For a number of years, Blackie Schwartz every month in Traditional Bowhunter Magazine tested bows drawn to 28" with 9 to 1 arrows. Bows were chronographed shot with fingers and a mechanical release which consistently showed a 5 fps advantage. Very, very few ever went over 190 fps even with the mechanical release and none to my memory ever hit 200 fps. I guess there could be faster chronographs though.
I might bet a beer against it, but not much more. That's just under 9 gpp. SR's are just a different animal. For one draw length is not as critical. Difference on a Hex 7.5 in poundage between 27 and 28 inches is less than a half pound. A convention bow is 2.5 pounds. I mention this because my draw is 29, so below is slanted, but not a lot.
Go get a conventional bow and tell me what speed you get at 15 grains per pound. I have a 35 pound Hex 8 that gets 174 fps with a 525 grain arrow. Actually, go get a 35 pound convention bow and get 174 fps, I'm betting the arrow weight is going to be waaaaay under 350 grains. In fact, I'll bet (a beer) that it will be light enough to stress the limbs.
This summer I want to see what it will do at 10 grains per pound. I know it won't hit 216 fps. 200 fps? I doubt it, but I'm droppeing 175 grains?????????????????
"I have a 35 pound Hex 8 that gets 174 fps with a 525 grain arrow. Actually, go get a 35 pound convention bow and get 174 fps, I'm betting the arrow weight is going to be waaaaay under 350 grains. In fact, I'll bet (a beer) that it will be light enough to stress the limbs."
A Samick Sage is shooting a 8.5 gpp arrow at 174fps all day long. WFL #54@28" shooting 495gr arrow (+9gpp) - 183 fps averages using the Ex BF (conventional limbs) 8.5 or 9gpp is not stressing the limbs to nobody. My HEX 6.5 are shooting a 9.4 gpp at 182 average from 15 arrows - that's long limbs on 17" riser. When I shoot without a stop at the anchor - continuous pull or snap shooting - I get 188 fps averages but it is not how I shoot. I would take the speed posted just as it is "speed someone gets based on his shooting".
Whittler, I think the golden mark is 200 FPS at 28 inches and 10 GPP. Don't know that there's any out there that I've seen. Pretty sure Blacky was doing his tests before SR's or at least the current generation.
At 9 gpp 464 is a very shootable arrow. I don't think I'd do it at 35 pounds, because I think I can get more foot/pounds with a heavier arrow.
Most wood bows are not warrenteed below 8. Don't know of any IFL bows that aren't. At 7 gpp, that's a 364 grain arrow?????? Where did that come from? I'm now bet a beer that he could beat 216 at 7 gpp.
These new sr's to me look to be using the same principal as compounds only without wheels. With a compound ur speed comes from an offset axel making the wheel move past letoff then give a quick flip to get speed. The sr's are bent so far that you're not bending the ends but are pulling straight back against the, then at a point the ends get far enough they flip/beak over lowering the weight your pulling. When you release the limb moves slightly then the end flip the arrow out like a compound would. Those ends are working like wheels without using mechanical parts. So yeah i'd buy getting well over 200 fps as long as the limbs built for your draw length.
Border will not warranty their limbs if you shoot an arrow that is not atleast 8gpp. No recurve or longbow that I know of is safe with an arrow less than 8gpp and I wouldn't feel safe doing it.
I dunno. I don't own any, but have shot a few owned by friends. They draw extremely smoothly, but I didn't really notice any super fast speed. I used the same arrows I always do, about 11-12 gpp on the bows I shot. Couldn't say that they were any faster than my Bear TD. Probably are, but not enough so I could see/feel it.
You talk again out of your ... If you read Traditional Bowyers of America by Dan Bertalan the longbows tested there are with 7 gpp and below. If you don't consider the longbow a wood bow, you are right.
Lots of bows are warranted below 8grs. per pound. Craig Ekin told me his bows were fine at 6 and 7, Harold Groves always said 6. Hoyt effectively doesn't much care.
Only bow I could find that shot over 200fps in Blacky Schwarz's tests is an ACS bow from A&H Archery. It was done with 9gpp arrows using a mechanical release. Fingers were about 5fps slower. ACS design was also highlighted in the Ashby penetration reports. As I recall, Dr. Ashby found a 55# ACS bow outperformed other longbows with 15# higher draw weights.
