We (the collective) like a stiff narrow handle, 66"ish, 1&1/2"ish wide, modified meare-heathe, Now is this cause the stiff narrow handle is more comfortable, easier to get arrow flight, less demand'n of good form? OR is this gourp this the most vocal.

I find myself leave'n the house with a junk pile osage bow the most. I think it's cause they are handy. The bows look like this - osage, under 60", 1" to 1&1/8" wide till just before the tip tapers, handle is somewhere near 9/16", limbs taper from there to somewhere around 7/16" (ya gotta give a 1/16" on the thickness measurements). Handy bows!

Full bend'n handles in skinny short osage are a natural. Why do ya think they are not more popular. If your favorite selfbow is different from "the collective". What's it like and why is your favorite?

Rusty

ummm....... cuz it's the only one I've built so far??8^)

Rusty,

From my experence I've found that the bend through the handle bows have more hand shock. Some say they don't. Besides after you have one of those bend through handles go snap, crackle, pop right in your hands it's hard to pull another one when you can feel the bend. Another thing, I think the short sinew backed stiff handle bows are faster.

arrowman >>>>>=======>>> Troy D. Breeding -----Sticks and Feathers Arrowsmithing-----

Rusty I've made alot more glass bows than wood ones.The narrow raised handled,flat limbed type bow is easier for me to get good arrow flight and shoot.I prefer a round or oval limbed ELB or Art Young type no raised handle at all.All limbs.I love horn nocks also.I guess the reason I like this type of bow is because it doesn't look any thing like a glass one.I still build and shoot glass ones I just dont want to "redesign" the glass bow when I'm building wood ones.Round limbed bows work better with spoke shaves and chair scrapers to, and I love to use these tools.I save my rasping for the handles of my glass ones.Darren

I like shooting short, wide self bows (55-62"), and so, usually tiller them to bend (if only slightly) through the handle. I find that they have less hand shock than stiff handled bows. I'm only about 20 bows into this madness, however, and it may be that I just haven't learned to properly tiller longer, stiff-handled bows.

Tom

The stiff handle bows let you make a narrow bow at the arrow pass, which easier on spine. Wide bows for me are hard to shoot, so I've only made a few. I don't like the way they feel, too narrow in the handle for me.

My last bow is a very fast bow, about 50-55#, I suppose. It's long and narrow, about 1 1/4" or so for most of its lenghth, then narrowing down to the tips. The mid section is stiff, and the tips are stiff, but it doesn't have a whole lot of string follow. Some natural deflex in the upper limb makes it look like it has more than it does.

It's about 68" or so long. That's about right for that width of bow and my draw. It shoots very well, very fast. I haven't finished the thing yet, as far as wrapping the handle or putting on a coat of anything. Still needs a sanding, too. Pretty ugly right now, but a performer.

I prefer to make stiff-handled osage (or mulberry) longbows. Width is 1.5" at the flares and tapers in straight lines to just under.5" at the tips. Limbs are tillered to bend evenly throughout their whole length with the tips being a tad stiffer. I don't like the meare heath design where the width stays the same untill the the last few inches where it tapers at the tips. It just looks ungainly to me. I like the straight, sleek tapering from the flares to the tips. It looks better and it is easier to tiller (for me)because the limb thickness does not taper as much.

Ditto on the hand shock of D bows. I like a stiff handle of around 1.25 in. Don't like it too narrow as I have large hands. I like 'em long and wide 66-68 in. long and 2 in. wide for white woods (26 in. draw). The piece of osage you gave me became a bow of around 64 in. long and 1.25 in. after the fadeouts but that's osage which is a denser wood. Thanks again fo the wood and the great ead.

I don't really have a favorite at the moment. I make my white wood flat bows 64 to 68 long 1 3/4 -2 wide to mid limb or a little past. Osage I like around 60 or under seems I get hand shock with the stuff if I go to long. Greenwood archer, would you tell me a little more about your bows? How long? Draw weight and length? Does makeing it bend clear out to the tips reduce hand shock? Does it bend as much near handle as mid limb? Sorry about so many questions. I got the back worked today on a great looking mullberry that Murray sent me thats plenty long(and pretty}and I just have to get at least one long bow out of it.

Thanks,

Blair

Rusty, mine are about the same as yours, dont know why, but that handle design works for me. i really dont care a rip what it looks like as long as it works. George N

Lookin' at what I got left on the wall downstairs, I gotta admit there seems to be a majority of stiff handled bows, but not of the usual Meare Heath design. Got a couple of those but also a couple of ELBs, several pseudo-Cherokee style flatbows of various woods (just narrower in the nocks than a traditional Cherokee bow; I like this style, easy to make and easy to shoot), a Sudbury or two, and a couple of short plains-style bows.

Still, if I don't think about it and just grab a bow as I head out the door, I usually end up with one of the ELBs or a generic Indian-style flatbow. Both styles have wide handles, mostly stiff but might be bending slightly, and are around man-tall, 70 inches in my case. These bows just seem to shoot better for me.

Well, we all know that two of the factors that influenced design in ancient bows were function and wood availability. It seems that the Meare Heath was made in a time and place of decent wood availability, and that the bow perfomed very well. How old was that one? 9000 years? I think that they hit on something early on and we haven't found a better combination of shootability, speed, and durability in a real world bow design for whitewood.

