What happened to spring anyway? LOL

Went back to my job 3 weeks ago by the time I get home the shop is an inferno some days over 100+ so it has slowed down the building of this first prototype. I'm doing some things I've never done to a bow. I'm running a 27" power lam. I had it at 30" and cut it down. Will also be running "laminated" tip overlays as a substitute for tip wedges. This limb started out life as a working limb. Changed the tapers with a tweak for an ILF limb. Have went back to working tapers but its a full blown static now with a very short working limb. Guess we will see what happens! LOL

I'm looking forward to seeing the string on that thing!

No more Changing Horses in the middle of the creek allowed!

Looks great so far

Now that's a pair of hooks! I'll send you some of this 55º air we have up in Maine, to cool your shop down enough so you can work in it.

Keep at it OB and stay Kool. JF

Interesting?

Ain't so much the hooks Crooked. Its where that throat is at to relationship to those hooks. The throat on this bow is just about where the back glass would be on the Phoenix! The "hooks" are farther.

Something I thought about the other day. My Dad always talked "full riser forward" and his later designs reflected that. I've always thought all these years it was to get the max out of the R/D of a bow. But after playing with bow design over the last couple of years. Have come to the conclusion its about getting as much mass weight as you could in the riser. Not so much to do with the R/D of a design. Gonna be interesting!

Definitely going to be interesting. I'll be waiting to see how it turns out!

What exactly is a Power Lamination?

It's also sometimes called a riser shim; it serves to extend the distance between fadeouts, and thus shortens the working part of the limb. You can see them on old bows made by Harry Drake, Harold Groves, and Lyle Shannon (SABO).

neat. I also did not know about power lams. thanks. looking forward to your completion!

Finished up the prep work this evening. Will glue her up ASAP

As crooked stated the power lam shortens the working length of the limb as will tip wedges or in the case of this bow tip overlays. The reason for laminating them is it takes some force to bend wood. If I just laminate a piece of wood on the tips it will open the tips up a tad a may not offer as much resistance on the draw. So "my theory" is to laminate a couple thin veneers to the curve of the form. Now my overlay will be neutral but stiff and should offer a lot of resistance when drawn. Making the bow a true static

This gets more and more interesting!

Yes, it will be fun to see how she comes off the forms...and then to see what kind of a force-draw curve Todd can coax out of it. I'm considering building a scale model of a French castle to set up about 225 yards downrange in the Field of Glory...this bow might actually be capable of reaching it!

French castle?

Cry God for Harry and Saint George!

Yes, I'm tired of their taunting me about my bows that can only shoot two hundred yards. With Todd's newest design I think I can silence them once and for all.

Hey good to see the name Lyle Shannon and the Sabo. I have a Sabo Pac King, with the wedges being talked about. Weren't those early bow maker remarkable!!!

Well lets not go counting our chickens before the feathers fly LOL

Shop was a pleasant 73 degrees this morning, The Orion 1 is now curing in the hot box. Layup looks good but you just never know till the banding comes off.

Working on idea for something like longcruise is doing but with my own twist on using air hoses. LOL Will play with that idea later.

Hope to get y'all some pics this afternoon

Wanna see the improvements. Always looking for a way to do better.

Well heres the jest of it. Why not take a piece of plywood or a 3/4" board. Rip the width you need and "kerf" it down to about 1/16th" say every inch or less on a tight radius. Then laminate a piece of 1/4" rubber to the non-kerf side. My thinking is it should follow any contour and would be some what like the clamping method of Black Widows. If they still use their old method anyway

Well here we go. Fresh out of the forms with after birth. LOL get it cleaned up tomorrow. See what it looks like back in the form. Want to know how tight every thing stayed....or not

I like that idea!

How much forward taper do you have in your limbs? I know you prefer quite a bit. Looking forward to the next steps.

Hard to see ut clearly serious hooks.

This may be the real deal! Can't wait to hear what kind of force-draw curve you get from it.

By the way I shot your Phoenix against my 1962 Howatt Hunter the other morning. They were generating almost identical cast-per-pound numbers; too close to call a winner between the two. The Phoenix was sending 2117's over 220 yards on the Field of Glory.

Running 004/1 total taper in this one. If my math is right (seldom) when I add the tip overlays it will be as if I ran an 003/1 total taper. Your bow tips are the worst place to add anything. Period. But if the calculations are right the tips of the bow will still be thinner than if I ran an 002/1 total taper. The overlays should also make it a true static with "working tapers".

On the Phoenix II I ended up with an 001/1 total taper to tame the limbs. Far as I'm concerned she's a broom stick. She's been holding her own though but it lost a lot of speed from the Phoenix I.

