I have a 40# Bear Kodiak Magnum and a 40# @ 29" Omega Native on order. I'm setting up arrows for the Bear right now. I have 250 grain points and 100 grain brass inserts. I can live with or without the inserts, but would prefer to keep them. The tip weight is non-negotiable.

What I would like to know, ballpark obviously, is where can I start my spine testing. I see people shooting .500 and .600 spine arrows out of 40# bows. That seems very weak for my tip weight. Thoughts?

I don't even know where to go with that. I'm currently shooting 36# limbs on a Sage type riser, my arrows are 28 and I'm playing with 500's that I won here on the LW. I've found that with those, I only need 200 grains up front with a standard aluminum insert...whatever that weighs. I'm using 3" shield feathers and getting perfect flight using a tab, and a Hoyt Super Rest (stick- on plastic). According to data nowadays, that should be too stiff on a bow that is cut at center...not past. That gives me approximately 460 grains +/- which is plenty heavy for my purposes at 12.8 gpp. My guess is a 400 at 30" but I'm far from expert on carbon for sure.

i would start with .350 and maybe expect to go a bit stiffer

Hutch

Normally a .600 would be great for 40#, with that much weight I’d jump to .400 as a starting point . Maybe order a test kit . You can use it in the future for other bows as well.

I'd start with a full length 400 and 350. Get a few test shafts before committing to a dozen. Good luck. If the 400 is slightly weak build out the arrow pass until you get good flight.

Thanks everyone. I think I will go with a test pack of .340, .400, and .500 and just go from there.

@Pa Steve when you say pass, do you mean the fletch?

My instincts tell me a full length .400 will be weak and I will be able to cut it down until it is very slightly weak then fletch the arrow.

I'm referring to the arrow plate on the riser of the bow.

I'd do as Pa Steve suggested. An arrow that's too weak leaves you several options to bring it online. A too stiff arrow not so much.

Stu sez....

If you want a 29” arrow, you should be pretty close with a .400 and the 250 grain points out of the Bear. If you want to 30 inch arrow, a .340 will be stiff unless you add some insert weight, but the 100 gr will be overkill... but if you take it up to a 31” arrow, you’re back in business... assuming you have a 28” draw.

So, two things…

Number one is is that nobody can get you anywhere close unless they know what length arrow you want to end up with; Number two is that it would be awfully helpful to know how close to center (or how far past center) the Omega is cut. Also good to know what kind of a string you plan to use, how thick the strike plate you had in mind, etc.

Pretty much have to go down George’s whole lista guzintas and provide those to the best of your ability…

But I really have to wonder why you are so set on a 250 grain point if you’re only shooting 40 pounds in the first place.... if you’re willing to entertain nine GBP as optimal, you are now looking at being roughly 50% beyond that, which does not make for a really flat and useful trajectory for hunting purposes, and there’s absolutely no reason whatsoever to go overboard with weight on a target arrow.

But hey.... different strokes, I suppose...

I have a 36# bow that I'm shooting old 29-3/4 Easton Epic 500's with a 300 gr. point out of, regular alum. insert.

I've found using a 100 grain brass insert offsets itself by stiffening up almost two inches of shaft but adds mass and FOC. I think 500's just might work with it.

A useful trajectory is a personal thing and depends on your hunting style or imposed limits. I think lots of selfbow and stickbow shooters do just fine with 140 fps or more. Arrow weight is a lot more important when you're shooting 40 pounds.

Thanks everyone. Keep the information coming.

I think the 100 grain brass insert is something I could leave out but I’m pretty set on the 250 cutthroats.

So I draw 28.5”, the omega is supposed to be cut to center. Not sure how exact that is as I haven’t received the bow yet. The side plate I’ll have to play with.

Also, I’m not sure what arrow length I’ll end up with. I’m fine with anywhere between 29-31”. I figured I would find the right arrow length as I bareshaft tuned.