Wasn't the thin design of the ELB in large part an attempt to use less wood for bow making (more bows from a tree)?

I used to only make bows with handle. Now I have started making D bows and find them just fine. They are stiffer in the middle naturally and I also only grip it with my thumb and first finger. I never notice any hand shock with mine. I shoot heavy arrows and that might make some difference with the leftover energy. Maybe with most of the work in middle limb to the tips it helps reduce shock? Maybe my heavy arrows help. I just never noticed it. Oh, I also deflexed my short bows. So they store less energy braced. Maybe that is the reason I do not have and hand shock.

What do you guys think?

Rob

Hey Rod - Ya don't use any reflex at all in your short bows. Don't lose speed. Boy it'd sure make string the dang things easier. Get a short narrow bow with relfex and it wants to turn like a worm when ya try to string it.

Rusty

Rob- any bow with follow will have less shock, so it "follows" that a deflexed bow would have less shock as well. If I remember correctly, you recurve and sinew as well?

Hmmm- if a working handle bow kicks a lot, and a reflexed bow does as well, then maybe (aside from tip mass and good tillering) keeping the workingest parts of the limb away from your hand is the key here. Anyone know enough engineering to contribute on that?

Whip tillered bows are supposed to have very low shock.

Rusty, I think the bow is pretty quick and have had other people comment on it as well. I have never Chrono'ed a bow. I also draw a 47" Osage bow to 26" with reflexed tips. Oh yea, I can pull/pull string it will hunting real easily. So I do not have to hunt with it strung.

Pablo, I do recurce and sinew, but only sinew when need. The little short bows are selfbows, if I can help it. I have a 51" bow I am making for a friend. He wants it 30# @ 28". I already have the tips curved but the rest of the bow is straight. I should deflex it soon and finish tillering and see how she does with a plain back.

Rob

Hey- draw it 28" and it'll deflex itself!

paul bh

Hmm- Jim, so if I plan to make a modest 10 bows next year then I should order 10 osage staves at $65 + $10 each shipping and spend $750 to have it sent to me? That would be so much better than to go out and enjoy the process beginning to end just like the poor example of bowyers craft represented in the Meare Heath bow, or the Sudbury bow that was crafted by natives in my area hundreds of years ago?

Are you suggesting that your skill and designs are better than the whitewood bows made by Ishi simply because they're yallar wood? If whitewood is inferior, then surely the cultures that used it successfully for millenia for defense and survival must have exhibited SUPERIOR skill if they could make it work. This isn't my contention, but a counter to your inferiority assertion.

Everybody has preferences, and we poke fun whitewood vs. yellow wood. I like working osage. If I had a ton of osage, I'd trade a significant amount for other woods.

Don't want to argue here, and maybe you meant it in jest- but if not I'd like to discuss it

-pbh

Jim easy to say that when you live in Oregon. Dont have any yew here in the Adirondacks.Makes me quiver to think of how many yew staves I would have screwed up by now at $150 a piece.I dont feel so bad when I cut the wood myself and screw it up.Seems like all the staves I buy I put aside until later.Got a hickory I bought 8 years ago, scared to brake and I only paid $10 for it.Darren

Oh yes, or yew at $100 + per. Yoiks!

Pablo what pert of mass you from?Darren

I live in Westford- Next to Chelmsford, couple towns South of NH- just far enough West of Lowell ;o)

Where are you from?

BTW- I was paul bh until a couple of days ago- I had to change the name because of confusion with another poster here.

LOL, Jim - I jsut posted a quote form Art young (the osage bow you descirbe is the type he built I beleive). In that letter he reflects on the weakness of yew. So if white wood sucks and yew is a wimp, what does that leave :).

Rusty

As a veteran whitewood bowyer, a relative novice to osage, and a yew virgin, I can say that I can make a better bow with less effort out of osage than I ever made of any whitewood.

I've been shooting an osage bow since the end of summer and recently picked up one of my better examples of a whitewood bow. I started shooting right in the dirt, missing my mark by feet. Not ever shooting a better bow, I never noticed how inferior the cast was. These two bows are about 4lbs apart in weight and show the same side profile.

I'm with Jim, whitewood sucks. I use it because I have to not because I want to. I would travel quite far for the opportunity to cut some osage. I would trade all the hickory you could stand for a few staves of osage. Matter of fact I just cleaned out all of my whitewood ('cept one B. Locust) and am going to beg, buy, or barter real bow wood for real bows for real men from now on. My experiments are over, I want to make bows.

Kieth If you want to try hop-hornbeam I have a few cut and several uncut.Let me know and one is yours. Pablo Im from Schroon Lake NY.Its in the Adirondacks. Work for a company that has a plant in Adems Ma. way west of you I believe.Darren

Jim,

A very generous offer. You will be hearing from me.

I've never been afraid to be a failure, hell I'd never have lived a day if that were the case. I've got more courage than sense, for sure.

You will get a picture.

Jim is Don Adams still making bows?I remember an article in Fine Woodworking probably in the late 80's about his bows. This was the article that really sparked my interest in ELB's.Wish I had a copy of that mag. wasn't mine and couldn't get it from the guy who showed it to me.There is also an interview with him in Trad Bowyers of America.Met a guy a the Michigan Longbow shoot that had two of his bows an elb and an american style flatter limbed one.These were the two most beautiful bows I have ever seen.