I suspect a well designed static tip or super curve could be even faster. But at the end of the day, I shoot an ACS bow from A&H Archery because it's stable and shoots the line very easily with a range of arrow weights.
The 'thing' about SR's isn't speed - although they are fast enough - it's the smoothness or lack of 'stack' as you approach full draw. (Without going to a longer-than-necessary limb.)
Going back to a 'stacky' bow after shooting a SR is eye-opening.
I have hex6 and bf extremes. Hex6s are some of the best limbs I have shot and like for like the hexs out perform the other. Using the same hold at distance the bf will start hitting dirt first.I own both..still
"Going back to a 'stacky' bow after shooting a SR is eye-opening. "
Going back a few generations can be eye-opening. I have a set of 40# HEX 5 on a 25" matrix riser. Always seemed really smooth to me. I recently got a 19" Tempest riser and a set of 40# HEX 8 limbs. The HEX 5 set now seems "stacky" compared to the HEX 8 limbs. HEX 5 are long and the HEX 8 are xl.
I am quite taken with the SR design; but, I am not getting rid of my "normal" recurves or longbows either. A lot comes down to preference. If I had to choose which draw force curve I prefer, it would be the SR. Heavier at first and then reduced gain. It reminds me of my Saluki as the siyahs give that bow a different draw force feel. The Saluki in my experince is not very forgiving of form errors. The Tempest/HEX 8 combo is not nearly as unforgiving.
If a bow can't handle 7gpp I don't want thank u Whittier cause my Titan longbow limbs can handle 5gpp I shoot 8 gpp out of it and I can corno. 216-221 out of it at 60lbs at my 28"draw and I did it Lancaster archery with lots of witness
That 52 pound super curve with 464 grain arrows is mine. And yes, speeds are true. Sorry you can't grasp those numbers, the guys at the archety shop last August couldn't believe it at first either. And when I shoot 420 grain VAP's through it, bare shaft tuned, no one could believe those speeds either.
Sid has helped me tune my border limbs, explaining how too much string wrap robs performance, explaining why deflexed risers are needed for super curves. I run a 14 strand string from Rogue custom strings, and use a 6 1/2" brace height. My Stalker ilf limbs are 15 fps slower then my Borders at the same draw weight. I draw 29 1/2" and shoot a 30 1/4" arrow with 16% foc.
As far as noise, three mule deer and a black bear died from the super curves last fall, from 12 yards to 32 yards, and not one reacted to the string bring dumped.
I'll throw a dog in this. Mind you, I had a longbow, not a super recurve, it measured 60# @ 28" I draw 29.5 ish. I shot GT trads 200 gr brd heads. arrow weight was a touch over 10.5 gpp. Had a buddy over to the house, he was showing a lot of interest in trad bows, so ofcoarse i had invited him over to shoot a few I had. Coming from compounds his first question was "how fast?" so I pulled out the chrony. Consistantly shot low 190'S. Honestly I had no clue it was shooting that fast. Never would have laid money on it, that's for sure. but sure enough. even put a new battery in it just to make sure it wasn't getting bad readings. That was just action boo and glass. Me an my dog are going to the house now, ya'll have have fun.
215fps fingers vs 210fps mech release is not apple with apples. When the average difference between top limbs is 1-2 fps the Galaxy Gold are where they need to be: medium entry level with around 10fps when shot with fingers compared with a top limb like SR.
PS Interesting speed battle between Gold Star and Veracity - just 2-3 fps difference for the same gpp arrow when using same type of release. Compared with above where the difference is in the 10fps area tells you why you pay for Borders more. But it doesn’t say why you pay the same for Veracity though.
Well, at least I know better than to argue with a guy who has Chrono’d his own bow and trusts his readings.
I’m just fairly certain that I will never crack 200 FPS at my DL and 8-9 GPP; it’s not that my DL is all that short, but having seen test after test by Blacky and nothing ever appreciably faster than a buck ninety...
I guess I’m just suffering from a failure of imagination.
Fastest I ever got was 191 fps with 9.5 gpp. This was a Dryad recurve with ACS, 46 lb at my 30" draw, 435gr arrow. It was the skinny string that Dryad gives with the bow (Fury I think), and I had wool puffs on it. Finger release. With a 455gr arrow (9.9gpp), I was getting 185 fps. Bear in mind, this bow is easily my fastest bow. But I'm pretty happy with 165-175 fps range with a 550gr arrow, seems to work.