I make my own 12-16 stand bcy 8125g strings depending on poundage and nock size is my arrows and serving.

three rivers dynamic spin cal. 55/75 gt trad. 29.5" standard insert 250 gr. tip = 554 gr arrow 13.5 gpp and 22 foc. (kodiak mag. spin= 51) (arrow = 51)........and for 350 gr 75/95 trad. 30"..698 gr. 17gpp 23foc (arrow spin 51)

At your minimum arrow length of 29", you're looking at a 535 gr +/-arrow with that 250 fr, head, 13 gpp, with a 37 gr. aluminum insert. Even with super-recurve limbs, best case scenario is 125 fps. Might as well throw a spear , but whatever rocks your boat.

I think Stu said a buck sixty.

Not disastrous, but not a lot to work with beyond 20...

good side It should be Q

SextonJ, how the bow is cut (built by the bowyer) isn't the useable centershot measurement. The measurement that you ned is how the bow is set up to shoot.

If you are using a very thin piece of leather that measurement is likely close enough. You may be able to adjust with brace height. If you are using soemthing thick and fuzzy on the site window, it won't be. Every 1/16" change in centershot changes the spine requirement by about 1 spine group.

So, suggestions on setup then? 150 grain heads?

If I wanted to use the 250 I would.

If the comb comes in weak and you get it cut as short as you dare, then just add material to the sight window to bring the arrow on line. Then when you get the vertical impact like you want it, you can work on the string nock location.

Whatever I did though I would only buy one or two of a few different spines. Personally, I wouldbuy them the length I wnated them to be. Then just tune the bow to shoot them. But that's me.

Once you find out what works for that bow, then you can order a dozen or whatever. And, as an added benefit, you will have a test kit that you can use on any other bows you may want to set up. It's a long term investment that pays for itselfpretty quick.

150gr 30" 500 spin

I’ll give it a shot @bigdog21

all the choices I came up with where from the dynamic spin cal on three rivers site get on there and play around with the numbers and diffrent arrows.

Let’s back up, Josh....

What do you want to be able to do here?

These will be hunting bows. I wouldn’t be messing with high foc if I was trying to kill targets. My preference is to shoot lower poundage bows that I can shoot while maintaining good form and mechanics. I have shot heavy bows before and have zero interest in them. And I shot those when I was conditioned and in top shape.

Deer?

And what’s your DL?

JMO.... If you have a pretty normal DL, you should be able to put together a perfectly normal arrow and kill deer all day long; they’ve been making 100 grain broadheads for a long while because folks shooting lighter bows needed them. And they do seem to work. Wood, aluminum, fiberglass... even Carbons will do.

You can go low tech or high tech, but as long as you’re being smart enough to stay with a weight you can shoot well, build yourself an arrow of about 400 grains and go to it. Or should I say “go TUNE it”? ;)

We all just went through a big hoo-rah over whether #40 will kill a moose and while we fell well short of a consensus, there’s no doubt that it Can Be and Has Been done.

If you want to go nuts with FOC and a relatively heavy arrow, that’s fine, too; just don’t mistake Acceptable for Necessary.

But FWIW, I think you might be happier overall if you’d be willing to let go of those 250 grain heads. I’m having trouble enough convincing myself that I can come up with a fast enough arrow using 200 gr up front and shooting a bit over #60, so I just can’t imagine being willing to take that big a hit on the velocity side of the equation....

So 100% a Different Strokes kind o’ thing

We all have our biases, and there’s nothing wrong with that... as long as we remain willing to question them from time to time.

personally i would get a 2016 30"+ with 125 head and go kill somthing

@ bigdog21 why not shoot a GT Velocity .500 with my 250 grain cutthroat at 30"? Nearly the same arrow weight with a little higher foc?

way under spine... 150 gr would be the max tip wieght with a 500 at 30"

Never hurt to try it once.. twice if it works..

Ok, maybe a .400 GT velocity if I wanted to shoot the 250 heads. I’m mostly wanting to shoot them out of convenience. I have them already sort of thing.