I love all wood. I love all bow wood. Each has advantages and diadvantages. It's cold up here in NH. I've worked several different woods (not yew). Osage and ash are the only ones that do not stiffen up in the cold. Osage is absolutely breathtakingly beautiful.(Thanks, Rusty. No way I'm stainin' or dyein' that bow!) How's yew in the cold. My selfbowyer friends here won't hunt with yew in the winter. They say it is to brittle then and are afraid of breaking it. Any tru

Darren,

E-mail me if you would.

[email protected]

great thread running guys; here in MO. we have most of the hardwoods and plenty of osage, although it seems to be known as hedge to most around here; a lot think its highest and best use is firewood (gasp-verging on apoplexy) or fence posts. Have seen some beautiful corner posts doing survey work, my partner usually pulls me along to my cries of ..but, but, lookeehere.

Ash, black locust, hackberry, bitternut hickory all work well for me. Trying a ELB out of Ash, nice bit of reflex. Can't share excitement as I have webtv and not a computer, scanner, and digital camera etc.

Flat bows with a stiff handle do work well, with the whitewoods. I lean to the ELB style and will do a few that way this year. One mulberry in the works, like the other flat ones. A really long time in tillering that big flat expanse, guess that is why I am leaning to the ELB or at least the round belly bows now. dvp eom

Well Jim I must admit you make your point. Having been fortunate enough to work yew I must admit I would work little else if I had a garage full of it,but I have precious little so I make bows out of what I have. Blair

Jeez, Rusty! Now you've gone and resurrected that darned old white v. yaller feud all over again. Nice going.

Well for what it's worth I'll toss in my two cents: a competant bowyer should be able to make a SUPERIOR bow out of any number of woods, IMO. Sure yew and Osage make superior bows, but then so do any number of alternate choices as well. To limit oneself to a particular wood or a specific design seems, at the very best, stullifying. At the very worst, dumb. Even Glenn St. Charles, who's definitely a yew proponant, has admitted there's a wide, wide world of other woods out there.

To summarize, if you want to limit your design and wood choices for yourself, so be it. But I would encourage new bowyers to experiment and learn as much of the properties of other woods as they can so they know whereof they speak when forming their opinion.

Brad I agree with A well designed D bow having little hand shock.I build most of my ELb's with no raise handle some over 75" long and only one inch wide.Another thing that helps to reduce the amount of hand shock is to make both limbs the same length and shoot the arrow at or slightly above bow center.I like 3/4 ".Tim baker makes his like this and only shoots about 1/4" above center I believe. Darren

Well, you can make a bow out of nearly any wood, including willow. The question is; Do you want to use the absolute best wood possible for any design? Osage is the best wood for narrow bows, long bows, wide bows, or short bows. The whitwoods are good for certain designs, but not for others. If you had two wide bows, made exactly the same, but out of different woods- osage and hickory, which would be better? Answer: The osage one. It would be much less sensitive to changes in humidity and temperature. It would be naturally more resisitant to rot. It would be more "springy" than hickory. Osage would be more durable because the wood was not being pushed as hard as its whitewood counterpart, even though they are the same width. Both bows are good, but when you ask which one is the best, then there is only one.

Also, someone once said to me, "A craftsman should use the best materials whenever possible."

AHHH! NOW we're goin'.

Huntin' season's over; the clock rolled over; some of us are cabin-bound; Jim From Oregon is back; and the wood debate resurrects itself. Sure was getting boring there for a while, wasn't it? Shouldn't be long before we start hearing from Tim. Let's start runnin' down whitewood, so he'll jump back in :^).

Jim, the yew bow I built is virtually identical to your specs above, except a lightweight. 73 3/4"Tip-to-tip; 45#@28", and has 1/2" of string follow. Its a sweet shooter, and was the second bow tested at MO last summer. It shot a 500 grain arrow 155 FPS (110 plus weight), which ain't bad.

Interestingly enough, another bow I had tested was Bow No. 4, a hackberry (whitewood) which was 64 3/4" long, had 1" of string follow, and pulled 55#@27". It shot 162 FPS, or 107 plus weight, at a 1" shorter draw length.

Now then, even though I built both the above bows, and treasure them highly, I STILL PREFER OSAGE!!! But to me, the relative raw performance issue shows a lot of support for the equality of whitewood. I realize hickory didn't show well at MO, but Tim's pecan did, though he shoots with a very low brace height.

Seems that the DURABILITY DURING HUNTING CONDITIONS issue is still open for debate, and maybe that's where you're coming from. 'Course, I've also heard negatives about yew in the durability issue. Another issue for debate is which wood is easier to make a bow from. Believe it or not, I still believe that osage is the wood most likely to result in a shootable, durable bow BY A BEGINNER! I can count on the fingers of a couple fingers the number of osage bows I've had break, but whitewood is another story for me. My latest heartbreak is a very nice pecan bow I had working, which I'd spent a lot of time on, which broke during final tillering.

Anyway, fun to discuss, what?

By the way, I'll try to get some pictures of my yew bow headed your way....camera's been broken. Thanks again.

Joe.

I do believe that osage is more resistant to bowyer's mistakes, and therefore not a bad choice for a beginner. However, as to the statement of whitewood being poor examples of the bowyer's craft, I would argue that this is contrary to logic! If a wood is more tolerant to mistakes, then it would follow that it would require less skill to make a serviceable bow. If whitewood has inferior qualities (which, while I'm a novice here, I would debate) then it would require more bowyer skill to overcome the materials inherent shortcomings.