K cumming My Morrison with Max 6 is close to the numbers you posted 49# 547 grain arrow 179fps with a finger tab. And my release is not very fluid More static than fluid. Usually about 10 FPS faster than my other bows that are considered fast. These numbers are from a quality Doppler crono
I think the the Max 6 limbs are amazing. But I’m not a fan boy of SR limbs. I shoot my self bows, LBs, hybrids all in the same day. Love them all Last weekend, I shot the Morrison, Whippenstick, Bear grizzly, Jeffery Longhunter All in the same session.
TradLab did a couple of tests. https://www.thetradlab.com/morrison-max-6 Morrison Max 6 hit 202 fps at 9 gpp
The Border Hex 8 and 9 will be a bit faster than these. I have Max 6 and Border Hex 7.5 (but in Covert Hunter). I equate the Max 6 to to a Border Hex 7.5 in draw force and speed.
The ILF system is a great but they do not give the speed of the bolt-down Covert Hunter. So I suspect that the statement quoted was referencing a Border Covert Hunter. And if so, I don't doubt it for that bow.
I got the intent of your post. And I agree. Most quality Recurves are plenty fast enough. Especially for the price difference. And i still love them. Where the SRs shine really isn’t that they are fast. In my beautiful wood ILF riser. It’s how tunable, quiet, and the crazy smooth draw to anchor.
The fastest non-SR I ever shot was a Balistik. It was 64 at 30 and that's what I drew at the time. I shot a 2219 that was 31 inches with a swedged point and a 125 grain head. Don't know what it weighted. I shot a couple of strings (usually 5 shots) that ave 202. Big deal, the arrow didn't weigh 10 GPP and my power stroke was pretty long. Pretty darned fast, but obviously not capable of 200 at 10 gpp.
If I'm not mistaken that bow had carbon and a veneer over the carbon, which is not done now. You can get an arrow to shoot any speed you want (oh yea this is the LW I better say, 'within reason'), it just might not be too good for the bow. I shot a light target arrow out of that bow by mistake and we talked about how fast it was. So I shot it again through a chrony and got 248. I know that doesn't mean anything if you don't know: bow weight, arrow weight and draw length. The limb eventually broke. I always wondered if it was because of those two shots.
One think I don't understand is not wanting a bow if it's not waranteed for 7 gpp? If your 7 gpp bow shot 200 and I gave you a bow at the same weight that was waranteed at 8 and it shot 10 gpp at 200 or shot 220 at 8 gpp, you wouldn't want it? Leave other factors out, only performance is the judge.
I ask that question, because I don't think I ever hunted with a bow below 9 gpp. And my last long bow, which I'd still be shooting today if I could, zoomed through the chrony at a whapping 155.
I have a Tamerland at 35 and my Hex 8's are 35 pounds. If I have time I'll run them through the chronograph this after noon. I have an arrow that weights 355 gpp so pretty close to 10 gpp. The problem is the arrow will be tuned for the Tamerlane and not tuned for the Hexes. That will cost some energy.
One of the parameters to look at regardless of the design of a bow is how many fps. that bow generates per inch of draw length, and per lb. of draw weight.
I was looking at Morrision bows. they got me in contact with client in my area. The guy is nucluar phiciast. Tosay the least his shop was set up with all the toys. HIs bow a morrision shooting 53LBs at 28. The arrow was a GT 625 grns. The crono was saying 185 fs and quite. Essentially a SR gives about 10lbs more performance at a lesser weight.
That’s close to my numbers. 49# @ 28” my crappy static release 547 grain arrow 179fps I agree it adds about 10# of performance compared to most high performance bows. Without stacking
That is fast. I have max6s. I was shooting with a couple guys at the club. The one was shooting a bob Lee of close weight to mine. I had him fire his arrows out of my bow and he hit very high on the target with a couple shots. He was surprised. I expected it.
I just got these and been working a lot so Haven't dialed in an arrow yet but I think I'll be running them for a spell.
at 10 gpp i honestly dont even care about the actual speed, so long as it puts an arrow exactly where I want it and has that right feel to it. Mind you, it is kinda fun to see the numbers on the screen, but in the long run, really dont mean much to me.