It looks like they sell a 125 and 150 cutthroat as well.

Maybe my better plan of attack is getting a couple.400 and .500 arrows and running through some point weights and find an ideal setup.

@GF my dl is 28.5”

I really do appreciate all the input

And around here, you may even find someone willing to trade you what you need for what you’ve got.

I’m just trying to settle on a specific point weight for each bow before let go of a dozen perfectly good examples of exactly what I needed in the first place ;)

Carbon express makes piledriver's in 150 grain b.h.2blade.

Shawn's experience is very close to mine, I don't think you will have any trouble getting to where you wanted. With a long insert you may even get to keep the shaft longer.

12, 13, 14 gpp arrows do not turn your bow into a spear either. They do make it quiet and allow all the stored energy to be used in propelling the arrow.

Headed to the range right now to chrono the 36# with 570 gr. arrows. It's a rambo warf with Kaya limbs, no super bow by anyones standard. Any guesses on the 15.8 gpp arrow speed?

Glynn, please post your findings on arrow speed. I'm going to guess 148 fps. On tradlabs they tested a 35.4# @ 28" Omega and @ 11 gpi it was 161fps.

Thank you Shawn. Glad to hear somebody is getting good results with that setup.

That’s a sucker bet because you haven’t told us your draw length, net poundage at your draw, the type of string you’re shooting, and because of the importance of an individual person’s release... but the 145-155 range wouldn’t probably shock me. Then again, neither would 138; especially not if you typically get results consistent with Shawn’s, since he tends to think the calculator comes up about #10 too heavy, which corresponds to about 10 FPS slower than the estimate that’s built into the tool.

But just for the sake of argument, let’s assume the calculator’s velocity estimates are dead nuts. 150 feeps doesn’t seem ridiculously slow, necessarily... but it IS a very hefty reduction vs a buck ninety....

At 50 feet... who cares? 35 yards, likely a deal-breaker.

Well it wasn't a bet, just asked for guesses, and no surprises that everyone was close.

I draw right at 28 inches and weighed the bow there, 36 pounds. Shoot a 8125 mountain muffler string with a tab, three under. Rambo warf with the cheaper Kaya limbs. Arrow was an older Easton Epic 500, (uses the H nock) 29-3/4" with regular alum. insert and 300 gr. point. Three 2-1/2" parabolic feathers. 567-570 gr.

10 shots averaged 141 fps and they were all pretty close. 140.6 to 141.8

Next I shot it from 5 to 30 yards in 5 yard increments. 30 yards was my point on distance.

For a comparison I shoot my Field bow at 180 fps and have a 55 yard point on. Anchor on face, nock point height, limbs, arrow weight, lots of things affect point on distance. Mine always seems to be a bit longer than others so I shot the five yard increments to see if there was a place where the arrows "took a dive".

At each distance I shot at a dot and then measured to center of group to find the "gap at target" height for that distance.

5 yds.- 10 inch gap

10 yds.- 15 inch gap

15 yds.- 20 inch gap

20 yds.- 15 inch gap

25 yds.- 10 inch gap

30 yds.- point on

I gap off the top of the arrow if I'm paying attention to the gap which is usually only past 20 yds. Things are much smaller in that sight picture. Anyway, don't look much different than a lot of gaps that I have done this with.

That’s great.

Update. I shot 500’s and 400’s standard aluminum inserts and the 250 grain point. The 500’s were weak all the way down to 29” cut so I switched to 400 bareshaft. Started at 31” and cut after each weak arrow group. I finally got a ever so slightly weak at 29.5” throat of nock to end of insert. Fletched it up and it’s flying great. I do have very thick mole skin on the side plate, so I could probably shave off another 1/16” to 1/8” and put on a thinner side plate.

I do not see how I can shoot 500’s at this point weight. At least not a GT Hunter XT. Maybe I’m wrong or it doesn’t fly for me.