All that said, I've never worked yew. I've made a couple of osage bows, and a few whitewoods. I dig it all, baby.

By the way, I may not remember correctly, but aren't there pictures of a couple of Ishi whitewood bows in Ishi in Two Worlds?

Bradbow- toss in a yew bow as well (who's donating the stave? ;o)

Brad, Please shoot me an e-mail at [email protected]

Heee Heee - Stir 'at pot boy - I find it easier to get a fast bow out of pecan (whitewood) than osage. I can make a pretty good osage bow (and osage is tuff as wood gets to abuse) but not as fast (speed) as a pecan. Some osage don't miss the pecan speed much if you just talk about averages bows but if ya try to trick the bows up for speed, the margin starts going in the direction of pecan. Not that speed is a criteria tha espcailly impresses me. I think the thing I am driving at is more "shootablity" (what ever that is) that might have as much to do with desgin as any particular wood (though I enjoy wood debates as long as noone meets me out behind the barn).

Osage's tuff, pecan's fast, yew's rare, hickory ain't is good BBQ as mesquite. :)

Rusty

Oh Lord, please help us keep this thread free of harsh words, crazy personal attacks and please bring love and happiness between Guano and Tim B. ;-)

Amen...

I've build bows from many materials. My favorite is Osage, due to the fact that I'm a total hack and it makes up for my poor craftsmanship. I can totally butcher the tiller and still have a great shooter. Got Yew billets, but havent touched them.. It sounds like I need to spend some time with Jim in Or.

Will

Brad you think Lances osage bow is fast wait until he gets his hands on the elm I sent him with the stealth limbs. Darren

No NO now wait Brad, I said "I" could build, that don't mean that someone else might not be able to build a bow out their chosen wood and whip my speeds. "I" just find it easier to build a fast bow out of pecan. I got a pecan that is just about like the pictures I posted. 2&1/4" wide in mid limb driving portion tapered to spear point sinew wrapped nocks, stiff 4" handle 15/16" wide, 1&1/4" deep. 62" tip to tip. It's as fast as any fps I've seen posted BUT...just one little ding in the back and it's toast. This one is the 3ard try at build'n one. You are testing every fiber in the power portion of the limb when ya trick one out. Ya got to have a straight, knot free, flat backed stave. I think pecan or hickopry is easier to find that stave in. These type bows are much easier to make out of boards. I personally don't think that most self bowyers (ametures like me) can get as much speed out of a stave bow as a board bow. there is jsut to many irregularites when ya use the first groth ring as the back. BBBUUUUTTT if ya could find that knot free, straight grained, flat backed osage stave, I'd like to see someone build a tricked out speedster out of it. I'll bet it wuold be fast.

Quailty of the wood has something to do with me being able to build for speed. I guess I just get better pecan then osage.

Rusty

Go ahead and say it, Rusty "Pecan can whup osage any design, any day of the week".

He says it when no one else on the wall can hear. He also says that you're all ugly- especially Ferrett ;o)

I admit it.

I'm an osage cultist. All bow to the King of Bow Woods!

Why?

No other wood is as durable. Hickory comes close, but won't stand up to moisture. No other wood works as well under a sharp tool. No other wood allows me to use such a wide variety of designs and lengths. And no other wood comes anywhere close to the fire of osage under a hand-rubbed finish.

I've built a few whitewood bows, and they were most definitely bows, not walking sticks. Matter of fact, I built a few hickory-backed walnut bows that I would flight shoot against any osage bow out there.

But osage is my first choice, and likely always will be.

This speed-from-wood thing continues to intrigue me.

There's no question that Tim's stright-stave/skinny-tipped pecan bows shot fast at MO. A bunch of us stood around and saw it.

I have not done an exhaustive analysis of all those 90-some-odd bow tests, but I'd bet that the AVERAGE osage bow was faster than the AVERAGE whitewood bow. You take Tim's results out of the equation, and the whites didn't stack up too well.

Obviously, there was a wide diversity of bowyer's work tested, so maybe the "good 'uns" offset the "mediocre 'uns". Also, the AVERAGE recurve outshot the AVERAGE straight-tipped bow. Again, Tim's bows being the exception.

One of the big reasons I like Osage, is that I can't keep from wanting to "mold" the stave to my notion of optimum profile. Osage is SOOO easy to heat and bend. Its a real chore with whitewood.

I'll not concede the "Osage is slower" statement, without making everything apples-to-apples.

By the way, what is Black Locust? A whitewood, or a colored wood? The one bow I've made from it acted an awful lot like osage, in its handling, and heatability. The wood seems lighter than osage, and mine is holding reflex.

Isn't that really the equation for speed? Highly stressed, back-bent (recurved or reflexed) profile; light limb mass; light string; lack of arrow paradox?

Think anyone's gonna make 125-plus-weight at MO this year? If I put a FF string on this little B. Locust, it might get close. Then again, it might blow up in my hands. :^)

Joe.

Joe maybe "easier to get speed" out of a wood means the with in the means of ones skill to tiller precisely. Some of my osage tiller jobs left something to be desired. I'm gett'n lots better but some are still a challange

Rusty

Joe- I'm starting to really study the data from last year's MOBow in prep for making a speed bow. I don't know if it will make 125 fps, but it will at least be one of the shortest most unstable bows there. I've learned a LOT in the past 2 bows that I've made, and finally think that I might make a decent one soon.

