earth WAS FLAT at one time. SOME people in this world today, "still" really do think it is Flat. DANNY

I appreciate the input from everyone, whether you agree with my decision to hunt with this bow or not. I have done a lot of searches on several archery forums, seeking info on low weight hunting rigs. My old and worn out shoulders appreciate this lighter bow. I setup for close hunting shots. I think a 470gr arrow going 140fps with a 125gr Simmons Sharks will penetrate a deer’s ribcage with no problem. Bowmania killed a very good buck last year with a 33# bow and heavy arrow. He also killed a moose with a 38# bow and heavy arrow. I have never personally hunted with a bow this light so that’s why I’ve made several posts about arrow weight with lighter bows. I’m just seeking input from others who have used similar setups.

What about guys that lose deer shooting heavy bows? It happens

RayJ, I will be anxious to hear of your success this fall, if a shot opportunity presents itself to you. Big or Small, Bald or Crowned. DANNY

Jarhead, as far as more bow killing better, I have looked for too many deer arrowed by other hunters with 70# plus compounds to know better. The bow is but one piece of the kit. I consider the hunter the most important piece. A well-placed arrow out of a 35# bow will kill much quicker then a poorly placed arrow from a heavy poundage bow. I personally have killed large bucks in S.E. MI with 40# bows drawn 26". I also watched most crash in sight, and one buck was 249#. Modern 35# bows with carbon arrows tipped with proper broadheads, in the hands of a good hunter, can and does kill deer reliably. I do understand you have not seen it done, my advice is prove it for yourself.

Like said a couple times above, I have found deer for people who Blew through deer with compounds, shotguns, and rifles. If people spent as much time on learning when, and how to track a hit animal as they do arguing about proper equipment these conversations would dwindle away..

All I hear is a bunch of men who want to get along. Which - I honestly think is wonderful. Nobody wants to be the dirt bag that says anything that might hurt feelings. I guess I just don't live in that world...

MarkL - not sure how you went from "i'm not endorsing RayJ's set up to" me telling your wife and daughter can't hunt? I don't remember saying that. Rayj came the the Wall specifically for opinions... I offered mine. I don't know Rayj - I'm not mad at him... I bet he's a great guy. I just wouldn't hunt with that set up.

RayJ - Bowmania's moose was killed with an incredibly efficient bow. Are you shooting an ACS? "Bow poundage" alone isn't sufficient for any relevant discussion. That's the talk of neophytes.

Hey - everybody's got their anecdotes - looking to the swan's tail to inform bow poundage/energy is a great way to fail. I buried an arrow in the dirt with a 40# hybrid bigfoot a few years ago... but my shot was perfect. (I'm a 30" draw) A year later I wounded a dandy 8 point with my Saluki Turk (40#). My arrow was not perfect (too far forward)... really bothered me because I became convinced that if shot placement was the same, would have killed that buck if I had used my 47# Bushmen. So... I've got a little scar tissue on the matter. I'm just not good enough to place my arrow perfect every time. I'll add a little horsepower to the equation to tip things my way.

Just my opinion - Chuck - you'll forgive me if I decline your offer to hunt with a 33# bow "just to see if it can be done."

RayJ - best wishes -

If your shot was too far forward even a 100# bow would not have made a difference. I guess I am just not understanding your point.

Jarhead,

"I became convinced the that if the shot placement was the same, would have killed that that buck if I had used mt 47# Bushman." So basically, you are guessing/assuming, BUT you didn't use your 47# Bushman, so you REALLY don't know. You just want to blame something, so you have decided it HAD TO BE the bow's poundage. So you are using the "Only if" scenario, as your bases for being against using a light weight bow, to hunt with. Yep, that holds a lot of water. DANNY

RayJ with your shoulders being bad, do you feel that your draw has shortened? Mine has about 1/2 or so. Its funny, I still lift weights and my bench press max is 235 but shooting a bow is different. I'm sure that shooting a bow for 40 plus years has caused my tendonitis, but it could be the 100,000 basketballs I have shot or the 100,000 pitches I have made in kickball or softball teaching PE. Or maybe the dodgeballs I have thrown. None of which I attempt to do at all anymore. But mid to upper 30's keep me shooting my bow. It is that or not shoot and hunt at all. If I wound a deer so be it, I also cripple a few more pheasants but I am not going to a 10 gauge shooting 3.5 inch shells. My 20 will have to do.

Kansasclipper, I still work out and can do over 200 pushups, which I do regularly. I also work a physical job. But, I have two bad shoulders. I need a reverse replacement on the right side and the left side has a large tear, which seems to have worsened. I’ve been managing pretty well considering the damage. Dropping bow weight was necessary to keep me shooting. I’ve been doing therapy at home and take an NSAID as needed. Surgery is in my future, more than likely, but I’m hoping to avoid it. I’ve already had 3 surgeries and recovery sucks.