Jinkster - I couldn't send a PM to tell you. The video was way too large to the point that it stretches the frame too much. Most times your videos are smaller but for some reason this one was not.
Knuckleball...thanks...cause they show up fine with no oversize issues on my end as well but apparently something isn't working out for the devices of others.
Thanks KPC and as I recall?.....the last time this was an issue it seemed the complaints were mostly coming from those using mobile devices like smartphones & Ipads.
Not buying it. The only bow that might reach that speed is a super curve. I would question the accuracy of the chronograph if the numbers are accurate.
The problem is not that the video was not working. The video shows up here and plays just fine.
The problem is that it is about 4 times larger than it needs to be to post here. Not all of Jinkster's videos are that large but this one was. What happens is it is so large that it changes the display of this forum. There is a built in check that catches many oversize photos but not for oversize videos.
So far as pure speed the Super curves represent the Law of Diminishing Returns. The extra % in speed do not match the extra cost. And this is coming from a guy that ONLY shoots the expensive Super Curves.
To me, the flat, or nearly flat, draw force curve at full draw is also a big factor in my decision to shoot such bows.
I am spoiled by such limbs and if I try something else I am disappointed by the lower impact and the feel of the draw.
I have spoken with Bill Jinks and he is a great guy who knows his bows.
My launcher is an A&H ACS, 500gr arrow, 51 lbs at my draw length. Arrow clocked at 198-200 ft/sec. I've played with a few fast bows but haven't seen anything like this one.
I make my own 12 strand fast flight strings with padding on the loops to help with noise.
Maybe it's just me, but, I think attaining "Certified" Data should not be an issue. Any bowyer, IMO, should be willing and able to provide any prospective customer with solid data of their product. Now mind you, with various makers that offer several riser and limb lengths, having that many combinations, each one is going to give slightly different results even with DL and arrow weight being the same. Anyhow, Ya'll enjoy
ALSO to add to my first post in this thread, A DISCLAIMER!!
When using a chronograph, atleast the ones I have experience with,the blue collar models(less $$$) Your lighting and even wind conditions can affect your readings. How much?? I can't answer that. So! with the readings I got that day, If I was shooting indoors with neon lights, or whatever, my readings could've been more accurate, or less accurate.
A side note. If the bowyer I had purchased that bow from had told me he got the chrony readings that got that day. I would not have purchased that bow, because I would have felt he was talking up his product to make a sale. Unless of coarse he was able to provide video proof.
I was reading where Earl Hoyt is the one that realized decades ago that the heavy wood limb cores added little to the power stroke and only served as a strong bonding surface for the fiberglass. So he started the foam limb core idea. The foam wasn’t the best quality and he of course didn’t have the quality cross weave carbon fiber available now That allows these limbs to function without twist. Man Earl was way ahead of his time.
We only use a chronograph inside at the archety shop. And we shoot through it 20 yards away sometimes just to see how much arrow speed and momentum we loose at 20 yards. If you're not good at shooting 20 yards, I don't recommend this!!
Someone posted that if you shoot light arrows from a set of a Border limbs, you only do it once... why? I'm shooting Victory VAP's from it now, 410 grains with 18% foc, at arrow speeds over 220 fps, with no issues to the limbs, from a 51# bow. Super curves are not very forgiving, cause bow speed magnifies issues in form or release. If you've got terrible form, bad release, or have issues tuning, arrow speed will show all these. That's why a lot of guys shoot heavier arrows, yo slow the bow down a bit and make their set up more forgiving. Has nothing to do with risers, nothing, like fdp said. The trick with super curves is shooting a medium weight arrow at good arrow speed to give you unreal momentum. With super curves, you don't need a 650 grain arrow with 25% foc from light poundage bows to have high momentum.
Sid was a huge part in explaining about tuning super curves and limb alignment, and getting performance from the limbs.
I had the diffusers set-up that day. Anyhow, IMO, I think people give Sid WAAAAAAY to much credit. I've only talked to the man once, maybe he was having a bad day, dunno. I do know, I will not purchase any of his products new or used, Period.
Hutch, my post about the diffusers was in regards to Jason D's post and pic. There are no diffusers installed on the chrono. No diffusers and a pretty big number make me wonder.