What say ye of the assumption that many of the whitewood bows are beginner's "warm-up" bows, and that the osage represents more seasoned bowyer's attempts?

That shoul have read "+125 fps". Although, some days I wonder if a bow will make 125 fps.

OK,... It's tawk to tha rookie time...

Yall keep sayin' "Tims' BoWs" are yall talkin about Tim BaKer?? If ya are... No offense meant to ANYONE here... BuT aint comparin' a BaKer, HaM, TorGes Built BoW to others Bows like chunkin Pablo "Latino luv machine" in the ring with Holyfield?? I mean aren't these guys s'posed to be the masters of the wood BoWs?? I mean that's what I gather from what yall have said in the past about them....

That said... I reckon I cheated... I used FF on me "iTTy biTTy wAll BoW", And yea... heh heh heh, she's got some hellacious curves in her... BuT the loops don't touch the limb!! Honest they don't.8^)

and RUSTY,

You said sumpin 'bout don't nik or ding the back or BaNg Pecan blows on ya.... Could that br remedied with a thin layer of deerraw hide?? Or is it more an integral property thing with the inside of the pecan??

Paul...er...Pablo...very valid possibility on the beginner's using White theory. Suggest you eliminate those bows having excessive string follow from your analysis, if you're looking for apples-to-apples. It seemed to me that that element was possibly a good indicator of bowyer skill.

Speaking of short and unstable, one of the most beautifully crafted bows we shot at MO was bow No. 47. It was a short, composite horn recurve, that we TRIED to draw to 32", at the bowyer's request. That little sucker LOOKED like it should leave a vapor trail...only shot 104 plus weight. We tried several times, and kept getting similar results. Go figure.

Joe.

This years MOJAM will see many Osage bows with slightly rounded bellies that will shoot super fast. These bowyers are fantastic and are regulars on the wall..

Since I'm a fan of that type of bow, I can't wait to see the results this year...

Joe, I would put B. Locust with Osage. I love that stuff.

If I have time, I will be creating my superfast competition speedtrap bow.. But then again.. If I have the time... Ha

Will

Hey Joe,

Email me.. I lost your address when I switched computers.

[email protected]

Thanks, Joe- Do you think that an inch of string follow equates to about a loss of 1" of draw? I'm looking for new ways to build stuff in to the fit of the line from last year's data. Just a possible theory here...

Lance- Yes, that's be Tim Baker. You'll notice that Tim's bows were a real standout- as you might expect. The possible skewing of results towards pecan, white, etc. because of the number of performers that Tim brought has had to be pointed out to those doing interpretations.

Holyfield wouldn't stand a chance. I'd give him a sound beating with a 1/2 reduced ash stave when he started rolling on the mat laughing at his opponent.

he he he...

And I tell ya what else I've learned from heresay of other guys around here... Joe Mattingly, BraD BoW, Rusty, FeRRet, and DRT, are also the guys, that when you show up with a BoW that you are especially proud of the way you tillered it... OnE of these fellers can pull out one of their halfa$$ed jobs (NoT even one of their good ones), and it will STILL put your' pride and joy to shame!!

Bradbow, my D bows with stiffened handles are smooth also. But my well tillered ash D bow which bends in the handle kicks like Rusty's mule. Joe M. 2 fingers of osage around here in NH will run ya about $200. Around here osage and yew are not dues payin' woods. Whitewoods and boards are inexpensive here so a budding bowmaker can whittle away. I can look outside in my backyard and count at least 3 species of trees that I can cut for bows. I can also go to the lumberyard in the morning, find some oak or maple and have a bow ready by 6 PM. I know because I've done it. Osage is the Cadillac of bow woods to me. Its cast is the same as same weight ash, oak, hickory and maple (no chrono). It's beauty and shootability is unsurpassed, to my mind. Believe me winter time shootability is a big factor here.It doesn't stiffen up in the cold (neither does ash but osage is pretty). Many winter hunts here in NH are made when temps are in the teens and 20's. So there are many factors to consider and there are no "better" woods. Choice is determined by a variety of cir

George- what is your experience with oak in the cold? I made a white oak billet bow that may have stiffened in the cold, but I haven't gotten a chance to weigh it under warmer conditions.

Hey, ash takes a beautiful stain, and the difference between early and late wood really makes an impression. I think that osage is a real lookah as far as wood goes, but ash is definitely not second string with respect to looks. Toughness compared to osage- that's a different story, admittedly.

paul bh

Shoot - Lance Ya can't put me in the same class Brad or Joe. I just wish I could tiller like 'em boys. I'm gett'n better but I can still miss one. The ones I hit on are the ones I subdue with steam and a caul. Now I can tiller a straight piece of wood. I got some of 'em reflex/deflex and drammamine tillers that'd make ya snicker when ya see 'em. To me tiller'n is just not make'n a nice arch, it's also gett'n ever microgram of wood off the bow that is not contributing to the effectiveness of the boy. Joe and Brad do that _real_ good.

Rusty

Rusty

Will. E-mail on its way. Sometime when you've got 30 minutes, I need to tell the story of my grand-daughter's first squirrel hunt the other day, down on my cousin's place where you were. MUCH fun!

You need to send 'em two little girls of yours down here to Texas when they can get a proper up-bringing.