So I got you pretty close with Stu’s calculator...

Somehow, I’m not exactly shocked. You’d almost think the guy knew what he was doing! ;)

Yes you did.

However, I did fling a 340 I had laying around with the 100 grain brass insert. I think it was around the 29.5" mark and it was stiff with the 250 grain point. That is with a very thick side plate of the thick padded moleskin. Maybe I could make that work with a little longer arrow and a thinner side plate?

Thank you. I'm pretty impressed with this old bow. I think the 3 Rivers Archer calculator had me around 162 FPS. I can live with that for short hunting ranges. I think the Omega will shoot a little faster, maybe 170 fps hopefully.

I imagine the Kaya limbs down at 36# @ 28 just don't have the oomph that your Bear at 40# and 28.5" DL do.

Also I shot the bareshaft a bit more today and it was low under the group at 20 yards, about 4 inches. That could be giving me a false spine reading although the bareshaft seems to be flying good and sticking straight in. I just don't trust a bareshaft until it's the same height as the fletched, thought it was in the basement.

Anyway, sounds like you're on track to get to the specs you want. I have not had a 650 gr. arrow at 165 fps stay inside anything yet. My point on with that is 38 yards.

Sexton.....there are a number of ways to bring arrows to the line.

The 500's could have likely been made to shoot just as well as the 40's. All you had to do was bump out the side plate.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with the way you did it.

Just keep in mind that it isn't the only way. If an arow is shooting stiff decrease the thickness of the material on the side [late. If the arrow is shooting weak add material to the side plate.

To actually see how stiff a spine you and an arrow can shoot take everything off the side plate except for a piece of masking tape (and you don't have to have that). Shooting that way will tell you the maximum spine that you can shoot from that bow.

Thanks fdp

I used the really thick, not the thin, moleskin as my side plate because I wanted to be able to have some adjustment to my arrows. I figured, start with some adjustment left towards the bow in case I cut my arrow (whichever spine that might have been) too short. That way I could always put on a thinner side plate and still have a tunable rig. I might try a thicker side plate to see what happens but I also don't want to build out too much.

For that matter you can shoot fishing arrow if you wish or that's all you have. That doesn't make it right..or wrong. It's your bow. Personally I shoot my arrows one shaft diameter left of center so if a bow is cut past center I will build it back out. You can make a stiff set up from there. Your shooting #9 lighter than I am. I'm pretty sure a .400 can work. I think a big part of the problem for many is eye balling the string down the shaft. There in is the problem. You can't be sure, one look is spot on next glance it looks to far in and so on. It matters because you get farther than you need from center or inboard which is not good. That will call for different shaft and or cut. Here's the part where "everyone" been doing this since ever. Take your bow square and put it 90* to the string and lay it on edge against the sight window. Find or make a mark where the string is. Nock the arrow your working with and take the square 180* and shim your strike plate so that the shaft is just touching your mark. Bare shaft shooting at a vertical line. On a strike plate I go for a bout an inch weak. Then fletch with small feathers.

Now rotate the square 180

Found an error in my arrow setup description. These Beman ICS Hunter 400's were pretty old. I used to shoot them out of a Trad Tech Titan 2 with longbow limbs. I forgot that I put 50 grain aluminum inserts in them. Oops. I went to weigh them this morning and came up with 570.6 grains, I was like, "That can't be right." Checked the insert and sure enough a 50 grain aluminum insert. So, that makes me think I could probably get the 500's to fly if I tweak the side plate on my shelf...

Ok, a little update and hopefully a response or two.