I think my setup is adequate for whitetail if I keep my shots close and only take broadside or quartering away shots. I do know that my bow is absolutely quiet with the heavy arrow.

Ray What is your draw length? Toby

I’m amazed at how many cannot tolerate an opposing viewpoint. I personally draw the line at 40#’s. I don’t care what anyone else does, that can be their “personal “ limits. I certainly don’t look to the government (that sells the licenses) for ethical guidance. If you feel confident with your equipment, get after it.

Mine is strictly tendonitis in both shoulders. I had an injection 6 weeks ago which has helped and I also take a prescription anti- inflammatory. I just have to watch what I do. I made 6 wren houses last Sunday, and hurt for 3 days after from using the drill. The week before, it was using the chainsaw that had me in pain. I teach PE and can't pitch, hit a pickle ball, or anything else now.

Well - if 33 is plenty - I guess I'd sure expect to see more hunters be shooting 33#. I know I much prefer an afternoon with my 42# ILF than my 53# hybrid.

Danny - yep... I don't know. We can agree on that. It's a game of chance/probability/uncertainty. There's an infinite number of iterations that could play out on every animal shot. There's also a lot of noise in data. I'm not saying 33# won't kill a deer... apparently 28# will according an above mention... why bother with 33 if that's a challenge... 28's all you need Jay! In fact, I bet if you upped the FOC and kept your shots under 20 you could get away with 25#... and so on and so forth. I think you misunderstand me - I'm not saying it won't... I'm just saying - in my opinion, the margin for error gets so low that I'm no longer willing to accept it. I'm just not that good a hunter/shot.

I know this - you show up to hunt with people that do it for a living - PH/outfitters... you know... situations where another man's livelihood depends on you the hunter/shooter/set-up... they are VERY interested in caliber/poundage/set up. Maybe they are just know-nothings like me.

33 aint enough

X2Jarhead

So what would an acceptable draw weight be just out of curiosity?

Anyone remember when folks advocated leaving the arrow inside the cavity, because of the damage that occurred while it ran off?

So, "I think you misunderstand me - I'm not saying it won't... I'm just saying - in my opinion, the margin of error gets so low that I'm no longer willing to accept it. I'm just not that good a hunter/shot." Okay there you are talking strictly about You as an individual, Again to quote, "I'm just not that good a hunter/shooter". In your previous posts you never claimed that you were just talking about just you, as an individual. Your statements were directed toward ANYONE doing it based on your judgement of yourself and your 1 experience. Your statements were condemning comments towards anyone doing it. Never once in making the claim 33# pounds isn't enough, did you ever add the comment: "for me.". You can make your own personal standards for yourself and there is nothing wrong with that. It is when you push Your standards off on someone else, there is an issue. You mentioned PH/Outfitters. They have to work within the guidelines that are dictated to them in the area they work in. By the way firearms and bullet designs don't kill the same way broadheads do. You can shoot through a good size bag of sand with a broadhead tipped arrow, you can't with a bullet. Point being both behave differently. For a number of years in many areas of Africa many PH's didn't believe Archery equipment (especially Traditional equipment) was ethical. You had to use large bore rifles to kill the animals. Some though, were willing to take the chance to show otherwise and the way the animals were hunted had to change to achieve that goal. HMMM guess what, those that said it was unethical were wrong. Lighter poundage bows is relative to the time frame used. I remember when the "Second Coming of Traditional Archery" began, when that 47# bow you mentioned, was looked at as you do that 33# pound bow (Pre-compound 45# was considered more normal.). Yeah you could kill a deer with it, but it was not really enough. You NEED to be shooting more weight. Even then there was the thought or comment "If only I had used a heavier bow I could have killed that deer.". If you shot 50# you could have done it with 55-60#. If you shot 60#, 70# would have done it. This has been the on going theme in this sport. Everybody pushing their personal limits on everyone else. Shoot the most you can, in RayJ's case it is 33 lbs, it can kill a deer. As you even admitted to. We haven't been talking about 33#'s for African animals, Elk, Bison, or Brown Bear here. Just the lowly whitetail weighing only on the average 90lb (6month old)-200lbs (Adult Buck). Think of that in human size, not really all that big. Their heart and chest size is roughly the same size as a humans (maybe slightly larger), just shaped vertically instead of horizontally like ours. Their shoulder scapula covers part of both sides of the chest, where ours is only on our backs. Plus the scapula should be avoided at all costs no matter what poundage you are shooting (but shit happens when hunting). To many shoulder hits have been talked about to prove that, with Traditional or Compound Equipment. Shooting Lord knows how many different poundages. So don't make belittling/condescending generalization comments (yes they were) about what someone else is using. When you are actually talking about your own personal standards, with using the phrase "for me" a long with it. Because what is acceptable equipment use "for me", is more than likely not yours, or others here or else where. Nor does it have to be. DANNY

It seems to me that there is a huge difference in understanding that a person, due to physical limitations, needs to drop in bow weight to 33# versus recommending that everyone shoot 33#. We're talking about a small number of people that, in order to continue hunting, need to shoot a lower weight that is still within reasonable limits. Clearly he knows his limitations on distance and and is willing to accept that.