Paul. Not sure on the 1" follow equals 1" draw-length thing. Sounds reasonable on the surface. My gut feel says that a bow that's taken follow has lost something in cast, even if it's drawn to 28", while a non-followed bow still has its "life" drawn only to 27". In other words, all things being equal, I bet the non-followed bow would outshoot the followed bow, even if drawn shorter to compensate. Joe.

The MOBOJam should be a interesting place this summer. I agree with Will that the osage will have a good showing. I encourage everyone to make your best osage and then make your best other wood. Bring them all. Having a variety of wood type bows made by the same individual will help average out the human difference. Let the fun begin. Oh and you should see the osage log me and young pup staved out this weekend. Straight..and clean. It is beautiful. Never did make it over to the hackberry tree. Maybe next time. keith

OK, So as a beginner, I consider RaWHide a seatbelt for my skull, and a "BeTTer safe than sorry" Measurement (plus I think it's kewl!!)... So once you get to be like MoNdo tiller God... Is it just a safety barrier because the BoW is so close to being exact with no excess wood or overbuild?? If a short bow will break withOUT Rawhide... then what does the raw hide Do?? Does it compress?? does it stretch or is it like a big ol bandaid??

And here's another dumn rookie question. I was reading the TBB about how to "DEcrown" a stave to get better performance out of it... These need to be rawhided right?? Do they need to be left wider than normal??

TX/Lance,

You're trying to drive us all insane, trying to read through those misplaced capitals of yours, right. You are a fiend, sir.

No, you don't HAVE to rawhide a decrowned bow. It's not a bad idea, but board bows are decrowned almost by definition, and very few of them have a rawhide back.

Lance, If you soak and stretch the rawhide before gluing it down it will help the performance of the bow. It is still a self-bow because you made it "yourself". Thanks again Rusty!

Your right, Paul. I'm not putting ash down a bit. It is my favorite whitewood. Oak stiffens up on me in our climate. It's Rusty's fault! 'sage is beautiful. geor

Hi Rusty,how was your holiday???,fine I hope.Anyhow,why osage???.You old LW folks have heard my speel before,but here it is again.

I have found that after building well over 100 osage bows, that I have NEVER had one fret,crack,break,follow or go out of tiller{unless sinewed}.

Having built bows out of hickory,ash,oak,black heart cherry,locust,sasafras,yew,maple,and mulberry,I find them to be good if that's all you got.Kinda like kissing your sister:}:}:}.

I am a hunting archer,and experiance shapes my beliefs.I do not embrace osage out of desire,but rather out of results.It is the toughest,most elastic,hard core,non setting,non moisture absorbing wood on the planet.

It can be cut green and strung in 60 days.I donate many bows to charity,and sell a few.Once I gave an elm bow as a christmas present to a dear freind,who called me 3 months later to tell of it's demise.Never again!!!.My customers,and my charity's get the best.

Osage costs more for a reason.It's worth more.Now this is not to say that whitewoods will not do the job.For thousands of years the Eastern Indians used them.However in this day and age,there is no reason for anyone to settle for native woods,unless that is your interest.

I built a black locust bow,with cherry flesh backing,and sinew string,just to be "indigenous",and I loved that bow.

Anyhow,thats my story and I'm sticking to it:}:}:}.....bill

Hey Bill. I don't have a sister but I'm kissin' my osage bow! Georg

Well OK here is another pot stirrer. Osage ain't osage ain't osage. Yep sometime ya cut an old tree ('round here is the only experience I have with osage) and the heart is not yellow at all not even close. It's red-orange. It has very thin rings. Ya need to make 'em a little wider and usualy back 'em. The good thing is this old tree is often pretty straight and clear, maybe a few pins. If it has snake the snake is often pretty flat in elevation. I've learned from Murray that ya gotta watch these stave real close cause they can have wind shake checks that go almost to the top of the heart wood. Soooo I can tell ya for sure these osage yaller dog bowyers are just talk'n 1 in 50 trees. The other 49 might make a bow but it will cost hours of work and be frought with possible pitfalls. From around here my I find 12" to 14 " gives me the best bows. I can find 10 good pecan trees for every osage worth cutt'n

Rusty

Hey guys. I got it! All bow woods are great! George

Rusty; no doubt about that, one in 50 worth cutting when talking about osage, most strolls in the woods around my part of Mo. take your pick of dozens of nice oak or hickory, just waiting to cut, split, peeled, and dried. Now the osage, you gotta find a good old hedgerow, then start really looking, figuring panels clear, bark straight, can I fell it, you know the drill. But, what do I have the most bows and staves, yup, osage. Pin knots, big knots, bark pockets, borer holes, sweep, crook, wind split, it has it all, but the yellow wood is fun, yes fun, you can figure out how to make a bow and sometimes it turns out right. dvp eom

Rusty,

You mean like the one with the mother of all knots on the edge of the limb 56inches up the stave like BraD just sent me??