I've received my Omega Native. 60" 42#@29" are the specs. I am drawing it right at 29". I started off with some full length Gold Tip Velocity 400s, 32", with a standard aluminum insert, 250 grain field point. Weak arrow indication, as I would have suspected. I then began cutting it down 1/4" at a time until I got to 29" throat of the nock to back of point. Still getting a weak arrow indication. Not at all what I suspected.This is all bare shafting mind you. Then I noticed a little wear on the outer edge of my shelf. Like the left side of my shelf. I put some lipstick on the shelf edge and shot a few arrows. The arrows are picking up lipstick about 12" in front of the nock on the lower right side of the arrows. I rechecked with long and short bare shafts and all of them are hitting the edge of the shelf. Nock point is 1/2-3/4" above 90 degrees. I'm guessing that some of you will tell me that I am too stiff at a 400 spine. Is that what the shelf wear means? Should I get some 500s and try them? I feel like I have a pretty consistent release. My arrows are grouping well at 15 yards, about the size of a softball.

If you are shooting into 4” at 15 yards, you’re probably wasting your time by not shooting half of your arrows fletched and shooting all of them at a vertical line. Then use a marker to identify the holes in your target face as either fletched or bare. Unless you’re perfectly tuned, you’ll get two groups; one on the line and one off. If you’re stiff, fletched should be on the line and bare off to the left.

I don’t care for such heavy points, and with 125 up front, I need to draw #60 and then some to shoot a 18” 400; my #53-ish collection likes a 500, and a bit under #50, I shoot 600s, but that bow’s not cut past center.

There are obviously typos in that last reply. I am guessing you don't shoot 18" 400.

And I know you don't care for the heavier points, but I am playing with high foc arrows. I shot a deer last year in the humerus with a 65# compound bow and zwickey 135 and got 2" of penetration. I'm not interested in the best case scenario arrow set up. I'm also not hung up on gaps and all that.

The Native is cut to center, but obviously that doesn't factor in side plate material. I'm more concerned with the wear on the side of the shelf and how far forward the arrow is hitting the shelf.

And GF, you never told me your draw length and arrow length. Are you drawing a 53 ish pound bow to its 28" draw weight or shorter?

Instead of buying new arrows at thispoint, and since we are only able to respond based on the description of the dynamic reaction of the arrow, take everything off the sideplate, and shoot i. If the arrows are stiff, then removing the sideplate, and shooting against the hard surface will soften the dynamic reaction. How much is hard to say.

The softball size group means you are executing your shot sequence consistently. That said, you can consistently execute a shot sequence and group arrows that are 30lbs. over or under spined in a softball sized group. The question is where is that group in relation to where you are aiming the arrow.

GF is correct with his reference to a vertical line on the target. Plain and simple if you aim at the line and you shoot right (this is for a right handed shooter) your arrows are reacting weak. If you shoot left, your arrows are reacting stiff. It's just as simple as that.

What about the side of the shelf contact?

It's hard to say. We can' determine at this point exactly how the arrow is behaving dynamically. That's where the vertical line comes in to play. If it is stiff, it will show up in the first 3 shots if you don't start trying to compensate for the point of impact. If they show stiff, then you'll know that is the problem.

If not, then you have look at other things. BUT, you can ONLY correct 1 thing at a time. Trying to correct more than one thing at a time typically never reaches a conclusion.

No, I do not shoot an 18” arrow, so that’s a fat-finger. I’ll let you figure it out.... All weights mentioned are what I end up with off of my fingers.

About the deer you hit with the compound...

There’s no way that even an ancient round-wheel design is not producing at least as much KE as a #65 stickbow of about any variety you care to imagine; and it’s not as if that has ever been considered marginal draw weight for even the least efficient stickbow designs, so it’s not because your bow was too wimpy. I’m going to guess that your arrow was leaning towards very, very light, and now you’re looking to “fix” a penetration issue (which hasn’t happened yet with your longbow) through EFOC...

The thing is.... I know that an awful lot of deer and quite a few Elk have been killed very neatly with stickbows in the #40-#45 bracket using conventional arrows of reasonable all-up mass. But I’ve never once heard anybody claim to have shot through a humerus at that draw weight and I’m pretty skeptical that ANY amount of FOC would be enough to alter that outcome. It’s just not there. And not as if you don’t already know this, but if you feel it necessary to be able to smash through leg bones, you probably ought to stick to firearms or heavy compounds at the least. And I’d probably shy away from COCs at that rate, because that’s like trying to split a log with a filet knife...

