Michael , The throat of the grip or where webbing of first finger and thumb rest is how most do it now and that is face of bow not the back . I think some even measured at the face of the sight window as well . You will also notice Wing did the same thing and some fistmele is like 91/2 “ then it changed in late 60 s or there about. I always look at old catalogues that showed where to measure like Herters did .
at howatts we used a beam scale that was calibrated to state specs. we had a stanchion mounted to the floor and had a pull stick with notches cut each inch. the bow rested on a round surface and the the pull stick was made to give exactly 26 1/4" from the pivot point with the string in the 28" notch when anchored in the floor stanchion. when we hung the bow on the scale we also hung the pull stick and then zeroed the scale. even though this method gives an almost perfect weight per industry standards as checked on a load cell we still got complaints about bows being heavier than marked. this is almost every time because the customer was weighing the bow to his arrows with the tip where he wanted it and pulling the bow further than industry standards. in 1996 we started adding three pounds to the scale prior to weighing and the complaints went down 95%. so since that time the bows have been 3# under the marked weight. all my flight bows are weighed as i described with the scale at 0 and i have never had a bow not qualify for weight. also made a lot of limbs for fita archers and never had a complaint. i made them with the scale at zero.
The 1 3/4" of an inch is what was determined to be the average distance from the pivot point to the front of the riser. So...measuring from the pivot point allowed for a standard.
There are/were too many different variations of riser width front to back for it be done any other way.
I understand that and know "TRUE" brace height is measured from throat of grip, but back in the day some manufactures had their own way of measuring and since this thread is about measuring points how did Howatt list brace height in,,, say 1972 in their literature, from the throat or the average 1-3/4" at end of shelf...
You just contradicted your post from Mr. Hatfield used 26 1/4" when AMO has always been 28" that I recall, and I've been shooting bows since the 60's...
"The ATA was originally formed in Wisconsin in 1953 as the Archery Manufacturers and Dealers Association (AMADA),[2] containing within its initial membership such renowned archers as Fred Bear and Bob Lee.
One of its first tasks was standardizing bow and bow string lengths, resulting in a measure called "AMO standards." Today, the industry's 22 essential "ATA Standards" are defined in the ATA Technical Guidelines,[3] a manual that represents about 50 years of accumulated engineering knowledge and expertise dating to Earl Hoyt, Dick Mauch (Bear Archery), and Chuck Saunders. Although these early manufacturers were business rivals, they wanted archery dealers and consumers to know their archery equipment met tough, consistent industry guidelines that wouldn't vary by manufacturer.
In the 1960s, AMADA shortened its name to the Archery Manufacturer's Organization (AMO). Its membership (mostly consisting of manufacturers) greatly increased in the 1970s after the invention of the Compound bow. In 1991, the organization moved its central location to Gainesville, Florida, under the presidency of Dick Lattimer. In 1997, with the debut of the AMO Archery Trade Show, funding formerly provided by companies' donations was replaced by the profits generated from this event."
Zbone 26 1/4 plus 1 3/4 is 28" That allows for say a very narrow longbow & a very wide recurve target type bow to measure to the same point & draw length will be the same on both. Arrow length will be different for the two bows because of the handle width & the arrow has to clear the back face especially with a broadhead. Draw length is your measurement. Brace height is the bow measurement.
Even though One riser may have a deep grip & one may be straight the makers measure brace height from where the hand touches the grip,no adding or subtracting.
Now days most just measure draw length to the back of the bow. They tend to interchange draw length with arrow length needed to clear. If you measure, most bows are pretty close to 1 3/4 from the deepest part of the grip. In other words longbows with a straight grip tend to be about 1 3/4 wide & recurves tend to have about 1 3/4" of wood left from the depth of the grip for strength.
That is the biggest reason so many think the weight is mismarked.(some are) The measurement from the depth of the grip can vary about a 1/2" which can make 2 or 3 pounds difference from the technically correct measurement of 26 1/4 to the deepest part of the grip (+ 1 3/4 ) = 28" I hope that helps & don't make it more confusing. >>>-----> Ken
If you guys would look up the AMO/ATA standards and actually READ them, you will see measuring draw length is acceptable in two ways. Measuring from the string 26-1/4" to the pivot point and adding 1-34" to get 28" is mainly for participating manufacturers.
Measuring 28" from the string to the back of the bow is for the common folk like us that argue all the time. bvd
It's funny though when we talk old Howatts and measuring points... I recently acquired a Hi-Speed (thank you Don) and it is labeled 54" AMO, yet I measured it from top nock, along the back to the riser then straight down near center of riser at pivot point then again picking up the back at the bottom limb to nock and I come up with closer to 52" rather than 54"... I think it was around 52-1/2"... So, I'd kinda like to know how they measured it to come up with 54"... There is a string maker that says to get correct string length and know correct AMO is take an unstrung bow then take some kind of a measuring string and clamp it nock to nock then add 3" for longbow, 3.5" R/D hybrid and 4" recurve...