Thanks for putting a loop around this discussion, Phil M. Good summary and perspective.

Jarhead "my arrow was not perfect "to far forward", sorry you lost that buck. Every bow hunter I have ever known has had that happen. I realize that does not make it any easier, however, as I said in my post, bow draw weight will never make up for poor arrow placement. You say 7# more draw weight would have killed that buck? Did you have slow motion film of shot impact? I have shot enough deer to know that it happens so quick that it is humanly impossible to see the point of impact. I doubt 7# more bow would have made a difference, I would stop beating myself up over that. Arrow Placement, woodsman ship, angle of the shot, distance, reading deer body language and knowing deer anatomy are far more important than a bows draw weight. A 40# self-bow will easily penetrate a broadside deer with a trade point on a river reed arrow. A modern 35# bow with a good broadhead mounted on a 400 grain carbon arrow will kill every deer arrowed with this set-up as long as the shot placement was proper.

Frank - As I've already pointed out, I'm not sure shrinking the conversation down to "bow poundage" is sufficient.

I keep hearing "as long as shot placement is proper..." I don't have that gift.

A few years ago, I killed a bison with a 47# bow (Bushmen)... 20 yards - based on what I saw - under perfect conditions, I could have gotten away with a lot less bow. That said - I ended up taking a FULL VALUE crosswind shot (every bit of 20 mph)... Turned out I needed every bit of that Bushmen... as my arrow turned upwind really hard. More bow, even though my shot placement was solid, woulda been handy. More energy would have driven that imperfect arrow in even further. As it was - I got lucky. That shot did it.

So... the idea that "more bow" isn't ever useful is really difficult for me to grasp. (sure not at the expense of accuracy). More bow... can shoot three blades or a wider 2 blade... increase the likelihood of a pass-through (two holes are nice)... better blood... animals don't go as far... improved chances of recovery. Can hit a bone and keep penetrating IF shot placement isn't perfect. I can't believe I'm even typing this... what seems so logical to me.

The horse seems to be dead. I'm 6'9" 265... and 52... still can bench 315! So... I can shoot lots of bow. Maybe I'll sing a different song when I can't pull 40 back anymore.

At your size, that bench press is equivalent to shooting 33 lbs.

Gotta admit.. That was pretty funny...lol

The problem in this day and time is that draw weight alone isn't the best indicator of potential performance.

Yea about 1.11 grains per pound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@fdp would you mind elaborating a bit?

Jarhead, 6'9" and 265#. that is pretty skinny/lean. Benching 315 at 52, you don't say reps or a single lift, either way I am impressed. So I gotta ask, that 47# Bushman, is that at your draw length, or a shorter marked draw length? I am guessing you have about a 33" draw length or better, depending on where you anchor? If that is at your draw length, that 47#'s is producing a fair amount more energy than a 47#@28" bow, being drawn 28". If I am correct, that is roughly a 5 inch longer power stroke, pushing a much heavier arrow just due to its length (more momentum).

Phil M, Thank you for making that clarifying comment for this debate.

DANNY

Different bow designs have different levels of efficiency. The more energy the bow produces the more energy it can impart to the arrow. The more energy the more speed, the more speed the more momentum that will be created. The more momentum created the more potential for increased penetration.

For comparison purposes a 33lb. Wooden selfbow will deliver a certain amount of energy, a glass laminated d/r bow will deliver more. A traditional glass laminated recurve will deliver more. And a high performance super curve will deliver more than all the others.

Most "traditional" archers are offended by talks about speed. But the bottom line is the faster a given weight arrow is going the more momentum it will have.

“I'm 6'9" 265... and 52...”

So basically 2 of me. LOL

I’m a hypocrite. I just talked to my brother about a bow purchase he’s thinking about, and we were agreeing that at his 29” draw, he really doesn’t need to buy limbs over #45 for Elk hunting. His arrows are about 550 grains and his 3U POD is about 35 yards. Upgrading to an ILF, he can max out the pre-load and that’s like buying a heavier bow without pulling an extra pound. I’m sticking with the higher poundage, myself. I know that I probably don’t need to shoot as much weight as I do, but I do because I can and because I LIKE IT.