But the real beauty of this is. Its still all square. be easy to cut the limbs off for another try! LMAO

Here's how the old Phoenix I prototype (top) compares to the Orion's profile (bottom).

Tip overlays being glued up. Bow is cleaned up and cut to length. Will see how much of the tip profile was lost coming out of the forms and whether or not I get it back with the tip overlays.

Lot of difference in the two. Gonna be interesting.

:-) JF

WOW, That thing looks pretty stout. What poundage are you shooting for? John

Looking for 45# or so at 28" to make 50# or so at 30". That's the range I need then I'll send it to crookedstix if all is well and we will see if he can hit his French castle with it LOL

Here's another fun comparison to Todd's Orion: a Bob Lee Thunderbolt, which some people on here have called the best one-piece recurve ever made. I'm not sure how many different lengths it came in--this one was a shirty, around 56"; but I think they also made it in 60" and 62". Supposedly it was blazing fast...and the geometry between the two looks similar. However, I think the Orion has an extra trick or two up its sleeve.

Well the Bible say's "there is nothing new under the sun". I've never seen one of those but that sure is a lot of hook for a "shirty" LMAO

The Bible? I thought it was George Stout who said that!

Those Thunderbolts were made back in the 90's I believe.

Did not think George was that old!

Not much to report. Bow flexed a little more than I'd liked. They sent flat grain cores not sure if that would have made a difference or not. My tip overlays not as stiff as I'd like either. need to be thicker......carbon would have been nice though! I'm going to saw the limbs out, put some nock overlays on and string her up. Just see what the tips do. probably pull a DFC while I'm at it. Make a final judgment call after that on the tip overlays

Been a long week with other things to do. But we will find out tomorrow if this bow is a bomb or a bust.

Limbs sawn out and overlays on. Will let the glue cure tonight I don't put the bows back in the hot box after they are laid up anymore. Glue cures just fine with out heat just takes longer. Have also beefed up the tip overlays another 20 thousandths so they are 60 thousandths total now

I've been using super glue on tip overlays with no problems.

Don't care much for super glue.

Ha! Betcha can't wait to scratch in a coupla nocks and pull a force-draw curve on this one. Now is the time to strike a deal with Satan, if you'd like to trade your soul for something like 125% storage at 30 inches. I urge you to consider such a transaction; this bow might be your lasting claim to fame!

Well I don't think I need to go making any deals with the devil. I'm enough trouble as it is. But we will know tomorrow regardless. Most of my fastest bows are knocking the door at 100%@28" and over at 30". If she breaks a 100%@28. Gonna be interesting.

Checked her limb to the T/D down its modeled after. It's tighter in the tip radius just as I wanted.

Am I the only one that's hearing that whispering bow? It goes something like this, over and over again- String me!....String me!....String me!.......and watch me blow every draw curve out there to pieces!!!!

Soon enough. Need to finish my coffee. Not a bad force curve on a longbow. Did you do the calculations on what its storing?

That's right off the Centuar website. Morrison, Black Swan and Caribow do a good job of posting draw curves. They must sell bows to some degree?

Personally for hunting, I like a bow that's a little soft on the back end. Not so much interested in the speed over 180 FPS when the lack of penetration on thick skinned, hard to kill game can be corrected my adding some draw weight, and using the best penetrating arrow combo. I figure any bow that will shoot a 28" long 10GPP hunting arrow 180 FPS nicely is as good as it ever needs to be. Just my opinion!

Here's another personal opinion, since I'm on a roll: Documented Bow draw curve data that is not published by the manufacturer of a given bow is basically "heresay" and needs to be taken for what it is. Any top notch bowyer that posts draw curve data on his website should sell me a bow with a guarantee stating that his test is verifiable, and the bow he sells me will produce the same draw curve data.

https://cari-bow.com/draw-force-curves/

https://www.morrisonarchery.com/draw-curve-data

https://www.morrisonarchery.com/draw-curve-data

http://blackswanarchery.com/#/home

"I figure any bow that will shoot a 28" long 10GPP hunting arrow 180 FPS nicely is as good as it ever needs to be. Just my opinion!"

Thanks, I now feel assured that my 35# ASL flinging a 350 grain arrow is perfectly adequate for elk. 8>)

Be careful Longcruise, you might have forgot to quote my 2 favorite portions of my post: "Not so much interested in the speed over 180 FPS when the lack of penetration on thick skinned, hard to kill game can be corrected my adding some draw weight" and "Just my opinion!"