The string is measured along the BELLY of the bow, straight across the grip, not the back of the bow. When the AMO came into use low stretch strings were not in common use in hunting and target shooting. So a 4" shorter string would fit better then. bvd
"How is AMO Length Measured? The AMO length is determined by measuring the distance between the throat of the grip and the back of the bow at a 90-degree angle to the bowstring."
A few years ago there was a string maker on bowhunting.net that showed how to measure a string. He was one of the AMO directors for 20 years or more. bvd
No buster v davenport, I was just correcting your statement AMO is:
"measured along the BELLY of the bow, straight across the grip, not the back of the bow"
and just provided a link of how AMO is measured:
"AMO length is determined by measuring the distance between the throat of the grip and the BACK of the bow at a 90-degree angle to the bowstring."
Although you are right, it's not my first day and this topic back verses belly has been discussed many times on this forum through the years, and if you had a "AMO director" tell you AMO is measured along the belly, then they they need to update their literature...
Zbone, we were arguing about the same thing in 2014. George D disagreed with your measuring method and Piddly and Rick Barbee backed him up. I referred to the article on Bowhunting.net by Marvin Long called Measuring Traditional Bows and Bow Strings the Right Way - 09/20/2006. At that time Long had been a AMO/ATO board member 20+ years and making and selling bow strings professionally for 28 years as President of TailorMaid Archery Products. The pictures that were originally with the article have been removed. bvd
So youenz are saying the link I'm going to provide below is wrong?:
"How is AMO Length Measured? The AMO length is determined by measuring the distance between the throat of the grip and the back of the bow at a 90-degree angle to the bowstring."
bvd - Can you post the link address George was involved, I think I remember that thread and George may have said measurement went through the center of the riser, but don't remember exactly... Center of riser and grip pivot point are near the same measurement depending on the bow and its length of riser... Am sure they didn't measure the BACK of riser straight down 90 degrees of bowstring???
Well my friend, when you claimed that GDS was wrong ten years ago on the same issue and Piddly and Rick Barbee joined him, you didn't try and prove them to be wrong.
Now if you happened to focus in on your pic up above, you're about a half inch off the mark. 1);Turn your bow belly up...2); take a measuring tape and follow it from the first string nock to the first edge of the first fade...3); Now take your tape straight across to the top edge of the second fade and on down to the second string nock. There you have it. bvd
Zbone if you read the whole article you will see they were talking about the length of the bow. In that paragraph they left out the word "draw" No wonder so many are confused there is not quite correct information out there. I assure you that disagrees with every other source. AMO bow length is not the same as AMO draw length. Brace height is different from both.
Bow length is from one string groove following the curve of the limbs belly side then straight across the riser (don't follow the grip dish or forward handle) then follow the curve of the other limb to string groove.
Draw length is string to deepest part of the grip 26 1/4 at 90° when bow is drawn. + 1 3/4 (the make believe distance to the back of the bow = 28" All bows are not the same thickness there thus the make believe 1 3/4 average dimension. >>>>------> Ken
Brace is deepest part of grip to string at 90° of strung bow.
I did not post those AMO draw length charts, fdp did...
AGAIN, am not talking about fistmele or draw length, am talking now about AMO bow length labeled on the bow... This thread morphed from fistmele to Howatts AMO bow length measuring...
If you read thoughly the link I provided: https://legendarchery.com/pages/amo-length? _pos=2&_sid=755780dc5&_ss=r
"How is AMO Length Measured? The AMO length is determined by measuring the distance between the throat of the grip and the back of the bow at a 90-degree angle to the bowstring. This measurement is taken with the bow strung and under tension, as the bow will be when it is used for shooting. The AMO length is usually expressed in inches and can range from 48 to 72 inches, depending on the type of bow and the archer's body size."
You say measured down the belly of the limbs and straight down the belly of the riser, we can agree to disagree, I agree with the article, you do not...
BTW, just wanted to say I haven't a problem with the length of the bow, I have a 52" Custom Bighorn and a 52" homemade flatbow I crafted and have owned one of the short Bear Super Mag 48s... I like short bows and like this bow a lot and it is a shooter, and although I haven't chronied it, it is fast...
I was just curious how Howatt in 1973 came up with that measurement to label it 54" AMO... I have a 1972 Howatt Hunter, labeled 62" AMO, I'll measure it too and post...