I don’t have any data by which I could prove it, but knowing human nature as I do, I am pretty sure that far more animals have been wounded and lost due to poor placement by guys who went #5 too heavy than animals have been recovered when comparable hits were made with #10 more.

After all that, I’ve decided against shooting the 470gr arrow. I believe it’s too much weight for this light bow. I was shooting my 325gr arrow and the 470gr arrow side by side today and lighter arrow was actually hitting harder than the heavier arrows to my naked eye. I might try to make up an arrow with a more reasonable weight of 380- 400gr. I’m just playing right now. I’ll have to decide on something and stick with it by August/September.

I'm not so sure that most traditional archers are offended by talks about speed, as much as them being told by complete strangers that the equipment that they have been using to take countless game animals over multiple decades is some how ineffective.... It's just laughable...

A 700 spine Big Jim Dark Timber 30 inches with a 125 grain head will weigh 391 grains. I just weighed them today.

Kansasclipper, Thanks.

Toby, my draw length in the house is almost 28” but outside shooting, it’s probably more like 27”.

I just don't understand why one would want to shoot an arrow slower than this fat boy can run!!!

I believe in a heavy arrow, but no arrow will fix a poor shot placement no matter how heavy it is. No arrow will fly faster than an animal can react..

heavy enough to be quiet. Not so heavy so it shoots reasonably efficiently. Strive to have as much of that weight up front and you will kill what is reasonable for the weight you are shooting. Bigjim

I’m always perplexed that discussions of this type always revolve around draw weight and very infrequently consider draw length. Isn’t a 33# bow drawn at 30”s quite a different weapon than a 33# bow drawn at 26”s?

" Isn’t a 33# bow drawn at 30”s quite a different weapon than a 33# bow drawn at 26”s?"....if the 33lb. bow drawn to 30" produces more energy/speed than the 33lb. bow drawn to 26" yes. If not....then no.

Toby, I've thought the same thing. I believe many post the draw weight written on their bow which often is very different than what they are getting out of it. And even if they are spot on, draw weight just identifies the effort the archer exerts and doesn't factor in limb design/performance, string material, release etc. possibly a more useful comparison would be arrow weight and speed. But then they'd be arguing about Chrono accuracy. I experiment w this stuff as I'm interested in the results I get w different set ups. But I don't lose sleep over fps or gpp--or what the charts and calculators could tell me. I've shot enough whitetail with bows in the high 30s - low 40# ranges to have confidence in my set ups. I've had great results w arrows from 400grs to @550grs. If I'm shooting a heavier arrow it's only because it's hitting the mark best for me at my shorter hunting distances.

Did anyone ever think traditional archery would ever get so complex?

These threads always remind of Denny Sturgis Jrs'. post 4 years ago where his wife took some African game with a <40# bow.

It's always been this complex for some folks. These same conversations and debates have been going on for 100 years.

I think Marie Sturgis actually used this 35# Black Widow that she also took this little Michigan dink with. ??

I think a slow Quiet bow is better than a fast loud bow. Then black widders are pretty loud. :^)

Landshark, how about a fast and quiet bow? But, I’ll have to settle for something in between. That 470gr arrow was just too heavy for my “girlie” bow.

My 30-32# longbow shoot way better with 450 grain arrows than with 350. My arrows are 4.2 mm diameter skinny carbons, 800 size with outserts and 250 grain field points. But then I’m mostly shooting at 10-15 yards max.

Kelly, I have some 470gr arrows that are tuned for my bow. They fly well but drop hard, even at short range. My 350gr arrows fly very well but I realize they are on the light side. I might make up some arrows that are in the 380-400gr range but not sure yet. My light arrows are flying very well and actually hit fairly hard for being so light. Who knows, I could change my mind tomorrow. This is the first time in my life that I have had to shoot a bow this light and I’m just having a difficult time deciding on an arrow with acceptable trajectory that is adequate for hunting.

Kelly, I have some 470gr arrows that are tuned for my bow. They fly well but drop hard, even at short range. My 350gr arrows fly very well but I realize they are on the light side. I might make up some arrows that are in the 380-400gr range but not sure yet. My light arrows are flying very well and actually hit fairly hard for being so light. Who knows, I could change my mind tomorrow. This is the first time in my life that I have had to shoot a bow this light and I’m just having a difficult time deciding on an arrow with acceptable trajectory that is adequate for hunting.

A super recurve with a 450 gr arrow would be my choice if you can only handle 33 lbs. of bow to hunt with. No more concerns.

If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here