This old Jean Louthan 62" bow draws 62# at my 30" draw and will shoot a 28" 620 grain arrow 180# with my finger release. The pictured 650 grain arrow was a skinny carbon with a grizzly 190. The pig was dead at 60 yards, but as you can see, penetration was not what I would have liked. Here's another "personal opinion" that I constanly scold myself with: "Don't shoot an animal with underpowered gear!"

Grabbing another cup of Joe. One string groove left!

Sorry for that upside down picture

Also, the 180# should have said 180FPS

Frisky is going through a tough time right now or he would be here to tell you what for crap you are spouting. :) I hope he is doing okay. Keep us informed there Todd.

Oh I'm sure he will come around sooner or later.

Kerry may need to move his castle back a little farther. She strung up straight as an arrow with out all the string groove work yet. Very little rock!!! Now the bad news. 70#@30". Letting the string stretch out before pulling my DFC to get the right brace height. But was looking at some interesting numbers getting a preliminary weight of the bow.

Dang George, I'm sure Frisky is very confident that you are holding down his fort, and so am I.

Oldbowyer, That sounds like a heck of a pig killing tool!

I don't have the pucker to pull that one Todd. :)

Pigs??? This one could be a Drake KILLER!!

I'm not going to get into this argument again on how a bow can store more poundage than its drawing. Its "foot pounds" of energy And I'm more than pleased, this bow has hit my other goal. That's breaking 100%@28". I done some playing with the Phoenix and was hitting 104%@28" This bow was also built along those tests. She hits the wall trying to brace it.

So here's the numbers (will be more than happy to send the whole DFC to anyone who wants it) 64.20#@28" Storing 64.97 ftlbs for 101% storage. 70.02#@30" Storing 76.11#@30 for 108% storage

Since I'm going to knock the limbs off anyway. I'm going to narrow the bow down some and put the tip overlays on. See just what it changes. But all in all I'm very happy with the way this bow has turned out. I was afraid with the brace tension that it would flop back and forth but it doesn't. Here are the brace pictures and drawn to 28 and 30"

Very impressive, just hope Crooked doesn't wind up with a crooked rotator cup to go along with his stick after shooting that thing at his castle. I'd be more than willing to attempt a live action penetration test with it on a big boar hog.

Well it would be a shame to knock those limbs off before its shot. But its WAY more than I can handle (can barley string it) and unfortunately its to heavy for the Field of Glory. But I imagine that the ghost of Drake is starting to quiver in fear of this one!

I think I can hear Frisky sreaming accusations that point toward some form of tomfoolery, but I'm not going to say exactly what I'm hearing. It's way to raw and inappropriate for forum use.

That's funny I don't hear a peep.

Tip overlays are on. I doubt if they will do much other than add extra weight to the tips but we will see. Work the limbs down to something I can manage a little better. Damn near did not get it stung up for the DFC.

No Frenchman is safe now!

If you work those limbs down a bit I'll be happy to see how it shoots. One way or another we have to test it before you cut it up, whether it's me or someone else who does the shooting.

I used to have a Groves that was rated around 57#, but when I drew it to 30" it stacked all the way up to 70#...so it's not exactly uncharted territory for me. Pdiddly or Rick Barbee would have no trouble pulling it either.

That's great that you got that kind of energy storage from this design...I foresee that you will be building a bunch more bows off this form; just not quite as heavy. How will you change the layup to bring it in as a 45# @ 28" bow?

Good question Crooked. The stack on this one was based on a 60" I built for a young man last year. It came out a little over 50#@30". I figured adding another couple of inches would have dropped the poundage in this one. Its obvious that the power lam really added some "power"! Thinking dropping it 30 thousands more from .300 to .270. Might put it in the ball bark. Just not sure if I will have to make the tapers or not. Rather not.

I'm not sure how this will show up. I'm not smart enough to do some of this computer crap that you fellows can. One shot is the numbers from the DFC calculator. The other one is the actual curve.

This is at 28"

I cant see the poundage and draw length on that graph. Can you post a list that shows the 1" poundage increments from brace to 30"?

Todd, I think you better recruit Loubeck to do the testing on this one! After the battle with Lyme this past winter I'm a shadow of my former crooked self in the face of a 70# bow. If you play your cards right you might get a side of California bacon out of this bow from Lou.

I'm already scheming about what the next bow off this form should look like...maybe bird's eye maple with a cocobolo I-beam, and some of that old Howatt glass from your dad's stash...in turquoise, of course.

Im not much of a tester as far as the technical part goes but am often amazed at how hard the big hogs are to kill. As for bacon, wild ones don't really have it. The smaller ones are the best tasting.