Of course, you’ll never hit the humerus unless your shot is too low and farther forward than necessary... so at that rate, maybe a shallow bounce-out is the best possible outcome?

Anyway, that’s getting farther afield about and your question is about tuning...

Yes, you CAN tune a too-stiff shaft by overloading the front end, or you can tune a more pliable shaft if you go low enough on point weight. Tuning is one of those things where it doesn’t really matter HOW you get there, just so long as you DO.

As we established early on in this thread, the spine calculators and/or the good advice from the guys who’ve been doing this professionally for many years will get you Pretty Close. Probably even close enough that an archer of average ability would rarely be able to detect a shift in POI between field points and broadheads. That’s the beauty of fletchings; and let’s not forget that - as far as tuning is concerned - EFOC is just big fletchings by another name.

It sounds to me as if you are shooting well enough that bare-shafting is actually worth your while, and that makes it easy: you’re either hitting that line down the middle - fletchings or no - or you’re not. Adjust accordingly, and you will be tuned For You, no matter what anybody else has to say about it.

My issue is coming from the shelf contact that is happening. Wouldn't it come to reason that if I am getting that kind of contact, it doesn't matter which side of the vertical line my bareshaft is falling? It could be a false reading.

According to the Stu Calculator, a 28" 400 arrow out of a 60# recurve would be entirely too stiff with a 125 grain point @ GF. And according to the same calculator (I put in "generic reflex/deflex longbow" since Omega Native isn't on there), my bow dynamic spine is 39.9# when I factor in the side plate thickness. If I put in the Gold Tip Hunter Black 35/55 (aka 500 spine) with a 250 grain point, 30"(factory full length) long it's dynamic spine is 39.9#. I can also put in the 55/75 (aka 400 spine), 250 grain point, 32" (factory full length), and it dynamically spines at 42.5, so a little stiff. If I factory in a thinner side plate I'm closer.

So, with that said, maybe I'll give 500 spine arrows. I might even get a 600 or two and check them with 125-150 grain tips.

Regardless of what I pick up, if I am hitting the left side of the shelf just above my bow hand, the results are mute because it isn't a true reading. And hence my problem.

This makes zero sense. A 40# bow with a long 600 spine gold tip trad arrow and 150 grain broadhead will weigh 400 grains. It will give you pass throughs on 200# broadside deer

This set-up has filled my frezzer for years.

“ Regardless of what I pick up, if I am hitting the left side of the shelf just above my bow hand, the results are mute because it isn't a true reading. And hence my problem.”

I think your “problem“ might actually be that your reasoning yourself in circles… (Trust me; I’m an expert at that!)

I look at it this way… It seems a pretty safe bet that the arrow is whacking the shelf above your hand because the spine is way off of your requirement. If you get an arrow which is spined much closer to “correctly”, then the shelf-whacking part should go away on its own, and the readings that you get will then become reliable. Or at least a whole lot more reliable…

And FWIW, yep, I need about 165 up front for my Low#60s R/D bow with a 400 series; that brings the dynamic spine requirement in at about #81 and the arrow to around 7.5 GPP, which is probably hotter than necessary; for now I’m set up with 2117s and those are just about 9 GPP. Hoping to achieve the same balance with a tapered Doug Fir, but #80s weren’t that easy to find last time I went looking...

If you WANT to shoot a 32” 400 spine arrow with 250 up front.... have at it.

@deerhunt51 which part doesn't make sense? The Stu Calculator numbers? You can put them in and get the same that I got.

And I don't doubt the lethality of that setup. I don't think there is an issue when perfect arrow placement occurs. I'm more concerned with what happens when crap happens. Animals move, humans make errors, and stuff happens. I'm trying to build a setup that works in all of those scenarios not just a perfectly broadside animal standing perfectly still. Perhaps that isn't your philosophy, and that is ok.