JeFF,

HeY!! fInaLLy sumbody noTiced!! I bEEN seeinG HoW LonG it would TaKe beFore thAt gOt on someBoDys neRVes. hE He hE...(LoL)

Hey Lance , is that all it was , I was sure yOu had Some sort of weird code thing going there.Anyway that osaGe wood is jEst a fairy story for us Old World boys, good bow wood is wood that you can get.Wid is Wid .You can only piss with the C'"£$ youve got ,to dredge up some old saw from the dark past.Or to corrupt an old blues classic, "If it wasnt for bad wood, I wouldnt have no wood at all." LOL Cheers Pod

HeY PoD,

I see you're listed as "OTHER" You're not over around England are ya?? If ya Are I know what you're tawkin about. I spent 4 years over there, and I got the hankerin to build a selfbow when I was there. People wanted the equivelent of 300 dollars for a 6"x6"x6' osage plank!!

Lance, I just figured it was a nervous twitch causing you to occassionally hit the shift key or a case of mental instability (which I haven't totally ruled out ;^o).

I like osage. Why? Dunno, just do. I'm hopin' I can come to tolerate hickory seein' as how I got a truck of it dryin and can easily get more of that. I only know of 1 osage tree around and that sucker is about 300 years old. 3 trunks I couldn't think of puttin my arms around. That and it's in the historic section of town. I'd try it if they were to let me.

possum

OK, So oSage LuVers... what do I do with this nOt in this stave?? hUh?? huH?? HuH??... I means it's right on tha frikkin side of tha dang stave... can't cut bow shorter.. Would be like a 56" bOw or sumpin like dat.... Cant get past it.... goes oVer toO FaR into the stave... GoTTa wroK wif it...... What do I leaves this big Ol pOOched out thing like a pregnant snake sumPin on the side of the limb or whut??

hEy JeFF!! OK..OK.. I'll stoP..

Well Brad I think ya are gett'n to the heart of the discussion. I was kinda hope'n to have that exact discussion except over design. For example I've had few diasters with bend'n handle bows. If I did have a bow blow I pretty well knew it was gonna go an where with bend'n handles. Why? They more dependable? My stiff handles, straight tips are faster then my D bows, straight tips. Is it just my build'n or are they faster. I haven't made to many recurves but one has been a screamer and one average. How come. Somthing I did or didn't do right. Why a 4" handle, why not a 5, 5&1/2, 6?? Jim Hamm likes a long stiff section with what would be considered whip tiller. Less hand shock? more accurate? As for as that goes what contributes to a bow accuracy? Tiller? What does twist do to accuracy? Is a snakey bow as effecient and accurate as a striaght bow. If ya have two stave exactly alike except one has to be steamed and the other not. Do they shot alike, as dependable,as fast. Dang there is so much stuff I don't know. Read'n sure helps but the ain't exactly a consenus sometimes on certain point. What wood to build a bow out of is certain important but I 'bout got that figured out....and I don't care what ya say :).

Rusty -the pecan kid- Craine

ps we ain't even started talk'n back'ns yet. Rusty

Well Lance First things first! Have ya got a back yet? Have ya got you center line trace along the back with the grain. THE VERY VERY VERY LAST thing you do is cut something off. LEAVE ALL your option open till there ani'n no more options. If ya got you back and center line layed out. Tell us about it. How wide ya gonna make your limbs. Where will the width be in relation to the knot. Hee Hee don't fret boy work.

Rusty

osage probly is the best bow wood. I cant say myself. only what I read on the leather wall. It dont grow around here in eastern N.C. I started making selfbows about a year ago, only 5 under my belt.A Friend of mine,bazil watts has made some real pretty bows of white wood. It caught my intrest, and got me started. He has made some Hickory and other bows of white wood with virtuly no string follow. I Think price has to be a consideration when making selfbows. As far as tough, I dont know about osage, only what Ive read. I do know Hickory is TOUGH! maybe not the best bow wood but TOUGH! especially pignut. im just a rookie at this stuff, but made a hickory bow last may, and only has 1 1/4 string follow, and has not changed. Hunted with it all winter. When I go to wal-mart to buy a hatchet to wittle out my staves, It says OLD HICKORY on the handle not old osage. LOL 8>)

Brad,

Hit the nail on the head.. What is better? Thats a question only the individual bowyer can answer.

How easy is it to find your material.?

Can a bow be created from the wood with the tools you employ and is if fun to build it with that material?

Can the bow fling and arrow fast enough to kill a critter?

Is the bow durable?

For my definition on better its, Osage. I'm a simple man with simple needs.

Will

TX/Lance,

AAAUUUUGGGHHHHH!!!!

I thought that the capitals would spell out a message of some sort. It's also reminescent of those cut-out letter ransom notes. Ahhh- reminds me of my childhood.

OK,

Here's the knot. My thumbs on the back of the stave.

Jeff he he he.

Oh geez whin whin, 'at ain't not knot. doesn't even look like to me that it's gonna be a problem. How thick dow ya think the limb will be right there. If ya run out of limb and into the knot put a patch on the belly. I've got a yew bow that I had to put 2 dutchman plugs into the side of the limb and that was a $150 stave. Makes ya work carefully.

Start your tiller taper and leave that area alone for a while. Well ya can do that with a draw knife or a chesel. I gues it might be kinda hard to do with a 2 hp table saw :) Ya may have to work 'is 'en by hand Rusty

Lance I forgot to tell you to keep that table saw blade and that router bit away from them staves.I screw enough up with a band saw cant imagine a router.Leave that not area exta wide and thick till you get it roughed out.Then see what it looks like.Darren

ya mean I can't use my table saw and my routertable?? aw MaN!! ya are gonna make me work for this one aint ya!!