Ain't got no turquois glass and I don't think Howatt would have been caught dead making such an off color for glass! How about a Peirce Point?

Lou I pull in 2" increments. Saves a bunch of typing and it does not make any difference in the final numbers. But I'll be happy to post those for you tomorrow. getting late need to eat and go to bed so I can get to work tomorrow

OK looks like its about time to wrap this one up. Here is a shot of the tip overlays. Vermilion and Maple. Not sure if they will do anything but will look nice finished. I've decided to finish the bow. Seems to have generated some interest from a former WTT fellow that I need to send the bow to California for a flight shoot contest. But I'm thinking if I'm going to do that needs some different material. Like some carbon. But that stuff is like showing the cross to Dracula for anything that Crooked wants to put on the Field of Honor. In any event I'll figure something out to do with it. It'd be a damn shame to knock those limbs off before we can find out just what this bow can do. Seen and studied a lot of DFC's I've not seen one like this. Could be a real piece of crap to shoot. LOL

Lou here is the full numbers to 30" along with the curve. IMHO she's done at 30. The math its 2.2 ppi from 24 to 26. 2.61 ppi from 26 to 28. And 2.91 ppi from 28 to 30. She's starting to pile but its still some good numbers

I've got a lot to do in the next couple of weeks or so. have this bright idea to start growing gourmet mushrooms for the farmers market. I have several cultures to get started or I'm going to run out of farmers market this year. Would like to retire from the rat race in Feb. But I need to retire to something to do. Other than drinking beer LOL. I'll piddle with the bow and get some finished pictures as soon as I can. Then I'll figure out what to do with this beast LOL

Good info. Bows over 60# that draw less than 3 pounds per inch during the last five inches of the cycle are sweet "just another personal opinion.

Is that really braced at 9.25 inches?? That seems high...must be because of the deflex?

You should definitely finish it off; I bet the draw weight could be brought down quite a bit. I have a few bows here that pull close to 60# at 30"; we might find a fair test for it. Or maybe you'll find a volunteer with enough hair on his chest to shoot it just the way it is.

I've got all kinds of good ideas about what to do; I'll send you a PM...or better yet an email; security is better that way, and this design should be classified material from now on.

Especially for us 30" plus draw guys

Its braced at 7.5" from the throat. On the poundage scale it came out at 9.25.

So who is the gorilla?

Beautiful bow and perfect draw weight.

Man did that pile of junk miss weight! HAHA!! You'd think Skookum made it! Poor Crookedstix will never pull this one to full draw!

Joe

Well Damn Frisky what do you think you would happen on the first one. You rarely hit poundage and I did not have a clue how much a power lam might add. Those tips may add even more draw weight but I'm not going to try and string this thing again till I have knocked some poundage off of it

With this bow I could become the first person ever to kill an elk in Durango with a shot launched from Telluride! But Frisky is wrong to doubt my righteous might when there's a bow to be tested. I think I can, I think I can...

The Phoenix II came off the forms a bit heavy, but Todd put it on a diet and got it down where it needed to be. Same with this one, I bet.

Ooooop, dere he is. :)

Mmmm...62# @ 27"!! VERY nice!!

I think it might be time for you to start thinking about the "Extra- galactic" why not go big and knock those arrows clean out of our galaxy!

Well it is with great sadness and all humility but the Orion I gave up the ghost last night. Seems my choice in riser woods was a "bad idea". The piece of Zebra I used had alot of run out in the grain. Was showing it to my cousin last night and I gave it a half draw and she snapped in two. Shearing off threw the throat of the bow. If I'd not made that cut out in the grip and ran the glass all the way threw the back it'd been fine. But the bow also was way out of tiller. Upper limb was an inch heavy and I'm not sure if it would balanced out any way.

Sooo gather some more material, drop the stack down this time. Hopefully it won't take a gorilla to shoot the next one LOL

Sorry to hear of the demise. I beam?

Thinkin more like the new dymondwood

Yeah, that would be just as good and require less fussing.

Well since I get to build another one anyway. See if I can't set something up with the air hose. Gettin old and lazy and figure I can hold a beer while putting pressure to an air hose. Can't do that strechin inner tube banding LMAO!

It's important to remember that this is just a prototype, after all. Who cares what the riser looks like; it's the limbs and the tips that count! Hopefully they'll send you some nice edge grain maple for the core lams this time...and you'll probably skip the whole tip wedge business, I'm guessing? Any way, just remember that there's three stars in Orion's belt--number 1 is behind you now, number 2 will work out the rest of the bugs, and number 3 will probably be the best recurve ever made...so you can send it to me.

Well if its the best recurve ever made maybe I should keep it!

If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here