What does not make sense is 3

What does not make sense is 350 grains up front. You say when game moves, no kidding. Why handycap yourself with such a slow arrow? I get 175 fps with the 400 grain arrow and 35# of draw weight. You draw closer to 40# and with a longer power stroke than I, so you will probably be closer to 185 fps with a 400 grain arrow. I assure you that is a lethal combination. As far as shoot placement, thats up to you. You would not need a broadside deer, a qautering away deer would work as well. I never force a shot, only take high percentage shots. I don't think what you are proposing is going to make a poor shot successful.

@deerhunt51 I think I didn’t articulate it well enough, I’m not chasing 350 up front any longer. 250 grains is all. I might even get down to 175 if I really challenge my dogma!

SextonJ, I hear you. I often go as high as 155 grain head and even an aluminum insert brings that close to 175-180 grains total up front. All I was suggesting was if you cannot get what you want, give a 400-450 grain arrow a try. I have killed two Bucks most years with 40# bows and arrows of that weight. Since I only draw 26-27 inches I am drawing less then 40# and getting two holes on big deer. Our bucks average 200#. Both bucks I killed this past fall were pass throughs, one buck was 21 yards and the other was 18 yards. I watched one crash at 29 yards and heard the other crash at just past 100 yards.

"I'm more concerned with what happens when crap happens. Animals move, humans make errors, and stuff happens. I'm trying to build a setup that works in all of those scenarios not just a perfectly broadside animal standing perfectly still."

In that case, I would suggest a rifle. Or a compound. Or at least a stickbow of considerably higher poundage than #40.

As DH51 and about a million other guys have proven ad nauseum, #40 will certainly kill a deer when you hit them in the thoracic cavity ahead of the diaphragm and stay off of the big, hard bones in the process. But there's just NO EFFIN' WAY that an EFOC arrow is going to magically bail your arse out when something really hits the fan. Your #65 compound was packing what, 70 FPE? Your #40 LB is going to max out at about 30.

But what makes this worth doing is the fact that it's NOT EASY; it has to be done Right and it has to be done Well, and you have to take responsibility for it when it goes South.

You might even say that In Archery... there are no Magic Bullets.

GF said it best. Woodsmanship is what I would add. Those bucks I shot this year were long range compared to my average shots over the years. I can and do practice at 30 and even out to 70 yards, that being said, on deer, closer is better. I like less then 20 yards, like 15 and in better.

Deerhunt51 you’re still shooting 11-12.5 gpp with that setup. That mean with 42# of draw weight I’d be shooting a 460-525 grain arrow.

I have some 500s on the way. Needless to say I might have a few 400s to sell soon

Sexton, you're making this waaayyy over complicated.

Identify what you want to do, then someone can help you get there. So far you are all over the place.

Try bare and fletched of the same spine and shoot them at a vertical line. See how they impact, then make the determination from there. The arrow hitting the shelf is likely a spine problem, and for sure a tuning problem.

If the arrow is stiff add weight to it or increase the cebter shot. You can add weight by doing something as simple as wrapping tape around the front of the shaft until the arrow shoots to center. Then take off the tape, and the field point and weigh it. That will tell you exactly how much weight you need. No doubt, no debate, no disputing it.

If the arrows are too stiff for what you want to go then they are simply too stiff.

You can make ANY bow shoot ANY arrow you want to shoot. You just have to manipulate the dynamic reaction of the arrow using one of several different methods.

Tuning bows and arrows to shoot well isn't new. But dang it sure seems that way sometimes.

To Frank's point. I have a longbow with a setup for whitetails. The bow is of simular design to an Omega. Mine is 50 at 29 and I shoot .620's out of it with 285 grains up front. I use a fat string and built the strike plate out some.

Out of that same rig I killed some moose and elk, but I used a .400 with 360 grains up front.

Bowmania

Thank You Todd.

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