Zbone, I couldn't post the thread that I referred to but brought to the top another from 2003 that should explain it, backing up several of the other poster's replys. bvd
My Howatt is 62"AMO.That is bow length. No bow measures that much at 90°. Draw length is measured from the throat to the back of the bow at 90°." That is the 1/34 dim. that you add to the string to throat dim. to equal 28" String to throat is 26 1/4. You are right it is completely different than bow length. or brace height. In other words your necessary arrow length will be different from a skinny long bow to a wide riser recurve but your draw length will still be the same to the low part of the grip on both. They tried to set a standard that hardly anyone uses. Nearly everyone including all archery shops I have been to just measure the weight when the bow is drawn 28" at the face, for simplicity. That can vary up to 1/2" & 2 or 3 pounds on bows but it is where you draw the bow to & the length you have to use to get arrows. No math involved. So when you are buying arrows for your bow they simply measure to the face of the bow. Arrow spine is then correct for your bow, draw length, & bow weight. Amo Draw length <----> Amo bow length ^ Wish I knew how to draw on here. >>>----> Ken
First Above picture says "AMO length is determined by measuring the distance between the throat of the grip and the BACK of the bow at a 90-degree angle to the bowstring." line is drawn parallel 90° is + >>>----> Ken
Proper terms are essential in these types of discussions and people are using wrong terms and mixing up terms.
Bow’s don’t have a “front”. They have a “back” and a “face” (aka the “belly”.)
the term “face “ is being used to describe the “back” of the bow.
The bow’s AMO length is nock to nock, measured along the face/belly of the bow, with a flex tape to follow the limb curves.
Draw weight is measured at 26.25” from the string to the pivot point, because those are the only two non-variable points on any bow and they are the two points where the archer makes contact with the bow.
Draw weight can be measured at 28” to the back of the shelf, but an arrow is still only drawn approximately 26.25” if the back of the shelf is 1.75” from the pivot point.
The article Zbone quoted makes no sense at all…it is describing brace height measurement.
AGAIN, go to the link I provided and read the article, it not talking brace height in that paragraph, it's talking AMO BOW LENGTH, there isn't a 72" brace height "48 to 72 inches":
"How is AMO Length Measured? The AMO length is determined by measuring the distance between the throat of the grip and the back of the bow at a 90-degree angle to the bowstring. This measurement is taken with the bow strung and under tension, as the bow will be when it is used for shooting. The AMO length is usually expressed in inches and can range from 48 to 72 inches, depending on the type of bow and the archer's body size."
"The article Zbone quoted makes no sense at all"
Sorry you can't read it right, but I have no trouble reading it correctly... I can't explain it any better if you can't read it right... It's stating like I illustrated in the photo... It's measured from one nock down the back of limb through the riser at the pivot point then continuing down the back of the other limb to the other nock...
And BTW, I've crafted a few bows, I know which is the back and and the belly of limbs...
Zbone, replay your video above and pay attention as to how the kid measures the length of the bow in example #3. It is what we have been telling you all along. He's measuring it across the length of the Belly. bvd
Found the following, almost the same as the video I posted above... In the video, he said string lenght plus 3" for longbow, 3.5" for R/D hybrid, and 4" for recurve is the AMO...
Plus three inches is also used in AMO standards, see attached...
There are too many veribles when measuring nock to nock... Viper posted the following on another sight, suprised he hasn't posted on this thread...
bvd - I know that, but he is not measuring the whole length of the belly, only nock to nock along string track on belly side then subtracting inches, which is a accurate way to order a string...
Zbone, If your bow says AMO 60", you still should measure it to make sure it is right, like in example #3. You can then use the measurement of your old string to see how much shorter it is than the measurement of your bow. It will matter what material you use for a string to get the proper length and how it is made. bvd
The most accurate way to determine string length is to string the bow, adjust the string to your desired brace height, then measure the string on the bow.
What’s causing all the confusion is the statement, How is AMO length measured? There is a word missing between AMO and length! Because of this missing word, bow length, brace height, and draw length are all getting mixed up!
I totally agree with the guy in the video way #3, measure the string that has the right brace and as I said above, plus 3" for longbow, 3.5" for R/D hybrid, and 4" for recurve is the AMO"...
The distance that article is describing is about 1.75” on most bows!!
Throat of grip to back of bow perpendicular to the bowstring is the depth of the grip!
Bow length is measured parallel to the bowstring, not at a 90 degree angle.
Just because someone puts words on paper does not mean they are accurate and that Legend article makes no sense.
It is accurate that measuring a bow nock to nock along the belly does not give you a bow’s AMO length. It gives you a reference length to determine the proper length of string to fit the bow, that is normally 4” shorter for B-55 and 3” shorter for low stretch materials.
The steel bow string standards are used by the manufacturer to ensure a bow is the stated AMO length.
Okay, took some measurements today on the Hi-Speed...
The bowstring is exactly 49" long...
Did the same measurement like the guy in the video (example #3) and measured it from the upper limb nock grove on the belly side straight down (like a bowstring) to the bottom limb nock grove, and the measurement is 53-1/4"...
From the nock grove to the tips (both tips) is 7/8"...