Oh.. and by the way Rusty.... it's a 3HP tablesaw (LOL)

Naw... I done learned when it's time to pull the extension cords up and throw them in the shed!!

I'd work the stave down close to dimesions, wrap that knot up and forget it.

well....... I been STARIN' at it for the past two hours.... so I reckon I'm just gonna say, "OK, this end of the stave is this limb tip..(for now)..... that end of the stave is that limb tip..(for now).... grain goes this way, and so will Lance..." Gonna go with the flow on this one and see what starts to take shape.

Just make sure that the grain points at the tips, and not across them

Pilot 1: Man, that was the shortest runway I ever landed on!

Pilot 2: Yah, and by far the widest!

;o)

How far up on the limb is it? When you lay out the bow can you miss it? It doesn't look large but large enough so that I would work around it and leave it "proud" if I was making a bow from that stave. Geo

Jim, I said the same thing; a craftsman uses the best materials possible. I also like your "aesthetic snobbery". One should endeavor to appreciate the finer things, while still keeping their perspective.

By the way, if Yew is so soft and fragile, then why was it used in Medieval warfare? I can tell you that medieval warfare was MUCH more hard on a bow than carrying it through the woods on a hunting trip! Don't worry about the durability of yew. If it can survive the bloody mayhem of 20,000 people swinging three foot long swords, a tromp through the bush will be a piece of cake.

Jim. You may've misread my post. I said my yew bow pulled 45# at 28". It shot a 500 grain arrow at 155 FPS, or 110 plus weight. It was pulled EXACTLY 28" as observed by a bystander, and released smoothly by TWO "calibrated shooters (myself and Tim Baker). The average of at least three shots was what was recorded. I wish you'd been at MO last summer to participate in the tests. 90-some selfbows were tested with the same 500 grain arrow, by the same shooters, weight being measured on the same scale, over the same chronograph.

The best performing bow, under those conditions, was a Tim Baker bow that shot 117 FPS, plus weight.

If you're getting 185-200 FPS out of an unbacked straight-tipped selfbow, and your bows are shooting, say 120 FPS plus weight (better than the best at MO), then your 200 FPS bow is drawing in the 75-80 pound range. If also, you're shooting a 10 grain per pound arrow, you're shooting a 750-800 grain arrow. Are you really getting that, Jim?

HMMM. All I can say is that I WISH you'd come to MO this summer, and share your secrets. You're doing SOMETHING no-one else is.

Joe.

Now that I have re-registered AGAIN..hopefuly I might not be seen as some 'drive by' poster..:)..jim

Brad: I will be 66 fifteen years from now..My six year old wants me to take him down to get his driver's license at 16..and IF they don't again change the SSI laws, maybe I'll have him drive me by to pick up my first check.:) I shoot tapered birch and larch shafts that have a finished weight of between 650 and 730 grains, drawn 30," and shoot shafts spined at 90-95# on 26" AMO spine tester from most of my bows..My bows all are from 70-90#, some glass-wood laminate longbows and recurves of custom design and most self bows of yew and osage or dagame.I shoot with fingers, one over and two under, at the cornor of my jawbone and a typical arrow of 700 grains out of my glass laminated longbows or recurves shoots at about 205-215 fps over the chrono..The same arrows shot with a self yew or osage of 75# drawn 30" will come in at 190-200 fps..depending a bit on how cleanly I am shooting that day. My 'point on' is at about the equivalent yardage of the bow's draw weight, shot with my form and anchor..ie: a 75# longbow shot will have a point on at about 75 yards.. 500 grain arrows can be shot out of any of my bows at well over 210 fps..the glass laminate bows shooting such light shafts at well over that rate. For a hunter, the heavier shafts give a better return on energy IMHO and are sturdier as well..so I tend to the heavier, if somewhat slower shafts.My effective hunting range for elk is from 60 yards and in so there is little to be gained from using any flatter shooting shaft of lighter weight.. Hope that 'defines' somewhat my shooting and equipment for you..jim

An early Fetrow thread some precursor to whitewood/heartwood debates.

Wow, that thread is a blast from the past; just about every poster was someone I knew back in the day. Doesn't seem all that long ago either. Sigh. Good folks one and all, some have gone to their reward, some have dropped out, some are still with us. Thanks for finding and posting the thread. Gifford.

It's odd to see him say he'd be 66 15 years from those posts-that would have been 3 years ago when he had his problems...chilling.

When we make Native American replica bows most of them will be d shaped bend through handle design.Some were made as short as 36" and as long as 70" depending on the region ,and what Native tribe.That design still works great today.My preference for a selfbow bow is a 60 to 62 " Pyramid style bow with stiff handle, and deeply cut arrow rest.One and 3 eighth,s wide at the fades to half inch at the tips if it Osage.One and 3 quarters to 2 and one quarter wide at the fades for different white woods tapering to half inch at the tips.My favorite wood is Osage,but i have made some very good bows from white woods such as Elm and Black Walnut,and hickory board bows as well as hickory stave bows.My bows will hit 100 plus draw weight at 10 grs per pound.45 lb bow 450 gr arrow 145 fps. give or take a little.My best was 6 fps over.I hunt 15 yds ,and in and it works fine for me as a hunting weapon.Good building,hunting, and shooting to all above,

ttt for Jim in Oregon its a good read

There is a ton of great reading back in the archives under Jim in Oregon's handle

Blast from the past. Thx!

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